All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.

On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.

For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.

I bought a bunch of rigid plastic containers with vacuum inputs
at a garage sale and tried to learn how to use them.

I concluded that:
If you can't force the container into contact with the food,
the best you can do is to exclude air with vacuum.
The seal-a-meal vacuum pump I have couldn't do much better
than removing 2/3 of the air.
If Oxygen is what causes food to go bad, higher vacuum removes
more of it.
If you use higher vacuum, you suck moisture out of the food.
If that results in a puddle somewhere, that can't be good.
I assume you wouldn't want to wait long enough for all the
moisture to be removed by the pump.
Higher vacuum probably results in more air and/or pathogens
being sucked in over time thru tiny leaks.

A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.

Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.

On Thu, 04 May 2017 09:39:00 -0700, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.
The motor is submerged in oil for cooling - the actual compressor is
still not adequately lubricated in many cases.

"mike" wrote in message news
Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.
================================================== =

I don't know how big they are, but especially if they have transparent lids
they might work well as degassing chambers if you ever get into casting
polymers like polyurethane ... If nothing else, suggest it on your price
tag when you do the yard sale :-).

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames

Eric - you might try Harbor Freight's air powered vaccum pump. According
to memory, 4 cuft/min power required for 25 inches vacuum. $14 or
thereabouts.

Hul

wrote:
All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric

wrote:
So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good

The principal drawback is volumetric efficiency. Reefer compressors are
usually piston-type with finite compression ratio. Vacuum pumps are
usually rotary vane types with (ideally) infinite compression ratio.

Whether that matters depends entirely on the base pressure you want to
achieve. For food, the base pressure will be around the vapor pressure
of water. At room temperature that's about 20 torr. A piston compressor
needs a compression ratio of roughly 40 to get there when exhausting to
atmosphere, and its efficiency is zero in that limit.

40 seems like a rather high compression ratio, purely from a mechanical
point of view. It would be surprising if a reefer compressor is that good.

hth,

bob prohaska

On 05/04/2017 08:48 AM, wrote:
All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric

Mechanical vacuum pumps tend to backstream pump oil when the pressure
starts getting down. You commonly use a cold trap (LN2) in applications
that won't tolerate pump oil in the vac chamber. Might add a strange
taste to the food!

BobH

On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:
On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, etpm@whidbey... wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, clare@snyder... wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, etpm@whidbey... wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. [... I'm]
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. [...]
So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor

How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work? Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but
the pump will deteriorate with use.

Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the [reefer] types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.
For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.
[...] A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.
....

If the goal is storing frozen foods while avoiding freezer burn,
pulling the air out of aluminized mylar or thick polyethylene
sacks, then heat-sealing, is ok; if that's properly done, foods
keep ok months to years. For storing well-dried non-oily foods
at room temperature for similar times, the same technique works ok.
An oxygen absorber deals with trapped air and allows longer storage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_scavenger

But long-term storage, eg 30 years, at room-temperature, freeze
drying is about the best approach. The vacuum-freeze-dry process
(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeze-drying) doesn't collapse
food cells as much as heat-drying does, freeze-dried food weighs a
little less than heat-dried, and it rehydrates much more nicely
than heat-dried food.

See eg https://harvestright.com/store/ for some various at-home
freeze-drying models, $2300 to $4100 on sale. Of course most RCMers
could put together something that would work, for much less than that.
But if you are going to make a freeze dryer and run it full time,
several food batches per week, with different temperature and vacuum
vs time profiles for different foods, and depend on the unit making
food that's safe to eat, conveniently and dependably, that may run
the cost up into the same ballpark.

On the "Harvest Right Freeze Dryers" facebook page, water in the
vacuum-pump oil gets mentioned, as well as pump oil going where it
shouldn't be. The company has a recommended oil change schedule.
https://www.freezedryeraccessories.com/ sells a kit with valves
and filters to get water etc out of the pump oil after each batch.
https://harveyfilter.com/buy/ has a lower cost manual filter
system. These companies are in the SLC UT area -- LDS recommends
a three-month short-term food supply, plus a supply of long-lasting
(30 year) foods as well. https://www.lds.org/topics/food-storage

Anyhow, having your own freeze-dryer makes sense if you have a
bountiful garden and access to lots of produce or if you want
to make and store hundreds of servings of almost anything for
future consumption. Otherwise it's less expensive to order freeze
dried foods from companies like Augason Farms in SLC, although
Walmart at https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/freeze-dried-foods often
has the same prices as AF. Eg about $31 for a 25-year-shelf-life
#10 can with 24 servings of Augason chili-mac w/ freeze dried beef,
$23 for 14 servings of Freeze Dried Chicken Fettuccine Alfredo with
best-before date of 1 May 2042, $90-$100 for 307-serving AF 30-Day
All-In-One Emergency Survival Food Supply Kit, etc.

--
jiw

On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.

For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.

I bought a bunch of rigid plastic containers with vacuum inputs
at a garage sale and tried to learn how to use them.

I concluded that:
If you can't force the container into contact with the food,
the best you can do is to exclude air with vacuum.
The seal-a-meal vacuum pump I have couldn't do much better
than removing 2/3 of the air.
If Oxygen is what causes food to go bad, higher vacuum removes
more of it.
If you use higher vacuum, you suck moisture out of the food.
If that results in a puddle somewhere, that can't be good.
I assume you wouldn't want to wait long enough for all the
moisture to be removed by the pump.
Higher vacuum probably results in more air and/or pathogens
being sucked in over time thru tiny leaks.

A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.

Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible. I have been
pressure canning in jars for years and recently started using cans
instead of jars be cause of durability and light exclusion. The foods
that I pressure can get eaten on a regular basis, they just cycle
through the pantry. But since I do live near a pretty big fault and an
earthquake is possible I think I need to have a months worth of food
stored that I don't need to worry about. Hence very dry. And water
stored as well for the same month. Eventually I will have the water,
dry food, and conventional fully cooked and canned food enough for a
month set away.
Eric

On Fri, 5 May 2017 04:56:35 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:
On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, etpm@whidbey... wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, clare@snyder... wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, etpm@whidbey... wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. [... I'm]
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. [...]
So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor

How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work? Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but
the pump will deteriorate with use.

Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the [reefer] types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.
For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.
[...] A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.
...

If the goal is storing frozen foods while avoiding freezer burn,
pulling the air out of aluminized mylar or thick polyethylene
sacks, then heat-sealing, is ok; if that's properly done, foods
keep ok months to years. For storing well-dried non-oily foods
at room temperature for similar times, the same technique works ok.
An oxygen absorber deals with trapped air and allows longer storage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_scavenger

But long-term storage, eg 30 years, at room-temperature, freeze
drying is about the best approach. The vacuum-freeze-dry process
(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeze-drying) doesn't collapse
food cells as much as heat-drying does, freeze-dried food weighs a
little less than heat-dried, and it rehydrates much more nicely
than heat-dried food.

See eg https://harvestright.com/store/ for some various at-home
freeze-drying models, $2300 to $4100 on sale. Of course most RCMers
could put together something that would work, for much less than that.
But if you are going to make a freeze dryer and run it full time,
several food batches per week, with different temperature and vacuum
vs time profiles for different foods, and depend on the unit making
food that's safe to eat, conveniently and dependably, that may run
the cost up into the same ballpark.

On the "Harvest Right Freeze Dryers" facebook page, water in the
vacuum-pump oil gets mentioned, as well as pump oil going where it
shouldn't be. The company has a recommended oil change schedule.
https://www.freezedryeraccessories.com/ sells a kit with valves
and filters to get water etc out of the pump oil after each batch.
https://harveyfilter.com/buy/ has a lower cost manual filter
system. These companies are in the SLC UT area -- LDS recommends
a three-month short-term food supply, plus a supply of long-lasting
(30 year) foods as well. https://www.lds.org/topics/food-storage

Anyhow, having your own freeze-dryer makes sense if you have a
bountiful garden and access to lots of produce or if you want
to make and store hundreds of servings of almost anything for
future consumption. Otherwise it's less expensive to order freeze
dried foods from companies like Augason Farms in SLC, although
Walmart at https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/freeze-dried-foods often
has the same prices as AF. Eg about $31 for a 25-year-shelf-life
#10 can with 24 servings of Augason chili-mac w/ freeze dried beef,
$23 for 14 servings of Freeze Dried Chicken Fettuccine Alfredo with
best-before date of 1 May 2042, $90-$100 for 307-serving AF 30-Day
All-In-One Emergency Survival Food Supply Kit, etc.
Thanks for all the good info James. There are dietary issues my wife
has but I'll bet most if not all will be addressed with the foods
available now. So much "prepper" and "survivalist" stuff is hyped now
prices on a lot of stuff is way high. The LDS does offer some stuff
and there is a store not too far away from me. I don't know if the
effort to freeze dry myselfwould be worth it except just to say I did
it and could do it again. But that's exactly the kind of thing I like
to do and I would imagine freeze drying a few months worth of food
wouldn't be that big of a deal.
Thanks Again,
Eric

On Fri, 5 May 2017 01:49:33 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
wrote:

wrote:
So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good

The principal drawback is volumetric efficiency. Reefer compressors are
usually piston-type with finite compression ratio. Vacuum pumps are
usually rotary vane types with (ideally) infinite compression ratio.

Whether that matters depends entirely on the base pressure you want to
achieve. For food, the base pressure will be around the vapor pressure
of water. At room temperature that's about 20 torr. A piston compressor
needs a compression ratio of roughly 40 to get there when exhausting to
atmosphere, and its efficiency is zero in that limit.

40 seems like a rather high compression ratio, purely from a mechanical
point of view. It would be surprising if a reefer compressor is that good.

hth,

bob prohaska
Apparently the air conditioner compressors are usually the vane type
while refers use pistons. Here in the US that is.
Eric

On 5/5/2017 8:25 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.

For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.

I bought a bunch of rigid plastic containers with vacuum inputs
at a garage sale and tried to learn how to use them.

I concluded that:
If you can't force the container into contact with the food,
the best you can do is to exclude air with vacuum.
The seal-a-meal vacuum pump I have couldn't do much better
than removing 2/3 of the air.
If Oxygen is what causes food to go bad, higher vacuum removes
more of it.
If you use higher vacuum, you suck moisture out of the food.
If that results in a puddle somewhere, that can't be good.
I assume you wouldn't want to wait long enough for all the
moisture to be removed by the pump.
Higher vacuum probably results in more air and/or pathogens
being sucked in over time thru tiny leaks.

A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.

Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible. I have been
pressure canning in jars for years and recently started using cans
instead of jars be cause of durability and light exclusion. The foods
that I pressure can get eaten on a regular basis, they just cycle
through the pantry. But since I do live near a pretty big fault and an
earthquake is possible I think I need to have a months worth of food
stored that I don't need to worry about. Hence very dry. And water
stored as well for the same month. Eventually I will have the water,
dry food, and conventional fully cooked and canned food enough for a
month set away.
Eric

This is the wrong place for this discussion, but what the hell...
A couple of years ago, I realized that I was totally unprepared,
so I looked into it.
I decided that I needed a stockpile of heirloom seeds and some
practice farming.
I downloaded a book on how to do some doctor/health stuff.
I'd need at least a year worth of food to get the garden growing.
I'd need a lot of stuff to barter. Bank account is useless if
the bank no longer exists.
The more physical stuff you have, the more you need an army
to protect it.

Thought about it and decided that disasters run the gamut from
highly personal, (your house explodes) to cataclysmic (nuclear war
or meteor hit).

I don't live on an island, so up to a certain point, I can
grab the cash under the mattress, get in my car and go where
the disaster isn't.
Past a certain point, I'm unlikely to survive, no matter what I do.

You can prepare for the range between those two points.
I concluded that the range of disaster that lies between
those points isn't very large. Preparation would require
moving to the country, building a farm compound, recruiting
professionals, like a doctor, farmer...
That's not practical for most of us. The cost/benefit ratio
is extremely high. I don't want to live out my life like that
just in case, maybe, possibly there might be a survivable
disaster.

The post-apocalyptic world belongs not to the one with a year's
supply of dried food. It belongs to the one with gang affiliation
and the most ammo.

Excuse me, I gotta go to WalMart and pick up some stuff
with a lot of sugar and saturated fat...I should probably
pick up some ammo...
;-)

On Fri, 05 May 2017 13:48:28 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/5/2017 8:25 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.

For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.

I bought a bunch of rigid plastic containers with vacuum inputs
at a garage sale and tried to learn how to use them.

I concluded that:
If you can't force the container into contact with the food,
the best you can do is to exclude air with vacuum.
The seal-a-meal vacuum pump I have couldn't do much better
than removing 2/3 of the air.
If Oxygen is what causes food to go bad, higher vacuum removes
more of it.
If you use higher vacuum, you suck moisture out of the food.
If that results in a puddle somewhere, that can't be good.
I assume you wouldn't want to wait long enough for all the
moisture to be removed by the pump.
Higher vacuum probably results in more air and/or pathogens
being sucked in over time thru tiny leaks.

A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.

Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible. I have been
pressure canning in jars for years and recently started using cans
instead of jars be cause of durability and light exclusion. The foods
that I pressure can get eaten on a regular basis, they just cycle
through the pantry. But since I do live near a pretty big fault and an
earthquake is possible I think I need to have a months worth of food
stored that I don't need to worry about. Hence very dry. And water
stored as well for the same month. Eventually I will have the water,
dry food, and conventional fully cooked and canned food enough for a
month set away.
Eric

This is the wrong place for this discussion, but what the hell...
A couple of years ago, I realized that I was totally unprepared,
so I looked into it.
I decided that I needed a stockpile of heirloom seeds and some
practice farming.
I downloaded a book on how to do some doctor/health stuff.
I'd need at least a year worth of food to get the garden growing.
I'd need a lot of stuff to barter. Bank account is useless if
the bank no longer exists.
The more physical stuff you have, the more you need an army
to protect it.

Thought about it and decided that disasters run the gamut from
highly personal, (your house explodes) to cataclysmic (nuclear war
or meteor hit).

I don't live on an island, so up to a certain point, I can
grab the cash under the mattress, get in my car and go where
the disaster isn't.
Past a certain point, I'm unlikely to survive, no matter what I do.

You can prepare for the range between those two points.
I concluded that the range of disaster that lies between
those points isn't very large. Preparation would require
moving to the country, building a farm compound, recruiting
professionals, like a doctor, farmer...
That's not practical for most of us. The cost/benefit ratio
is extremely high. I don't want to live out my life like that
just in case, maybe, possibly there might be a survivable
disaster.

The post-apocalyptic world belongs not to the one with a year's
supply of dried food. It belongs to the one with gang affiliation
and the most ammo.

Excuse me, I gotta go to WalMart and pick up some stuff
with a lot of sugar and saturated fat...I should probably
pick up some ammo...
;-)

I just wanna be prepared in case of a temporary disaster situation. My
neighbors may not have what they need so I may need to help them with
food and water. I don't expect a month of food is what my wife and I
would need, but it may be what us and some neighbors need. I am on an
island, and on a well. Earthquakes can disrupt wells. So water storage
is a must. If it all really goes to hell then I'll be oughta luck.
Eric

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 4:49:55 PM UTC-4, mike wrote:
On 5/5/2017 8:25 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.

For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.

I bought a bunch of rigid plastic containers with vacuum inputs
at a garage sale and tried to learn how to use them.

I concluded that:
If you can't force the container into contact with the food,
the best you can do is to exclude air with vacuum.
The seal-a-meal vacuum pump I have couldn't do much better
than removing 2/3 of the air.
If Oxygen is what causes food to go bad, higher vacuum removes
more of it.
If you use higher vacuum, you suck moisture out of the food.
If that results in a puddle somewhere, that can't be good.
I assume you wouldn't want to wait long enough for all the
moisture to be removed by the pump.
Higher vacuum probably results in more air and/or pathogens
being sucked in over time thru tiny leaks.

A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.

Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible. I have been
pressure canning in jars for years and recently started using cans
instead of jars be cause of durability and light exclusion. The foods
that I pressure can get eaten on a regular basis, they just cycle
through the pantry. But since I do live near a pretty big fault and an
earthquake is possible I think I need to have a months worth of food
stored that I don't need to worry about. Hence very dry. And water
stored as well for the same month. Eventually I will have the water,
dry food, and conventional fully cooked and canned food enough for a
month set away.
Eric

This is the wrong place for this discussion, but what the hell...
A couple of years ago, I realized that I was totally unprepared,
so I looked into it.
I decided that I needed a stockpile of heirloom seeds and some
practice farming.
I downloaded a book on how to do some doctor/health stuff.
I'd need at least a year worth of food to get the garden growing.
I'd need a lot of stuff to barter. Bank account is useless if
the bank no longer exists.
The more physical stuff you have, the more you need an army
to protect it.

Thought about it and decided that disasters run the gamut from
highly personal, (your house explodes) to cataclysmic (nuclear war
or meteor hit).

I don't live on an island, so up to a certain point, I can
grab the cash under the mattress, get in my car and go where
the disaster isn't.
Past a certain point, I'm unlikely to survive, no matter what I do.

You can prepare for the range between those two points.
I concluded that the range of disaster that lies between
those points isn't very large. Preparation would require
moving to the country, building a farm compound, recruiting
professionals, like a doctor, farmer...
That's not practical for most of us. The cost/benefit ratio
is extremely high. I don't want to live out my life like that
just in case, maybe, possibly there might be a survivable
disaster.

The post-apocalyptic world belongs not to the one with a year's
supply of dried food. It belongs to the one with gang affiliation
and the most ammo.

Excuse me, I gotta go to WalMart and pick up some stuff
with a lot of sugar and saturated fat...I should probably
pick up some ammo...
;-)

+10

Somebody is using his head, unlike the average "prepper." And the older we get (like me), the more absurd the entire paranoid enterprise looks.

BTW, make sure that the ammo you buy is US-made. You don't want to boost someone else's economy. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 5 May 2017 16:31:58 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 4:49:55 PM UTC-4, mike wrote:
On 5/5/2017 8:25 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.

For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.

I bought a bunch of rigid plastic containers with vacuum inputs
at a garage sale and tried to learn how to use them.

I concluded that:
If you can't force the container into contact with the food,
the best you can do is to exclude air with vacuum.
The seal-a-meal vacuum pump I have couldn't do much better
than removing 2/3 of the air.
If Oxygen is what causes food to go bad, higher vacuum removes
more of it.
If you use higher vacuum, you suck moisture out of the food.
If that results in a puddle somewhere, that can't be good.
I assume you wouldn't want to wait long enough for all the
moisture to be removed by the pump.
Higher vacuum probably results in more air and/or pathogens
being sucked in over time thru tiny leaks.

A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.

Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible. I have been
pressure canning in jars for years and recently started using cans
instead of jars be cause of durability and light exclusion. The foods
that I pressure can get eaten on a regular basis, they just cycle
through the pantry. But since I do live near a pretty big fault and an
earthquake is possible I think I need to have a months worth of food
stored that I don't need to worry about. Hence very dry. And water
stored as well for the same month. Eventually I will have the water,
dry food, and conventional fully cooked and canned food enough for a
month set away.
Eric

This is the wrong place for this discussion, but what the hell...
A couple of years ago, I realized that I was totally unprepared,
so I looked into it.
I decided that I needed a stockpile of heirloom seeds and some
practice farming.
I downloaded a book on how to do some doctor/health stuff.
I'd need at least a year worth of food to get the garden growing.
I'd need a lot of stuff to barter. Bank account is useless if
the bank no longer exists.
The more physical stuff you have, the more you need an army
to protect it.

Thought about it and decided that disasters run the gamut from
highly personal, (your house explodes) to cataclysmic (nuclear war
or meteor hit).

I don't live on an island, so up to a certain point, I can
grab the cash under the mattress, get in my car and go where
the disaster isn't.
Past a certain point, I'm unlikely to survive, no matter what I do.

You can prepare for the range between those two points.
I concluded that the range of disaster that lies between
those points isn't very large. Preparation would require
moving to the country, building a farm compound, recruiting
professionals, like a doctor, farmer...
That's not practical for most of us. The cost/benefit ratio
is extremely high. I don't want to live out my life like that
just in case, maybe, possibly there might be a survivable
disaster.

The post-apocalyptic world belongs not to the one with a year's
supply of dried food. It belongs to the one with gang affiliation
and the most ammo.

Excuse me, I gotta go to WalMart and pick up some stuff
with a lot of sugar and saturated fat...I should probably
pick up some ammo...
;-)

+10

Somebody is using his head, unlike the average "prepper." And the older we get (like me), the more absurd the entire paranoid enterprise looks.

BTW, make sure that the ammo you buy is US-made. You don't want to boost someone else's economy. d8-)
Yeah, I see a lot of preppers that are old dudes but their behaviour
is like a teenage boy's fantasies of saving the world and getting the
girl.
Eric

BobH wrote:
On 05/04/2017 08:48 AM, wrote:
All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric

Mechanical vacuum pumps tend to backstream pump oil when the pressure
starts getting down. You commonly use a cold trap (LN2) in applications
that won't tolerate pump oil in the vac chamber. Might add a strange
taste to the food!

This is a way bigger problem than you might expect. Proper vacuum pumps
emit noxious oil mists too especially when pumping down stuff that's wet
and won't allow a hard vacuum anyways. There are good quality clear oils
that don't smell as as bad as others, but it's still gross.

On Fri, 05 May 2017 08:25:06 -0700, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.

For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.

I bought a bunch of rigid plastic containers with vacuum inputs
at a garage sale and tried to learn how to use them.

I concluded that:
If you can't force the container into contact with the food,
the best you can do is to exclude air with vacuum.
The seal-a-meal vacuum pump I have couldn't do much better
than removing 2/3 of the air.
If Oxygen is what causes food to go bad, higher vacuum removes
more of it.
If you use higher vacuum, you suck moisture out of the food.
If that results in a puddle somewhere, that can't be good.
I assume you wouldn't want to wait long enough for all the
moisture to be removed by the pump.
Higher vacuum probably results in more air and/or pathogens
being sucked in over time thru tiny leaks.

A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.

Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible. I have been
pressure canning in jars for years and recently started using cans
instead of jars be cause of durability and light exclusion. The foods
that I pressure can get eaten on a regular basis, they just cycle
through the pantry. But since I do live near a pretty big fault and an
earthquake is possible I think I need to have a months worth of food
stored that I don't need to worry about. Hence very dry. And water
stored as well for the same month. Eventually I will have the water,
dry food, and conventional fully cooked and canned food enough for a
month set away.
Eric

Shoot for 6 months supply. You will have unexpected visitors who are
hungry and will eat up a lot of your supply in the event of an
emergency.

Noodles, beans, and similar "dry goods" store very well for a very
long time, with either nitrogen or argon purge of the container before
closure. They provide reasonable nutrition, are easy to prepare even
wtih minimal heat sources. And be sure to put up at least one drum of
water in a suitable plastic food grade barrel. I keep 100 gallons on
hand.






---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Fri, 05 May 2017 13:48:28 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/5/2017 8:25 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.

For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.

I bought a bunch of rigid plastic containers with vacuum inputs
at a garage sale and tried to learn how to use them.

I concluded that:
If you can't force the container into contact with the food,
the best you can do is to exclude air with vacuum.
The seal-a-meal vacuum pump I have couldn't do much better
than removing 2/3 of the air.
If Oxygen is what causes food to go bad, higher vacuum removes
more of it.
If you use higher vacuum, you suck moisture out of the food.
If that results in a puddle somewhere, that can't be good.
I assume you wouldn't want to wait long enough for all the
moisture to be removed by the pump.
Higher vacuum probably results in more air and/or pathogens
being sucked in over time thru tiny leaks.

A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.

Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible. I have been
pressure canning in jars for years and recently started using cans
instead of jars be cause of durability and light exclusion. The foods
that I pressure can get eaten on a regular basis, they just cycle
through the pantry. But since I do live near a pretty big fault and an
earthquake is possible I think I need to have a months worth of food
stored that I don't need to worry about. Hence very dry. And water
stored as well for the same month. Eventually I will have the water,
dry food, and conventional fully cooked and canned food enough for a
month set away.
Eric

This is the wrong place for this discussion, but what the hell...
A couple of years ago, I realized that I was totally unprepared,
so I looked into it.
I decided that I needed a stockpile of heirloom seeds and some
practice farming.
I downloaded a book on how to do some doctor/health stuff.
I'd need at least a year worth of food to get the garden growing.
I'd need a lot of stuff to barter. Bank account is useless if
the bank no longer exists.
The more physical stuff you have, the more you need an army
to protect it.

Thought about it and decided that disasters run the gamut from
highly personal, (your house explodes) to cataclysmic (nuclear war
or meteor hit).

I don't live on an island, so up to a certain point, I can
grab the cash under the mattress, get in my car and go where
the disaster isn't.
Past a certain point, I'm unlikely to survive, no matter what I do.

You can prepare for the range between those two points.
I concluded that the range of disaster that lies between
those points isn't very large. Preparation would require
moving to the country, building a farm compound, recruiting
professionals, like a doctor, farmer...
That's not practical for most of us. The cost/benefit ratio
is extremely high. I don't want to live out my life like that
just in case, maybe, possibly there might be a survivable
disaster.

The post-apocalyptic world belongs not to the one with a year's
supply of dried food. It belongs to the one with gang affiliation
and the most ammo.

Actually..it belongs to the person who lives in a rural area with good
soil and water, to plant crops . And local friends who can alert
each other in the rare event a group of gang members comes through
looking for easy pickings from people with no guns and ammo.

Excuse me, I gotta go to WalMart and pick up some stuff
with a lot of sugar and saturated fat...I should probably
pick up some ammo...
;-)

At minimum....243 or simpliar with a bullet that allows you to hit a
human being at 500 yrds reliably. You dont have to "kill", you simply
have to cripple as many as possible. An ax works fine for finishing
them off, as does a good ball pien hammer.

And your group should plant them in an area that is suitable for
composting fertilizer.

The concensus of the survivalist community...if one can be determined
with any accuracy..is it wont be nuclear war..but a nice big EMP over
Kansas, turning off the lights and power for 2 to 10 yrs






---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Fri, 05 May 2017 15:20:05 -0700, wrote:

On Fri, 05 May 2017 13:48:28 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/5/2017 8:25 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.

For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.

I bought a bunch of rigid plastic containers with vacuum inputs
at a garage sale and tried to learn how to use them.

I concluded that:
If you can't force the container into contact with the food,
the best you can do is to exclude air with vacuum.
The seal-a-meal vacuum pump I have couldn't do much better
than removing 2/3 of the air.
If Oxygen is what causes food to go bad, higher vacuum removes
more of it.
If you use higher vacuum, you suck moisture out of the food.
If that results in a puddle somewhere, that can't be good.
I assume you wouldn't want to wait long enough for all the
moisture to be removed by the pump.
Higher vacuum probably results in more air and/or pathogens
being sucked in over time thru tiny leaks.

A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.

Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible. I have been
pressure canning in jars for years and recently started using cans
instead of jars be cause of durability and light exclusion. The foods
that I pressure can get eaten on a regular basis, they just cycle
through the pantry. But since I do live near a pretty big fault and an
earthquake is possible I think I need to have a months worth of food
stored that I don't need to worry about. Hence very dry. And water
stored as well for the same month. Eventually I will have the water,
dry food, and conventional fully cooked and canned food enough for a
month set away.
Eric

This is the wrong place for this discussion, but what the hell...
A couple of years ago, I realized that I was totally unprepared,
so I looked into it.
I decided that I needed a stockpile of heirloom seeds and some
practice farming.
I downloaded a book on how to do some doctor/health stuff.
I'd need at least a year worth of food to get the garden growing.
I'd need a lot of stuff to barter. Bank account is useless if
the bank no longer exists.
The more physical stuff you have, the more you need an army
to protect it.

Thought about it and decided that disasters run the gamut from
highly personal, (your house explodes) to cataclysmic (nuclear war
or meteor hit).

I don't live on an island, so up to a certain point, I can
grab the cash under the mattress, get in my car and go where
the disaster isn't.
Past a certain point, I'm unlikely to survive, no matter what I do.

You can prepare for the range between those two points.
I concluded that the range of disaster that lies between
those points isn't very large. Preparation would require
moving to the country, building a farm compound, recruiting
professionals, like a doctor, farmer...
That's not practical for most of us. The cost/benefit ratio
is extremely high. I don't want to live out my life like that
just in case, maybe, possibly there might be a survivable
disaster.

The post-apocalyptic world belongs not to the one with a year's
supply of dried food. It belongs to the one with gang affiliation
and the most ammo.

Excuse me, I gotta go to WalMart and pick up some stuff
with a lot of sugar and saturated fat...I should probably
pick up some ammo...
;-)

I just wanna be prepared in case of a temporary disaster situation. My
neighbors may not have what they need so I may need to help them with
food and water. I don't expect a month of food is what my wife and I
would need, but it may be what us and some neighbors need. I am on an
island, and on a well. Earthquakes can disrupt wells. So water storage
is a must. If it all really goes to hell then I'll be oughta luck.
Eric

My wife and I rode out the Coalinga Earthquake back in 1983. We had 6
months supply of food, well stored and properly contained. It lasted
almost 3 weeks, as we were the only people on our block who had more
than 3-4 days worth of groceries in their kitchen. Just a heads up.

http://www.sjvgeology.org/geology/co...arthquake.html

Gunner, a regular on misc.survivalism and alt.survival...for over 20
yrs


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Fri, 05 May 2017 08:25:06 -0700, wrote:


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible.

Yes, you must use milli-torr levels of vacuum. I used to do
industrial refrigeration on the side and I've worked on some
industrial size freeze-drying equipment.

The food must be frozen as rapidly as possible to at least -40 to
prevent cell damage and maintain the food texture and flavor. Then a
vacuum considerably lower than the vapor pressure of water at the
operating temperature must be applied.

Ice's vapor pressure at -40 is about 25 milli-Torr. You'll need to go
below that to achieve any speed.

I don't recall the operating pressure of this plant but the vacuum
system consisted of large turbomolecular pumps backed by LN2 moisture
traps and large rotary vane roughing pumps.

I'm really surprised at the low prices of the Harvest Right home
freeze dryers. I have a vacuum system in my lab capable of 10E-6 Torr
and I know what the used equipment cost. They must be skimping on a
number of things. For sure they don't have a cold trap or else
moisture would not reach the backing pump. The backing pump looks
like a chicom knockoff of an Alcatel.

In any event, neither freeze drying nor any of the other stuff
survivalists are doing are required to survive a month. The key is a
whole-house generator and a propane tank large enough to run it for
about twice your anticipated outage - just in case. And a month or
so's supply of food.

With a whole house generator, your refrigerator, freezer, induction
range (or gas range if you must), your well pump and your HVAC all
continue to work as normal.

I live in a place way back in the Tellico mountains called Green Cove.
25 miles from nowhere. based on experience I keep a couple of months'
supply of food on hand. Two medium sized freezers for my meats and
ordinary canned goods for the rest of the supply.

I have some freeze-dried meals from Wal-mart mainly because we both
like them and they are VERY quick to fix when we're tired and don't
want to cook. I have a hot/cold water dispenser that dispenses from a
5 gallon jug so fixing a freeze dried meal consists of tearing open
the package, holding it under the hot water spigot and filling the bag
up to the line.

I have a 250 gallon Cubitainer out back beside the generator. This
holds enough water if our well pump goes out to give me time to get
someone in to fix it or in an emergency I (slowly) fix it myself. I
do keep a spare well pump and plenty of PVC tubing. My pump is
oversized because I have it set up for firefighting with a 2" hose
standpipe away from the cabin and a switch to route power away from
the breaker panel and directly to the pump from the generator.

My generator is a 10kW propane powered, automatic transfer Onan unit.
I have a recording power quality analyzer and I used that to determine
what the peak and usual power demands were. I then talked to an Onan
engineer who recommended a 22 (or maybe it was 24kW) generator.

I looked at the fuel consumption figures and said Nyet! The automatic
transfer switch has 3 load shedding relays that shed one load after
another if the generator is overloaded. I connected the electric
water heater to the first stage (4kW) and the wellpump (about 2.5kW to
the second one.

Based on experience, I should have bought a 12kW unit. The water
heater gets shed whenever someone is showering (water heater and well
pump) at the same time the 2.5 ton AC is running. No big deal. It
simply requires longer recovery before the next person can shower.

I did some other things too. I put a soft starter on the AC
compressor and designed a little sequencer that starts the compressor,
the condenser fan and evaporator fan at 5 second intervals. A soft
starter is headed for the well pump but I haven't had time to get one
and install it.

I bought a 500 gallon propane tank. If I had it to do over again I'd
get a direct burial 1000 tank. The reason is the propane company
doesn't like to make a trip up to fill a tank unless the level
indicator is at or below 30%. 30% of 500 gallons ain't all that much
run time.

The system cost me about $6,000 with me doing the installation. I
paid a contractor to install the transfer switch because that has to
be permitted and the service entrance cut into. I can pull a permit
but I'd rather have the inspector see a "good ole boy" rather than a
stranger. Worked out perfectly.

IOW, for about the cost of that decent size freeze dryer plus a hoard
of food and water that I'd have to store and keep rotated for
freshness, I installed a system that lets me lead a normal life during
an emergency. Multiple emergencies.

Right now is a good example. Thursday morning we had a high speed
wind storm with linear wind speeds of 85 MPH recorded. The wind took
down a huge tree that clipped the corner of my neighbor's cabin and
took down the utility service, primary and secondary. My place lit
back up in 15 seconds.

I helped cut the trees off our 25 mile access road. Using an electric
chain saw and permanently mounted 2.5kW inverter in my truck, of
course. No smelly gasoline to mess with or keep fresh and no saw to
try to start in cold weather. When it was over with we counted 96
trees down. I cut about 10 of those.

OH, and BTW, the power is still off. I can imagine what that 25 mile
right-of-way looked like. I saw all-terrain utility line trucks
access the ROW next to my hour about an hour ago so maybe power will
be on in the AM. Meanwhile we've lived live normally with only a
couple of exceptions. We've allowed some of our neighbors to grab a
warm shower and wash clothes.

The worst we've ever had was the blizzard of '93 that dropped 2 feet
of snow on an area more used to a foot the whole winter. The road was
blocked with so many trees and ice that it was closed for 12 days. The
power was off several more days.

I had an extremely quiet RV generator mounted on a cart that I rolled
out of the garage to operate. It was set up to run on outboard motor
gas tanks so no pouring gasoline. I had 5 7 gallon tanks. I ended up
pumping gasoline from my truck even with running the generator only
part of each day. That sealed the deal for a propane generator.

More than one way to skin a cat!

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

On Sat, 06 May 2017 08:26:27 -0700, wrote:

On Fri, 5 May 2017 16:31:58 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 4:49:55 PM UTC-4, mike wrote:
On 5/5/2017 8:25 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. I know I can
buy a Chinese 3 cfm two stage pump good for 25 microns or so for about
$160.00. I have seen these reviewed and they are pretty noisy. The air
conditioner and refrigerator compressors are much quieter. I'm not
looking for a vacuum source for vacuum chucking, but am instead
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. To do this I would stack cans in my
big pressure canner with the lids in place. Using a plastic lid I
could watch the process. I already have the plexiglass material for
the lid that's plenty stout enough for the job. If the can lids won't
retain their seal when I run them through the can sealing machine I'll
just resort back to glass. So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor besides getting my hands on a good
one without having to let all the refrigerant out into the atmosphere,
which I am not willing to do.
Thanks,
Eric
How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work?
Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but the pump will
deteriorate with use.
Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the refer types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.

For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.

I bought a bunch of rigid plastic containers with vacuum inputs
at a garage sale and tried to learn how to use them.

I concluded that:
If you can't force the container into contact with the food,
the best you can do is to exclude air with vacuum.
The seal-a-meal vacuum pump I have couldn't do much better
than removing 2/3 of the air.
If Oxygen is what causes food to go bad, higher vacuum removes
more of it.
If you use higher vacuum, you suck moisture out of the food.
If that results in a puddle somewhere, that can't be good.
I assume you wouldn't want to wait long enough for all the
moisture to be removed by the pump.
Higher vacuum probably results in more air and/or pathogens
being sucked in over time thru tiny leaks.

A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.

Bottom line is that my rigid vacuum sealed containers are
sitting quietly in the attic awaiting my next garage sale.


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible. I have been
pressure canning in jars for years and recently started using cans
instead of jars be cause of durability and light exclusion. The foods
that I pressure can get eaten on a regular basis, they just cycle
through the pantry. But since I do live near a pretty big fault and an
earthquake is possible I think I need to have a months worth of food
stored that I don't need to worry about. Hence very dry. And water
stored as well for the same month. Eventually I will have the water,
dry food, and conventional fully cooked and canned food enough for a
month set away.
Eric

This is the wrong place for this discussion, but what the hell...
A couple of years ago, I realized that I was totally unprepared,
so I looked into it.
I decided that I needed a stockpile of heirloom seeds and some
practice farming.
I downloaded a book on how to do some doctor/health stuff.
I'd need at least a year worth of food to get the garden growing.
I'd need a lot of stuff to barter. Bank account is useless if
the bank no longer exists.
The more physical stuff you have, the more you need an army
to protect it.

Thought about it and decided that disasters run the gamut from
highly personal, (your house explodes) to cataclysmic (nuclear war
or meteor hit).

I don't live on an island, so up to a certain point, I can
grab the cash under the mattress, get in my car and go where
the disaster isn't.
Past a certain point, I'm unlikely to survive, no matter what I do.

You can prepare for the range between those two points.
I concluded that the range of disaster that lies between
those points isn't very large. Preparation would require
moving to the country, building a farm compound, recruiting
professionals, like a doctor, farmer...
That's not practical for most of us. The cost/benefit ratio
is extremely high. I don't want to live out my life like that
just in case, maybe, possibly there might be a survivable
disaster.

The post-apocalyptic world belongs not to the one with a year's
supply of dried food. It belongs to the one with gang affiliation
and the most ammo.

Excuse me, I gotta go to WalMart and pick up some stuff
with a lot of sugar and saturated fat...I should probably
pick up some ammo...
;-)

+10

Somebody is using his head, unlike the average "prepper." And the older we get (like me), the more absurd the entire paranoid enterprise looks.

BTW, make sure that the ammo you buy is US-made. You don't want to boost someone else's economy. d8-)
Yeah, I see a lot of preppers that are old dudes but their behaviour
is like a teenage boy's fantasies of saving the world and getting the
girl.
Eric

The fact that they are Old Dudes means that they have, despite their
fantasies....survived this long, in many cases...despite long odds
against it.

I buy a small amount of ammo, some of it is foreign made. 440rds of
7.62x39 from the Slovaks is still under $100 if you know where to look
and it still goes Bang, quite nicely. I generally load 99% of my
centerfire ammo, using American made bullets, American made powders
and US made primers...often..but not always..in US made cases.

Ive taken Berdan cases and converted them to Boxer with some good
sucess and have experimented doing this with steel cases, which works,
but should be considered a "worst case" procedure.

I also cast bullets for EVERY firearm I own. I have about 3000 lbs of
wheelweights on hand along with another 600 or so pounds of pure lead,
suitable for blackpowder projectiles and air rifle slugs. I have
some 57 different bullet molds, from 55gr 22 spitzers through 600 gr
..459 spitzers up to round molds for fishing weights from 1 oz through
2 lbs. The 2 oz mold casts a very nice projectile suitable for use in
a sling. But..you are not an Old Dude..and probably dont know what a
"sling"/nonfirearm actually is. Shrug

Which reminds me..I have a quantity of 6.5 Jap and 7.7 Jap brand new
brass available..but sadly...its that crappy foreign made Lapua junk.
Maybe I can find an Old Dude who isnt picky......






---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

wrote:
Apparently the air conditioner compressors are usually the vane type
while refers use pistons. Here in the US that is.
Eric

That's a little surprising, but if correct then a vane type AC
compressor ought to work fairly well as a single stage vacuum
pump. The only thing to watch out for is the vapor pressure of
the lubricant, but it's unlikely to be a problem.

hth,

bob prohaska

On Sat, 06 May 2017 19:56:42 -0400, Neon John wrote:

On Fri, 05 May 2017 08:25:06 -0700, wrote:


I don't know how high a vacuum I ned. Certainly not milli torr levels.
But the food will be as dry as I can make it befaore vacuum packing.
The vacuum is to just remove as much oxygen as possible.

Yes, you must use milli-torr levels of vacuum. I used to do
industrial refrigeration on the side and I've worked on some
industrial size freeze-drying equipment.

The food must be frozen as rapidly as possible to at least -40 to
prevent cell damage and maintain the food texture and flavor. Then a
vacuum considerably lower than the vapor pressure of water at the
operating temperature must be applied.

Ice's vapor pressure at -40 is about 25 milli-Torr. You'll need to go
below that to achieve any speed.

I don't recall the operating pressure of this plant but the vacuum
system consisted of large turbomolecular pumps backed by LN2 moisture
traps and large rotary vane roughing pumps.

I'm really surprised at the low prices of the Harvest Right home
freeze dryers. I have a vacuum system in my lab capable of 10E-6 Torr
and I know what the used equipment cost. They must be skimping on a
number of things. For sure they don't have a cold trap or else
moisture would not reach the backing pump. The backing pump looks
like a chicom knockoff of an Alcatel.

In any event, neither freeze drying nor any of the other stuff
survivalists are doing are required to survive a month. The key is a
whole-house generator and a propane tank large enough to run it for
about twice your anticipated outage - just in case. And a month or
so's supply of food.

With a whole house generator, your refrigerator, freezer, induction
range (or gas range if you must), your well pump and your HVAC all
continue to work as normal.

I live in a place way back in the Tellico mountains called Green Cove.
25 miles from nowhere. based on experience I keep a couple of months'
supply of food on hand. Two medium sized freezers for my meats and
ordinary canned goods for the rest of the supply.

I have some freeze-dried meals from Wal-mart mainly because we both
like them and they are VERY quick to fix when we're tired and don't
want to cook. I have a hot/cold water dispenser that dispenses from a
5 gallon jug so fixing a freeze dried meal consists of tearing open
the package, holding it under the hot water spigot and filling the bag
up to the line.

I have a 250 gallon Cubitainer out back beside the generator. This
holds enough water if our well pump goes out to give me time to get
someone in to fix it or in an emergency I (slowly) fix it myself. I
do keep a spare well pump and plenty of PVC tubing. My pump is
oversized because I have it set up for firefighting with a 2" hose
standpipe away from the cabin and a switch to route power away from
the breaker panel and directly to the pump from the generator.

My generator is a 10kW propane powered, automatic transfer Onan unit.
I have a recording power quality analyzer and I used that to determine
what the peak and usual power demands were. I then talked to an Onan
engineer who recommended a 22 (or maybe it was 24kW) generator.

I looked at the fuel consumption figures and said Nyet! The automatic
transfer switch has 3 load shedding relays that shed one load after
another if the generator is overloaded. I connected the electric
water heater to the first stage (4kW) and the wellpump (about 2.5kW to
the second one.

Based on experience, I should have bought a 12kW unit. The water
heater gets shed whenever someone is showering (water heater and well
pump) at the same time the 2.5 ton AC is running. No big deal. It
simply requires longer recovery before the next person can shower.

I did some other things too. I put a soft starter on the AC
compressor and designed a little sequencer that starts the compressor,
the condenser fan and evaporator fan at 5 second intervals. A soft
starter is headed for the well pump but I haven't had time to get one
and install it.

I bought a 500 gallon propane tank. If I had it to do over again I'd
get a direct burial 1000 tank. The reason is the propane company
doesn't like to make a trip up to fill a tank unless the level
indicator is at or below 30%. 30% of 500 gallons ain't all that much
run time.

The system cost me about $6,000 with me doing the installation. I
paid a contractor to install the transfer switch because that has to
be permitted and the service entrance cut into. I can pull a permit
but I'd rather have the inspector see a "good ole boy" rather than a
stranger. Worked out perfectly.

IOW, for about the cost of that decent size freeze dryer plus a hoard
of food and water that I'd have to store and keep rotated for
freshness, I installed a system that lets me lead a normal life during
an emergency. Multiple emergencies.

Right now is a good example. Thursday morning we had a high speed
wind storm with linear wind speeds of 85 MPH recorded. The wind took
down a huge tree that clipped the corner of my neighbor's cabin and
took down the utility service, primary and secondary. My place lit
back up in 15 seconds.

I helped cut the trees off our 25 mile access road. Using an electric
chain saw and permanently mounted 2.5kW inverter in my truck, of
course. No smelly gasoline to mess with or keep fresh and no saw to
try to start in cold weather. When it was over with we counted 96
trees down. I cut about 10 of those.

OH, and BTW, the power is still off. I can imagine what that 25 mile
right-of-way looked like. I saw all-terrain utility line trucks
access the ROW next to my hour about an hour ago so maybe power will
be on in the AM. Meanwhile we've lived live normally with only a
couple of exceptions. We've allowed some of our neighbors to grab a
warm shower and wash clothes.

The worst we've ever had was the blizzard of '93 that dropped 2 feet
of snow on an area more used to a foot the whole winter. The road was
blocked with so many trees and ice that it was closed for 12 days. The
power was off several more days.

I had an extremely quiet RV generator mounted on a cart that I rolled
out of the garage to operate. It was set up to run on outboard motor
gas tanks so no pouring gasoline. I had 5 7 gallon tanks. I ended up
pumping gasoline from my truck even with running the generator only
part of each day. That sealed the deal for a propane generator.

More than one way to skin a cat!

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address


Well done Sir! Well done indeed!


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 May 2017 15:55:12 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


How did you get water?

What...you dont keep any of the blue food grade plastic 55 gallon
drums filled with water? Blink blink

They are used to ship everything from jam and jelly to syrups and
wine. You can often find them for $10-20 each. Flush them out
with
Dawn detergent and a pressure washer, flush until they are clean and
then refill with your garden hose ...

Use a hose rated for drinking, else you may contaminate the water.
http://saferchemicals.org/newsroom/n...-garden-hoses/

-jsw

On Fri, 5 May 2017 04:56:35 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:
On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, etpm@whidbey... wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, clare@snyder... wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, etpm@whidbey... wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. [... I'm]
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. [...]
So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor

How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work? Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but
the pump will deteriorate with use.

Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the [reefer] types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.
For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.
[...] A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.
...

If the goal is storing frozen foods while avoiding freezer burn,
pulling the air out of aluminized mylar or thick polyethylene
sacks, then heat-sealing, is ok; if that's properly done, foods
keep ok months to years.

Yeah, but what's actually 'good'? Don't only the pro's do stuff like that for the service or for astronauts or for museums? It seems like food that old would eventually taste like a building material or like styrofoam or polystyrene. I mean, its not like you'll be eating at the Waffle House. It seems like it would be just easier to run across to another state where there is food or something.

On Sun, 7 May 2017 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Fri, 5 May 2017 04:56:35 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:39:10 -0700, mike wrote:
On 5/4/2017 9:39 AM, etpm@whidbey... wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 12:16:27 -0400, clare@snyder... wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 08:48:11 -0700, etpm@whidbey... wrote:

All over YouTube are examples of folks using either air conditioner
compressors or refrigerator compressors for vacuum pumps. [... I'm]
thinking of using one for vacuum infusing stuff. Like food. And also
of vacuum storage of dried foods. [...]
So what are the disadvantages of using a
repurposed refrigeration compressor

How are you going to address the lubrication of the compressor? In a
refrigeration system the lubricant circulates with the refrigerant to
circulate through the cyls. When used as a vacuum pump this does not
happen.

Will it work? Sure - for a while. How long? Who knows - but
the pump will deteriorate with use.

Actually, from what I have seen on YouTube, the compressor gets
adequate lube, especially the [reefer] types which actually have the
motor submerged in oil.

Won't you be sucking a lot of moisture? That can't be good.
I'd at least think about the possibility of getting vapors
from the compressor back into your food.

Educate me on the value of high vacuum food preservation.
For bag sealing like seal-a-meal, the purpose of the vacuum is to
EXCLUDE air by forcing the plastic into contact with solid chunks
of food, like chicken breast.
Once contact has been achieved, higher vacuum has no purpose.
I suggest it's a detriment.
The higher the vacuum, the more likely you'll hasten the exit
of water from the food into any voids that exist.
[...] A nitrogen purge might be better than trying to extract the
oxygen directly with a vacuum pump.
...

If the goal is storing frozen foods while avoiding freezer burn,
pulling the air out of aluminized mylar or thick polyethylene
sacks, then heat-sealing, is ok; if that's properly done, foods
keep ok months to years.

Yeah, but what's actually 'good'? Don't only the pro's do stuff like that for the service or for astronauts or for museums? It seems like food that old would eventually taste like a building material or like styrofoam or polystyrene. I mean, its not like you'll be eating at the Waffle House. It seems like it would be just easier to run across to another state where there is food or something.


Do you know what a EMP device set off over Kansas will bring?

http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-pr...tates_06202011

Go ahead...walk to the next state..and the next one..and the next one.

Million of people will be dead inside of 6 months, and then winter
will hit, and millions more will simply..freeze to death.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Sun, 7 May 2017 06:52:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 06 May 2017 15:55:12 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


How did you get water?

What...you dont keep any of the blue food grade plastic 55 gallon
drums filled with water? Blink blink

They are used to ship everything from jam and jelly to syrups and
wine. You can often find them for $10-20 each. Flush them out
with
Dawn detergent and a pressure washer, flush until they are clean and
then refill with your garden hose ...

Use a hose rated for drinking, else you may contaminate the water.
http://saferchemicals.org/newsroom/n...-garden-hoses/

-jsw


True indeed. Though Im not sure how much concern there is these
days...what with the restrictions on lead we have seen over the last
10 yrs


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Sun, 07 May 2017 10:22:13 -0700, bruce2bowser wrote:
On Fri, 5 May 2017 04:56:35 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby wrote:
....
If the goal is storing frozen foods while avoiding freezer burn,
pulling the air out of aluminized mylar or thick polyethylene
sacks, then heat-sealing, is ok; if that's properly done, foods
keep ok months to years.

Yeah, but what's actually 'good'? Don't only the pro's do stuff
like that for the service or for astronauts or for museums? It
seems like food that old would eventually taste like a building
material or like styrofoam or polystyrene. I mean, its not like
you'll be eating at the Waffle House. It seems like it would be
just easier to run across to another state where there is food
or something.

A friend of mine spent $450 or so on a vacuum sealer unit, after
going through several cheaper units. He brings fish back from
annual trips to Alaska and packages it to have through the rest
of the year. Also vacuum-packs his jerky and sausage made from
local elk and moose. His concern is having stuff stay good for
the rest of the year, as opposed to decades.

My wife and I package lots of dried foods to take on camping
trips, as well as frozen entrees to have when car-camping.
Most of what we package is ok for a few years of room-temp
storage, which meets our needs.

For prepper-style long-term food storage without flavor loss,
get the commercial freeze-dried canned foods I mentioned in a
previous post, or spend the time and money to DIY. I think
the approach of "run across to another state where there is
food or something" is contrary to the usual prepper mindset.

--
jiw

On Sun, 07 May 2017 22:06:24 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Having a Bug Out bag or two for each person is nice...as I
said...forest fires, invading zombies, hungry aliens eating your
neighbors...then it might be prudent to grab your **** and
git..but...99% of the time..staying home makes far far more sense.

1. Water
2. Food
3. Shelter
4. Self defense
5. First Aid/meds
6 through 17689..less important stuff


I should mention that in the northern states...that order would likely
need to change with shelter being #1 in Fall/Winter/Spring, then food
and water. In some cities...its a tie betweek shelter and self
defense. Can you imagine what would happen in Detroit, Compton,
Watts, KC etc etc if this sort of emergency happened? The Seminoles
would be coming off the reservation to take your stuff before you
could get squared away.....


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Sun, 07 May 2017 22:06:24 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 07 May 2017 19:17:15 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2017 18:33:48 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2017 15:55:12 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2017 13:54:32 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


My wife and I rode out the Coalinga Earthquake back in 1983. We had 6
months supply of food, well stored and properly contained. It lasted
almost 3 weeks, as we were the only people on our block who had more
than 3-4 days worth of groceries in their kitchen. Just a heads up.

The first thing you do is NEVER TELL ANYONE YOU HAVE FOOD STORAGE.
I thought you knew that.

I volunteered the food. Small town, a largely elderly population,
lots of widows and widowers along with a significant number of young
farm laborers with small children.

In the event of a real long-term emergency, you would have quickly
killed (or not) yourselves and extended their lives to die a few weeks
later.

Define "real long term emergency". It was an earthquake, not an emp
strike over the entire USA. One could drive 15 miles away and buy
food and fuel. That wouldnt be happening in many "real emergencies"

When the San Andreas goes off as expected, everything will have to be
airlifted to the CA coast. If a dozen bad guys (perhaps refugees we
have let into our country or tangoes who walked across our
non-existent borders) shot out strategic transformers along a major
grid feed, and/or dropped bio weapon material in our water treatment
plants/reservoirs, etc. Or an EMP, which is the simplest for enemies
(or the Sun's largest flare sets) to take us out. We're so clustered
in cities now that any one of those has the possibility of killing
tens or hundreds of millions. Our gov't has imported refugees, which
if organized, could wreak total havoc on us over wide areas,
preventing distribution of help to vast target areas. MOFOs or Mother
Nature. Take your pick.


How did you get water?

What...you dont keep any of the blue food grade plastic 55 gallon
drums filled with water? Blink blink

Nope. I have a well, and I bought a manual pump for it to replace the
electric, JIC.

Good for you. How deep is your potable ground water? Here in Taft,
its at 550 feet.

My well is 50' and water level is 18'. The only problem with it is
iron bacteria, which is only a stain problem and is easily filtered
out. But it's easily pumped, unlike your deep wells.


Yeah, septic, which I just paid $400 to pump.

Be sure..be sure to use any of the good septic additives regularly. A
proper maintainence program is a very good thing. Be sure to use
biodegradable soaps in your washing machines as well.

I do. I went 15 years between pumpings, and it looked great when the
guys were done. They said they'd come back in a decade.


Took em long enough as it was. It took the Feds almost 3 weeks to get
services up and running, for some value of "running"

They brought in almost 1200 travel trailers for people to temporarily
live in and then brought in mobile homes and sold/rented them for
peanuts, until they could get a home built.

Formaldehyde filled trailers, a la Katrina? What a fiasco that was. A
neighbor was one of the truck drivers and they hauled a load of FEMA
water for Katrina survivors to...NJ! She questioned it at the time
but the dispatcher said "Follow the order to the T or we don't get
paid." When she reached the NE, they cut new delivery orders to LA.
A week's delay for water probably killed some people, and that's with
the rest of the country upright and working.


You may be interested in reading this :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUK Ewia94PLwN_TAhUor1QKHTTmDAkQFggnMAA&url=http%3A%2F %2Fhermes.cde.state.co.us%2Fdrupal%2Fislandora%2Fo bject%2Fco%253A21979%2Fdatastream%2FOBJ%2Fview&usg =AFQjCNHJ2QtUUGTzS5Qd_iyQrNzAmXfIfQ&sig2=xGVMJZu81 ZLLrvIx3o_MzQ&cad=rja

Oh, yeah. I'll read that this morning.


You could get by, by filling 2 and 3 liter soda bottles with water and
adding 2-3 drops of Clorox to each bottle before TIGHTLY screwing on
the lid. We keep 20, as our short term supply, and they are easily
portable, so IF we have to leave, or need to give water to someone..we
can simply hand out a bottle or two.

12 drops/gal, not 2. But I have a Sawyer Point One filter. It keeps
out most virii/bacteria and all but heavy metals. Point one micron
filtration, quickly flushable with reverse flow. HIGHLY recommended.
I got the big one (infinite gallons) and bought the smaller ones
(guaranteed 100k gallons) for my family in the Bay Area.



We have lotsa tules up here, but you're right, the quantity of people
thinking that way would scare away all the wildlife, anyway, so...

Indeed. And one should remember that the Great Depression of the
1930s virtually wiped out the deer herds all across the US. Plus a lot
of other edible small game. Took 25-40 yrs to recover in many places.


The other way is to "bunker in place", which to most of us Old
Dudes...snicker..makes a great deal of sense. If the injuns go on the
warpath or there is a big assed forest fire coming..thats one
thing..but for nearly anything else..shelter in place, know your
neighbors, protect each others backs and if not thrive..survive with
some comfort in your own bed. Bugging In makes sense most of the
time.

Ditto here.

I bought David Morris' Suvive in Place program to help me along those
lines. Good info, inexpensive prog.


You being nearly on top of the San Andreas Fault line puts you in
pretty deep ****.

True indeed. However..Ive mitigated as many risks as possible, and
have made plans and preperations to handle as many of the issues as
possible. There are other faults in the West, along with inside of
California, that can cause far..far bigger havok than just the San
Andreas. A number of them directly under the LA Basin.

Your plumbing would be gone, trailer shifted off the blocks. Mine
might be, too, after a large earthquake.


Doesnt cost much to put a little bit aside, if you do it wisely and be
at least moderately informed. And if Bad **** Happens...you may live.
I equate it with wearing seat belts and keeping fire extinguishers
around. Cant hurt and IF you need it...you will REALLY need em.

Truth!
Yeah, I've been doing that for years now, too.

Smart fellah.

Like a Boy Scout, I yam. Semper Paratus.

--
Obstacles are those frightful things you
see when you take your eyes off your goal.
--Henry Ford

On Sun, 07 May 2017 21:46:06 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 07 May 2017 19:41:56 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 07 May 2017 11:40:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Do you know what a EMP device set off over Kansas will bring?

http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-pr...tates_06202011

Go ahead...walk to the next state..and the next one..and the next one.

g You don't think Mexico would invade when that happened?
So long, SoCal!

Actually...No, they wouldnt. Their power would be gone as well, at
least in their northern states.

"We walked 1000 miles already and to stay here would be death, so why
not continue over an unenforced border and take the goods off the
wealthy Americans? Let's go." they'd say.


Million of people will be dead inside of 6 months, and then winter
will hit, and millions more will simply..freeze to death.

You misspelled "hundred million" there, mon. Between people dying
from running out of their meds, starving with no food, dying when
others take the little food they have, running out of water,
dysentery, etc, that figure would happen within a month of an EMP
burst which killed the entire grid. It's amazing how quickly
supposedly civilized people revert to primitives, given the reactions
during Katrina and other bad storms. Most of the real bad news wasn't
broadcast.

True enough. It largely depends on if it happens in summer or winter.
Winter...hundred million will indeed die. They will race to see if
they starve to death or freeze to death first.

I'm not sure how much seasonal changes would affect that. Dry summers
and cold winters might be equally bad for survival of the unfittest.

--
Obstacles are those frightful things you
see when you take your eyes off your goal.
--Henry Ford

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 1:06:28 AM UTC-4, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 06 May 2017 13:54:32 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

My wife and I rode out the Coalinga Earthquake back in 1983. We had 6
months supply of food, well stored and properly contained. It lasted
almost 3 weeks, as we were the only people on our block who had more
than 3-4 days worth of groceries in their kitchen. Just a heads up.


Define "real long term emergency". It was an earthquake, not an emp
strike over the entire USA. One could drive 15 miles away and buy
food and fuel. That wouldnt be happening in many "real emergencies"

One or both of these paragraphs is bull****, or your entire neighborhood is comprised of nut jobs like yourself.

On Sun, 7 May 2017 01:44:52 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
wrote:

That's a little surprising, but if correct then a vane type AC
compressor ought to work fairly well as a single stage vacuum
pump. The only thing to watch out for is the vapor pressure of
the lubricant, but it's unlikely to be a problem.

I've never seen a rotary vane AC compressor. I've seen several piston
types and a few stationary vane compressors. Essentially all modern
compressors are scroll unit. Low starting current, high efficiency
and essentially no vibration.

An HVAC compressor will NOT work as a vacuum pump. Voice of
experience. These compressors depend on a high volume of vapor for
cooling. Once the initial pump-down is complete, there is essentially
no air flow and thus no cooling.

Refrigeration compressors do a fair job. The major problem is oil
carry-over on the discharge. An oil trap (off the shelf part) is a
must.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

Gunner Asch on Sun, 07 May 2017 22:06:24 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Just figure out what you need IN YOUR AREA..which is going to be
significantly different than my needs in MY area..and do whatever
needs to be done.
Bad things happen to good people, at the worst possible
times...occasionally. Some are far worse than others.
Pompei, 1776 Colonial America, France in 1789, Japan 2011, Cascade
Subduction Zone...soon..maybe ..Madrid Fault.....just a tiny sample of
bad things that no one expected. Shrug

You being nearly on top of the San Andreas Fault line puts you in
pretty deep ****.

True indeed. However..Ive mitigated as many risks as possible, and
have made plans and preperations to handle as many of the issues as
possible. There are other faults in the West, along with inside of
California, that can cause far..far bigger havok than just the San
Andreas. A number of them directly under the LA Basin.

And the "good news" is that California has known about earthquakes
for decades.

Here in the PacNorWest, they keep evidence of serious earthquakes
in the past as well as finding faults they didn't know about. Like
the one which runs down puget sound and then turns east under the old
King Dome. That whole section of Seattle is built on fill, not to
earthquake standards. When it cuts loose Elliot "bay" will be a bay
again.
And that is before we get to the subduction zone off the coast.
When that cuts loose (any time between noon and fifty years from now)
and a couple hundred miles of fault line gives way - you'll know. Have
no doubt - you'll know.

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

On Mon, 08 May 2017 04:59:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 07 May 2017 22:06:24 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 07 May 2017 19:17:15 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2017 18:33:48 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2017 15:55:12 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2017 13:54:32 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


My wife and I rode out the Coalinga Earthquake back in 1983. We had 6
months supply of food, well stored and properly contained. It lasted
almost 3 weeks, as we were the only people on our block who had more
than 3-4 days worth of groceries in their kitchen. Just a heads up.

The first thing you do is NEVER TELL ANYONE YOU HAVE FOOD STORAGE.
I thought you knew that.

I volunteered the food. Small town, a largely elderly population,
lots of widows and widowers along with a significant number of young
farm laborers with small children.

In the event of a real long-term emergency, you would have quickly
killed (or not) yourselves and extended their lives to die a few weeks
later.

Define "real long term emergency". It was an earthquake, not an emp
strike over the entire USA. One could drive 15 miles away and buy
food and fuel. That wouldnt be happening in many "real emergencies"

When the San Andreas goes off as expected, everything will have to be
airlifted to the CA coast. If a dozen bad guys (perhaps refugees we
have let into our country or tangoes who walked across our
non-existent borders) shot out strategic transformers along a major
grid feed, and/or dropped bio weapon material in our water treatment
plants/reservoirs, etc. Or an EMP, which is the simplest for enemies
(or the Sun's largest flare sets) to take us out. We're so clustered
in cities now that any one of those has the possibility of killing
tens or hundreds of millions. Our gov't has imported refugees, which
if organized, could wreak total havoc on us over wide areas,
preventing distribution of help to vast target areas. MOFOs or Mother
Nature. Take your pick.


How did you get water?

What...you dont keep any of the blue food grade plastic 55 gallon
drums filled with water? Blink blink

Nope. I have a well, and I bought a manual pump for it to replace the
electric, JIC.

Good for you. How deep is your potable ground water? Here in Taft,
its at 550 feet.

My well is 50' and water level is 18'. The only problem with it is
iron bacteria, which is only a stain problem and is easily filtered
out. But it's easily pumped, unlike your deep wells.


Yeah, septic, which I just paid $400 to pump.

Be sure..be sure to use any of the good septic additives regularly. A
proper maintainence program is a very good thing. Be sure to use
biodegradable soaps in your washing machines as well.

I do. I went 15 years between pumpings, and it looked great when the
guys were done. They said they'd come back in a decade.


Took em long enough as it was. It took the Feds almost 3 weeks to get
services up and running, for some value of "running"

They brought in almost 1200 travel trailers for people to temporarily
live in and then brought in mobile homes and sold/rented them for
peanuts, until they could get a home built.

Formaldehyde filled trailers, a la Katrina? What a fiasco that was. A
neighbor was one of the truck drivers and they hauled a load of FEMA
water for Katrina survivors to...NJ! She questioned it at the time
but the dispatcher said "Follow the order to the T or we don't get
paid." When she reached the NE, they cut new delivery orders to LA.
A week's delay for water probably killed some people, and that's with
the rest of the country upright and working.


You may be interested in reading this :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUK Ewia94PLwN_TAhUor1QKHTTmDAkQFggnMAA&url=http%3A%2F %2Fhermes.cde.state.co.us%2Fdrupal%2Fislandora%2Fo bject%2Fco%253A21979%2Fdatastream%2FOBJ%2Fview&usg =AFQjCNHJ2QtUUGTzS5Qd_iyQrNzAmXfIfQ&sig2=xGVMJZu81 ZLLrvIx3o_MzQ&cad=rja

Oh, yeah. I'll read that this morning.


You could get by, by filling 2 and 3 liter soda bottles with water and
adding 2-3 drops of Clorox to each bottle before TIGHTLY screwing on
the lid. We keep 20, as our short term supply, and they are easily
portable, so IF we have to leave, or need to give water to someone..we
can simply hand out a bottle or two.

12 drops/gal, not 2. But I have a Sawyer Point One filter. It keeps
out most virii/bacteria and all but heavy metals. Point one micron
filtration, quickly flushable with reverse flow. HIGHLY recommended.
I got the big one (infinite gallons) and bought the smaller ones
(guaranteed 100k gallons) for my family in the Bay Area.



We have lotsa tules up here, but you're right, the quantity of people
thinking that way would scare away all the wildlife, anyway, so...

Indeed. And one should remember that the Great Depression of the
1930s virtually wiped out the deer herds all across the US. Plus a lot
of other edible small game. Took 25-40 yrs to recover in many places.


The other way is to "bunker in place", which to most of us Old
Dudes...snicker..makes a great deal of sense. If the injuns go on the
warpath or there is a big assed forest fire coming..thats one
thing..but for nearly anything else..shelter in place, know your
neighbors, protect each others backs and if not thrive..survive with
some comfort in your own bed. Bugging In makes sense most of the
time.

Ditto here.

I bought David Morris' Suvive in Place program to help me along those
lines. Good info, inexpensive prog.


You being nearly on top of the San Andreas Fault line puts you in
pretty deep ****.

True indeed. However..Ive mitigated as many risks as possible, and
have made plans and preperations to handle as many of the issues as
possible. There are other faults in the West, along with inside of
California, that can cause far..far bigger havok than just the San
Andreas. A number of them directly under the LA Basin.

Your plumbing would be gone, trailer shifted off the blocks. Mine
might be, too, after a large earthquake.

My "trailer" is strapped to 18 deadmen under the frame. It may
move..but its unlikely to fall.

http://www.mobilehomestuffstore.com/...chors/2,8.html

I only wish Id done it before installing the "trailer halves". It was
a pain in the ass doing it 10 yrs later.


Doesnt cost much to put a little bit aside, if you do it wisely and be
at least moderately informed. And if Bad **** Happens...you may live.
I equate it with wearing seat belts and keeping fire extinguishers
around. Cant hurt and IF you need it...you will REALLY need em.

Truth!
Yeah, I've been doing that for years now, too.

Smart fellah.

Like a Boy Scout, I yam. Semper Paratus.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:36:50 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 08 May 2017 04:59:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

When the San Andreas goes off as expected, everything will have to be
airlifted to the CA coast.

I've always loved the Murphy Angle on the SAF: When the Big One hits
CA, everything east of the San Andreas Fault will fall into the
Atlantic.


Your plumbing would be gone, trailer shifted off the blocks. Mine
might be, too, after a large earthquake.

My "trailer" is strapped to 18 deadmen under the frame. It may
move..but its unlikely to fall.

Do you believe the plumbing (supply and septic) would survive it?


http://www.mobilehomestuffstore.com/...chors/2,8.html

I only wish Id done it before installing the "trailer halves". It was
a pain in the ass doing it 10 yrs later.

I'll bet. Given a large quake (6+) I doubt those would hold. Maybe a
3.5.


--
Obstacles are those frightful things you
see when you take your eyes off your goal.
--Henry Ford

On Mon, 08 May 2017 21:36:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:36:50 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 08 May 2017 04:59:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

When the San Andreas goes off as expected, everything will have to be
airlifted to the CA coast.

I've always loved the Murphy Angle on the SAF: When the Big One hits
CA, everything east of the San Andreas Fault will fall into the
Atlantic.

LOL!!


Your plumbing would be gone, trailer shifted off the blocks. Mine
might be, too, after a large earthquake.

My "trailer" is strapped to 18 deadmen under the frame. It may
move..but its unlikely to fall.

Do you believe the plumbing (supply and septic) would survive it?

Might bust the drain line to the septic tank, but I keep several
lengths of proper pipe and connectors in stock. Along with
glue...which reminds me...gotta go check and see if I need to replace
the can. Its been 10 yrs since I put it in the "emergency household
gear" crate.



http://www.mobilehomestuffstore.com/...chors/2,8.html

I only wish Id done it before installing the "trailer halves". It was
a pain in the ass doing it 10 yrs later.

I'll bet. Given a large quake (6+) I doubt those would hold. Maybe a
3.5.


Im not all that far off the ground and if it falls..it will be
moderately "easy" to jack it back up. One of the reasons I keep
Simplex jacks on hand and spare jackstands and hydraulic jacks.

3/4 of the manufactured home is on pier blocks that are no longer than
22" tall, the last 1/4 are about 30" elevation. So getting under it
may be something of an issue if it falls. which is why I screwed in
(18) 48" screw type deadmen, at 45' angles and used steel cable and
turnbuckles to connect them to the frame rails, both outside beams an
the center beam(s) down the middle.

I was worried about making it TOO rigid, but the local building
engineer said Id done well, (according to the codes at the time, about
1994ish or so)

The ground here is so dry..that Ive no worries about any of them
having rusted in half, and they were heavily coated when I bought
them.

Only time and The Big One will show if we were right or not.
Shrug..Ive got plenty of camping equipment and a motorhome if I lose
the house. It might be a favor if I did...I could get a government
grant and buy another manufactured home and lot for very very little
money. Im 63...I figure Ive got at least another 30 yrs left...so IF
California takes the MegaHit...I can leave this ****ing state once and
for all, as all my business clients will be demolished rubble in So.
Cal...and few of them will have good reason to rebuild in their
original locations...most will leave the state.




---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 5/9/2017 12:05 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 08 May 2017 21:36:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:36:50 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 08 May 2017 04:59:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

When the San Andreas goes off as expected, everything will have to be
airlifted to the CA coast.

I've always loved the Murphy Angle on the SAF: When the Big One hits
CA, everything east of the San Andreas Fault will fall into the
Atlantic.

LOL!!


Your plumbing would be gone, trailer shifted off the blocks. Mine
might be, too, after a large earthquake.

My "trailer" is strapped to 18 deadmen under the frame. It may
move..but its unlikely to fall.

Do you believe the plumbing (supply and septic) would survive it?

Might bust the drain line to the septic tank, but I keep several
lengths of proper pipe and connectors in stock. Along with
glue...which reminds me...gotta go check and see if I need to replace
the can. Its been 10 yrs since I put it in the "emergency household
gear" crate.



http://www.mobilehomestuffstore.com/...chors/2,8.html

I only wish Id done it before installing the "trailer halves". It was
a pain in the ass doing it 10 yrs later.

I'll bet. Given a large quake (6+) I doubt those would hold. Maybe a
3.5.


Im not all that far off the ground and if it falls..it will be
moderately "easy" to jack it back up. One of the reasons I keep
Simplex jacks on hand and spare jackstands and hydraulic jacks.

3/4 of the manufactured home is on pier blocks that are no longer than
22" tall, the last 1/4 are about 30" elevation. So getting under it
may be something of an issue if it falls. which is why I screwed in
(18) 48" screw type deadmen, at 45' angles and used steel cable and
turnbuckles to connect them to the frame rails, both outside beams an
the center beam(s) down the middle.

I was worried about making it TOO rigid, but the local building
engineer said Id done well, (according to the codes at the time, about
1994ish or so)

The ground here is so dry..that Ive no worries about any of them
having rusted in half, and they were heavily coated when I bought
them.

Only time and The Big One will show if we were right or not.
Shrug..Ive got plenty of camping equipment and a motorhome if I lose
the house. It might be a favor if I did...I could get a government
grant and buy another manufactured home and lot for very very little
money. Im 63...I figure Ive got at least another 30 yrs left...

Haw haw haw! So a dumpster-diving scrounger who had multiple coronary
bypass surgery at about age 55, who still smokes like a 1962 Plymouth
Valiant with a blown head gasket and bad rings, who guzzles soda pop by
the 55-gallon drum and can't maintain working toilets is going to live
to age 93, is he? VBG