Does anyone use moradic acid for cleaning steel? I am starting to weld
horseshoes, but I have to clean them up from rust and anything else. I have
been using a coarse wire wheel and it takes about 3 -4 minutes for one to
do. I have herd from others that moradic acid (I hope I'm spelling and
saying it right) cleans them by letting them soak.. If this is right, what
is the ratio to use it as? Water mix. And how long to soak or drop in and
out.

Don D.

It is spelled muriatic acid. It is available on the swimming pool chemical
shelf at the big box stores.

Whenever I have used it I have just thrown the piece into it without
diluting it, left it overnight, but this might not be the right way to use
it - I wasn't doing anything too important...

"Don D." wrote in message
news:P1qWd.95491$bu.83532@fed1read06...
Does anyone use moradic acid for cleaning steel? I am starting to weld
horseshoes, but I have to clean them up from rust and anything else. I
have been using a coarse wire wheel and it takes about 3 -4 minutes for
one to do. I have herd from others that moradic acid (I hope I'm spelling
and saying it right) cleans them by letting them soak.. If this is right,
what is the ratio to use it as? Water mix. And how long to soak or drop in
and out.

Don D.

Um, muriatic? Aka hydrochloric (typically 34.55% or something)?

Yeah, that works just fine. Rinse and oil quickly, and don't keep or use
near tools.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Don D." wrote in message
news:P1qWd.95491$bu.83532@fed1read06...
Does anyone use moradic acid for cleaning steel? I am starting to weld
horseshoes, but I have to clean them up from rust and anything else. I
have
been using a coarse wire wheel and it takes about 3 -4 minutes for one to
do. I have herd from others that moradic acid (I hope I'm spelling and
saying it right) cleans them by letting them soak.. If this is right, what
is the ratio to use it as? Water mix. And how long to soak or drop in and
out.

Don D.

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
Um, muriatic? Aka hydrochloric (typically 34.55% or something)?

Yeah, that works just fine. Rinse and oil quickly, and don't keep or use
near tools.

Tim

Just to emphasize:

DON'T soak it overnight.

Quick dip, followed by an aggressive rinse.

--
Jeff R.

"Jeff R" wrote in message
...

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
Um, muriatic? Aka hydrochloric (typically 34.55% or something)?

Yeah, that works just fine. Rinse and oil quickly, and don't keep or use
near tools.

Tim

Just to emphasize:

DON'T soak it overnight.

Quick dip, followed by an aggressive rinse.

Wear safety goggles, rubber gloves and do it outside with the acid downwind
from you. Neutralize with bicarbonate of soda.

I have three boxes of horseshoes that have been rained on and rust caked up
pretty heavy I was thinking of throwing a few in a 5 gal. bucket over night
or 24 hr. then clean up with water.

..............I just called one of the people that clean horseshoes for art
work and he said he does a 25/75 ratio 25% acid and leave it over night. I
may try that out and clean off in another 5 gal. of water.

Don D.

"Lawrence L'Hote" wrote in message
news:udrWd.34595$Ze3.16072@attbi_s51...

"Jeff R" wrote in message
...

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
Um, muriatic? Aka hydrochloric (typically 34.55% or something)?

Yeah, that works just fine. Rinse and oil quickly, and don't keep or
use
near tools.

Tim

Just to emphasize:

DON'T soak it overnight.

Quick dip, followed by an aggressive rinse.

Wear safety goggles, rubber gloves and do it outside with the acid
downwind from you. Neutralize with bicarbonate of soda.

"Don D." wrote in message
news:%BrWd.95494$bu.19033@fed1read06...
I have three boxes of horseshoes that have been rained on and rust caked
up
pretty heavy I was thinking of throwing a few in a 5 gal. bucket over
night
or 24 hr. then clean up with water.

.............I just called one of the people that clean horseshoes for art
work and he said he does a 25/75 ratio 25% acid and leave it over night. I
may try that out and clean off in another 5 gal. of water.

Don D.

Well, OK Don, so long as they're only decorative.
An overnight soak will do wicked things structurally.
I wouldn't do it to machine parts or tools.

--
Jeff R.

"Don D." wrote in message
news:P1qWd.95491$bu.83532@fed1read06...
Does anyone use moradic acid for cleaning steel? I am starting to weld
horseshoes, but I have to clean them up from rust and anything else. I
have been using a coarse wire wheel and it takes about 3 -4 minutes for
one to do. I have herd from others that moradic acid (I hope I'm spelling
and saying it right) cleans them by letting them soak.. If this is right,
what is the ratio to use it as? Water mix. And how long to soak or drop in
and out.

Don D.


Muriatic acid. Cheap stuff. Gives of strong chlorine fumes. Some of the
nastiest stuff known to man. Burns skin in an instant. Very painful if you
get it on flesh. Will blind you. If you are sensitive to it, it will cause
you respiratory distress, or messed up sinuses and throat for weeks. It
will eat anything it gets on ...... concrete ........ grass .........
painted surfaces ......... clothes ......... you name it, muriatic acid eats
it.

TREAT IT WITH RESPECT! IT WILL KICK YOUR ASS IF YOU ARE NOT CAREFUL!

Steve

Vinegar & Salt works well too.

Leave in overnight or as long as needed.

Saturate the vinegar with salt (so much so that the vinegar can't hold any
more salt)

-Tom

"Don D." wrote in message
news:P1qWd.95491$bu.83532@fed1read06...
Does anyone use moradic acid for cleaning steel? I am starting to weld
horseshoes, but I have to clean them up from rust and anything else. I
have
been using a coarse wire wheel and it takes about 3 -4 minutes for one to
do. I have herd from others that moradic acid (I hope I'm spelling and
saying it right) cleans them by letting them soak.. If this is right, what
is the ratio to use it as? Water mix. And how long to soak or drop in and
out.

Don D.

Muriatic acid. Cheap stuff. Gives of strong chlorine fumes. Some of the
nastiest stuff known to man. Burns skin in an instant.
CLIP

I must be super human... I worked with teh stuff for years and never had a
problem with my skin... I used to hold stuff and pour the acid over the
piece outdoors where I could rinse it off with a hose...

Never burned my skin unless I had a cut or something and then it simply woke
me up real fast!

you want dangerous stuff for your health? Take a look at Hydroflouric (sp?)
acid from what I hear...
--


Joe - V#8013 - '86 VN750 - joe @ yunx .com
Northern, NJ
Ride a Motorcycle? Ask me about "The Ride"
http://www.youthelate.com/the_ride.htm

Born once - Die twice. Born twice - Die only once. Your choice...

Have unwanted music CDs or DVDs of any type? I can use them for our
charity. eMail me privately for details. Donation receipts available.

Know someone with a motorcycle in the NY Metro area?
http://host.mynocdns.com/mailman/lis...rides_yunx.com

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:44:55 GMT, the inscrutable "Emmo"
spake:

It is spelled muriatic acid. It is available on the swimming pool chemical
shelf at the big box stores.

It's cheap, too. I picked up a gallon last week at Farmer's Supply
(Southern Oregon) for $3.49.


================================================== ========
Save the ||| http://diversify.com
Endangered SKEETS! ||| Web Application Programming
================================================== ========

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:GNrWd.159$qf7.105@fed1read03...
Muriatic acid. Cheap stuff. Gives of strong chlorine fumes. Some of the
nastiest stuff known to man.

Er... hydrogen chloride fumes. Hydrochloric acid is HCl gas dissolved in
water. It does evaporate a little, leading to a white cloud on opening the
bottle, this is due to the gas grabbing moisture in the air forming an
aerosol of saturated acid, kinda interesting.

Combination with oxidizers such as manganese dioxide will oxidize the
hydrogen, releasing chlorine gas. Ammonia and bleach will, too. But this
isn't a concern with iron oxides or metal.

Speaking of which, leaving in overnight will certainly remove a small amount
of metal, at least reducing size and tolerances, and at worst contaminating
the piece with hydrogen and chlorides, leading to weakness and corrosion.
Supposedly a bake at 800F or so will clean that up...

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Joe wrote:

Muriatic acid. Cheap stuff. Gives of strong chlorine fumes. Some of the
nastiest stuff known to man. Burns skin in an instant.

Phosphoric acid is good too, it doesn't attack the metal as fast, so you can
leave it in longer to get the stubborn bits off. Naval jelly contains it.

Alternatively, electrolytic rust removal is probably the best method of all,
but a bit more complex.

You have to protect the fresh metal surface immediately after cleaning with
all these methods, including muriatic/hydrochloric acid.

Incidently hydrochloric acid is also sold as "spirits of salt", at least
here in the UK.

Oh, and remember:

Benny Wilson's dick is flaccid,
Never have a son or daughter:
He added water to the acid
'Stead of acid to the water.


.... that's the polite version


you want dangerous stuff for your health? Take a look at Hydroflouric (sp?)
acid from what I hear...


Hydrofluoric acid. Don't go near it.

It's highly poisonous as well as ultra-corrosive, used to etch glass.

It can get absorbed through the skin and the lungs, and if you get too much
in your system then you will die - it usually takes many hours to kill you,
and it is an unpleasant way to go, especially at the end. Neutralising the
acid does little, and the calcium ion antidote only works for small doses.

The only known-successful treatment for large-scale acute percutaneous HF
poisoning (getting too much HF on the skin) is emergency amputation.

Worse, it only works if you are lucky enough to have only amputatable parts
of the body exposed, a tourniquet is immediately applied and not ever
loosened, and you get treatment in a very short time.

Even worse still, there are only a very few doctors in the world expert
enough to be confident and willing to do the amputation - most ordinary
doctors and medics will not even start to consider it before the poisoning
is irreversible.

Especially in the US, they would likely be more worried about being sued for
cutting your leg of unnecessarily than saving your life.



Have I scared you enough yet?

The really nasty thing is, it numbs the affected parts, so you may not
realise you have been burned/poisoned until it is too late.

I'm told it feels like the skin is just wet, or simply slightly sweaty.

--
Peter Fairbrother

Peter Fairbrother wrote:
Joe wrote:

SNIPPED

Hydrofluoric acid. Don't go near it.

It's highly poisonous as well as ultra-corrosive, used to etch glass.

It can get absorbed through the skin and the lungs, and if you get too much
in your system then you will die - it usually takes many hours to kill you,
and it is an unpleasant way to go, especially at the end. Neutralising the
acid does little, and the calcium ion antidote only works for small doses.

SNIPPED


Have I scared you enough yet?


Not only did that scare me but you made me realize that I was probably
pretty lucky to escape unscathed 50 or so years ago when as a youngster
I used to help out at my dad's jewelry manufacturing plant in San
Francisco. (OSHA wasn't invented yet.)

We used hydroflouric acid every day. We had a few pint sized jars of the
stuff sitting on a shelf behing a wash sink. The jars were made of a
white wax molded over a fibre base and had lift off wax lids.

We used the stuff when making platinum jewelry by lost wax casting. The
melting temperature of platinum is so high that it glassified the
investment "plaster" it contacted. After we broke up and washed off most
of the investment the castings were covered with a layer of "glass"
about twenty thousandths thick. Ploppiug those pieces in a hydroflouric
acid pot for a few hours disolved off that glassy stuff without doing
any damage to the platinum.

I do remember being warned to be ultra careful with that acid, and still
have memories of erie white fumes wafting up out of those acid pots
whenever I lifted a lid off one of them.

Thanks for the mammaries,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

"Don D." wrote in message
news:%BrWd.95494$bu.19033@fed1read06...
| I have three boxes of horseshoes that have been rained on and rust caked
up
| pretty heavy I was thinking of throwing a few in a 5 gal. bucket over
night
| or 24 hr. then clean up with water.
|
| .............I just called one of the people that clean horseshoes for art
| work and he said he does a 25/75 ratio 25% acid and leave it over night. I
| may try that out and clean off in another 5 gal. of water.

We use this trick at work for alodining aluminum parts that will work
fine for you in this application. Get a good quality zip lock back and fill
it with water to check for leaks. If none, drain the water and put what
parts fit decently in the bag. Add liquid and close up to get the air out.
Roll the bag around to get liquid all over your part. The neat thing is
that if you do it right, a mere few ounces will do a part that takes a
gallon bag or larger.
Drain into a suitable container then rinse the part in the bag. Drain
again and remove your part. Rinse one more time or as you see fit.

Oxylic Acid usually comes in powder for and diluted in water is a
great rust remover and won't hurt the metal AND phosphoric is great
for killing rust and phosphorizes the metal so rusting isn't a problem
with short term exposure to moisture plus can be painted over...this
is the active ingredient in Marine Jelly and pre paint prep for body
shops.


On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 00:34:26 GMT, "Joe"
wrote:

Muriatic acid. Cheap stuff. Gives of strong chlorine fumes. Some of the
nastiest stuff known to man. Burns skin in an instant.
CLIP

I must be super human... I worked with teh stuff for years and never had a
problem with my skin... I used to hold stuff and pour the acid over the
piece outdoors where I could rinse it off with a hose...

Never burned my skin unless I had a cut or something and then it simply woke
me up real fast!

you want dangerous stuff for your health? Take a look at Hydroflouric (sp?)
acid from what I hear...

Hydrofluoric acid. Don't go near it.

*** BUNCH OF REALLY SCARY STUFF CLIPPED ***

Jeez... I'm the one who said to be scared of the stuff becuase I used to
use it often! Had I known it was THAT bad, I'd have gotten rid of it much
faster...

If I remember correctly, it came as the main active ingredient in spoked
wheel cleaner when I owned an auto detailing operation...

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
http://www.autodrill.com
http://www.multi-drill.com

V8013

Know someone with a motorcycle in the NY Metro area?
http://host.mynocdns.com/mailman/lis...rides_yunx.com

Some years back, a fellow who sold cleaning agents for car washes was
mixing up a batch of his super-duper wheel cleaner. He had a small, hole
in the wall shop, and most of the time it was just him and a part time
book keeper. She came back after lunch and found him behind the
building, naked, dousing himself with a hose. He told her to call an
ambulance, and then he collapsed. He was dead the next day.

Somehow he had overfilled a mixing tub and some fairly strong HF
solution splashed all over him. Before he could rinse it off, enough of
it was absorbed through his skin to do him in.

About a month later, two brothers who sold chemicals to local labs and
colleges were moving stock up a flight of stairs. One of them dropped a
bottle of strong HF on the concrete landing and it cracked enough to
spill a good amount. Within a few minutes, one of them was dead from the
fumes, and the other spend two weeks in the hospital.

Yes, HF is nasty, nasty stuff.

Joe wrote:

Hydrofluoric acid. Don't go near it.


*** BUNCH OF REALLY SCARY STUFF CLIPPED ***

Jeez... I'm the one who said to be scared of the stuff becuase I used to
use it often! Had I known it was THAT bad, I'd have gotten rid of it much
faster...

If I remember correctly, it came as the main active ingredient in spoked
wheel cleaner when I owned an auto detailing operation...

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
http://www.autodrill.com
http://www.multi-drill.com

V8013

Know someone with a motorcycle in the NY Metro area?
http://host.mynocdns.com/mailman/lis...rides_yunx.com

"Joe" wrote in message
news:mesWd.43279$ya6.18692@trndny01...
Muriatic acid. Cheap stuff. Gives of strong chlorine fumes. Some of
the
nastiest stuff known to man. Burns skin in an instant.
CLIP

I must be super human... I worked with teh stuff for years and never had
a
problem with my skin... I used to hold stuff and pour the acid over the
piece outdoors where I could rinse it off with a hose...

Never burned my skin unless I had a cut or something and then it simply
woke
me up real fast!

you want dangerous stuff for your health? Take a look at Hydroflouric
(sp?)
acid from what I hear...

You can add to the list nitric acid, which isn't forgiving of skin contact
in the least. It can remove the surface of your eye faster than you can
get it rinsed out. (Don't ask).

Actually, hydrochloric acid is relatively forgiving where skin is concerned.
Should you happen to get it on you, as long as it isn't permitted to remain,
it's no big deal. I'm speaking of skin that is relatively tough, hands,
maybe lower arms. The only time I experienced any discomfort from
hydrochloric (aside from breathing the fumes) was when I washed some brick
with a dilute solution, some of which ran down my arms and remained for some
time. I used it in the precious metal refining field for about 23 years
with no incidents to report.

A good choice for killing rust is phosphoric acid, which does not attack the
base metal, unlike hydrochloric. Assuming parts are allowed to soak over
night (with hydrochloric), damage can be done to them. It has no reason to
stop working until it's exhausted, so it dissolves the base metal right
along with the rust, usually with considerable pitting in specific areas.

Harold

tbone wrote:

Oxylic Acid

Is about half as poisonous as cyanide.



--
Peter Fairbrother

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:22:01 -0700, "TT" wrote:

Vinegar & Salt works well too.

Leave in overnight or as long as needed.

Saturate the vinegar with salt (so much so that the vinegar can't hold any
more salt)

-Tom

"Don D." wrote in message
news:P1qWd.95491$bu.83532@fed1read06...
Does anyone use moradic acid for cleaning steel? I am starting to weld
horseshoes, but I have to clean them up from rust and anything else. I
have
been using a coarse wire wheel and it takes about 3 -4 minutes for one to
do. I have herd from others that moradic acid (I hope I'm spelling and
saying it right) cleans them by letting them soak.. If this is right, what
is the ratio to use it as? Water mix. And how long to soak or drop in and
out.

It's muriatic acid, a commercial grade of hydrochloric acid. Muriatic
works faster, salt & vinegar is safer in that it won't eat the
workpiece after the rust is gone. I use muriatic diluted with water
about 50:50 and keep an eye on it.

BTW, I've tried acetic acid (with salt) at strengths greater than
that of vinegar up to 28%. I didn't see any benefit of doing so.
It just stinks more.

Peter Fairbrother wrote:

tbone wrote:

Oxylic Acid

Is about half as poisonous as cyanide.

Oxalic ..

Wow - watch out - that stuff is hot stuff. It eats skin nicely.
use the baking soda instantly and then water. If you mix water -
remember ACID into Water - slowly. Do it abcd.t(o)..Wxyz

Baking soda must be used to kill off the fast acting ions. It will eat metal also.
It cleans and does good work in a lot of stuff. Just be careful.

You might be able to get a small amount HCL - at places like KMART garden and pool area.

Martin

Emmo wrote:

It is spelled muriatic acid. It is available on the swimming pool chemical
shelf at the big box stores.

Whenever I have used it I have just thrown the piece into it without
diluting it, left it overnight, but this might not be the right way to use
it - I wasn't doing anything too important...

"Don D." wrote in message
news:P1qWd.95491$bu.83532@fed1read06...

Does anyone use moradic acid for cleaning steel? I am starting to weld
horseshoes, but I have to clean them up from rust and anything else. I
have been using a coarse wire wheel and it takes about 3 -4 minutes for
one to do. I have herd from others that moradic acid (I hope I'm spelling
and saying it right) cleans them by letting them soak.. If this is right,
what is the ratio to use it as? Water mix. And how long to soak or drop in
and out.

Don D.






--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Peter Fairbrother wrote:

Joe wrote:


SNIPPED


Hydrofluoric acid. Don't go near it.

It's highly poisonous as well as ultra-corrosive, used to etch glass.

It can get absorbed through the skin and the lungs, and if you get too
much
in your system then you will die - it usually takes many hours to kill
you,
and it is an unpleasant way to go, especially at the end. Neutralising
the
acid does little, and the calcium ion antidote only works for small
doses.

SNIPPED


Have I scared you enough yet?


Not only did that scare me but you made me realize that I was probably
pretty lucky to escape unscathed 50 or so years ago when as a youngster
I used to help out at my dad's jewelry manufacturing plant in San
Francisco. (OSHA wasn't invented yet.)

We used hydroflouric acid every day. We had a few pint sized jars of the
stuff sitting on a shelf behing a wash sink. The jars were made of a
white wax molded over a fibre base and had lift off wax lids.

We used the stuff when making platinum jewelry by lost wax casting. The
melting temperature of platinum is so high that it glassified the
investment "plaster" it contacted. After we broke up and washed off most
of the investment the castings were covered with a layer of "glass"
about twenty thousandths thick. Ploppiug those pieces in a hydroflouric
acid pot for a few hours disolved off that glassy stuff without doing
any damage to the platinum.

I do remember being warned to be ultra careful with that acid, and still
have memories of erie white fumes wafting up out of those acid pots
whenever I lifted a lid off one of them.

Thanks for the mammaries,

Jeff

That stuff will dissolve the finger and arm joints! - Many a Semiconductor type
has rough or scratchy joints. A bit painful. Glad I heard and read the docs
long before the hasmat stuff became popular or mandatory.

It is used to dissolve glass or silicon.. And other uses.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:04:41 -0700, "Don D."
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email


You are fate muriatic acid.
BUT
check out "electrolytic derusting".

or start here
http://www.woodmangler.com/Derusting...derusting.html

Does anyone use moradic acid for cleaning steel? I am starting to weld
horseshoes, but I have to clean them up from rust and anything else. I have
been using a coarse wire wheel and it takes about 3 -4 minutes for one to
do. I have herd from others that moradic acid (I hope I'm spelling and
saying it right) cleans them by letting them soak.. If this is right, what
is the ratio to use it as? Water mix. And how long to soak or drop in and
out.

Don D.

"carl mciver" wrote in message
ink.net...
We use this trick at work for alodining aluminum parts

I don't know much about alodine/yne, but HCl is only going to etch Al, quite
vigorously, releasing hydrogen gas. A 1/4 dilution will slow it but not too
much AFAIK.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Fun stuff, eh? :-o
Interesting tidbit: although fluorine is the most active cation,
hydrofluoric acid is not the strongest acid, because though the gas is quite
soluble in water, it doesn't fully ionize (contrast to HCl or HBr). That
prize goes to a flurosulfuric acid, I think?

While we're on the morbid topic of poisons, what do you know of the dangers
of nickel carbonyl?

Which reminds me, what's the most dangerous, in terms of LD50 quantity,
non-biological (i.e., not a virus or something) chemical? Anyone? I know
Ni(CO)5 is up there, with HgCl(2) too. Anything else?

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message
...
Hydrofluoric acid. Don't go near it.

It's highly poisonous as well as ultra-corrosive, used to etch glass.

It can get absorbed through the skin and the lungs, and if you get too
much
in your system then you will die - it usually takes many hours to kill
you,
and it is an unpleasant way to go, especially at the end. Neutralising the
acid does little, and the calcium ion antidote only works for small doses.

The only known-successful treatment for large-scale acute percutaneous HF
poisoning (getting too much HF on the skin) is emergency amputation.

Worse, it only works if you are lucky enough to have only amputatable
parts
of the body exposed, a tourniquet is immediately applied and not ever
loosened, and you get treatment in a very short time.

Even worse still, there are only a very few doctors in the world expert
enough to be confident and willing to do the amputation - most ordinary
doctors and medics will not even start to consider it before the poisoning
is irreversible.

Especially in the US, they would likely be more worried about being sued
for
cutting your leg of unnecessarily than saving your life.



Have I scared you enough yet?

The really nasty thing is, it numbs the affected parts, so you may not
realise you have been burned/poisoned until it is too late.

I'm told it feels like the skin is just wet, or simply slightly sweaty.

--
Peter Fairbrother

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
om...
Wow - watch out - that stuff is hot stuff. It eats skin nicely.
use the baking soda instantly and then water. If you mix water -
remember ACID into Water - slowly. Do it abcd.t(o)..Wxyz

Not a problem with HCl, the solution isn't particularly active with water.
Sulfuric, however, is quite a water magnet and should always be added as
mentioned.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 04:53:38 GMT, the inscrutable "Joe"
spake:

Hydrofluoric acid. Don't go near it.

*** BUNCH OF REALLY SCARY STUFF CLIPPED ***

Jeez... I'm the one who said to be scared of the stuff becuase I used to
use it often! Had I known it was THAT bad, I'd have gotten rid of it much
faster...

If I remember correctly, it came as the main active ingredient in spoked
wheel cleaner when I owned an auto detailing operation...

Hydrofluoric acid is supposed to be the hollow-point slug of acids.
The little drip goes on the skin in a small area and comes out inches
larger on the other side. That got my attention when I heard it eons
ago.


================================================== ========
Save the ||| http://diversify.com
Endangered SKEETS! ||| Web Application Programming
================================================== ========

Don,
That stuff is shipped in a concentrated form because it is less reactive.
Mix that stuff with water and that stuff is very agressive. It will dissolve
aluminum instantly as well as glass and concrete. The fumes are super
corrosive. You must do this outside. It will eat holes instantly through
your clothes and then your skin. You must wear full protective clothing and
not all types of rubber gloves provide protection. I use the stuff in
motorcycle fuel tanks. You apply the acid in the tank for periods measured
in seconds not minutes. You must always rinse with water several times and
then use bicarbonate of soda to nuetralize.
Steve

"Don D." wrote in message
news:P1qWd.95491$bu.83532@fed1read06...
Does anyone use moradic acid for cleaning steel? I am starting to weld
horseshoes, but I have to clean them up from rust and anything else. I
have been using a coarse wire wheel and it takes about 3 -4 minutes for
one to do. I have herd from others that moradic acid (I hope I'm spelling
and saying it right) cleans them by letting them soak.. If this is right,
what is the ratio to use it as? Water mix. And how long to soak or drop in
and out.

Don D.

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

SNIP

You can add to the list nitric acid, which isn't forgiving of skin contact
in the least. It can remove the surface of your eye faster than you can
get it rinsed out. (Don't ask).

SNIP

Back when I was in school, I once pulled the stopper on a retort of boiling
nitric acid. I "invented" nitro-thumbnail. It didn't do any permanent
damage, but my fingers stayed yellow for a week. The teacher congratulated
me on having "discovered" the test for protein...

Jerry

In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

"Joe" wrote in message
news:mesWd.43279$ya6.18692@trndny01...
Muriatic acid. Cheap stuff. Gives of strong chlorine fumes. Some of
the
nastiest stuff known to man. Burns skin in an instant.
CLIP

I must be super human... I worked with teh stuff for years and never had
a
problem with my skin... I used to hold stuff and pour the acid over the
piece outdoors where I could rinse it off with a hose...

Never burned my skin unless I had a cut or something and then it simply
woke
me up real fast!

you want dangerous stuff for your health? Take a look at Hydroflouric
(sp?)
acid from what I hear...

You can add to the list nitric acid, which isn't forgiving of skin contact
in the least.

???

Me and a buddy of mine used extensive amounts of nitric in recovering
silver from photographic film - Mainly old X-rays and printer's films.

The operation was pretty simple:
Umpty-odd gallons of nitric acid (from flasks labeled "90 degree baum")
in rubbermaid garbage cans. Soak filmstock in it until the gelatin
became liquid enough to scrape off the backing material, scrape it off,
and discard the backing. Lather/rinse/repeat until the sludge in the
bottom of the garbage cans got good and deep, let settle for a few days,
rack off most of the acid above the sludge to another can for re-use,
then process the sludge.

As part of this operation, both of us routinely goggled up and went into
the garbage cans with bare skin almost armpit deep to pull the old films
and scrape what could be scraped. Worst effect noted: yellowing of the
skin and fingernails anywhere the acid had made contact. Kinda like that
"suntan in a can" stuff, but more yellowish than tan in color. Granted,
after a "fishing expedition" (and often during it), we hosed off quite
thoroughly, so we were rarely "leaving it sit to work" for very long.

About the only time either of us encountered any kind of discomfort was
if we caught a whiff of the fumes, and that was more on the lines of
"Yeesh! this stuff will 'bout rip your sinuses out, won't it?" than any
sort of real "hazard".

It can remove the surface of your eye faster than you can
get it rinsed out. (Don't ask).

That was the thing we were both most careful of - We'd go almost armpit
deep into the cans with bare hide, but neither one of us wanted to be in
the same room with the stuff, let alone actually spalshing around in it,
without goggles.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

I soaked about 10 horseshoes last night to see what it does and it did
remove the rust but they still need light wire wheeling to remove the light
residue and the horse s$%#, but it will save a lot of time on the wheel. and
the occasional flying horse shoes when the wheel gets the best of me...
I am using it about 25/75 and would like to know how do I neutralize the
acid when I am done using it before disposal (baking soda?) and or what is
the shelf life if in this stage if I do not dispose of it.

Thank you all for your input, This is going to save me a lot of time
Don D.


"Don D." wrote in message
news:%BrWd.95494$bu.19033@fed1read06...
I have three boxes of horseshoes that have been rained on and rust caked up
pretty heavy I was thinking of throwing a few in a 5 gal. bucket over night
or 24 hr. then clean up with water.

.............I just called one of the people that clean horseshoes for art
work and he said he does a 25/75 ratio 25% acid and leave it over night. I
may try that out and clean off in another 5 gal. of water.

Don D.

"Lawrence L'Hote" wrote in message
news:udrWd.34595$Ze3.16072@attbi_s51...

"Jeff R" wrote in message
...

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
Um, muriatic? Aka hydrochloric (typically 34.55% or something)?

Yeah, that works just fine. Rinse and oil quickly, and don't keep or
use
near tools.

Tim

Just to emphasize:

DON'T soak it overnight.

Quick dip, followed by an aggressive rinse.

Wear safety goggles, rubber gloves and do it outside with the acid
downwind from you. Neutralize with bicarbonate of soda.

In article 8fGWd.95641$bu.54113@fed1read06,
"Don D." wrote:


I am using it about 25/75 and would like to know how do I neutralize the
acid when I am done using it before disposal (baking soda?)

Dump in baking soda, crushed drywall, or gypsum chips/powder until it
stops "fizzing". You end up with what amounts to a container of
sal****er. (And might actually end up with some salt precipitating out
of the solution if you use baking soda - "Snow melter" (Calcium
chloride) will be the result if you use drywall/gypsum chips).

and or what is
the shelf life if in this stage if I do not dispose of it.

Shelf life is going to be short unless you can seal the container
airtight. On the order of days, I'd estimate.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

Tim Williams wrote:

Which reminds me, what's the most dangerous, in terms of LD50 quantity,
non-biological (i.e., not a virus or something) chemical? Anyone? I know
Ni(CO)5 is up there, with HgCl(2) too. Anything else?


Ni(CO)4 itym.


Starting with sodium cyanide, at a LD-50 of 150 mg/kg:

At 37 mg/kg mercuric chloride is not far off.

Carbon monoxide would be in here somewhere, maybe 10 mg/kg.

Then comes hydrogen cyanide, surprisingly toxic at about 1 mg/kg.

Nickel carbonyl and sodium fluoroacetate fit in next, at about 0.5 mg/kg.

The nerve agents are next, at about 0.1 mg/kg, and one of them, possibly VX,
might be considered the non-biological champ.

However Saxitoxin, originally a toxin from algae, has been made
synthetically, and is probably the non-protein champion killer, at 0.01
mg/kg.

Doesn't compare with Clostridium Botulinum neurotoxin though, which at 200
pg/kg (that's _pico_grams per kilo) is about 50,000 times more deadly.


These are all chemicals btw, and in no sense are they alive. The lethal
"dose" of some bacteria or viruses or prions may be lower.



Note that all these LD-50 figures (the amount needed to kill 50% of the
recipients) are really gross approximations, many aren't know that
accurately. Note also they are for acute toxicity and a quick kill only -
some of these toxins will have long-lasting effects, eg they may be
carcinogenic, or do other damage which can kill later, and some will not.

I have also massaged them a bit in an attempt to compare like with like, but
that's a bit difficult when eg some are absorbed through the skin and some
are harmless on skin, some will only kill at that level if injected, some
are gasses, and some are solids!


--
Peter Fairbrother

--Be safe; chuck 'em in a vibratory tumbler and come back in an
hour.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Blah blah blah blah
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : blah blah blah...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
om...
Wow - watch out - that stuff is hot stuff. It eats skin nicely.
use the baking soda instantly and then water. If you mix water -
remember ACID into Water - slowly. Do it abcd.t(o)..Wxyz

Not a problem with HCl, the solution isn't particularly active with water.
Sulfuric, however, is quite a water magnet and should always be added as
mentioned.

Tim

Yep! Unless you enjoy excitement.

Harold

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

"Joe" wrote in message
news:mesWd.43279$ya6.18692@trndny01...
Muriatic acid. Cheap stuff. Gives of strong chlorine fumes. Some
of
the
nastiest stuff known to man. Burns skin in an instant.
CLIP

I must be super human... I worked with teh stuff for years and never
had
a
problem with my skin... I used to hold stuff and pour the acid over
the
piece outdoors where I could rinse it off with a hose...

Never burned my skin unless I had a cut or something and then it
simply
woke
me up real fast!

you want dangerous stuff for your health? Take a look at Hydroflouric
(sp?)
acid from what I hear...

You can add to the list nitric acid, which isn't forgiving of skin
contact
in the least.

???

Me and a buddy of mine used extensive amounts of nitric in recovering
silver from photographic film - Mainly old X-rays and printer's films.

The operation was pretty simple:
Umpty-odd gallons of nitric acid (from flasks labeled "90 degree baum")
in rubbermaid garbage cans. Soak filmstock in it until the gelatin
became liquid enough to scrape off the backing material, scrape it off,
and discard the backing. Lather/rinse/repeat until the sludge in the
bottom of the garbage cans got good and deep, let settle for a few days,
rack off most of the acid above the sludge to another can for re-use,
then process the sludge.

As part of this operation, both of us routinely goggled up and went into
the garbage cans with bare skin almost armpit deep to pull the old films
and scrape what could be scraped. Worst effect noted: yellowing of the
skin and fingernails anywhere the acid had made contact. Kinda like that
"suntan in a can" stuff, but more yellowish than tan in color. Granted,
after a "fishing expedition" (and often during it), we hosed off quite
thoroughly, so we were rarely "leaving it sit to work" for very long.

About the only time either of us encountered any kind of discomfort was
if we caught a whiff of the fumes, and that was more on the lines of
"Yeesh! this stuff will 'bout rip your sinuses out, won't it?" than any
sort of real "hazard".

It can remove the surface of your eye faster than you can
get it rinsed out. (Don't ask).

That was the thing we were both most careful of - We'd go almost armpit
deep into the cans with bare hide, but neither one of us wanted to be in
the same room with the stuff, let alone actually spalshing around in it,
without goggles.


I guarantee you, there's now way in hell you'd have had your hands in the
solution if it was full strength. Just like the fumes were tough on your
lungs and eyes, so it would have been on your skin. When I was in the
learning phase of refining precious metals, I did a lot of testing of metals
to identify them, using a dropping bottle of nitric. I lost a fair amount
of skin, although not much at any one time, thanks to the small amount of
acid in question. I didn't enjoy the yellow, peeling skin. Didn't take
long until I learned to wear gloves-----always.

Harold

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 06:02:02 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
wrote:

tbone wrote:

Oxylic Acid

Is about half as poisonous as cyanide.
Is a major component of wood bleach and rust stain remover.

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...


"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
om...
Wow - watch out - that stuff is hot stuff. It eats skin nicely.
use the baking soda instantly and then water. If you mix water -
remember ACID into Water - slowly. Do it abcd.t(o)..Wxyz

Not a problem with HCl, the solution isn't particularly active with water.
Sulfuric, however, is quite a water magnet and should always be added as
mentioned.

Tim

Yep! Unless you enjoy excitement.

Both (diluting sulfuric and hydrochloric) are exothermic. Both
should be done acid - water. Granted the sulfuric is much
more so.

Jim


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