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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Intresting Engine
New engine to hit the market in 2017.
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...sion-official/ Best Regards Tom. |
#2
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Intresting Engine
Howard Beel wrote:
New engine to hit the market in 2017. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable- compression-official/ Best Regards Tom. Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this for some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model. By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too. A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent? Jon |
#3
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Intresting Engine
"Jon Elson" wrote in message
... Howard Beel wrote: New engine to hit the market in 2017. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable- compression-official/ Best Regards Tom. Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this for some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model. By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too. A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent? Jon Or a Peugeot patent? http://www.motortrend.com/news/mce5-...t-geneva-3891/ --jsw |
#4
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Intresting Engine
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: Howard Beel wrote: New engine to hit the market in 2017. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable- compression-official/ Best Regards Tom. Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this for some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model. By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too. A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent? Jon I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary. Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson cycle, used on today's hybrids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle What this new Nissan engine does is to actually change the compression ratio of the engine. The nominal compression ratio of an ordinary engine (say, 10:1) is only achieved at full-throttle operation. At any other condition, the actual compression ratio is less, because less air-gas is let in. This is the chief reason that gasoline engines can't achieve the efficiency of diesels, which are always running at their nominal compression ratio. If you can vary the compression ratio, you can approach the nominal ratio even at part-throttle operation. To achieve it, you actually have to increase the ratio *above* the nominal amount (say, to 14:1). When you do that, the part-throttle operation, which lets in less air-gas, causes the *actual* compression ratio, or effective compression ratio, to be returned to the optimum 10:1. (These values are just examples.) You wind up with diesel-like efficiency. Then, the Atkinson cycle extracts more, by effectively extending the expansion stroke. The Atikinson-cycle part of the operation is incidental to the variable compression ratio. It's the variable compression ratio that's the big deal. A true Atkinson cycle is quite efficient, but the pseudo Atkinson cycle of today's hybrids is less so. -- Ed Huntress |
#5
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Intresting Engine
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
... On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: Howard Beel wrote: New engine to hit the market in 2017. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable- compression-official/ Best Regards Tom. Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this for some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model. By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too. A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent? Jon I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary. Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson cycle, used on today's hybrids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle What this new Nissan engine does is to actually change the compression ratio of the engine. The nominal compression ratio of an ordinary engine (say, 10:1) is only achieved at full-throttle operation. At any other condition, the actual compression ratio is less, because less air-gas is let in. This is the chief reason that gasoline engines can't achieve the efficiency of diesels, which are always running at their nominal compression ratio. If you can vary the compression ratio, you can approach the nominal ratio even at part-throttle operation. To achieve it, you actually have to increase the ratio *above* the nominal amount (say, to 14:1). When you do that, the part-throttle operation, which lets in less air-gas, causes the *actual* compression ratio, or effective compression ratio, to be returned to the optimum 10:1. (These values are just examples.) You wind up with diesel-like efficiency. Then, the Atkinson cycle extracts more, by effectively extending the expansion stroke. The Atikinson-cycle part of the operation is incidental to the variable compression ratio. It's the variable compression ratio that's the big deal. A true Atkinson cycle is quite efficient, but the pseudo Atkinson cycle of today's hybrids is less so. Ed Huntress ================================================== ================= Saab demonstrated a running variable compression supercharged 5 cylinder in 2000, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_V...ression_engine for example. Naturally GM killed it sometime after they acquired Saab, citing cost. This was an inline engine with the block split horizontally between crankshaft and cylinders, with a hinge down one side and a mechanism to lift the other side to control the compression. ----- Regards, Carl Ijames |
#6
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Intresting Engine
Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary. Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson cycle, used on today's hybrids: Right. What this new Nissan engine does is to actually change the compression ratio of the engine. The nominal compression ratio of an ordinary engine (say, 10:1) is only achieved at full-throttle operation. At any other condition, the actual compression ratio is less, because less air-gas is let in. This is the chief reason that gasoline engines can't achieve the efficiency of diesels, which are always running at their nominal compression ratio. Well, getting rid of pumping loss is a really good thing, so maybe this accomplishes the variable output without a throttle, at least under the driving range of operation (might still be needed for idle). If you can vary the compression ratio, you can approach the nominal ratio even at part-throttle operation. To achieve it, you actually have to increase the ratio *above* the nominal amount (say, to 14:1). When you do that, the part-throttle operation, which lets in less air-gas, causes the *actual* compression ratio, or effective compression ratio, to be returned to the optimum 10:1. (These values are just examples.) You wind up with diesel-like efficiency. Then, the Atkinson cycle extracts more, by effectively extending the expansion stroke. The Atikinson-cycle part of the operation is incidental to the variable compression ratio. It's the variable compression ratio that's the big deal. A true Atkinson cycle is quite efficient, but the pseudo Atkinson cycle of today's hybrids is less so. OK, that probably requires a degree in thermodynamics to understand. Jon |
#7
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Intresting Engine
Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: Howard Beel wrote: New engine to hit the market in 2017. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable- compression-official/ Best Regards Tom. Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this for some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model. By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too. A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent? Jon I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary. Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson cycle, used on today's hybrids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle I like the old-timey bizarre mechanical linkages used to acheive the weird motions folks used to really get excited over. |
#8
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Intresting Engine
Cydrome Leader fired this volley in
: I like the old-timey bizarre mechanical linkages used to acheive the weird motions folks used to really get excited over. They're hardly "bizarr". I use such linkages on my machines to make explosive materials. Those 'bizarre' linkages are really a basic part of mechanics. Look at some of the OLD (say, pre-1960s), purely-mechanical manuals on how to achieve various motions -- it's all in there! Lloyd |
#9
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Intresting Engine
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 15:05:36 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary. Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson cycle, used on today's hybrids: Right. What this new Nissan engine does is to actually change the compression ratio of the engine. The nominal compression ratio of an ordinary engine (say, 10:1) is only achieved at full-throttle operation. At any other condition, the actual compression ratio is less, because less air-gas is let in. This is the chief reason that gasoline engines can't achieve the efficiency of diesels, which are always running at their nominal compression ratio. Well, getting rid of pumping loss is a really good thing, so maybe this accomplishes the variable output without a throttle, at least under the driving range of operation (might still be needed for idle). If you can vary the compression ratio, you can approach the nominal ratio even at part-throttle operation. To achieve it, you actually have to increase the ratio *above* the nominal amount (say, to 14:1). When you do that, the part-throttle operation, which lets in less air-gas, causes the *actual* compression ratio, or effective compression ratio, to be returned to the optimum 10:1. (These values are just examples.) You wind up with diesel-like efficiency. Then, the Atkinson cycle extracts more, by effectively extending the expansion stroke. The Atikinson-cycle part of the operation is incidental to the variable compression ratio. It's the variable compression ratio that's the big deal. A true Atkinson cycle is quite efficient, but the pseudo Atkinson cycle of today's hybrids is less so. OK, that probably requires a degree in thermodynamics to understand. Jon Let me try the simple version and see if I can be clear: It is a thermodynamics issue. The higher the compression ratio, the greater is the Carnot efficiency of an engine. You don't need a thermodynamics background to get the idea of the Carnot cycle and efficiency. Wikipedia probably does it. This is the main reason why diesels are so efficient: they always run at full, nominal compression. There is no throttle on the air. It's only the fuel that's varied as you advance from idle to full throttle. On a spark-ignition engine, you keep the fuel/air mix as close to uniform as you can, and you vary the amount of the mix that gets into the cylinder, with the throttle. If you vary the fuel/air ratio by much (the ideal is 14.7 pounds of air for a pound of gasoline), the mixture won't ignite with a spark. So at full throttle, the engine will be running at a high compression ratio, the nominal ratio -- maybe 10:1 for example. At part throttle, the lesser amount of fuel/air mix produces a much lower effective compression ratio -- maybe 5:1 at some throttle settings. The Carnot efficiency goes to hell. So you can see why having a variable compession ratio is such a big deal. Manufacturers have been trying to produce a variable compression ratio system that works well and that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, for close to a century. The Atkinson cycle is something completely different, but it's another thermodynamics issue. I'll give it a try: The true, original Atkinson cycle involved a short intake and compression stroke, and a long expansion stroke and exhaust stroke. A true Atkinson did it by means of a complex crank mechanism. The "pseudo Atkinsons," like the engines in today's hybrids, have the same-length stroke for all four parts of the cycle. But they open the intake valve late so the cylinder is less-filled. The expansion stroke, therefore, is *relatively* long for the amount of fuel being burned. You get more efficiency because the charge expands to a greater degree than normal. The nominal compression ratio is very high, but the *actual* compression is normal, because of the lesser cylinder-filling. This Nissan engine combines both, but it's the compression ratio that's the big deal. Tell me if this is as clear as mud. g -- Ed Huntress |
#10
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Intresting Engine
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 20:29:42 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: Howard Beel wrote: New engine to hit the market in 2017. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/14/i...gine-variable- compression-official/ Best Regards Tom. Hmm, my 2009 Honda Civic hybrid has variable intake valve timing, which seems to pretty much accomplish the same thing. They've been doing this for some time, probably dates back to at least 2006 on that model. By reducing the charge drawn into the cylinders, it reduces the peak pressure, so that seems to be varying the compression, too. A pretty low-tech way to accomplish it, it doesn't make any chages to the lower end. This Infiniti scheme seems to add a LOT more complexity to the lower end. I wonder if this is some way to get around a Honda patent? Jon I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary. Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson cycle, used on today's hybrids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle I like the old-timey bizarre mechanical linkages used to acheive the weird motions folks used to really get excited over. Some of those are still around. This engine's crank is pretty wild. And some high-performance Stirlings use a rhombic-drive crank. -- Ed Huntress |
#11
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Intresting Engine
"Jon Elson" wrote in message
... Ed Huntress wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:53:20 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: I think you're misreading it, Jon. This engine is truly revolutionary. Varying valve timing as you describe just produces a pseudo-Atkinson cycle, used on today's hybrids: Right. What this new Nissan engine does is to actually change the compression ratio of the engine. The nominal compression ratio of an ordinary engine (say, 10:1) is only achieved at full-throttle operation. At any other condition, the actual compression ratio is less, because less air-gas is let in. This is the chief reason that gasoline engines can't achieve the efficiency of diesels, which are always running at their nominal compression ratio. Well, getting rid of pumping loss is a really good thing, so maybe this accomplishes the variable output without a throttle, at least under the driving range of operation (might still be needed for idle). If you can vary the compression ratio, you can approach the nominal ratio even at part-throttle operation. To achieve it, you actually have to increase the ratio *above* the nominal amount (say, to 14:1). When you do that, the part-throttle operation, which lets in less air-gas, causes the *actual* compression ratio, or effective compression ratio, to be returned to the optimum 10:1. (These values are just examples.) You wind up with diesel-like efficiency. Then, the Atkinson cycle extracts more, by effectively extending the expansion stroke. The Atikinson-cycle part of the operation is incidental to the variable compression ratio. It's the variable compression ratio that's the big deal. A true Atkinson cycle is quite efficient, but the pseudo Atkinson cycle of today's hybrids is less so. OK, that probably requires a degree in thermodynamics to understand. Jon Engine efficiency increases with higher combustion ratio, limited by preignition and Knock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking Knock varies with combustion conditions and can be sensed with a microphone sharply tuned to the block's resonant frequency (thus filtering out other sounds) and controlled by backing off the spark advance until it nearly disappears. The old vacuum advance did this open-loop, advancing the spark further at light throttle when intake vacuum is high and releasing it back to the RPM-controlled centrifugal advance position when you floor the pedal. However this is the easy but not the best way. SAAB's conceptually simple system moves the cylinder block up or down relative to the crankshaft and piston to vary the combustion chamber's size to maintain maximum allowable pressure and the best efficiency at any power demand. http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...h_engine_4.htm Look at the positions of the orange eccentric shaft to the right of the connecting rod, and the red combustion chamber. --jsw |
#12
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Intresting Engine
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Cydrome Leader fired this volley in : I like the old-timey bizarre mechanical linkages used to acheive the weird motions folks used to really get excited over. They're hardly "bizarr". I use such linkages on my machines to make explosive materials. Those 'bizarre' linkages are really a basic part of mechanics. Look at some of the OLD (say, pre-1960s), purely-mechanical manuals on how to achieve various motions -- it's all in there! Lloyd It also turns out lots of those motions just aren't necessary. On another group there was chat about VHS tape recorders. Granted most machines now have some level of computer in them and mechanical timing stuff isn't needed anymore. The bottom line is cheap, not let's make elegant mechanisms anymore. Back to VCRs, the original ones had like a half dozen motors. Recent ones, say made in the past 15-20 years were down to like 2 motors. They designed all the complex mechanical nonsense out of the product. As it turns out, none of that complexity was really needed in the first place. |
#13
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Intresting Engine
Cydrome Leader fired this volley in news:np04c9
: They designed all the complex mechanical nonsense out of the product. As it turns out, none of that complexity was really needed in the first place. But, "complexity" is not a part of an elegant mechanical design! Folks design stuff based on their "art" at the time. Elegance in mechanics peaked about 1930... It has gone down-hill ever since.urk! Lloyd |
#14
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Intresting Engine
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 15:50:42 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Cydrome Leader fired this volley in : I like the old-timey bizarre mechanical linkages used to acheive the weird motions folks used to really get excited over. They're hardly "bizarr". I use such linkages on my machines to make explosive materials. Those 'bizarre' linkages are really a basic part of mechanics. Look at some of the OLD (say, pre-1960s), purely-mechanical manuals on how to achieve various motions -- it's all in there! Here's a lovely tome into which one can get themself nicely lost: http://tinyurl.com/hh2sdge 1800 Mechanical Movements... -- I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. --James Madison |
#15
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Intresting Engine
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
: Here's a lovely tome into which one can get themself nicely lost: http://tinyurl.com/hh2sdge 1800 Mechanical Movements... I have the four-volume set of "Ingenious mechanisms for designers and inventors". It's just FULL of good stuff, some (small amount) of which I've employed on my machines for the miltary. Lloyd |
#16
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Intresting Engine
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:15:53 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Larry Jaques fired this volley in : Here's a lovely tome into which one can get themself nicely lost: http://tinyurl.com/hh2sdge 1800 Mechanical Movements... I have the four-volume set of "Ingenious mechanisms for designers and inventors". It's just FULL of good stuff, some (small amount) of which I've employed on my machines for the miltary. I just saw one copy of the set on Amazon for $750, while individual volumes start at $0.54 used. g They sound like fun. I recently picked up Practical Electronics for Inventors but haven't gotten to it yet. At the end of this month (I'm retiring earlier) I'll have more time to finish my hefty 'unread' bookshelf. Maybe even turn off Kindle Unlimited again for awhile... The use of ancient mechanisms in new military machinery is wildly amusing to me. Physics doesn't change (much), and being able to use old inventor's mechanisms in new ways is a great idea. Kudos. I've also been buying and using vintage machinery all my life because the old stuff is well designed and much cheaper than the new, while being perfectly good for my uses. Granted, a $12k sliding table saw makes a slightly better cut (0.1 RCH)than an old 10" cast iron jobber (followed me home from Gunner's) but it also costs $12k more and would take up over half my shop. (Yeah, I know I got off-thread here with "vintage", but, just sayin'.) -- The great thing about getting older is that you don't lose all the other ages you've been. -- Madeleine L'Engle |
#17
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Intresting Engine
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Cydrome Leader fired this volley in news:np04c9 : They designed all the complex mechanical nonsense out of the product. As it turns out, none of that complexity was really needed in the first place. But, "complexity" is not a part of an elegant mechanical design! Folks design stuff based on their "art" at the time. Elegance in mechanics peaked about 1930... It has gone down-hill ever since.urk! I'm sure lost of this knowledge has been lost. For a long time now I've wondered how much effort it would take to design and built one of those giant mechanical calculators like banks used to have. Those things were absulutely insane in how complex they were and how many parts were crammed inside. Even typewritters are works of art in how the actions feel nice in operation. a $50 VCR is pretty amazing as well, when compared to an old one side by side. If you consider them black boxes, the new throw away ones do still work better. It's amazing how the the advancements in electronics rendered all the other mechanical parts useless. |
#18
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Intresting Engine
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 20:17:29 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote: Granted, a $12k sliding table saw makes a slightly better cut (0.1 RCH)than an old 10" cast iron jobber (followed me home from Gunner's) but it also costs $12k more and would take up over half my shop. Does the saw do what you want it to do? If not..bring it back. (Grin) Gunner --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#19
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Intresting Engine
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:15:53 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Larry Jaques fired this volley in : Here's a lovely tome into which one can get themself nicely lost: http://tinyurl.com/hh2sdge 1800 Mechanical Movements... I have the four-volume set of "Ingenious mechanisms for designers and inventors". It's just FULL of good stuff, some (small amount) of which I've employed on my machines for the miltary. I just saw one copy of the set on Amazon for $750, while individual volumes start at $0.54 used. g They sound like fun. I recently picked up Practical Electronics for Inventors but haven't gotten to it yet. At the end of this month (I'm retiring earlier) I'll have more time to finish my hefty 'unread' bookshelf. Maybe even turn off Kindle Unlimited again for awhile... The use of ancient mechanisms in new military machinery is wildly amusing to me. Physics doesn't change (much), and being able to use old inventor's mechanisms in new ways is a great idea. Kudos. I've also been buying and using vintage machinery all my life because the old stuff is well designed and much cheaper than the new, while being perfectly good for my uses. Granted, a $12k sliding table saw makes a slightly better cut (0.1 RCH)than an old 10" cast iron jobber (followed me home from Gunner's) but it also costs $12k more and would take up over half my shop. (Yeah, I know I got off-thread here with "vintage", but, just sayin'.) -- The great thing about getting older is that you don't lose all the other ages you've been. -- Madeleine L'Engle You visit VintageMachinery.org..... lot of kindred spirits who use "vintage" machines... Oh for a .pdf of the 1800 movements book... http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/H/Hi/..._movements.pdf -- Steve W. |
#20
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Intresting Engine
"Steve W." wrote in message ... You visit VintageMachinery.org..... lot of kindred spirits who use "vintage" machines... Oh for a .pdf of the 1800 movements book... http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/H/Hi/..._movements.pdf -- Steve W. This vintage 1909 engine stood the test of time. Love all cams and levers. Still fires up today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXzSZVgQwts Best Regards Tom. |
#21
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Intresting Engine
"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
... Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Cydrome Leader fired this volley in news:np04c9 : They designed all the complex mechanical nonsense out of the product. As it turns out, none of that complexity was really needed in the first place. But, "complexity" is not a part of an elegant mechanical design! Folks design stuff based on their "art" at the time. Elegance in mechanics peaked about 1930... It has gone down-hill ever since.urk! I'm sure lost of this knowledge has been lost. For a long time now I've wondered how much effort it would take to design and built one of those giant mechanical calculators like banks used to have. Those things were absulutely insane in how complex they were and how many parts were crammed inside. Even typewritters are works of art in how the actions feel nice in operation. a $50 VCR is pretty amazing as well, when compared to an old one side by side. If you consider them black boxes, the new throw away ones do still work better. It's amazing how the the advancements in electronics rendered all the other mechanical parts useless. More specifically the advance in cheap computing power obsoleted both mechanical control mechanisms and bulky discrete electronics such as in older televisions. When I was learning communications electronics in the Army in 1970 a phone line modem was the size of a 2-drawer file cabinet. Each circuit card held two discrete transistor NAND gates. The frequency shift modulator and demodulator were cleverly tuned transformer / filter circuits that the instructor didn't understand. They showed us evaluation samples of integrated circuit electronics but we learned to repair the 1960's gear that was in wide use. In the early 80's I built a similar frequency-shift modem the size of a portable cassette recorder with parts from Radio Shack. The modem and recorder were the mass storage for my home-brew computer. As soon as fast enough analog to digital converters became affordable, around 1990, a microcomputer could replace the remaining analog circuitry. That enabled the digital radios I prototyped at Mitre, and pocket-sized cell phones. The best A/Ds we could get back then were for the new Tektronix and HP digital oscilloscopes. On the other hand, when I was working on the color ink jet printer in the mid 80's I halved the complexity of the electronics by a simple mechanical rearrangement of the print head geometry. The Army had the technology for encrypted voice and data cell phones by 1970. The field-deployable electronics at the "cell tower" filled six interconnected trailer trucks plus a van for the microwave radio link, with a large Diesel generator on a trailer and at least two dozen men and a field kitchen to support it all. We would have been a tempting and easy target for Spetsnaz desantniki (paratroop commandos). --jsw |
#22
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Intresting Engine
"Steve W." wrote in message
... Larry Jaques wrote: On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:15:53 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Larry Jaques fired this volley in : Here's a lovely tome into which one can get themself nicely lost: http://tinyurl.com/hh2sdge 1800 Mechanical Movements... I have the four-volume set of "Ingenious mechanisms for designers and inventors". It's just FULL of good stuff, some (small amount) of which I've employed on my machines for the miltary. I just saw one copy of the set on Amazon for $750, while individual volumes start at $0.54 used. g They sound like fun. I recently picked up Practical Electronics for Inventors but haven't gotten to it yet. At the end of this month (I'm retiring earlier) I'll have more time to finish my hefty 'unread' bookshelf. Maybe even turn off Kindle Unlimited again for awhile... The use of ancient mechanisms in new military machinery is wildly amusing to me. Physics doesn't change (much), and being able to use old inventor's mechanisms in new ways is a great idea. Kudos. I've also been buying and using vintage machinery all my life because the old stuff is well designed and much cheaper than the new, while being perfectly good for my uses. Granted, a $12k sliding table saw makes a slightly better cut (0.1 RCH)than an old 10" cast iron jobber (followed me home from Gunner's) but it also costs $12k more and would take up over half my shop. (Yeah, I know I got off-thread here with "vintage", but, just sayin'.) -- The great thing about getting older is that you don't lose all the other ages you've been. -- Madeleine L'Engle You visit VintageMachinery.org..... lot of kindred spirits who use "vintage" machines... Oh for a .pdf of the 1800 movements book... http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/H/Hi/..._movements.pdf -- Steve W. This is the tricky mechanism to learn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-bar_linkage I used it on my hydraulic loader to allow the bucket to drop to 30 degrees from vertical when fully raised, to dump sticky wet snow. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/a...ttachment.html --jsw |
#23
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Intresting Engine
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np1k70$4lj$1
@dont-email.me: The Army had the technology for encrypted voice and data cell phones by 1970. We were running crypto'd voice in 1968 on Navy River Boats, over in 'Nam; and I think they'd been using them for several years by the time I got there. The unit was about the size of a medium-sized benchtop oscilloscope (like a Tek 525). We changed the 'Cac' code every day, as part of our pre-mission checkouts. Lloyd |
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Intresting Engine
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 4.170... "Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np1k70$4lj$1 @dont-email.me: The Army had the technology for encrypted voice and data cell phones by 1970. We were running crypto'd voice in 1968 on Navy River Boats, over in 'Nam; and I think they'd been using them for several years by the time I got there. The unit was about the size of a medium-sized benchtop oscilloscope (like a Tek 525). We changed the 'Cac' code every day, as part of our pre-mission checkouts. Lloyd http://cryptomuseum.com/crypto/usa/index.htm Tactical crypto machines were smaller, lighter and less secure, since your comms about your mission became 'stale' and useless to ambush you once you returned to base. The good stuff, the KG-13 and KY-3, weighed several hundred pounds. We were safeguarding Army payroll data, which sounds silly until you realize that -where- troops were paid was important, not how much they made. For example Putin would really like to know if US tank commanders started receiving their pay in Ukraine. The Navy had a very serious leak back then: https://news.usni.org/2014/09/02/joh...ggest-betrayal --ave52G |
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Intresting Engine
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np269q$3h8$1
@dont-email.me: http://cryptomuseum.com/crypto/usa/index.htm The KW-7 looks darned familiar! I think that was the one we had on the boats. Lloyd |
#26
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Intresting Engine
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 4.170... "Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np269q$3h8$1 @dont-email.me: http://cryptomuseum.com/crypto/usa/index.htm The KW-7 looks darned familiar! I think that was the one we had on the boats. Lloyd It was meant to be used with a Teletype. |
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Intresting Engine
Ed Huntress wrote:
The "pseudo Atkinsons," like the engines in today's hybrids, have the same-length stroke for all four parts of the cycle. But they open the intake valve late so the cylinder is less-filled. My only quibble is that the trick, at least on the Honda, is this also means the intake valve CLOSES late, allowing some of the charge to be pushed back into the intake manifold. So, the compression stroke starts with the piston part way up the cylinder. This ends up with pretty low compression (or cylinder pressure, if you prefer) at ignition. I'm guessing the trick in the Nissan engine is they effectively reduce displacement while still achieving a good cylinder pressure at low horsepower settings. That ought to improve efficiency. Jon |
#28
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Intresting Engine
On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 14:04:28 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: The "pseudo Atkinsons," like the engines in today's hybrids, have the same-length stroke for all four parts of the cycle. But they open the intake valve late so the cylinder is less-filled. My only quibble is that the trick, at least on the Honda, is this also means the intake valve CLOSES late, allowing some of the charge to be pushed back into the intake manifold. So, the compression stroke starts with the piston part way up the cylinder. This ends up with pretty low compression (or cylinder pressure, if you prefer) at ignition. I'm guessing the trick in the Nissan engine is they effectively reduce displacement while still achieving a good cylinder pressure at low horsepower settings. That ought to improve efficiency. Jon I've never paid much attention to Atkinson engines, so I don't know what Honda is doing. BTW, the reason usually stated for *not* using the Atkinson cycle in regular engines is that they're not very tractable. I have read that they're slow to respond to the throttle, but beyond that, I don't have a clue. There must be a lot going on with the Nissan engine, combining the turbocharger, the variable compression, and the Arkinson cycle. They may have published a paper on it with SAE. That's where you get the details. -- Ed Huntress |
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Intresting Engine
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np287g$a6q$1
@dont-email.me: It was meant to be used with a Teletype. Well, then, that wasn't the one grin. Ours was voice. Lloyd |
#30
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Intresting Engine
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:18:14 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 20:17:29 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote: Granted, a $12k sliding table saw makes a slightly better cut (0.1 RCH)than an old 10" cast iron jobber (followed me home from Gunner's) but it also costs $12k more and would take up over half my shop. Does the saw do what you want it to do? If not..bring it back. (Grin) A $12k more expensive saw makes a "slightly better cut" and you think I want to get rid of my new used saw which I haven't yet assembled? OK, I'll go out back and lob it in your direction. It might miss your yard by 623 miles, but... I wish I had it together right now. I have to build a cabinet door for a client. A local cabinetmaker wanted $400 to do one for me. I asked him why he thought $25 worth of wood and an hour of his time would be worth that. It'll take me considerably longer because I don't have his shapers and spray booth, but I'll do a hand rubbed oil finish instead. In the interim, I'll rip with the Makita SP6000J and route with the rail and stile set from HF. Both make very decent cuts. http://tinyurl.com/hacsqwe and http://tinyurl.com/hlg4sto In 2 weeks, when I retire, I'm going to start getting a usable shop back together and add a few dozen feet more shelf space. Then maybe I'll be able to see floor in there again. sigh I can't wait! -- The great thing about getting older is that you don't lose all the other ages you've been. -- Madeleine L'Engle |
#31
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Intresting Engine
Ed Huntress wrote:
I've never paid much attention to Atkinson engines, so I don't know what Honda is doing. BTW, the reason usually stated for *not* using the Atkinson cycle in regular engines is that they're not very tractable. I have read that they're slow to respond to the throttle, but beyond that, I don't have a clue. The only reason they'd be slow to respond is if the mechanism that changes the valve timing is slow. I'm sure this is true in the Honda hybrid engine. They put a rotary hydraulic cylinder in the intake cam sprocket, and I'm guessing the control valve on that has a small orifice so that the computer can keep up with the change in valve timing. I assume it has some sensor on the cam so it can measure the valve timing every cam revolution. So, it probably takes a dozen cam revolutions to make a large change in timing. I can't imagine any other reason why it would be all that slow to respond. If there was some kind of immediate angle sensor in the sprocket so the computer had instant feedback of the valve timing, it could probably respond a lot faster. The hybrid system masks this, you can even see it on the battery gauge. Any time you push down on the gas pedal, the hybrid system applies power until the ICE ramps power up, the revers if you ease up on the pedal. it only takes 1/4 to 1/2 second to respond. There must be a lot going on with the Nissan engine, combining the turbocharger, the variable compression, and the Arkinson cycle. They may have published a paper on it with SAE. That's where you get the details. Yup, sounds like a lot to manage. Jon |
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Intresting Engine
wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np287g$a6q$1 @dont-email.me: It was meant to be used with a Teletype. Well, then, that wasn't the one grin. Ours was voice. Lloyd Yes, KW is ciphered teleprinter, KY is ciphered voice. Jon |
#33
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Intresting Engine
On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 16:43:46 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: I've never paid much attention to Atkinson engines, so I don't know what Honda is doing. BTW, the reason usually stated for *not* using the Atkinson cycle in regular engines is that they're not very tractable. I have read that they're slow to respond to the throttle, but beyond that, I don't have a clue. The only reason they'd be slow to respond is if the mechanism that changes the valve timing is slow. I'm sure this is true in the Honda hybrid engine. They put a rotary hydraulic cylinder in the intake cam sprocket, and I'm guessing the control valve on that has a small orifice so that the computer can keep up with the change in valve timing. I assume it has some sensor on the cam so it can measure the valve timing every cam revolution. So, it probably takes a dozen cam revolutions to make a large change in timing. I can't imagine any other reason why it would be all that slow to respond. If there was some kind of immediate angle sensor in the sprocket so the computer had instant feedback of the valve timing, it could probably respond a lot faster. The hybrid system masks this, you can even see it on the battery gauge. Any time you push down on the gas pedal, the hybrid system applies power until the ICE ramps power up, the revers if you ease up on the pedal. it only takes 1/4 to 1/2 second to respond. There must be a lot going on with the Nissan engine, combining the turbocharger, the variable compression, and the Arkinson cycle. They may have published a paper on it with SAE. That's where you get the details. Yup, sounds like a lot to manage. Jon I see that Nissan published several papers on the development of this engine, but the last one I saw was from 2006. I just read the abstract. -- Ed Huntress |
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Intresting Engine
On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 10:54:26 AM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:np1k70$4lj$1 @dont-email.me: The Army had the technology for encrypted voice and data cell phones by 1970. We were running crypto'd voice in 1968 on Navy River Boats, over in 'Nam; and I think they'd been using them for several years by the time I got there. The unit was about the size of a medium-sized benchtop oscilloscope (like a Tek 525). We changed the 'Cac' code every day, as part of our pre-mission checkouts. Lloyd Is this similar to the control head? http://ciphermachines.com/Gallery/in...oice-Scrambler That was the only voice scrambler I saw used on Marine aircraft in Vietnam. I figured the Navy used the same one but maybe the river boats were different? Had to change the codes at midnight every night. Code books were locked in a safe with two thermite grenades inside. If we got overrun, were supposed to set the grenades on top of the safe and set them off. Garrett |
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Intresting Engine
Garrett Fulton fired this volley in
: Is this similar to the control head? http://ciphermachines.com/Gallery/in...8-Voice-Scramb ler That was the only voice scrambler I saw used on Marine aircraft in Vietnam. I figured the Navy used the same one but maybe the river boats were different? Had to change the codes at midnight every night. Code books were locked in a safe with two thermite grenades inside. If we got overrun, were supposed to set the grenades on top of the safe and set them off. That doesn't ring any bells, mentally. I don't know. It was a long time ago in a land far, far away! I thought I remembered it being about half as big as the radar head. I remember that we had TWO forms of encryption. First was the box itself. Then, when we had to convey specific coordinates (say, for a strike, but NOT while under fire), we used a paper code-scrambler wheel, which they changed-out every week. They weren't taking any chances that Charlie could figure us out from our radio comms. Lloyd |
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Intresting Engine
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.170... Garrett Fulton fired this volley in : Is this similar to the control head? http://ciphermachines.com/Gallery/in...8-Voice-Scramb ler That was the only voice scrambler I saw used on Marine aircraft in Vietnam. I figured the Navy used the same one but maybe the river boats were different? Had to change the codes at midnight every night. Code books were locked in a safe with two thermite grenades inside. If we got overrun, were supposed to set the grenades on top of the safe and set them off. That doesn't ring any bells, mentally. I don't know. It was a long time ago in a land far, far away! I thought I remembered it being about half as big as the radar head. I remember that we had TWO forms of encryption. First was the box itself. Then, when we had to convey specific coordinates (say, for a strike, but NOT while under fire), we used a paper code-scrambler wheel, which they changed-out every week. They weren't taking any chances that Charlie could figure us out from our radio comms. Lloyd Radio Intercept was a very important weapon in the fight against U-boots, which were required to frequently report their position so they could be vectored toward Allied shipping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-f...ection_finding Although the position report was strongly encrypted, the direction they transmitted it from told the anti-sub forces all they needed to hunt it down. The Germans were well aware they could be located the same way they tracked down spy transmitters in France, but they didn't realize the British system could find them instantaneously using a method they had dismissed as inaccurate. It -was- inaccurate from distant land bases, but good enough when the HF/DF direction finder was on a destroyer trailing the sub. I heard about Spread Spectrum in 1970, though not if we used it in small tactical radios. It makes a radio transmission indistinguishable from static. --jsw |
#37
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Intresting Engine
On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 6:55:40 AM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Garrett Fulton fired this volley in : Is this similar to the control head? http://ciphermachines.com/Gallery/in...8-Voice-Scramb ler That was the only voice scrambler I saw used on Marine aircraft in Vietnam. I figured the Navy used the same one but maybe the river boats were different? Had to change the codes at midnight every night. Code books were locked in a safe with two thermite grenades inside. If we got overrun, were supposed to set the grenades on top of the safe and set them off. That doesn't ring any bells, mentally. I don't know. It was a long time ago in a land far, far away! I thought I remembered it being about half as big as the radar head. I remember that we had TWO forms of encryption. First was the box itself. Then, when we had to convey specific coordinates (say, for a strike, but NOT while under fire), we used a paper code-scrambler wheel, which they changed-out every week. They weren't taking any chances that Charlie could figure us out from our radio comms. Lloyd One thing the KY-28 units would do was to make a single "boop" sound in the headsets when you keyed the transmitter. Let you know it was ready to encrypt audio. Never saw the paper wheel units. Yeah, long time ago but it was interesting equipment. Garrett |
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Intresting Engine
Garrett Fulton fired this volley in
: One thing the KY-28 units would do was to make a single "boop" sound in the headsets when you keyed the transmitter. Let you know it was ready to encrypt audio. Yep. That was it! Lloyd |
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Intresting Engine
On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 2:15:11 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Garrett Fulton fired this volley in : One thing the KY-28 units would do was to make a single "boop" sound in the headsets when you keyed the transmitter. Let you know it was ready to encrypt audio. Yep. That was it! Lloyd Well, anyhow, a belated welcome home Sailor. Thank you for your service. |
#40
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Intresting Engine
Garrett Fulton fired this volley in
: Well, anyhow, a belated welcome home Sailor. Thank you, sir! L |
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