Bruce,
Could you please advise what features a panel for a home would require? I
am familiar with GFCI breakers, but have heard that there are other
requirements in addition. I'm already familiar with ground rods and how
they're to be installed, just confused on newer breaker configurations.

In keeping with my other panels, I'll likely purchase a Square D, 200 amp
panel, with a main breaker. Any advice?

Thanks,

Harold

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:17:12 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Bruce,
Could you please advise what features a panel for a home would require? I
am familiar with GFCI breakers, but have heard that there are other
requirements in addition. I'm already familiar with ground rods and how
they're to be installed, just confused on newer breaker configurations.

In keeping with my other panels, I'll likely purchase a Square D, 200 amp
panel, with a main breaker. Any advice?

Thanks,

Harold

That's what I use. Get the QO series, not the homeowners'.

Pete Keillor

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
Bruce,
Could you please advise what features a panel for a home would require? I
am familiar with GFCI breakers, but have heard that there are other
requirements in addition. I'm already familiar with ground rods and
how
they're to be installed, just confused on newer breaker configurations.

In keeping with my other panels, I'll likely purchase a Square D, 200 amp
panel, with a main breaker. Any advice?

It may not be an issue for you but it seems that VFDs don't like to be run
from circuits fed by GFCI breakers. At least it sure didn't work for me.
Just thought I'd mention it in case you plan to power any of your tools with
a VFD.

If you are looking for a 60 amp Square D QO GFCI breaker, I can make you a
good deal on one that's only been tripped a couple of times g.

Mike

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:17:12 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Bruce,
Could you please advise what features a panel for a home would require? I
am familiar with GFCI breakers, but have heard that there are other
requirements in addition. I'm already familiar with ground rods and how
they're to be installed, just confused on newer breaker configurations.

In keeping with my other panels, I'll likely purchase a Square D, 200 amp
panel, with a main breaker. Any advice?

Egad, that's a 100,000 word answer begging for the time to type it
all out (think "War and Peace"...) but I'll hit the highlights.

First, SquareD makes good equipment - but it's all based on brand-
locked proprietary designs, which can be a problem in the future if
they go under or stop making the proprietary parts. It happens - try
finding an XO breaker - or Zinsco Q, or Pushmatic, or...

The QO line is bulletproof - where they try to fool you is with the
Homeline series, it LOOKS like a standard form 1" wide "Industrial
Interchange" breaker, but there are subtle differences in the busses
that make other brands not fit in their panel. (Without modifying the
busses - and cutting into the tin-plated aluminum without replacing
the plating is a recipe for a corrosion disaster in a few years...)

If you want to future-proof, use panels that take either the
Cutler-Hammer/Challenger C-series or Crouse-Hinds/Murray/Siemens MP-
series breakers. They will interchange with each other, and (with
exceptions) GE 'Thick' and SquareD Homeline breakers will fit in them.

The GE panels are good, but they have an odd T-type buss for their
Thin breakers to plug in on, so other brands don't always fit.

Whatever panels you get, insist on all Copper Bussing - you have to
read the labels, they can tin plate the copper. I've seen too many
troubles with aluminum buss going bad to EVER install it willingly.
(Just had to repair a melted aluminum buss in a "Six-Pack" condo
Meter-Main service last week.)

And you can never go too big - if your architect insists that a 125A
panel is plenty, put in a 200A anyway. And the 400A (some rated 325A
continuous) residential services are gaining wider use, you don't need
a standing section anymore - but you do need a wide chunk of wall.
They come with a 200A Main and a 30 to 42-space distribution section
for the house, and a space for mounting a second 200A Main Breaker to
feed another panel at your shop remotely.

For grounding, again, too much is just about right. Bring up a UFER
ground from the foundation steel, and have all the utilities hit the
house in the same area so you can bond the cold water, telephone, CATV
and the gas to a common grounding point.

PLAN AHEAD.

Inside the house insist on running flex or EMT conduit for the
wiring - at least on the panel home runs and the kitchen circuits,
anywhere that things might need to be changed later and you don't have
attic access. With Romex the initial construction costs are far
lower, but every change or addition is a headache - cut open the
walls, patch and paint. With conduit, adding an extra copier circuit
in the back bedroom that just turned into the Home Office is a lot
easier.

Put ceiling fan rated boxes in /every/ room, wired with 2 hots for
fan and light, or make other provisions for overhead lighting power.
Even if you don't use them now a simple canopy blank (painted over)
makes them disappear, and when you do want to add it's not a big
production to hang a fan or fixture. This is especially critical
where you don't have attic access, including out on the big beam of
the Living Room cathedral ceiling. (Easy to do during construction, a
stone cold PITA later.)

For feeding the bedroom circuits in new construction they insist on
an Arc-Fault breaker that works like a ground-fault but looks for bad
outlets and cords and Romex staple-pinches in the walls. I think it's
a gimmick, but the theory is sound. Plan on spending extra for a few
fancy breakers.

Do you like putting up "Holiday Lights"? Plan where the start
points will be, and place several outlets (with Wet-in-use rated
bubble covers) under the eaves, behind the chimney, on the dormer
window poke-outs... A two-pole timer in the garage or wall switch in
the entry hall, and it's all under control.

Each bathroom gets it's own 20A circuit and local GFCI receptacle.
I've split them up in a few 3-bathroom houses where they have 3
teenage girls all trying to get ready for school (with hair-dryers) at
the same time each morning, and this simply doesn't work with one
common GFCI circuit looped to all the bathrooms...

More later... (WORK - a four letter word.)

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

My thanks to Harold and Bruce - this is timely advice for me.
Jim


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:17:12 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Bruce,
Could you please advise what features a panel for a home would require? I
am familiar with GFCI breakers, but have heard that there are other
requirements in addition. I'm already familiar with ground rods and
how
they're to be installed, just confused on newer breaker configurations.

In keeping with my other panels, I'll likely purchase a Square D, 200 amp
panel, with a main breaker. Any advice?

Egad, that's a 100,000 word answer begging for the time to type it
all out (think "War and Peace"...) but I'll hit the highlights.


-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:03:34 -0600, "Mike Henry"
wrote:

If you are looking for a 60 amp Square D QO GFCI breaker, I can make you a
good deal on one that's only been tripped a couple of times g.

Sell it to someone with an electric hot tub and a SquareD QO panel
feeding it. That's the only practical use for one - but check the
wire gauge and load charts first, they usually take a 50.

If you are looking for a GFCI breaker for equipment protection
against an internal fault you want one with a 30ma trip, not the 3ma
trip for a "Class A" personnel protection ratings.

30ma is enough to catch a grounded motor with minimal nuisance
trips, as long as people aren't going to be sticking their finger
inside... I know Siemens/Murray makes them, not sure about SquareD.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:17:12 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Bruce,
Could you please advise what features a panel for a home would require?
I
am familiar with GFCI breakers, but have heard that there are other
requirements in addition. I'm already familiar with ground rods and
how
they're to be installed, just confused on newer breaker configurations.

In keeping with my other panels, I'll likely purchase a Square D, 200 amp
panel, with a main breaker. Any advice?

Egad, that's a 100,000 word answer begging for the time to type it
all out (think "War and Peace"...) but I'll hit the highlights.

Which you did very nicely, and I thank you. I really had only one
question, but didn't know how to address if properly, due in part to not
knowing what it is that I didn't know. :-) I'll comment on that below.

First, SquareD makes good equipment - but it's all based on brand-
locked proprietary designs, which can be a problem in the future if
they go under or stop making the proprietary parts. It happens - try
finding an XO breaker - or Zinsco Q, or Pushmatic, or...

I fully understand. Luckily, I have always used only QO panels, so I
haven't
had the problems you speak of. Everything's cool until they make changes
in the QO, the way it looks to me.

The QO line is bulletproof - where they try to fool you is with the
Homeline series, it LOOKS like a standard form 1" wide "Industrial
Interchange" breaker, but there are subtle differences in the busses
that make other brands not fit in their panel. (Without modifying the
busses - and cutting into the tin-plated aluminum without replacing
the plating is a recipe for a corrosion disaster in a few years...)

If you want to future-proof, use panels that take either the
Cutler-Hammer/Challenger C-series or Crouse-Hinds/Murray/Siemens MP-
series breakers. They will interchange with each other, and (with
exceptions) GE 'Thick' and SquareD Homeline breakers will fit in them.

The concept is sound, but once I start mixing panels, I'll just widen the
number of variables I must address. I already have two square D panels
installed
in the shop, one single phase, one three phase. I'd like to insure that I
don't have to worry about which type breaker to buy, so I'll stick to what,
to me, is normal, a QO panel. Until recently, I had a great connection
for buying at
the wholesale level, so cost wasn't a big issue. Home Depot is likely my
future source now.

snip---
And you can never go too big - if your architect insists that a 125A
panel is plenty, put in a 200A anyway. And the 400A (some rated 325A
continuous) residential services are gaining wider use, you don't need
a standing section anymore - but you do need a wide chunk of wall.
They come with a 200A Main and a 30 to 42-space distribution section
for the house, and a space for mounting a second 200A Main Breaker to
feed another panel at your shop remotely.

Chuckle! Architect? You're lookin' at 'im! g We installed the meter
base on the shop a few years ago and have 2" conduit already stubbed towards
the house. The meter base provides for (2) 200 amp panels.

Space is no issue. The entire basement (approximately 1,000 ft) is for
storage and mechanical use. There's more than enough room to mount any
panel I choose, along with the housings for the low voltage control lighting
system we're going to use.

There are no unreasonable loads expected for the house, not so much as even
light machine use. The shop addresses all my power requirements in that
regard, so all we have to worry about is typical residential power demands,
electric water heating, dryer and stove. It's pretty straight forward.
We live in the country, no cable TV, no natural gas. We have a well and
septic system.

For grounding, again, too much is just about right. Bring up a UFER
ground from the foundation steel, and have all the utilities hit the
house in the same area so you can bond the cold water, telephone, CATV
and the gas to a common grounding point.

By its nature, the steel is not tied in this construction, nor can it be.
Therefore, I will install the necessary ground rods and wire accordingly. We
had to deal with the same issues with the shop, so I'm not unfamiliar with
the requirements. Washington State oversees electrical inspections, so
we're assured of compliance.

PLAN AHEAD.

Inside the house insist on running flex or EMT conduit for the
wiring - at least on the panel home runs and the kitchen circuits,
anywhere that things might need to be changed later and you don't have
attic access. With Romex the initial construction costs are far
lower, but every change or addition is a headache - cut open the
walls, patch and paint. With conduit, adding an extra copier circuit
in the back bedroom that just turned into the Home Office is a lot
easier.

Any electrical in exterior walls is already installed in conduit, along with
steel boxes (provided with proper grounding), and can't be altered. The
house isn't conventional construction. Everything in the exterior walls is
already cast in concrete, including some of the plumbing. I've had to
plan from day one to insure that nothing was left out. The shop was built
the same way.


For feeding the bedroom circuits in new construction they insist on
an Arc-Fault breaker that works like a ground-fault but looks for bad
outlets and cords and Romex staple-pinches in the walls. I think it's
a gimmick, but the theory is sound. Plan on spending extra for a few
fancy breakers.

This is exactly what my question was, but I couldn't remember what the
change was so I was unable to address my question pointedly. I was
afraid that the panel itself would have to meet some particular requirement,
not understanding that a particular breaker addresses the issue.

I thoroughly appreciate the huge number of tips you've provided. Many of
them aren't of concern to me, but it's apparent your insight has already
paid dividends for at least one other person.

Thanks for your time, Bruce. It's very much appreciated.

Harold

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:03:34 -0600, "Mike Henry"
wrote:

If you are looking for a 60 amp Square D QO GFCI breaker, I can make you
a
good deal on one that's only been tripped a couple of times g.

Sell it to someone with an electric hot tub and a SquareD QO panel
feeding it. That's the only practical use for one - but check the
wire gauge and load charts first, they usually take a 50.

If you are looking for a GFCI breaker for equipment protection
against an internal fault you want one with a 30ma trip, not the 3ma
trip for a "Class A" personnel protection ratings.

30ma is enough to catch a grounded motor with minimal nuisance
trips, as long as people aren't going to be sticking their finger
inside... I know Siemens/Murray makes them, not sure about SquareD.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Thanks Bruce. Now that you mention it, I believe that Square D did
recommend the 30 ma trip breaker for this application when I'd called about
the frequent tripping.. Its been several years and I'd completely forgotten
about that.