Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old November 4th 20, 01:41 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Milling wood saw blade steel

I'm trying to design a sharpening jig for my bandsaw mill blades that uses a
hand-held Dremel as a cam-guided router. I think I know how to make the
positioning fixture, and mill a cam to guide a bearing on the bit shank, but
I have no experience with milling moderately hard wood saw blade steel, or a
worn-out blade to practice on. Presumably the choices are ceramic or diamond
grinding bits or HSS or carbide milling cutters. The gullet curve has a
minimum radius of 3/32" which I'd like to preserve by using 1/8" or 3/16"
cutters so the blades can still be resharpened without difficulty on
commercial equipment.

The cam milling setup would be a pin the diameter of the cutter bit clamped
upright on the milling machine table, centered under an endmill the diameter
of the routing bit shank bearing OD, like 0.500. I have a short section of
new blade to clamp under the cam blank to trace the gullet shape against the
lower pin, and once the straight front and top rake sections have been
started they could be extended beyond the tooth tip by clamping the blank at
the 30 or 8 degree rake angle and moving the table. The limitation is that
there's no way to adjust for wear on the bit beyond moving it endwise in the
collet, thus an HSS or carbide cutter should be better than a stone IF they
hold up long enough.

The teeth have to be set sideways and perhaps reset to the opposite side so
they are are soft enough to file, which I just confirmed. My Scleroscope
doesn't measure the Rc hardness of objects less than ~1" thick reliably even
if they are solidly clamped in the milling vise. I checked it against
samples of known hardness while taking blacksmithing classes.
http://www.detroitflame.com/HardnessTester.htm

The shop that sharpens my blades told me they recently replaced some old
equipment, so maybe the problems I'm having will be gone when my resharpened
blades arrive next week.



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Old November 4th 20, 09:58 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Milling wood saw blade steel


On 11/4/2020 5:41 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I'm trying to design a sharpening jig for my bandsaw mill blades that

uses a hand-held Dremel as a cam-guided router. I think I know how to
make the positioning fixture, and mill a cam to guide a bearing on the
bit shank, but I have no experience with milling moderately hard wood
saw blade steel, or a worn-out blade to practice on. Presumably the
choices are ceramic or diamond grinding bits or HSS or carbide milling
cutters. The gullet curve has a minimum radius of 3/32" which I'd like
to preserve by using 1/8" or 3/16" cutters so the blades can still be
resharpened without difficulty on commercial equipment.

The cam milling setup would be a pin the diameter of the cutter bit

clamped upright on the milling machine table, centered under an endmill
the diameter of the routing bit shank bearing OD, like 0.500. I have a
short section of new blade to clamp under the cam blank to trace the
gullet shape against the lower pin, and once the straight front and top
rake sections have been started they could be extended beyond the tooth
tip by clamping the blank at the 30 or 8 degree rake angle and moving
the table. The limitation is that there's no way to adjust for wear on
the bit beyond moving it endwise in the collet, thus an HSS or carbide
cutter should be better than a stone IF they hold up long enough.

The teeth have to be set sideways and perhaps reset to the opposite

side so they are are soft enough to file, which I just confirmed. My
Scleroscope doesn't measure the Rc hardness of objects less than ~1"
thick reliably even if they are solidly clamped in the milling vise. I
checked it against samples of known hardness while taking blacksmithing
classes.
http://www.detroitflame.com/HardnessTester.htm

The shop that sharpens my blades told me they recently replaced some

old equipment, so maybe the problems I'm having will be gone when my
resharpened blades arrive next week.



While I don't have direct experience I can refer you to YouTube where
there are a few bandsaw mill blade sharpening videos. A few show
commercial sharpening systems that I found to be very educational. Most
seem to us a diamond blade or wheel. The time per tooth for basic
carbon or even HSS teeth is very short.

I think a simple ratchet dog and a quick clamp would work for indexing.
Set the angles for your sharpener twice per simple blade. Once for left
set and once for right set. Due to varying blade lengths the tooth
count may not come out even so always remember to paint/mark your blade
so you don't start accidentally reverse sharpening teeth when you get to
the end.

For my upright and horizontal bandsaws I have pretty much decided that
sharpeni8ng is not worth my time when I can buy M42 blades made to
length. If I had a large gap (low pitch) bandsaw mill blade I might be
tempted to sharpen. I do have one carbide tooth blade that might
marginally be worth sharpening instead of replacing... and its dull.


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Old November 5th 20, 12:24 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 5,778
Default Milling wood saw blade steel

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ...


On 11/4/2020 5:41 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I'm trying to design a sharpening jig for my bandsaw mill blades that

uses a hand-held Dremel ...
---------------------------
While I don't have direct experience I can refer you to YouTube where
there are a few bandsaw mill blade sharpening videos. A few show
commercial sharpening systems that I found to be very educational. Most
seem to us a diamond blade or wheel. The time per tooth for basic
carbon or even HSS teeth is very short.

I think a simple ratchet dog and a quick clamp would work for indexing.
Set the angles for your sharpener twice per simple blade. Once for left
set and once for right set. Due to varying blade lengths the tooth
count may not come out even so always remember to paint/mark your blade
so you don't start accidentally reverse sharpening teeth when you get to
the end.

For my upright and horizontal bandsaws I have pretty much decided that
sharpeni8ng is not worth my time when I can buy M42 blades made to
length. If I had a large gap (low pitch) bandsaw mill blade I might be
tempted to sharpen. I do have one carbide tooth blade that might
marginally be worth sharpening instead of replacing... and its dull.
--------------------------

Thanks. My 4G LTE Internet was absorbed by another ISP who offered me a nice
introductory rate of $4 per GB for a while, but has reverted to their normal
$10/GB rate, so I try to stay below 50~60 MB per day and avoid videos, at
least until I finish the outdoor projects and can take time to use the town
library's WiFi. I've looked at several text + photos descriptions of home
made blade sharpeners.

If I decided to sacrifice the factory gullet shape I could mill a blade
holding fixture for my chain saw sharpener to grind only the straight front
rake (hook). I think the commercial sharpener sets the teeth left, center,
right first and then grinds them all the same way, a straight-across rip
grind instead of an angled cross-cut like a hand saw.

The tooth pitch is a large 3/4" and the 3 tooth set pattern makes keeping
track of where I am pretty easy. I've already deburred and reset two poorly
done blades, the reason for considering making a sharpener. It's easier with
the blades on the saw which holds them more firmly than my hand wants to.
The weld is an obvious starting and stopping point where the pitch is
uncertain, a consideration for indexing the teeth from adjacent ones to
leave the gullet open for the cutter.

The real question which I didn't state explicitly was whether or not the
cutter types I listed can cut fileable spring steel with a reasonable life.

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Old November 5th 20, 05:33 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 106
Default Milling wood saw blade steel

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 07:41:37 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

I'm trying to design a sharpening jig for my bandsaw mill blades that uses a
hand-held Dremel as a cam-guided router. I think I know how to make the
positioning fixture, and mill a cam to guide a bearing on the bit shank, but
I have no experience with milling moderately hard wood saw blade steel, or a
worn-out blade to practice on. Presumably the choices are ceramic or diamond
grinding bits or HSS or carbide milling cutters. The gullet curve has a
minimum radius of 3/32" which I'd like to preserve by using 1/8" or 3/16"
cutters so the blades can still be resharpened without difficulty on
commercial equipment.

The cam milling setup would be a pin the diameter of the cutter bit clamped
upright on the milling machine table, centered under an endmill the diameter
of the routing bit shank bearing OD, like 0.500. I have a short section of
new blade to clamp under the cam blank to trace the gullet shape against the
lower pin, and once the straight front and top rake sections have been
started they could be extended beyond the tooth tip by clamping the blank at
the 30 or 8 degree rake angle and moving the table. The limitation is that
there's no way to adjust for wear on the bit beyond moving it endwise in the
collet, thus an HSS or carbide cutter should be better than a stone IF they
hold up long enough.

The teeth have to be set sideways and perhaps reset to the opposite side so
they are are soft enough to file, which I just confirmed. My Scleroscope
doesn't measure the Rc hardness of objects less than ~1" thick reliably even
if they are solidly clamped in the milling vise. I checked it against
samples of known hardness while taking blacksmithing classes.
http://www.detroitflame.com/HardnessTester.htm

The shop that sharpens my blades told me they recently replaced some old
equipment, so maybe the problems I'm having will be gone when my resharpened
blades arrive next week.

A Dremel moto tool would be a poor choice for this aplication. I say
this because I just made up a half dozen blades for my 12" band saw
(wood) by silver soldering new and used 1/2" bade stock. I grabbed the
Dremel to clean up the joint after it cooled. On the second blade I
tried a mounted stone in my el-cheapo air powered die grinder and
finished off the five remaining blades in less time than it took for
the first blade. The Dremel just doesn't have the oomph that the die
grinder packs, plus the 1/8" spindled stone is about a quarter or less
the mass of the 1/4" mounted die grinder item.
How did I ever live in my shop before I got my old Gardner-Denver
compressor for $3 and spent ~$75 to get it up and running!
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Old November 5th 20, 01:19 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Milling wood saw blade steel

"Gerry" wrote in message ...

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 07:41:37 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

I'm trying to design a sharpening jig for my bandsaw mill blades that uses
a
hand-held Dremel as a cam-guided router. ...


A Dremel moto tool would be a poor choice for this aplication. I say
this because I just made up a half dozen blades for my 12" band saw
(wood) by silver soldering new and used 1/2" bade stock. I grabbed the
Dremel to clean up the joint after it cooled. On the second blade I
tried a mounted stone in my el-cheapo air powered die grinder and
finished off the five remaining blades in less time than it took for
the first blade. The Dremel just doesn't have the oomph that the die
grinder packs, plus the 1/8" spindled stone is about a quarter or less
the mass of the 1/4" mounted die grinder item.
How did I ever live in my shop before I got my old Gardner-Denver
compressor for $3 and spent ~$75 to get it up and running!

--------------------------------------

I recently used a Dremel to grind car fender rust spots back to solid metal,
by feel. The stones had a very short life cutting into the edge of sheet
metal, and a chainsaw sharpening stone disintegrated on it. I didn't have a
cylindrical HSS cutter bit to try. The Dremel was very slow grinding down
the back of lumpy old welds in the narrow gap between the fender and wheel
well liner, where the larger bits of my 1/4" die grinder wouldn't fit.

1/4" bits are certainly an option, I have several air and electric tools
that accept them, for grinding welds in tight corners etc. I started
planning around a Dremel because I have one with the conical routing guide
attachment, and its lighter weight should make it easier to guide
accurately. A 12V chain saw grinder with a 3/16" cylindrical diamond bit
might work too, with a suitable router guide, if the bit doesn't wear too
quickly.
https://www.ebay.com/b/12-Volt-Chain.../bn_7023355232

A 1/4" cutter changes the gullet minimum radius and may disqualify the blade
from commercial grinding. The real question is what easily available type
and size of bit should I design for. I don't have a scrap blade to test
cutter bit life on.



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Old November 5th 20, 03:21 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 42
Default Milling wood saw blade steel

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 6:42:19 AM UTC-6, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I'm trying to design a sharpening jig for my bandsaw mill blades that uses a
hand-held Dremel as a cam-guided router. I think I know how to make the
positioning fixture, and mill a cam to guide a bearing on the bit shank, but
I have no experience with milling moderately hard wood saw blade steel, or a
worn-out blade to practice on. Presumably the choices are ceramic or diamond
grinding bits or HSS or carbide milling cutters. The gullet curve has a
minimum radius of 3/32" which I'd like to preserve by using 1/8" or 3/16"
cutters so the blades can still be resharpened without difficulty on
commercial equipment.

The cam milling setup would be a pin the diameter of the cutter bit clamped
upright on the milling machine table, centered under an endmill the diameter
of the routing bit shank bearing OD, like 0.500. I have a short section of
new blade to clamp under the cam blank to trace the gullet shape against the
lower pin, and once the straight front and top rake sections have been
started they could be extended beyond the tooth tip by clamping the blank at
the 30 or 8 degree rake angle and moving the table. The limitation is that
there's no way to adjust for wear on the bit beyond moving it endwise in the
collet, thus an HSS or carbide cutter should be better than a stone IF they
hold up long enough.

The teeth have to be set sideways and perhaps reset to the opposite side so
they are are soft enough to file, which I just confirmed. My Scleroscope
doesn't measure the Rc hardness of objects less than ~1" thick reliably even
if they are solidly clamped in the milling vise. I checked it against
samples of known hardness while taking blacksmithing classes.
http://www.detroitflame.com/HardnessTester.htm

The shop that sharpens my blades told me they recently replaced some old
equipment, so maybe the problems I'm having will be gone when my resharpened
blades arrive next week.

here you go...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEVvd81V7Ms&t=320s
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Old November 5th 20, 04:50 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Milling wood saw blade steel


On 11/4/2020 4:24 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ...


On 11/4/2020 5:41 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I'm trying to design a sharpening jig for my bandsaw mill blades that

uses a hand-held Dremel ...
---------------------------
While I don't have direct experience I can refer you to YouTube where
there are a few bandsaw mill blade sharpening videos. A few show
commercial sharpening systems that I found to be very educational. Most
seem to us a diamond blade or wheel. The time per tooth for basic
carbon or even HSS teeth is very short.

I think a simple ratchet dog and a quick clamp would work for indexing.
Set the angles for your sharpener twice per simple blade. Once for left
set and once for right set. Due to varying blade lengths the tooth
count may not come out even so always remember to paint/mark your blade
so you don't start accidentally reverse sharpening teeth when you get to
the end.

For my upright and horizontal bandsaws I have pretty much decided that
sharpeni8ng is not worth my time when I can buy M42 blades made to
length. If I had a large gap (low pitch) bandsaw mill blade I might be
tempted to sharpen. I do have one carbide tooth blade that might
marginally be worth sharpening instead of replacing... and its dull.
--------------------------

Thanks. My 4G LTE Internet was absorbed by another ISP who offered me

a nice introductory rate of $4 per GB for a while, but has reverted to
their normal $10/GB rate, so I try to stay below 50~60 MB per day and
avoid videos, at least until I finish the outdoor projects and can take
time to use the town library's WiFi. I've looked at several text +
photos descriptions of home made blade sharpeners.

If I decided to sacrifice the factory gullet shape I could mill a

blade holding fixture for my chain saw sharpener to grind only the
straight front rake (hook). I think the commercial sharpener sets the
teeth left, center, right first and then grinds them all the same way, a
straight-across rip grind instead of an angled cross-cut like a hand saw.

The tooth pitch is a large 3/4" and the 3 tooth set pattern makes

keeping track of where I am pretty easy. I've already deburred and reset
two poorly done blades, the reason for considering making a sharpener.
It's easier with the blades on the saw which holds them more firmly than
my hand wants to. The weld is an obvious starting and stopping point
where the pitch is uncertain, a consideration for indexing the teeth
from adjacent ones to leave the gullet open for the cutter.

The real question which I didn't state explicitly was whether or not

the cutter types I listed can cut fileable spring steel with a
reasonable life.



Diamond circular blade in jigged up angle grinder or more purpose built
grinding drive.

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Old November 5th 20, 06:18 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Milling wood saw blade steel

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ...
On 11/4/2020 4:24 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ...
On 11/4/2020 5:41 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I'm trying to design a sharpening jig for my bandsaw mill blades that

uses a hand-held Dremel ...
---------------------------


Diamond circular blade in jigged up angle grinder or more purpose built
grinding drive.

--------------------------------------------

One of the sites I visited had gone to that after the stones failed.

One file stroke per tooth is quick and gives a noticeable improvement.

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Old November 6th 20, 12:51 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 5,778
Default Milling wood saw blade steel

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...

One file stroke per tooth is quick and gives a noticeable improvement.
---------------------------------------

If filing the 30 degree top of the tooth proves to be effective and
acceptable to the resharpening shop, the guide could be similar to the
Husqvarna roller guide which indexes solidly on the chain. I begin
problem-solving with complex solutions but often end up with simple ones.

https://www.firewood-for-life.com/hu...-file-kit.html

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Old January 8th 21, 03:56 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Milling wood saw blade steel

On 11/4/2020 1:58 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

On 11/4/2020 5:41 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I'm trying to design a sharpening jig for my bandsaw mill blades that

uses a hand-held Dremel as a cam-guided router. I think I know how to
make the positioning fixture, and mill a cam to guide a bearing on the
bit shank, but I have no experience with milling moderately hard wood
saw blade steel, or a worn-out blade to practice on. Presumably the
choices are ceramic or diamond grinding bits or HSS or carbide milling
cutters. The gullet curve has a minimum radius of 3/32" which I'd like
to preserve by using 1/8" or 3/16" cutters so the blades can still be
resharpened without difficulty on commercial equipment.

The cam milling setup would be a pin the diameter of the cutter bit

clamped upright on the milling machine table, centered under an endmill
the diameter of the routing bit shank bearing OD, like 0.500. I have a
short section of new blade to clamp under the cam blank to trace the
gullet shape against the lower pin, and once the straight front and top
rake sections have been started they could be extended beyond the tooth
tip by clamping the blank at the 30 or 8 degree rake angle and moving
the table. The limitation is that there's no way to adjust for wear on
the bit beyond moving it endwise in the collet, thus an HSS or carbide
cutter should be better than a stone IF they hold up long enough.

The teeth have to be set sideways and perhaps reset to the opposite

side so they are are soft enough to file, which I just confirmed. My
Scleroscope doesn't measure the Rc hardness of objects less than ~1"
thick reliably even if they are solidly clamped in the milling vise. I
checked it against samples of known hardness while taking blacksmithing
classes.
http://www.detroitflame.com/HardnessTester.htm

The shop that sharpens my blades told me they recently replaced some

old equipment, so maybe the problems I'm having will be gone when my
resharpened blades arrive next week.



While I don't have direct experience I can refer you to YouTube where
there are a few bandsaw mill blade sharpening videos.* A few show
commercial sharpening systems that I found to be very educational.* Most
seem to us a diamond blade or wheel.* The time per tooth for basic
carbon or even HSS teeth is very short.

I think a simple ratchet dog and a quick clamp would work for indexing.
Set the angles for your sharpener twice per simple blade.* Once for left
set and once for right set.* Due to varying blade lengths the tooth
count may not come out even so always remember to paint/mark your blade
so you don't start accidentally reverse sharpening teeth when you get to
the end.

For my upright and horizontal bandsaws I have pretty much decided that
sharpeni8ng is not worth my time when I can buy M42 blades made to
length.* If I had a large gap (low pitch) bandsaw mill blade I might be
tempted to sharpen.* I do have one carbide tooth blade that might
marginally be worth sharpening instead of replacing... and its dull.





Well, I recently had to sharpen a saw blade. It wasn't a bandsaw blade,
but it was probably similar. An old school 24" butcher's saw. It looks
like an oversized hacksaw. It was dull from use, and it has lost much
of its set, but there is still some. I just free handed it under a
magnifier lamp with a cheap diamond blade mounted on a bench grinder.
By cheap I mean a piece of thin steel with a thin coat of diamond dust
glued to the sides. Harbor Freight sells them for $8-10 but I have a
buddy who buys them elsewhere in bulk to sell with a tungsten sharpening
kit on Ebay. Anyway, I just sort of picked an angle and set my hands up
with a few practice dry runs for some short term muscle memory. I would
not say it worked "great" but it worked well enough.

The saw is nothing special. At one time probably every store with a
meat department had one, but my mom used this one to breaking down sides
of beef that were to big to put on the bandsaw. 30-40 years ago. A
couple years ago I asked my dad if they still had that saw, and if they
would look to see who made it so I could buy one. A few weeks later be
brought me the saw. (They have been out of the grocery business and
retired for a few years now.)

Before the holidays my wife picked up several sections of standing rib
roast. They were on sale everywhere. One store cut them into steaks
for us at no charge, Another no longer does that so I was stuck
breaking them down by hand for vacuum sealing and freezing. The first
two cuts before sharpening just about wrecked me. After sharpening I
was able to break down sections with a knife and cut the bone twice as
fast as my wife could vacuum pack the individual steaks.

Then a few days later I found I could buy those blades online still. I
don't think I'll resharpen this blade again. LOL.

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