I haven't tried looking in an actual welding supply store, but I
have been looking in larger hardware stores. I'm curious about
the usefulness of various lower end welding torches. I've had about
six hours experience using an oxy-acetylene torch, but I've
never owned one. My usage would be occasional art projects, nothing
regular. I am hesitant about renting cylinders since if they sit
there for a month without being used, I'll feel like I'm wasting
money.

At the really low end, of course, are the propane ones. Even the
oxygen-propane models I suspect are fairly limited and not going
be able to do much. I've heard they are okay for cutting, and
cheaper than oxy-acetylene for that, though.

In the $250 to $300 range there are several small oxy-acetylene
setups, like this one:

http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/we...2GKA50-TC.html

The cylinders are small, but I expect sporatic use. It comes with
just one size each of brazing and cutting tip, but that site sells
a bunch of others with compatible connectors. Is this a good small
set up, or does it have drawbacks I'm not seeing?

The scale of the work I would be doing is probably bigger than a
mouse and smaller than a sheep dog. E.g tire iron candelabra.

Elijah
------
needs better wiring before an arc welder is an option

I just bought the oxy-acy. rig pictured. It is excellent, and cost me
about 250 also. It cost me 40 bucks to get both cylinders filled. My
advice is buy it and don't waste your money on anything less than
oxy-acy.
I previously bought a oxy mapp gas kit from Lowes which uses a regular
sized mapp gas bottle and a oxygen bottle of the same size. That was 50
bucks but there was a catch - the oxygen cylinders they sell to use
with the kit are pressured gas NOT liquid oxygen - hence you get about
5 -8 mins burn time only and they cost 11 bucks each. That ends up
being very expensive.
I also have a high temp mapp torch and a regular propane torch - both
fine for plumbimg work or melting brass/broze but really very
frustrating/useless on any serious work. If you want to do any work
with steel then oxy. acy. is a must.
Buy the kit - you pay out but you only pay once - you get the right
thing and it's yours with no monthly fees on cylinders to worry about.

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:39:02 +0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded
wrote:

I haven't tried looking in an actual welding supply store, but I
have been looking in larger hardware stores. I'm curious about
the usefulness of various lower end welding torches. I've had about
six hours experience using an oxy-acetylene torch, but I've
never owned one. My usage would be occasional art projects, nothing
regular. I am hesitant about renting cylinders since if they sit
there for a month without being used, I'll feel like I'm wasting
money.

At the really low end, of course, are the propane ones. Even the
oxygen-propane models I suspect are fairly limited and not going
be able to do much. I've heard they are okay for cutting, and
cheaper than oxy-acetylene for that, though.

In the $250 to $300 range there are several small oxy-acetylene
setups, like this one:

http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/we...2GKA50-TC.html

The cylinders are small, but I expect sporatic use. It comes with
just one size each of brazing and cutting tip, but that site sells
a bunch of others with compatible connectors. Is this a good small
set up, or does it have drawbacks I'm not seeing?

The scale of the work I would be doing is probably bigger than a
mouse and smaller than a sheep dog. E.g tire iron candelabra.

Elijah

I would recommend going with a 20 cu ft acetylene and 40 cu ft oxy.
The cost isn't much different and they cost about the same to fill so
your gas cost goes way down and you don't have to get them filled as
often. It doesn't take long to deplete an MC acetylene even with
light torchwork. They're a little heavy to "tote" both at once, but
they're very easy to handle on a small two-wheel dolly.

In rec.crafts.metalworking,
Don Foreman wrote:
I would recommend going with a 20 cu ft acetylene and 40 cu ft oxy.
The cost isn't much different and they cost about the same to fill so
your gas cost goes way down and you don't have to get them filled as
often. It doesn't take long to deplete an MC acetylene even with
light torchwork. They're a little heavy to "tote" both at once, but
they're very easy to handle on a small two-wheel dolly.

I've seen those kits availble with and without the cylinders. So
you'd recommend I get one without the cylinders and get bigger ones?
I haven't found prices for cylinders online. My local gas supplier
would probably be praxair and I can't find any prices on their site,
nor even what cylinder sizes they would have. Maybe I'll have to
stop by the store.

Elijah
------
likes to know exactly what to get before entering the store

wrote:
... - the oxygen cylinders they sell to use
with the kit are pressured gas NOT liquid oxygen - hence you get about
5 -8 mins burn time only and they cost 11 bucks each. ...

Even in the "real" cylinders oxygen is not stored as a liquid. It is
stored at high pressure (around 2000psi), while the small propane-size
cylinders are much lower pressure (I'd guess less than 200psi). Bob

"Eli the Bearded" wrote in message
...
In rec.crafts.metalworking,
Don Foreman wrote:
I would recommend going with a 20 cu ft acetylene and 40 cu ft oxy.
The cost isn't much different and they cost about the same to fill so
your gas cost goes way down and you don't have to get them filled as
often. It doesn't take long to deplete an MC acetylene even with
light torchwork. They're a little heavy to "tote" both at once, but
they're very easy to handle on a small two-wheel dolly.

I've seen those kits availble with and without the cylinders. So
you'd recommend I get one without the cylinders and get bigger ones?
I haven't found prices for cylinders online. My local gas supplier
would probably be praxair and I can't find any prices on their site,
nor even what cylinder sizes they would have. Maybe I'll have to
stop by the store.

Elijah
------
likes to know exactly what to get before entering the store

So, stop by Praxair and talk to them. I deal with them regularly, as well
as with two of their competitors (that are a little closer). All three are
very
good people to deal with. One small hint: if they're open on Saturday,
that
is the time to go. Most of their big customers are closed then and Saturday
is when they expect the "hobby" business and they generally have more
time to answer "newbie" questions.

And tell them up front that you are just looking for information, expecting
to make a decision "later." You don't have to buy the first time you go in.
They're not going to try to "high pressure" you into anything. They want
happy, loyal customers who keep coming back...

Jerry

I seem to recall a 40 cu ft oxygen cylinder as costing around $75 to
$100. I upgraded from a 40 cu ft to a 72 cu ft, and recall $75 or so
for the upgrade. I am still using the "B" size acetylene bottle, but
will probably eventually move up to the next size. The bottles are apt
to cost as much as the torch-regulator-hose setup.

With the small difference in price between filling a small bottle vs. a
larger one, the small bottles are not economical to use, if you use much
gas. This is particularly true of oxygen, where it only costs pennies
more to fill a large bottle vs. a small bottle. Of course, if your
usage is only occasional, the price per cu ft may not matter that much.

To me, the smaller cylinders (under 40 cu ft) are mostly if you want to
carry them up stairs, etc. Most people chain their bottles on carts
(cost $20 and up), so they can wheel them to the work painlessly and
relatively safely. Bottles over 80 cu ft size are generally rented, and
also very heavy to carry, so typically not practical for the small user.

I suggest you look for the following information:
1. Cost to buy a cylinder.
2. Cu ft of gas it holds.
3. Cost to fill the cylinder.

When you have that information, you can probably make a good decision.
Be sure to get a size that your local gas supplier keeps in stock, so
you can quickly and conveniently get a refil (exchange) when you need one.

If you are going to cut more than occasionally, get an oxygen bottle
that is bigger than the acetylene bottle. Otherwise the same size
bottle works out well.

Richard


Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.crafts.metalworking,
Don Foreman wrote:

I would recommend going with a 20 cu ft acetylene and 40 cu ft oxy.
The cost isn't much different and they cost about the same to fill so
your gas cost goes way down and you don't have to get them filled as
often. It doesn't take long to deplete an MC acetylene even with
light torchwork. They're a little heavy to "tote" both at once, but
they're very easy to handle on a small two-wheel dolly.


I've seen those kits availble with and without the cylinders. So
you'd recommend I get one without the cylinders and get bigger ones?
I haven't found prices for cylinders online. My local gas supplier
would probably be praxair and I can't find any prices on their site,
nor even what cylinder sizes they would have. Maybe I'll have to
stop by the store.

Elijah
------
likes to know exactly what to get before entering the store

I find it very handy to have larger cylinders for most of my work, backed up
with a small pair in a plastic tote-case, for portability. For economy, I
have a "cheater," which I use to refill my small O2 bottle from the large
one. I wouldn't dream of trying to do the same with the acetylene, 'cause I
don't know enough.

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:58:23 +0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded
wrote:
In rec.crafts.metalworking,
Don Foreman wrote:

I would recommend going with a 20 cu ft acetylene and 40 cu ft oxy.
The cost isn't much different and they cost about the same to fill so
your gas cost goes way down and you don't have to get them filled as
often. It doesn't take long to deplete an MC acetylene even with
light torchwork. They're a little heavy to "tote" both at once, but
they're very easy to handle on a small two-wheel dolly.

I've seen those kits availble with and without the cylinders. So
you'd recommend I get one without the cylinders and get bigger ones?
I haven't found prices for cylinders online. My local gas supplier
would probably be praxair and I can't find any prices on their site,
nor even what cylinder sizes they would have. Maybe I'll have to
stop by the store.

Rule #1 - Whatever you think you want to work on now, inevitably
you'll end up doing bigger things. Today tire-iron sculptures,
tomorrow I-beam sculptures.

Rather than buying too small and having to replace everything later,
I went with a better Victor Contractor Plus welding kit, which will
handle the big jobs, then got adapters to make the full-size
regulators work with the smaller B and MC Acetylene cylinder fittings.
(And then I got two sets of 50 CF oxygen and B acetylene bottles so
I'm never left hanging.)

You can always get small welding and cutting tips to fit on the big
torches, but you can't go the other way.

I've used those Porta-Torch kits with the smallest MC (20 CF?)
Acetylene cylinder, and they are only good for brazing or welding very
small stuff like air conditioning linesets - they simply don't have
enough gas to do big jobs. If you try, as soon as you get the flame
set right the bottles go dry. Been there, Done that...

Even a B Acetylene can't do too much big work, since you can't use
more than 1/7 of the acetylene cylinder capacity per hour - but when
you start doing really big jobs, you will probably get a rental set of
large gas cylinders delivered to the jobsite. Just remove the B
adapter and attach your regulator to the big bottle.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

My 2c, just having spent an accumulated fortune on tank rentals:
1. Buy Smith equipment, or the other big name, which escapes me. Never
Sears, never import. Sumpn to do w/ extruded vs. machined bodies.
2. *Buy* an acetylene "B" tank, 60 cu ft oxy, in fact, mebbe two of each,
so you never run dry. Don't rent the big tanks, unless you find yourself
filling up about once a month. Do the math, ito yearly rental fee vs. the
differential of filling big tanks (less per cu ft of gas) and that of small
tanks.

I actually have both big rental tanks and several small tanks, to make sure
I'm never dry. But now I'm returning my big tanks *today*. Just don't burn
enough to justify them.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Eli the Bearded" wrote in message
...
I haven't tried looking in an actual welding supply store, but I
have been looking in larger hardware stores. I'm curious about
the usefulness of various lower end welding torches. I've had about
six hours experience using an oxy-acetylene torch, but I've
never owned one. My usage would be occasional art projects, nothing
regular. I am hesitant about renting cylinders since if they sit
there for a month without being used, I'll feel like I'm wasting
money.

At the really low end, of course, are the propane ones. Even the
oxygen-propane models I suspect are fairly limited and not going
be able to do much. I've heard they are okay for cutting, and
cheaper than oxy-acetylene for that, though.

In the $250 to $300 range there are several small oxy-acetylene
setups, like this one:

http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/we...2GKA50-TC.html

The cylinders are small, but I expect sporatic use. It comes with
just one size each of brazing and cutting tip, but that site sells
a bunch of others with compatible connectors. Is this a good small
set up, or does it have drawbacks I'm not seeing?

The scale of the work I would be doing is probably bigger than a
mouse and smaller than a sheep dog. E.g tire iron candelabra.

Elijah
------
needs better wiring before an arc welder is an option

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:39:02 +0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded
wrote:

I haven't tried looking in an actual welding supply store, but I
have been looking in larger hardware stores. I'm curious about
the usefulness of various lower end welding torches. I've had about
six hours experience using an oxy-acetylene torch, but I've
never owned one. My usage would be occasional art projects, nothing
regular. I am hesitant about renting cylinders since if they sit
there for a month without being used, I'll feel like I'm wasting
money.

At the really low end, of course, are the propane ones. Even the
oxygen-propane models I suspect are fairly limited and not going
be able to do much. I've heard they are okay for cutting, and
cheaper than oxy-acetylene for that, though.

In the $250 to $300 range there are several small oxy-acetylene
setups, like this one:

http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/we...2GKA50-TC.html

The cylinders are small, but I expect sporatic use. It comes with
just one size each of brazing and cutting tip, but that site sells
a bunch of others with compatible connectors. Is this a good small
set up, or does it have drawbacks I'm not seeing?

The scale of the work I would be doing is probably bigger than a
mouse and smaller than a sheep dog. E.g tire iron candelabra.

I see several posts recommending large tanks. OK if you use them
enough -- but there is an advantage to the smaller 40 and 20 cu ft
bottles: they don't have to be periodically re-certified. That
means you don't get an annual "maintenance fee" from the supplier.

If a smaller one will last you a month or more in normal use, they
are a lot easier to deal with. I have an R oxy and B acet that I use
with my Lil' Torch, fill them every couple of years!

Eli the Bearded wrote:
I haven't tried looking in an actual welding supply store, but I
have been looking in larger hardware stores. I'm curious about
the usefulness of various lower end welding torches. I've had about
six hours experience using an oxy-acetylene torch, but I've
never owned one. My usage would be occasional art projects, nothing
regular. I am hesitant about renting cylinders since if they sit
there for a month without being used, I'll feel like I'm wasting
money.

At the really low end, of course, are the propane ones. Even the
oxygen-propane models I suspect are fairly limited and not going
be able to do much. I've heard they are okay for cutting, and
cheaper than oxy-acetylene for that, though.

snippage

DO NOT buy empty gas cylinders from a retailer without checking the
local gas suppliers' policies. You could get stuck, big time. Some
suppliers only rent tanks and don't fill anyone else's. Some suppliers
will take your new empty tank, put it in the pool and give you a full
used one. Some will fill your empty and return it, expect anywhere
from a couple of days to a week to get it back, though. If you're in
an area where rental or lease is the policy, you'd end up with a couple
of new tanks and no way to get them filled. You'd also hate to just
donate new tanks into a pool to get some rusty relic back. It all
depends on gas usage, for me the best way was to buy a set of bottles
out of the pool at one supplier, then just exchange when they become
empty. They take care of the hydro and marking as well as checking the
acetone on the acetylene.

You can also dicker with the guys at the weld supply, they'll sometimes
give you a break on list price for welding equipment, they're in a
razor and blade sort of business. You've got to get fills somewhere,
after all.

As far as tank size is concerned, unless you've got a Little Torch or
jeweler's torch, forget buying the dinky bottles. The cost of filling
is in handling the bottles and the insurance, the contents are fairly
cheap. It costs about as much to fill one of my 80 cu-ft. oxygen
bottles as it does to fill one of those dinky ones. I have a set of
small ones for the Little Torch, they're nice and portable, but only
last about 10 minutes with the Victor handpiece. With the Little
Torch, they last years, though. So my advice is to hit the gas
suppliers, see what their policies are and how big a set of tanks you
want to horse around.

For torches, you can probably pick up a Victor set without bottles for
just a little more than some of the import units. Again, check the
welding suppliers to see what makes they carry and have parts and
service. Eventually, you WILL need support, if for nothing more than
replacement tips. Most suppliers also carry tip charts for the makes
they sell, you will need those for setting up your regulators. Once
you know what's available in your area for service, look for those
makes at auctions and pawn shops. I was able to pick up the mid-size
Victor set for $60 at auction including regulators and hoses. Tanks
ran about $140, so it was $200 to start welding and cutting. Your
mileage will vary.

Stan

wrote:

I haven't tried looking in an actual welding supply store, but I
have been looking in larger hardware stores. I'm curious about
the usefulness of various lower end welding torches. I've had about
six hours experience using an oxy-acetylene torch, but I've
never owned one. My usage would be occasional art projects, nothing
regular. I am hesitant about renting cylinders since if they sit
there for a month without being used, I'll feel like I'm wasting
money.

At the really low end, of course, are the propane ones. Even the
oxygen-propane models I suspect are fairly limited and not going
be able to do much. I've heard they are okay for cutting, and
cheaper than oxy-acetylene for that, though.

In the $250 to $300 range there are several small oxy-acetylene
setups, like this one:

http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/we...2GKA50-TC.html

The cylinders are small, but I expect sporatic use. It comes with
just one size each of brazing and cutting tip, but that site sells
a bunch of others with compatible connectors. Is this a good small
set up, or does it have drawbacks I'm not seeing?

The scale of the work I would be doing is probably bigger than a
mouse and smaller than a sheep dog. E.g tire iron candelabra.

I see several posts recommending large tanks. OK if you use them
enough -- but there is an advantage to the smaller 40 and 20 cu ft
bottles: they don't have to be periodically re-certified. That
means you don't get an annual "maintenance fee" from the supplier.

If a smaller one will last you a month or more in normal use, they
are a lot easier to deal with. I have an R oxy and B acet that I use
with my Lil' Torch, fill them every couple of years!

Just my $.02 that I have learned from welding since 1974 ...........

You get what you pay for. Low end equipment is not made well. It is VERY
hard to get serviced. When you have trouble with it, you may as well toss
it. I would suggest that you look at Victor equipment. A new set will cost
you about $550, and a used set half that or less.

Bottles are best when bought. That way, you don't have any hassle ever. If
you just do the smaller weld jobs, get the smaller ones. But then, you have
to watch so you don't run out.

Trouble is, this stuff is addictive, and you just have to have MORE. You
may outgrow one setup. If you limit yourself with a small low end setup,
you won't be able to do bigger jobs, and will end up spending that money
anyway.

I need an OA setup. I would consider nothing but a Victor Journeyman, and I
would like to find one used. If I can't, I will just go and buy one new. I
know that they work so well that a used one would be a good bet to get a lot
of work out of. And a new one would certainly have years in it before
service. Tips and stuff are readily available at yard sales and pawn shops,
or other places.

Don't limit yourself, your talent, or your capabilities by cheaping out on
equipment. If you are really serious about this venture, think long term.
Unless you can buy stuff really cheap, then sell it if you don't like it,
you will take a beating in the wallet.

Steve

Smith has Lifetime warranty. And they are nickel plated which makes them
easy to keep clean.
Price is comparable to the higher end Victor but the Quality is better.
Just my 2c.
RR

"Eli the Bearded" wrote in message
...
I haven't tried looking in an actual welding supply store, but I
have been looking in larger hardware stores. I'm curious about
the usefulness of various lower end welding torches. I've had about
six hours experience using an oxy-acetylene torch, but I've
never owned one. My usage would be occasional art projects, nothing
regular. I am hesitant about renting cylinders since if they sit
there for a month without being used, I'll feel like I'm wasting
money.

At the really low end, of course, are the propane ones. Even the
oxygen-propane models I suspect are fairly limited and not going
be able to do much. I've heard they are okay for cutting, and
cheaper than oxy-acetylene for that, though.

In the $250 to $300 range there are several small oxy-acetylene
setups, like this one:

http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/we...2GKA50-TC.html

The cylinders are small, but I expect sporatic use. It comes with
just one size each of brazing and cutting tip, but that site sells
a bunch of others with compatible connectors. Is this a good small
set up, or does it have drawbacks I'm not seeing?

The scale of the work I would be doing is probably bigger than a
mouse and smaller than a sheep dog. E.g tire iron candelabra.

Elijah
------
needs better wiring before an arc welder is an option