It would be easier to measure the voltage across the coil when you try to
start it. If the coil does not pull in when the control circuit applies 12
volts, then you most likely have an open coil.

By applying 12 volts from an external source, you risk damage to the control
circuit unless you disconnected the coil first.

Tom


"Ignoramus18778" wrote in message
...
An update: The shutdown solenoid that must be engaged for the fuel to
go to the engine, does not seem to respond to 12V. I supplied 12V via
10 gauge wires, right to the contacts, and the solenoid does not budge
and there is no spark when the wires make the contact. Am I trying
something wrong?

i

Ignoramus18778 wrote:
An update: The shutdown solenoid that must be engaged for the fuel to
go to the engine, does not seem to respond to 12V. I supplied 12V via
10 gauge wires, right to the contacts, and the solenoid does not budge
and there is no spark when the wires make the contact. Am I trying
something wrong?

i

Sounds like a dead solenoid - bummer.
A re-wind shop may be able to fix it - or you may be able to do the repair.
Not all that complex.

Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

Ignoramus18778 wrote:
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 21:56:44 -0600, Ken Davey
wrote:
Ignoramus18778 wrote:
An update: The shutdown solenoid that must be engaged for the fuel
to go to the engine, does not seem to respond to 12V. I supplied
12V via 10 gauge wires, right to the contacts, and the solenoid
does not budge and there is no spark when the wires make the
contact. Am I trying something wrong?

i

Sounds like a dead solenoid - bummer.
A re-wind shop may be able to fix it - or you may be able to do the
repair. Not all that complex.

Yes, I also cranked the engine and there was about 10 volts on the
solenoid terminals, to no avail. I am going to now take it off, take
apart, and check in accordance with the maintenance manual.

I would like to fix it DIY, if I can, if not, I will order a new one
from a dealer. I have a gut feeling that it is not really dead. I
probably messed up something when I took it apart and oiled
yesterday. Note that the engine did run very well after I put the
solenoid back in. But it would not run the next day.

i

Ken.

Aha!
You didn't mention the 'lube job'.
Dissasmble and de-grease.
Ken.
--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

In article ,
Ignoramus20242 wrote:

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 08:12:33 -0600, Ken Davey
wrote:
Ignoramus18778 wrote:
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 21:56:44 -0600, Ken Davey
wrote:
Ignoramus18778 wrote:
An update: The shutdown solenoid that must be engaged for the fuel
to go to the engine, does not seem to respond to 12V. I supplied
12V via 10 gauge wires, right to the contacts, and the solenoid
does not budge and there is no spark when the wires make the
contact. Am I trying something wrong?

i

Sounds like a dead solenoid - bummer.
A re-wind shop may be able to fix it - or you may be able to do the
repair. Not all that complex.

Yes, I also cranked the engine and there was about 10 volts on the
solenoid terminals, to no avail. I am going to now take it off, take
apart, and check in accordance with the maintenance manual.

I would like to fix it DIY, if I can, if not, I will order a new one
from a dealer. I have a gut feeling that it is not really dead. I
probably messed up something when I took it apart and oiled
yesterday. Note that the engine did run very well after I put the
solenoid back in. But it would not run the next day.

i

Ken.

Aha!
You didn't mention the 'lube job'.
Dissasmble and de-grease.
Ken.

Ken, could you tell just what could be bad with the lube job???

I did not apply much oil.

i


It doesn't TAKE much oil/grease to foul a set of contacts to the point
of rendering them completely inoperable. The question becomes "which way
are they going to fail?" in a quick hurry. For a low-voltage environment
(and 12 volts definitely qualifies as low voltage), even a film of oil
you can't detect can be enough to either act as an insulator between the
contact points (assuming "clean" oil) or potentially worse, "dirty" oil
can short things out so that the contacts appear electrically closed
even when physically wide open. Either way, oiling electrical gear is
generally classed as a Bad Thing(TM). Oil the mechanical work, sure. But
do everything in your power to avoid oiling *ANY* of the electrical
stuff - A drop of oil can short several turns of the solenoid coil,
predisposing it to early failure, gum up the contacts that activate (or
get activated by) the solenoid, perhaps even strip the insulation off
the wiring, depending on what type of insulation is being used.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

Ignoramus20242 wrote:
Can I, hypothetically now try to
remedy this by submerging this thing in a solvent?

Maybe, but I suspect that replacing it is going to give you much
better results.

1. The solenoid probably was not working quite right because its
holding coil was not working. It was making machinegun like rattling
noise from the get go.

I'm thinking that was a sign of the holding coil being bad, and the
pull-in coil and it's switch chattering till _they_ gave up.

Too bad mil-surplus stuff doesn't come with a "surplussed for the
following reasons" list, along with a maintenance history (which I'd
think the military would have _had_ to have had...

On 7 Dec 2004 14:15:30 GMT, Ignoramus20242
wrote:
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 08:12:33 -0600, Ken Davey wrote:

Aha!
You didn't mention the 'lube job'.
Dissasmble and de-grease.
Ken.

Ken, could you tell just what could be bad with the lube job???

I did not apply much oil.

Read The Fine Manual - Solenoids usually don't like any oil in their
moving parts, and contrary to intuition it can gum up the works and
cause them to stick. It's okay to lightly oil the linkage pivots, but
not inside the bore. I learned this long ago from doorbell chimes.

Normally you clean oils off the bore and slug with a solvent and
buff them up a bit with very fine steel wool or crocus cloth. If
anything is allowed in there it might be a little bit of dry graphite
lock lube, or a Teflon spray dry-film lube, something that won't dry
out and get gummy on extended exposure to air.

Since you ordered a new solenoid already, check the instructions
that come with it...

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Ignoramus20242 wrote:
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:04:45 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote:

On 7 Dec 2004 14:15:30 GMT, Ignoramus20242
wrote:

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 08:12:33 -0600, Ken Davey wrote:

Aha!
You didn't mention the 'lube job'.
Dissasmble and de-grease.
Ken.

Ken, could you tell just what could be bad with the lube job???

I did not apply much oil.

Read The Fine Manual - Solenoids usually don't like any oil in their
moving parts, and contrary to intuition it can gum up the works and
cause them to stick. It's okay to lightly oil the linkage pivots, but
not inside the bore. I learned this long ago from doorbell chimes.


Thanks. I do not think that I saw anything in the manual that would say
not to oil the solenoid, but what you say makes complete sense.


Normally you clean oils off the bore and slug with a solvent and
buff them up a bit with very fine steel wool or crocus cloth. If
anything is allowed in there it might be a little bit of dry graphite
lock lube, or a Teflon spray dry-film lube, something that won't dry
out and get gummy on extended exposure to air.


I see. Thanks.


Since you ordered a new solenoid already, check the instructions
that come with it...


I sure will.

Thanks Bruce.

i

Is this a Prestolite brand solenoid?
Dave

Ignoramus20242 wrote:
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:48:00 -0700, Dave Morrison wrote:

Ignoramus20242 wrote:

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:04:45 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote:


On 7 Dec 2004 14:15:30 GMT, Ignoramus20242
wrote:


On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 08:12:33 -0600, Ken Davey wrote:

Aha!
You didn't mention the 'lube job'.
Dissasmble and de-grease.
Ken.

Ken, could you tell just what could be bad with the lube job???

I did not apply much oil.

Read The Fine Manual - Solenoids usually don't like any oil in their
moving parts, and contrary to intuition it can gum up the works and
cause them to stick. It's okay to lightly oil the linkage pivots, but
not inside the bore. I learned this long ago from doorbell chimes.


Thanks. I do not think that I saw anything in the manual that would say
not to oil the solenoid, but what you say makes complete sense.



Normally you clean oils off the bore and slug with a solvent and
buff them up a bit with very fine steel wool or crocus cloth. If
anything is allowed in there it might be a little bit of dry graphite
lock lube, or a Teflon spray dry-film lube, something that won't dry
out and get gummy on extended exposure to air.


I see. Thanks.



Since you ordered a new solenoid already, check the instructions
that come with it...


I sure will.

Thanks Bruce.

i

Is this a Prestolite brand solenoid?


Yes, it is.

i


Okee dokie now we are in my ball field.
As you noted this unit has two coils. When you take the back cover off
you will see two sets of winding wires. The heavy wires are the pull in
coils and the small almost hair thin wires are the hold in coils. Check
and see if the thin wires are burnt off.
Gotta go now the power company is shutting me down for a while, prepping
for my 55kw genset install, will post more info on this solenoid later,
including why they fail.
Dave

Ignoramus20242 wrote:
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 08:12:33 -0600, Ken Davey
wrote:
Ignoramus18778 wrote:
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 21:56:44 -0600, Ken Davey
wrote:
Ignoramus18778 wrote:
An update: The shutdown solenoid that must be engaged for the fuel
to go to the engine, does not seem to respond to 12V. I supplied
12V via 10 gauge wires, right to the contacts, and the solenoid
does not budge and there is no spark when the wires make the
contact. Am I trying something wrong?

i

Sounds like a dead solenoid - bummer.
A re-wind shop may be able to fix it - or you may be able to do the
repair. Not all that complex.

Yes, I also cranked the engine and there was about 10 volts on the
solenoid terminals, to no avail. I am going to now take it off, take
apart, and check in accordance with the maintenance manual.

I would like to fix it DIY, if I can, if not, I will order a new one
from a dealer. I have a gut feeling that it is not really dead. I
probably messed up something when I took it apart and oiled
yesterday. Note that the engine did run very well after I put the
solenoid back in. But it would not run the next day.

i

Ken.

Aha!
You didn't mention the 'lube job'.
Dissasmble and de-grease.
Ken.

Ken, could you tell just what could be bad with the lube job???

I did not apply much oil.

i

Possible contamination of internal swtich contacts?
--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

Ignoramus20242 wrote:
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:57:41 -0700, Dave Morrison wrote:

Is this a Prestolite brand solenoid?

Yes, it is.

Okee dokie now we are in my ball field.


Solenoid Prestolite SSC 4003, 12V 5L


As you noted this unit has two coils.


yes


When you take the back cover off you will see two sets of winding
wires.


Yes.


The heavy wires are the pull in coils and the small almost
hair thin wires are the hold in coils.


Yes.


Check and see if the thin wires are burnt off.


They are not burnt off. I see only perhaps 3 mm of them. (the solenoid
is in my home, but I remember it pretty well). I have no idea how to
pull out the whole thing from the housing.


If they are not visibly broken the fault is in the main body of the coil
and is not repairable. Makes an interesting paperweight.


Gotta go now the power company is shutting me down for a while,
prepping for my 55kw genset install, will post more info on this
solenoid later, including why they fail. Dave


I greatly appreciate!!!

i

When you get your new solenoid proper install will insure a long life.
1. Make sure the linkage is properly adjusted. The plunger MUST
completely seat in the bore when the solenoid is energized!!! The
plunger seats against a spring loaded button in the bottom of the bore,
the button operates the contacts in the back of the casing that
disconnects the pull in coil. The pull in coil draws between 20 & 30
amps the hold in maybe 2 amps. If that spring loaded button isn't fully
depressed you can get arcing across the contacts in the back, This of
course will destroy the contacts, but it also will heat up the pull in
coil enough to destroy the integrity of the enamel insulation of the
hold in coil and cause burn out.
2. Clean and lube the plunger, do not use oil. a light body grease is
used at the factory. Try to find a low temp grease, I use one made by
3M that is good to -50 F. Your big enemy here is rust on the plunger.
BTW some of these plungers are plated don't damage it with abrasives
when you clean it.
3. Try to insure the solenoid gets maximum voltage. Check your wiring
for frays and dirty connections. Use the right battery. You want a
starting battery not a deep cycle. A deep cycle is designed to be slowly
discharged a starting battery is set up to give you a lot of amps quick.
Look for something with a CCA of at least 500 amps. My own preference is
a group 31 with threaded studs. It has plenty of power, the studs get
rid of the lead posts and their corrosion problems. Plus it is usually
available a truck stops and heavy equipment dealers cheap ($55.00 to
65.00 USA)
4. Use the right battery cables. Minimum of 1 gauge. This will also
lengthen the life of the starter, and spin the motor faster for easier
starting.
These recommendations come from 30 years working on small 2 to 4 cyl
diesels in reefer units. Good luck. Dave

Ignoramus21494 wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 05:48:24 -0700, Dave Morrison wrote:

When you get your new solenoid proper install will insure a long life.
1. Make sure the linkage is properly adjusted. The plunger MUST
completely seat in the bore when the solenoid is energized!!! The
plunger seats against a spring loaded button in the bottom of the bore,
the button operates the contacts in the back of the casing that
disconnects the pull in coil. The pull in coil draws between 20 & 30
amps the hold in maybe 2 amps. If that spring loaded button isn't fully
depressed you can get arcing across the contacts in the back, This of
course will destroy the contacts, but it also will heat up the pull in
coil enough to destroy the integrity of the enamel insulation of the
hold in coil and cause burn out.


I will follow your suggestion to the letter. Thanks.


2. Clean and lube the plunger, do not use oil. a light body grease is
used at the factory. Try to find a low temp grease, I use one made by
3M that is good to -50 F. Your big enemy here is rust on the plunger.
BTW some of these plungers are plated don't damage it with abrasives
when you clean it.


Okay. I have some silicone lubricant. Would that do?

If its a lube and not a dielectric grease and has good low temp specs it
should work.


3. Try to insure the solenoid gets maximum voltage. Check your wiring
for frays and dirty connections. Use the right battery. You want a
starting battery not a deep cycle. A deep cycle is designed to be slowly
discharged a starting battery is set up to give you a lot of amps quick.
Look for something with a CCA of at least 500 amps. My own preference is
a group 31 with threaded studs. It has plenty of power, the studs get
rid of the lead posts and their corrosion problems. Plus it is usually
available a truck stops and heavy equipment dealers cheap ($55.00 to
65.00 USA)


I have a marine deep cycle/starting battery, 800+ amps at 0F.

If you got it use it. But combo batteries are a compromise. Unless you
have a need for deep cycle when this one dies get a straight starting
battery.


4. Use the right battery cables. Minimum of 1 gauge. This will also
lengthen the life of the starter, and spin the motor faster for easier
starting.
These recommendations come from 30 years working on small 2 to 4 cyl
diesels in reefer units. Good luck. Dave


Thanks Dave. I have 4 gauge starting cables, I think, will look for
heavier ones.

Welding supply store or heavy equipment truck parts store.

i

Dave

Ignoramus21494 wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:16:32 -0700, Dave Morrison wrote:

2. Clean and lube the plunger, do not use oil. a light body grease is
used at the factory. Try to find a low temp grease, I use one made by
3M that is good to -50 F. Your big enemy here is rust on the plunger.
BTW some of these plungers are plated don't damage it with abrasives
when you clean it.


Okay. I have some silicone lubricant. Would that do?


If its a lube and not a dielectric grease and has good low temp specs it
should work.


Thanks. I wonder though, should it not be properly lubricated at the
factory?

It probably will not come with a plunger and is shipped dry.


3. Try to insure the solenoid gets maximum voltage. Check your wiring
for frays and dirty connections. Use the right battery. You want a
starting battery not a deep cycle. A deep cycle is designed to be slowly
discharged a starting battery is set up to give you a lot of amps quick.
Look for something with a CCA of at least 500 amps. My own preference is
a group 31 with threaded studs. It has plenty of power, the studs get
rid of the lead posts and their corrosion problems. Plus it is usually
available a truck stops and heavy equipment dealers cheap ($55.00 to
65.00 USA)


I have a marine deep cycle/starting battery, 800+ amps at 0F.


If you got it use it. But combo batteries are a compromise. Unless you
have a need for deep cycle when this one dies get a straight starting
battery.


First of all, I have a boat and I need a marine battery. Second, a
marine battery can crank for longer because it has more amp hours, at
least I think so.
No it can't crank longer it can discharge longer at a relatively low
rate. Look at the cold cranking amps CCA. Batteries are designed for
specific purposes. A group 31 is designed to crank diesel engines.



4. Use the right battery cables. Minimum of 1 gauge. This will also
lengthen the life of the starter, and spin the motor faster for easier
starting.
These recommendations come from 30 years working on small 2 to 4 cyl
diesels in reefer units. Good luck. Dave


Thanks Dave. I have 4 gauge starting cables, I think, will look for
heavier ones.


Welding supply store or heavy equipment truck parts store.


Thanks, I appreciate.

i

Got a call, I'm off to a job.
Good luck. Dave

"Dave Morrison" wrote in message
...
Ignoramus21494 wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 05:48:24 -0700, Dave Morrison
wrote:

When you get your new solenoid proper install will insure a long life.
1. Make sure the linkage is properly adjusted. The plunger MUST
completely seat in the bore when the solenoid is energized!!! The
plunger seats against a spring loaded button in the bottom of the bore,
the button operates the contacts in the back of the casing that
disconnects the pull in coil. The pull in coil draws between 20 & 30
amps the hold in maybe 2 amps. If that spring loaded button isn't fully
depressed you can get arcing across the contacts in the back, This of
course will destroy the contacts, but it also will heat up the pull in
coil enough to destroy the integrity of the enamel insulation of the
hold in coil and cause burn out.


I will follow your suggestion to the letter. Thanks.


2. Clean and lube the plunger, do not use oil. a light body grease is
used at the factory. Try to find a low temp grease, I use one made by
3M that is good to -50 F. Your big enemy here is rust on the plunger.
BTW some of these plungers are plated don't damage it with abrasives
when you clean it.


Okay. I have some silicone lubricant. Would that do?

If its a lube and not a dielectric grease and has good low temp specs it
should work.


3. Try to insure the solenoid gets maximum voltage. Check your wiring
for frays and dirty connections. Use the right battery. You want a
starting battery not a deep cycle. A deep cycle is designed to be slowly
discharged a starting battery is set up to give you a lot of amps quick.
Look for something with a CCA of at least 500 amps. My own preference is
a group 31 with threaded studs. It has plenty of power, the studs get
rid of the lead posts and their corrosion problems. Plus it is usually
available a truck stops and heavy equipment dealers cheap ($55.00 to
65.00 USA)


I have a marine deep cycle/starting battery, 800+ amps at 0F.

If you got it use it. But combo batteries are a compromise. Unless you
have a need for deep cycle when this one dies get a straight starting
battery.


4. Use the right battery cables. Minimum of 1 gauge. This will also
lengthen the life of the starter, and spin the motor faster for easier
starting.
These recommendations come from 30 years working on small 2 to 4 cyl
diesels in reefer units. Good luck. Dave


Thanks Dave. I have 4 gauge starting cables, I think, will look for
heavier ones.

Welding supply store or heavy equipment truck parts store.

i


I agree with Dave about the cables, if they are very long. If you are
talking about a few feet then the differences between 4 and 1 would be
slight. IMP
I welding or locomotive cable as it is called sometimes is great though
expensive. I have used MTW wire. Stands for machine tool wire, "a whole
lotta tiny wires" very similar to welding cable but comes in THWN and XHHW
insulation which can last longer in the sun light. ( big deal where I
live ). Your not going to find MTW at the box stores

Also the connections from the cable to the terminal to the post is another
place of importance. I have an T&B 3 crimper that I use to put the terminals
on. This makes an very air tight connection a lot like a factory battery
cable. I also like to use grade 5 bolts they hold up better to the corrosive
nature of batteries.

I, It looks to me that you are going a touch overboard on the cushioned
cart. I don't understand why you are going to such extremes to reduce
vibration. BTW, how do you plan to turn the cart? Its going to be tough to
maneuver.
Good luck with the solenoid!
Dave


"Ignoramus23449" wrote in message
...
My saga goes on. The solenoid that I bought from Onan turned out to be
completely wrong. The correct one costs, drumroll, $370 something. I
almost fainted when I heard that. WTF!

I am going to go to McMaster-Carr today (they have an office 30
minutes from me) and pick up a 12V DC 1" linear pull solenoid of
similar dimensions. The pull force is 80 oz, which I hope will be
enough. The solenoid draws 11 watts (1 amp), which I hope won't
overload the control system. I will have to do some "metalworking" to
fit an adjustable nut on it and fit it into the system, but I am
hopeful.

I am building a cushioned carriage for it, see my progress at

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/Carriage/

I also added a 1/2"ID NPT pipe and a ball valve for ease of draining
oil. See the bottom if this pictu

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Dies...e/dscf0006.jpg

i

In article ,
Ignoramus23449 wrote:

I am going to go to McMaster-Carr today (they have an office 30
minutes from me) and pick up a 12V DC 1" linear pull solenoid of
similar dimensions. The pull force is 80 oz, which I hope will be
enough. The solenoid draws 11 watts (1 amp), which I hope won't
overload the control system.

Let me know how that works for you, and the exact McMaster/Karr
stock number, as I want to convert my MDJA and DJA over to Injector
Rack Shutdown from Compression Release Shutdown.


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

--
'
"Ignoramus23449" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:53:25 -0800, TeamCasa wrote:
I, It looks to me that you are going a touch overboard on the cushioned
cart.

Dave, you could, very well, be right. I may be going overboard. My
reasoning is that the price of these used tires is unbeatable (they
are free), the cushioning ability of this setup is unbeatable (tires
are made to flex for tens of thousands of miles), the sound dampening
ability is also good (as far as sound transmitted via vibration),

What you are forgetting is that the plywood platform that the generator is
sitting on is going to be vibrating like the top of a drum and will be
creating noise. A metal frame at the top won't be as bad.

Also, I was afraid that without this cushioning, the 5/6" axles could
bend during transportation or engine operation.

You say that the generator weighs 400 lbs. Those axles won't bend under that
weight. And certainly not from vibration.

If I , say, use this genset in emergency and go to bed at night, I
would feel good if I was sure that this setup won't fall apart while I
am in bed, at 3 am, due to plywood/screw/etc failure.

No, but it might leak fuel onto the plywood and catch fire.
Another reason to use metal and ditch the tires which could hold a pool of
fuel and burn with a nasty black smoke.

So, worst case, if you are right, I would have wasted a few hours of
my time. No big deal, I waste time all the time.

I don't understand why you are going to such extremes to reduce
vibration. BTW, how do you plan to turn the cart? Its going to be
tough to
maneuver.

Good question. Basically, I am strong enough to lift one end of it a
little bit. I will attach something that would let me do it without
excessive bending, or some boards for extra levering. I am not
concerned.

On 10 Dec 2004 00:33:18 GMT, Ignoramus23449
wrote:

snipped and couldnt reply to J for some reason
No, but it might leak fuel onto the plywood and catch fire. Another
reason to use metal and ditch the tires which could hold a pool of
fuel and burn with a nasty black smoke.

Hm, that's something to think about. Thanks.

i

Had mine sitting on a tire and its been drenched in fuel several
times, spills when cleaning the injector, spills when filling on cold
days and hands are frozen, etc. Its a scary sight, but I dont know
where the fire hazard would come from. Ive accidentally hit the tire
with the torch many times while warming things up, diesel isnt that
easy to ignite.