Martin Eastburn fired this volley in
:

Was the motor shorted ? is there a shorted winding and just sat there
in a stall current to long ?

Think of the SYSTEM LLoyd - not just the source. You might buy 2 or 3
VFD's yet.

Now if the VFD is turned on with the motor disconnected, there might be
another issue. And so forth.

All those things were checked, or known as dangers. The motor's not
shorted, not binding, and was not cutting _anything_ when the VFD failed;
wasn't even running.

The VFD was OFF prior to the failure. This failure occurred on power-up
of the system. The spindle motor was never commanded ON before the
internal fault code of the VFD was thrown. No smoke came out, either.

Oh... to the other respondent who suggested testing the VFD's filter caps
"at voltage", instead of a meter voltages -- yeah... did yesterday, just
to confirm. A) none of them look 'leaky' with a good DVM, and they all
were charged on power-up, so the rectifiers are working, too.

I've already got almost 1-1/2 hours trouble-shooting into this. If I
waste any more time on it (except perhaps 'hobby time' down the road),
I'm busting my own billing rate. It doesn't make sense. Seven hours of
f'in with it would cost me more in lost billing than a brand new VFD
costs!

New one gets here day-after-tomorrow.

L

Please...

I suppose the winding in the various motors take a blown Transistor
or Triac without blowing up. That is good. Likely the reason why the
VFD blows - cheaper to replace and ok in anger impulse.

Martin

On 6/27/2016 3:09 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 22:14:50 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

So the 10hp motor might not turn over as fast anymore and caused
excessive current to flow, blowing up the VFD. Dirty bearings maybe
just got enough. The load was applied when it was designed to be
off and turned on once the motor was up to speed...

Was the motor shorted ? is there a shorted winding and just sat there
in a stall current to long ?

Think of the SYSTEM LLoyd - not just the source. You might buy 2 or 3
VFD's yet.

Now if the VFD is turned on with the motor disconnected, there might be
another issue. And so forth.


Martin

VFD design has some strengths and some weaknesses. Many/most VFDs
have a couple of BIG capacitors in them...and they blow up and take
out the main power transistors. In fact..I have a decent sized box
with about 8 blown VFDs that came out of machines that were running
perfectly and then one day..they didnt work anymore. Generally inrush
current takes out the caps and then the trannys.

Mitsubishi was the worst in my experience..one could get about 10 yrs
out of them..then Poof.

My mill had one attached to it for a decade (PC3) ..and one day..it
quit. Caps went bad. Ive not gotten around to replacing them as of
yet.

ALL of the CNC machines that I fix use a VFD to run speed control,
along with a gearbox. When a cnc quites spinning the spindle..its
almost Always the VFD gone bad.

Gunner


On 6/26/2016 6:40 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Martin Eastburn fired this volley in
:

Try to understand why it blew - is it under strain due to dry shafts ?
Wrong lube or something causing more back pressure ... Might be
important to check first - less you buy another in due time.


It's 12 years old, used 8 hours a day, daily for 8years of that, and thrice
weekly for the last 4. "Dry Shafts"? "Back pressure"? "Wrong Lube"? This
is a VFD. A 10HP spindle driver.

It blew up upon application of power, not while cutting.

LLoyd


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On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 22:56:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

I suppose the winding in the various motors take a blown Transistor
or Triac without blowing up. That is good. Likely the reason why the
VFD blows - cheaper to replace and ok in anger impulse.

Martin

Of all the vfds I've replaced...only one could be found that was
caused by a shorted motor. Most VFDs (NOT ALL) have internal
protections that shut the VFD down if the motor fails.


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Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:


Of all the vfds I've replaced...only one could be found that was
caused by a shorted motor. Most VFDs (NOT ALL) have internal
protections that shut the VFD down if the motor fails.


Besides... no body reads details... they just see "blown up" and presume
their own conditions.

1) the spindle ran fine on the last job, and was stopped properly before
turning off the machine.
2) on the FIRST power-up of the VFD - BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO START THE
SPINDLE - the VFD threw the fault indicated earlier. No amount of
resetting, either by keypad or application/removal of power will clear
the fault.

Oh... and Gunner...
3) ShopSabre says they'll be switching over to Mitsubishi VFDs on all new
machines. If you need a new VFD, you can purchase an entire controller
upgrade, and they'll sell you a Mits to go along with it.

For me that means FOR SURE that I'm ripping the guts out of this toy and
putting in a decent control (and servos, I think).

There are lots of other things to do to it, also... like screw covers (of
which it has NONE). Like providing more hold-down inlets under the table
(only 4 in a 5x10 deck). Like making the hold-down grid board user-
replaceable. (It doesn't even come with a routing file to cut a new one,
and they sealed over all the screw pockets, so it requires destroying the
old sheet to get it off!)

It does have a nice, rigid table structure, though! G (The gantry, not
so much!)

Oh, well, I wanted to add a 5th axis to this thing, anyway.


LLoyd

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 06:27:09 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:


Of all the vfds I've replaced...only one could be found that was
caused by a shorted motor. Most VFDs (NOT ALL) have internal
protections that shut the VFD down if the motor fails.


Besides... no body reads details... they just see "blown up" and presume
their own conditions.

1) the spindle ran fine on the last job, and was stopped properly before
turning off the machine.
2) on the FIRST power-up of the VFD - BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO START THE
SPINDLE - the VFD threw the fault indicated earlier. No amount of
resetting, either by keypad or application/removal of power will clear
the fault.

I was down at my buddy Glenn's yesterday and he had recently had to
replace his VFD on his drill, a large, geared VSR he uses for drilling
and tapping directly.

The 1989 Hitachi VFD was working fine one day and released lots of
magic smoke and fire the next, vaporizing several traces on the
circuit board as it went. It also blew the labels and plastic bits off
the power transistors.


Oh... and Gunner...
3) ShopSabre says they'll be switching over to Mitsubishi VFDs on all new
machines. If you need a new VFD, you can purchase an entire controller
upgrade, and they'll sell you a Mits to go along with it.

For me that means FOR SURE that I'm ripping the guts out of this toy and
putting in a decent control (and servos, I think).

There are lots of other things to do to it, also... like screw covers (of
which it has NONE). Like providing more hold-down inlets under the table
(only 4 in a 5x10 deck). Like making the hold-down grid board user-
replaceable. (It doesn't even come with a routing file to cut a new one,
and they sealed over all the screw pockets, so it requires destroying the
old sheet to get it off!)

Don't you love mfgrs who do things like that?


It does have a nice, rigid table structure, though! G (The gantry, not
so much!)

Oh, well, I wanted to add a 5th axis to this thing, anyway.

g

--
Fear not those who argue but those who dodge.
-- Marie Ebner von Eschenbach

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 06:27:09 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:


Of all the vfds I've replaced...only one could be found that was
caused by a shorted motor. Most VFDs (NOT ALL) have internal
protections that shut the VFD down if the motor fails.


Besides... no body reads details... they just see "blown up" and presume
their own conditions.

1) the spindle ran fine on the last job, and was stopped properly before
turning off the machine.
2) on the FIRST power-up of the VFD - BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO START THE
SPINDLE - the VFD threw the fault indicated earlier. No amount of
resetting, either by keypad or application/removal of power will clear
the fault.

Oh... and Gunner...
3) ShopSabre says they'll be switching over to Mitsubishi VFDs on all new
machines. If you need a new VFD, you can purchase an entire controller
upgrade, and they'll sell you a Mits to go along with it.

Not terribly sure Mits is the way to go..but they may have improved
them a Bunch. They probably got a really good deal on em.
Manufacturing/industrial economy is tanking...shrug.

For me that means FOR SURE that I'm ripping the guts out of this toy and
putting in a decent control (and servos, I think).

There are lots of other things to do to it, also... like screw covers (of
which it has NONE). Like providing more hold-down inlets under the table
(only 4 in a 5x10 deck). Like making the hold-down grid board user-
replaceable. (It doesn't even come with a routing file to cut a new one,
and they sealed over all the screw pockets, so it requires destroying the
old sheet to get it off!)

It does have a nice, rigid table structure, though! G (The gantry, not
so much!)

Oh, well, I wanted to add a 5th axis to this thing, anyway.


LLoyd

Sounds like a FUN project!

Anybody want a CNC mill do do that with...let me know TODAY..Ive got a
Sharnoa CNC mill, 40 taper with a Tiger control on it..supposed to
work but needs the keyboard..which may be a bitch to find..so doing a
retrofit would be the nads. NICE machine!

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...47228241195714

Want it for free? I can probably hold it for that long. Located in
Santa Ana California. But speak before Friday!!


Gunner



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On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:41:41 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


1) the spindle ran fine on the last job, and was stopped properly before
turning off the machine.
2) on the FIRST power-up of the VFD - BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO START THE
SPINDLE - the VFD threw the fault indicated earlier. No amount of
resetting, either by keypad or application/removal of power will clear
the fault.

I was down at my buddy Glenn's yesterday and he had recently had to
replace his VFD on his drill, a large, geared VSR he uses for drilling
and tapping directly.

The 1989 Hitachi VFD was working fine one day and released lots of
magic smoke and fire the next, vaporizing several traces on the
circuit board as it went. It also blew the labels and plastic bits off
the power transistors.

Ive got a spare Hitachi, NOS in the box. but IRRC..its only 3hp

Gunner

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Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Ive got a spare Hitachi, NOS in the box. but IRRC..its only 3hp

Good deal, but not adequate -- 5HP spindle!

(and I run it to the limit now and then...)

Lloyd

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 17:43:28 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Ive got a spare Hitachi, NOS in the box. but IRRC..its only 3hp

Good deal, but not adequate -- 5HP spindle!

(and I run it to the limit now and then...)

Lloyd

Soon as it cools off a bit, Ill go out and dig it out and see exactly
what it is. I had it on a 3/4 hp drill press but it sang so loudly
that it drove me nuts and replaced it with an older 1hp drive from
another manufacture.. I dont remember what it is, but Ill find out.

Gunner
Currently 113F outside



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Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:


Soon as it cools off a bit, Ill go out and dig it out and see exactly
what it is. I had it on a 3/4 hp drill press but it sang so loudly
that it drove me nuts and replaced it with an older 1hp drive from
another manufacture.. I dont remember what it is, but Ill find out.

I'd be interested, because I'm going to re-fit this stupid machine. It
wouldn't work with the current control - being tied to some proprietary
Delta features - but would be fine (if it's big enough) for the Mach-3
installation I am planning to do.

Lloyd

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 19:44:21 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:


Soon as it cools off a bit, Ill go out and dig it out and see exactly
what it is. I had it on a 3/4 hp drill press but it sang so loudly
that it drove me nuts and replaced it with an older 1hp drive from
another manufacture.. I dont remember what it is, but Ill find out.

I'd be interested, because I'm going to re-fit this stupid machine. It
wouldn't work with the current control - being tied to some proprietary
Delta features - but would be fine (if it's big enough) for the Mach-3
installation I am planning to do.

Lloyd

Sorry Lloyd..its 3hp.

Ive been a huge fan of the PC3 vfds..they have been badged many
different ways...Yaskawa IRRC was the developer..and they are
really..really good drives.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/YASKAWA-5-HP...-/351771321721

Its a slightly updated PC3..so look at the photo and remember what
they look like. They often came badged as a Telemechanic(sp?) as well
as Magnatech and EMS
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAGNETEK-GPD...-/291581988070

If it says GDP on the face anywhere..its likely to be the same
drive..different badging




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That naturally assumes the "VFD shutdown circuit" didn't fail and thus
kill itself off.

Once anti-snubbing circuits open from overuse then the magic comes out
of the box in the form of smoke.

Marti

On 6/28/2016 10:31 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 22:56:27 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

I suppose the winding in the various motors take a blown Transistor
or Triac without blowing up. That is good. Likely the reason why the
VFD blows - cheaper to replace and ok in anger impulse.

Martin

Of all the vfds I've replaced...only one could be found that was
caused by a shorted motor. Most VFDs (NOT ALL) have internal
protections that shut the VFD down if the motor fails.


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