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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
I need to drill about 100 holes (around 5/16") in 1/8" hot roll plate. I
usually just use cutting oil from the hardware store, works fine, makes a huge mess. Steel tube will be welded to the plates, each drilled with with 4 holes for fastening to supports for countertops. Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Any real difference between the two for hand drilling or use with a drill press, or good reasons to pick one over the other for specific jobs? |
#2
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:58 PM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I need to drill about 100 holes (around 5/16") in 1/8" hot roll plate. I usually just use cutting oil from the hardware store, works fine, makes a huge mess. Steel tube will be welded to the plates, each drilled with with 4 holes for fastening to supports for countertops. Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Any real difference between the two for hand drilling or use with a drill press, or good reasons to pick one over the other for specific jobs? Oil does a much better job protecting the cutting edge but it doesn't cool very well. This is especially true on difficult to machine alloys. |
#3
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
In article , Cydrome Leader
wrote: I need to drill about 100 holes (around 5/16") in 1/8" hot roll plate. I usually just use cutting oil from the hardware store, works fine, makes a huge mess. Steel tube will be welded to the plates, each drilled with with 4 holes for fastening to supports for countertops. Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Any real difference between the two for hand drilling or use with a drill press, or good reasons to pick one over the other for specific jobs? Drill press is far easier and better than hand drilling, if you can use the drill press. I usually use plumbers black sulfur oil, but it is messy for sure. What I also use with success is oil emulsion cutting fluid, such as Rustlick WS-5050, at high concentration (as defined on the label). This still leaves an oil film, so you will need to clean things if painting is intended. Joe Gwinn |
#4
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 20:24:56 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: I need to drill about 100 holes (around 5/16") in 1/8" hot roll plate. I usually just use cutting oil from the hardware store, works fine, makes a huge mess. Steel tube will be welded to the plates, each drilled with with 4 holes for fastening to supports for countertops. Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Any real difference between the two for hand drilling or use with a drill press, or good reasons to pick one over the other for specific jobs? I make my living as a machinist using CNC and manual machines. Virtually all the machining I do uses water soluble oil at about 8% concentration in water. It works great. A big enemy of HSS drills is overheating. The drill steel gets relatively soft and dulls. When hand drilling this can be a problem because it is often hard to apply enough pressure to keep the drill bit cutting and the operator often has the drill spinning too fast. So a water soluble oil coolant works well because not only does it supply high pressure additives it also removes heat very fast and keeps the drill bit cool. Eric |
#5
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
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#6
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
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#7
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:03:19 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 20:24:56 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: I need to drill about 100 holes (around 5/16") in 1/8" hot roll plate. I usually just use cutting oil from the hardware store, works fine, makes a huge mess. Steel tube will be welded to the plates, each drilled with with 4 holes for fastening to supports for countertops. Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Any real difference between the two for hand drilling or use with a drill press, or good reasons to pick one over the other for specific jobs? I make my living as a machinist using CNC and manual machines. Virtually all the machining I do uses water soluble oil at about 8% concentration in water. It works great. A big enemy of HSS drills is overheating. The drill steel gets relatively soft and dulls. When hand drilling this can be a problem because it is often hard to apply enough pressure to keep the drill bit cutting and the operator often has the drill spinning too fast. So a water soluble oil coolant works well because not only does it supply high pressure additives it also removes heat very fast and keeps the drill bit cool. Eric Any favorite coolants you use? I'll order something something from MSC. Prices range from $35 to $50 for a gallon for the water based coolant concentrates. For drilling with plain cutting oil, I tend to be happy when the oil just starts to smoke, and for whatever reason, I've always had better luck with HSS bits over cobalt which I tend to ruin faster. The HSS can be cleaned up with even a worn out stone and will cut again. Any suggestions for how hard you can push things with the water based stuff? A few squirts from the spray bottle here and there is the amount I'd be able to apply. Well..many of my clients run cobalt or tungstun at 2000-3000 and ..003-.009 per rev feed. HSS tends to go down to 800-1200 at the same feed rates This of course depends on the size of the drill bit. Remember...the bigger the bit..the slower you turn. Feed rates remain the same. |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:03:19 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 20:24:56 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: I need to drill about 100 holes (around 5/16") in 1/8" hot roll plate. I usually just use cutting oil from the hardware store, works fine, makes a huge mess. Steel tube will be welded to the plates, each drilled with with 4 holes for fastening to supports for countertops. Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Any real difference between the two for hand drilling or use with a drill press, or good reasons to pick one over the other for specific jobs? I make my living as a machinist using CNC and manual machines. Virtually all the machining I do uses water soluble oil at about 8% concentration in water. It works great. A big enemy of HSS drills is overheating. The drill steel gets relatively soft and dulls. When hand drilling this can be a problem because it is often hard to apply enough pressure to keep the drill bit cutting and the operator often has the drill spinning too fast. So a water soluble oil coolant works well because not only does it supply high pressure additives it also removes heat very fast and keeps the drill bit cool. Eric Any favorite coolants you use? I'll order something something from MSC. Prices range from $35 to $50 for a gallon for the water based coolant concentrates. For drilling with plain cutting oil, I tend to be happy when the oil just starts to smoke, and for whatever reason, I've always had better luck with HSS bits over cobalt which I tend to ruin faster. The HSS can be cleaned up with even a worn out stone and will cut again. Any suggestions for how hard you can push things with the water based stuff? A few squirts from the spray bottle here and there is the amount I'd be able to apply. Well..many of my clients run cobalt or tungstun at 2000-3000 and .003-.009 per rev feed. HSS tends to go down to 800-1200 at the same feed rates This of course depends on the size of the drill bit. Remember...the bigger the bit..the slower you turn. Feed rates remain the same. I suspect it has something to do with the angles they bits are cut. The cobalt stuff from a good hardware store is usually 135 degrees. I seem to wear the tips out real quick, large or small. Never really figured out why. |
#9
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:59:44 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: I suspect it has something to do with the angles they bits are cut. The cobalt stuff from a good hardware store is usually 135 degrees. I seem to wear the tips out real quick, large or small. Never really figured out why. Are you wearing the edges or chipping them? Common high speed steel (M2) is tougher than cobalt high speed steel (M42). M42 is more wear resistant and has higher heat tolerance. The edges on M42 drills will chip much more easily than common HSS drills, so I don't personally think they're a good choice for general use in hand drills. -- Ned Simmons |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:59:44 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: I suspect it has something to do with the angles they bits are cut. The cobalt stuff from a good hardware store is usually 135 degrees. I seem to wear the tips out real quick, large or small. Never really figured out why. Are you wearing the edges or chipping them? Common high speed steel (M2) is tougher than cobalt high speed steel (M42). M42 is more wear resistant and has higher heat tolerance. The edges on M42 drills will chip much more easily than common HSS drills, so I don't personally think they're a good choice for general use in hand drills. -- Ned Simmons |
#11
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:59:44 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:03:19 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 20:24:56 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: I need to drill about 100 holes (around 5/16") in 1/8" hot roll plate. I usually just use cutting oil from the hardware store, works fine, makes a huge mess. Steel tube will be welded to the plates, each drilled with with 4 holes for fastening to supports for countertops. Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Any real difference between the two for hand drilling or use with a drill press, or good reasons to pick one over the other for specific jobs? I make my living as a machinist using CNC and manual machines. Virtually all the machining I do uses water soluble oil at about 8% concentration in water. It works great. A big enemy of HSS drills is overheating. The drill steel gets relatively soft and dulls. When hand drilling this can be a problem because it is often hard to apply enough pressure to keep the drill bit cutting and the operator often has the drill spinning too fast. So a water soluble oil coolant works well because not only does it supply high pressure additives it also removes heat very fast and keeps the drill bit cool. Eric Any favorite coolants you use? I'll order something something from MSC. Prices range from $35 to $50 for a gallon for the water based coolant concentrates. For drilling with plain cutting oil, I tend to be happy when the oil just starts to smoke, and for whatever reason, I've always had better luck with HSS bits over cobalt which I tend to ruin faster. The HSS can be cleaned up with even a worn out stone and will cut again. Any suggestions for how hard you can push things with the water based stuff? A few squirts from the spray bottle here and there is the amount I'd be able to apply. Well..many of my clients run cobalt or tungstun at 2000-3000 and .003-.009 per rev feed. HSS tends to go down to 800-1200 at the same feed rates This of course depends on the size of the drill bit. Remember...the bigger the bit..the slower you turn. Feed rates remain the same. I suspect it has something to do with the angles they bits are cut. The cobalt stuff from a good hardware store is usually 135 degrees. I seem to wear the tips out real quick, large or small. Never really figured out why. Then simply order split point drills from MSC or other suppliers of GOOD drill bits. Ive found "Vermont" at the local hardware stores..and they are hardly "good". They are "passible in a pinch"..but thats about all. https://www.google.com/search?q=spli...utf-8&oe=utf-8 Gunner |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:03:19 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 20:24:56 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: I need to drill about 100 holes (around 5/16") in 1/8" hot roll plate. I usually just use cutting oil from the hardware store, works fine, makes a huge mess. Steel tube will be welded to the plates, each drilled with with 4 holes for fastening to supports for countertops. Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Any real difference between the two for hand drilling or use with a drill press, or good reasons to pick one over the other for specific jobs? I make my living as a machinist using CNC and manual machines. Virtually all the machining I do uses water soluble oil at about 8% concentration in water. It works great. A big enemy of HSS drills is overheating. The drill steel gets relatively soft and dulls. When hand drilling this can be a problem because it is often hard to apply enough pressure to keep the drill bit cutting and the operator often has the drill spinning too fast. So a water soluble oil coolant works well because not only does it supply high pressure additives it also removes heat very fast and keeps the drill bit cool. Eric Any favorite coolants you use? I'll order something something from MSC. Prices range from $35 to $50 for a gallon for the water based coolant concentrates. For drilling with plain cutting oil, I tend to be happy when the oil just starts to smoke, and for whatever reason, I've always had better luck with HSS bits over cobalt which I tend to ruin faster. The HSS can be cleaned up with even a worn out stone and will cut again. Any suggestions for how hard you can push things with the water based stuff? A few squirts from the spray bottle here and there is the amount I'd be able to apply. You can push pretty much as hard as you can when drilling steel with a 5/16 split point drill. Smaller drills less so. As long as the drill is making a chip. Squirt a little coolant, drill a little, pull the drill away from the work, squirt more coolant, and so on. If the chips are starting to turn blue you are not keeping things cool enough. This can be from too heavy feed rate, not enough coolant, or a combination of the two. I used to use Trim-Sol soluble oil. Used it for years. It's pretty good stuff but if some gets in your coffee it makes the coffee taste so bad you might have a hard time drinking coffee for a few days. I now use Blasocut 2000 CF because it is pretty benign. Blasocut is made by Swisslube. I don't know if it is available in gallon sizes. The Rutland coolant is OK too. In my experience all the water soluble oils I have used will work OK in your situation. Eric |
#13
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
If you have a horizontal saw and if it runs coolant - that is rust
preventing water based coolant. (most likely). That can be used in a pinch. Martin On 7/10/2015 3:24 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote: I need to drill about 100 holes (around 5/16") in 1/8" hot roll plate. I usually just use cutting oil from the hardware store, works fine, makes a huge mess. Steel tube will be welded to the plates, each drilled with with 4 holes for fastening to supports for countertops. Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Any real difference between the two for hand drilling or use with a drill press, or good reasons to pick one over the other for specific jobs? |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
Martin Eastburn wrote:
If you have a horizontal saw and if it runs coolant - that is rust preventing water based coolant. (most likely). That can be used in a pinch. I ordered the rustlick ws-5050, been spraying the first mix of 1:10 on scrap metal outside to see how quick it rusts or doesn't rust stuff. Unfortunately, I tried Enco for this stuff and ordered two drill bits, to try out oil vs. water based coolant. Of course the cheapo bits were completely different from each other while technically still the same style and size. They did the same thing with some 45/90 degree welding magnets, one is made in USA like in the photo and made well, the other is some chicom garbage from the same manufacturer. That one has to go back. Ugh. |
#15
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
Martin Eastburn wrote:
If you have a horizontal saw and if it runs coolant - that is rust preventing water based coolant. (most likely). That can be used in a pinch. Oh, forgot the key part of the message. Can coolants be used with a portaband (on the whatever the Milwaukee equivalent is called) saw, or does that mess up the rubber wheels or bearings? |
#16
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:35:18 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: Martin Eastburn wrote: If you have a horizontal saw and if it runs coolant - that is rust preventing water based coolant. (most likely). That can be used in a pinch. Oh, forgot the key part of the message. Can coolants be used with a portaband (on the whatever the Milwaukee equivalent is called) saw, or does that mess up the rubber wheels or bearings? It will mess up the rubber over time. However they are easy to change out. Gunner |
#17
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
In article , Gunner Asch
wrote: On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:35:18 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: Martin Eastburn wrote: If you have a horizontal saw and if it runs coolant - that is rust preventing water based coolant. (most likely). That can be used in a pinch. Oh, forgot the key part of the message. Can coolants be used with a portaband (on the whatever the Milwaukee equivalent is called) saw, or does that mess up the rubber wheels or bearings? It will mess up the rubber over time. However they are easy to change out. As will oil. Try wax instead. There is a kind of wax made for just this. I use the one made by Lenox. Joe Gwinn |
#18
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 20:18:44 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote: In article , Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:35:18 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: Martin Eastburn wrote: If you have a horizontal saw and if it runs coolant - that is rust preventing water based coolant. (most likely). That can be used in a pinch. Oh, forgot the key part of the message. Can coolants be used with a portaband (on the whatever the Milwaukee equivalent is called) saw, or does that mess up the rubber wheels or bearings? It will mess up the rubber over time. However they are easy to change out. As will oil. Try wax instead. There is a kind of wax made for just this. I use the one made by Lenox. Joe Gwinn Right. Wax lubricants for bandsaws are available from several sources -- DoAll, Lenox, Olson, etc. You can even get it on Amazon. It's the best stuff. When I cut metal on my old 14" Delta, I use a stick I got from DoAll around 35 years ago. It lasts for a long time. -- Ed Huntress |
#19
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 20:18:44 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote: In article , Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:35:18 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: Martin Eastburn wrote: If you have a horizontal saw and if it runs coolant - that is rust preventing water based coolant. (most likely). That can be used in a pinch. Oh, forgot the key part of the message. Can coolants be used with a portaband (on the whatever the Milwaukee equivalent is called) saw, or does that mess up the rubber wheels or bearings? It will mess up the rubber over time. However they are easy to change out. As will oil. Try wax instead. There is a kind of wax made for just this. I use the one made by Lenox. Joe Gwinn Castrol of all people sold/sells a band saw wax as well. I have a tube of it on my bandsaw for difficult cuts Gunner |
#20
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:35:18 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: Can coolants be used with a portaband (on the whatever the Milwaukee equivalent is called) saw, or does that mess up the rubber wheels or bearings? Not recommended. The lube that Rockwell recommended and supplied with my PortaBand is a tube of beeswax. I wore that saw out and now have a Milwaukee unit. Same tube of beeswax still working great. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.fluxeon.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#21
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
Neon John wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:35:18 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote: Can coolants be used with a portaband (on the whatever the Milwaukee equivalent is called) saw, or does that mess up the rubber wheels or bearings? Not recommended. The lube that Rockwell recommended and supplied with my PortaBand is a tube of beeswax. I wore that saw out and now have a Milwaukee unit. Same tube of beeswax still working great. I do have a tube of some sort of cutting wax, have used it with larger taps with success. I never did see what it did with the portaband saw. Tried it on a hacksaw for the hell of it and all it did was bind to the metal being cut off a clog the teeth. Had to clean the blade with a file card to use it again. |
#22
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 16:10:38 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote: I do have a tube of some sort of cutting wax, have used it with larger taps with success. I never did see what it did with the portaband saw. Tried it on a hacksaw for the hell of it and all it did was bind to the metal being cut off a clog the teeth. Had to clean the blade with a file card to use it again. the beeswax works well because the blade gets hot enough to melt it; the liquid wax flowing out of the cut carries away the chips. I think you'd have to work pretty hard to get a hacksaw hot enough to do that. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.fluxeon.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#23
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 3:24:58 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I need to drill about 100 holes (around 5/16") in 1/8" hot roll plate. I usually just use cutting oil from the hardware store, works fine, makes a huge mess. Steel tube will be welded to the plates, each drilled with with 4 holes for fastening to supports for countertops. Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Any real difference between the two for hand drilling or use with a drill press, or good reasons to pick one over the other for specific jobs? I bought about 8 gallons of Chevron water soluble oil at an estate sale a few months ago ($8). Haven't touched it because I didn't know for sure if it was usable in my all-manual shop. I mostly cut mild steel and aluminum, using WD40 on aluminum. I did take a small job in SS which gave me fits. Would the soluble oil have made that cut better? |
#24
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 4:24:58 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Welding instructor uses a spray bottle of a water based coolant, something milky looking. It's not as messy and doesn't make everything rust either. I tried it, but with a dull bit, it wasn't really a test of anything meaningful for the short time I tried it out. Maybe (or not) applicable to your HRS drilling, but when I drill (usually 1/4" pilots and then step-drill to size) conduit holes in stainless enclosures, I use a spray bottle of 91% isopropyl as a coolant. Works great, evaporates cleanly, cheap enough at Walgreens. Did about 30 of those holes for 1/2" - 1" pipes last week. |
#25
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hand drilling- cutting oil vs. water soluble stuff
--Soluble oil is great stuff but you might want to set it up in a spray mist unit if you're able to do the job on a mill or drillpress so you've always got coverage. Hot rolled is nasty stuff at least until you break thru the 'crust' so go slow when you start the holes. One brand you might want to try is Westlube. I use it straight for stainless and titanium but you could probably thin it a bit on hot rolled to make it go a little further.
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