On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in one and see
what's left afterwards. The British found out that aluminium
superstructures and exocet missiles don't go well together with the
resulting fire during the Falklands war.

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:01:13 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:


A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.

Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost stiffness by
crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a steel
one. But its ability to resist dents and dings depends on the panel
shape -- in particular, how much it is curved, or crowned.
The 3/16" 6061 T6 skid plate on the old Datsun 510 rally car took one
heck of a beating and didn't show a dent, while friends with heavier
steel plates had them all mangled in one season. It was a bugger to
get bent to the correct shape to fit in the first place - much more
difficult than the thinner and heavier steel plates. It had no
compound curves to add stifness either.

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 11:21:17 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:


A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.

Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost stiffness by
crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a steel
one. But its ability to resist dents and dings depends on the panel
shape -- in particular, how much it is curved, or crowned.

My big worry with aluminum and such alloys is fatigue resistance. All
the aluminum products I've had fail did so because a boss or weld or
the like fatigued and broke free. Typically not economically
repairable, although in a car the economics will differ.

Joe Gwinn
With aluminum you need to make it stout enough that it doesn't move,
because ANY movement causes stress fatigue - unlike steel where as
long as you don't excede the elastic limit the stress does not build
up

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 11:21:17 -0400
Joe Gwinn wrote:

snip
My big worry with aluminum and such alloys is fatigue resistance. All
the aluminum products I've had fail did so because a boss or weld or
the like fatigued and broke free. Typically not economically
repairable, although in a car the economics will differ.

And mine is how will they hold up to all the deicing chemicals spread
willy-nilly on our roads all winter long?

I think the electric vehicles are going to have problems due to the
salt and cold too. Only time will tell I guess...

Heck they can't even keep their brake-lines from rusting through in the
rust belt. NHTSA says that people have to wash their vehicles more
often...

http://www.abc2news.com/business/con...-wash-your-car

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 14:23:35 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 11:21:17 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:


A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.

Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost stiffness by
crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a steel
one. But its ability to resist dents and dings depends on the panel
shape -- in particular, how much it is curved, or crowned.

My big worry with aluminum and such alloys is fatigue resistance. All
the aluminum products I've had fail did so because a boss or weld or
the like fatigued and broke free. Typically not economically
repairable, although in a car the economics will differ.

Joe Gwinn
With aluminum you need to make it stout enough that it doesn't move,
because ANY movement causes stress fatigue - unlike steel where as
long as you don't excede the elastic limit the stress does not build
up

Hmmm....not quite. True fatigue occurs at cyclic loadings somewhat
below the yield strength of any common structural metal. The
differences between steel fatigue and aluminum fatigue have to do with
the "endurance limit" of steel. Below certain levels of loading, steel
will not fatigue.

That's not true for aluminum. Somewhere in the range of 10^6 and 10^7
cycles, steel's tendency to break from fatigue flattens out. With
aluminum, the curve never flattens. Even small loads, repeated often
enough, will cause aluminum (or copper) to break from fatigue.

But all of this occurs at loadings lower than the yield strength of
the material.

These two Wikipedia descriptions are pretty good, and succinct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_%28material%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit


Or, if you're in need of a good read, here's ASM's discussion:

http://www.asminternational.org/docu..._Chapter14.pdf

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 14:21:46 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:01:13 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:


A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.

Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost stiffness by
crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a steel
one. But its ability to resist dents and dings depends on the panel
shape -- in particular, how much it is curved, or crowned.
The 3/16" 6061 T6 skid plate on the old Datsun 510 rally car took one
heck of a beating and didn't show a dent, while friends with heavier
steel plates had them all mangled in one season. It was a bugger to
get bent to the correct shape to fit in the first place - much more
difficult than the thinner and heavier steel plates. It had no
compound curves to add stifness either.

Very likely it was the lack of curves that gave you better
performance. My description above may have led to the wrong
conclusion: it's a LACK of locally-stiffening compound curves that
allows the sheet to spring away and avoid a dent, if the impact has a
sufficiently short travel. In other words, a short, sharp blow will
allow a flat plate to spring away, but a curved panel puts up local
resistance surrounding the impact and the result is that the impact
overloads the yield stength of the panel in that local spot. Curved
panels make the material stiffer but also more prone to dent.

Your skid plate probably was stiffer and almost certainly stronger, at
T6, than the thinner steel plates. But, being flat, the panel as a
whole could spring away from an intrusion by a rock. The steel, having
lower stiffness and strength, was simply overloaded at the point where
it would bottom on a rock.

Or something like that. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 14:28:44 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 11:21:17 -0400
Joe Gwinn wrote:

snip
My big worry with aluminum and such alloys is fatigue resistance. All
the aluminum products I've had fail did so because a boss or weld or
the like fatigued and broke free. Typically not economically
repairable, although in a car the economics will differ.

And mine is how will they hold up to all the deicing chemicals spread
willy-nilly on our roads all winter long?

Probably much better than steel. They make salt water workboats out of
5052 and 6061.


I think the electric vehicles are going to have problems due to the
salt and cold too. Only time will tell I guess...

Heck they can't even keep their brake-lines from rusting through in the
rust belt. NHTSA says that people have to wash their vehicles more
often...

http://www.abc2news.com/business/con...-wash-your-car

--
Ed Huntress

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 11:57:53 AM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 14:21:46 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:01:13 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:


A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.

Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost stiffness by
crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a steel
one. But its ability to resist dents and dings depends on the panel
shape -- in particular, how much it is curved, or crowned.
The 3/16" 6061 T6 skid plate on the old Datsun 510 rally car took one
heck of a beating and didn't show a dent, while friends with heavier
steel plates had them all mangled in one season. It was a bugger to
get bent to the correct shape to fit in the first place - much more
difficult than the thinner and heavier steel plates. It had no
compound curves to add stifness either.

Very likely it was the lack of curves that gave you better
performance. My description above may have led to the wrong
conclusion: it's a LACK of locally-stiffening compound curves that
allows the sheet to spring away and avoid a dent, if the impact has a
sufficiently short travel. In other words, a short, sharp blow will
allow a flat plate to spring away, but a curved panel puts up local
resistance surrounding the impact and the result is that the impact
overloads the yield stength of the panel in that local spot. Curved
panels make the material stiffer but also more prone to dent.

Your skid plate probably was stiffer and almost certainly stronger, at
T6, than the thinner steel plates. But, being flat, the panel as a
whole could spring away from an intrusion by a rock. The steel, having
lower stiffness and strength, was simply overloaded at the point where
it would bottom on a rock.

Or something like that. g

--
Ed Huntress


Doesn't really matter if it's aluminum or steel. slow eddy couldn't repair it properly.

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:01:13 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:



Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness.

Stiffness in bending varies with the cube of thickness. Strength is
proportional to the thickness _squared_. For simple cases and for the
sake of rough comparisons, anyway.

--
Ned Simmons

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 15:46:21 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:01:13 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:



Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness.

Stiffness in bending varies with the cube of thickness. Strength is
proportional to the thickness _squared_. For simple cases and for the
sake of rough comparisons, anyway.

Ah, right, Ned. Thanks. I always forget that because I'm almost always
looking at stiffness.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 11:31:13 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:


A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't
hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn
service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around
in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't
really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel.
LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than
most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there
are tougher alloya
apparently.

I would think it is a 5xxx series alloy. It is
work hardening
and corrosion resistant. The more it is abused the
stronger it gets. Boats are typically made from it
for that
reason. Salt hauling trailers are also made from
it.
If it is made from 6061 there will be corrosion
complaints.


Aluminum boats are primarily 5000 series alloys because of corrosion
resistance. Next in line of importance is the welding of it doesn't
have the same weakening effect in the HAZ that it does on 6000 series
alloys.
Eric, from Whidbey Island, where lots of aluminum boats are built, and
where I deal a lot with aluminum boat builders.
Eric

On 4/18/2015 3:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 15:46:21 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:01:13 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:



Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness.

Stiffness in bending varies with the cube of thickness. Strength is
proportional to the thickness _squared_. For simple cases and for the
sake of rough comparisons, anyway.

Ah, right, Ned. Thanks. I always forget that because I'm almost always
looking at stiffness.

Braggart!

David

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 17:42:27 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 4/18/2015 3:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 15:46:21 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:01:13 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:



Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness.

Stiffness in bending varies with the cube of thickness. Strength is
proportional to the thickness _squared_. For simple cases and for the
sake of rough comparisons, anyway.

Ah, right, Ned. Thanks. I always forget that because I'm almost always
looking at stiffness.

Braggart!

David

Oh, jesus. g No, not that kind of stiffness. Chassis stiffness. Tool
stiffness -- and not that kind of tool, either. Whipped egg-white
stiffness. You know. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 11:31:13 -0400, "Phil
Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete
Keillor
wrote:


A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't
hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for
lawn
service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging
around
in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't
really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel.
LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than
most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and
there
are tougher alloya
apparently.

I would think it is a 5xxx series alloy. It is
work hardening
and corrosion resistant. The more it is abused
the
stronger it gets. Boats are typically made from
it
for that
reason. Salt hauling trailers are also made from
it.
If it is made from 6061 there will be corrosion
complaints.


Aluminum boats are primarily 5000 series alloys
because of corrosion
resistance. Next in line of importance is the
welding of it doesn't
have the same weakening effect in the HAZ that
it does on 6000 series
alloys.
Eric, from Whidbey Island, where lots of
aluminum boats are built, and
where I deal a lot with aluminum boat builders.
Eric

+ 1 phil k.

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...



I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!

"Richard" wrote in message
...
On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four
stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20
minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers
have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's
aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...



I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these
things are going to cost!

They start at $25,000.

-jsw

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 20:12:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...



I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!

They start around $26,000 and go north, fast.

They're already on the market, Richard. You can check out the actual
prices.

--
Ed Huntress

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in
one and see what's left afterwards.

Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in
one and see what's left afterwards.

Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

Try taking a piece of aluminum sheet and see if you can start a fire
with it.

When you get frustrated, come on back and we can talk about why that
happened.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in
one and see what's left afterwards.

Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

I think you need to do a little further checking, especially regarding
the cause of fires from aluminum wiring -- since you apparently are an
electrician.

In such a fire, the aluminum wire doesn't burn. It starts a fire in
the surrounding material through one of two causes: a high-resistance
overheating, caused by loosening of the connection (aluminum's thermal
expansion rate makes it unsuitable for use with conventional wiring
connections); or from arcing caused by "micro-fretting" of the
aluminum. If you're involved in electrical wiring for buildings, you
should know this.

The flammability of aluminum, contrary to popular mythology, is very
low. The flammability tests performed at atmospheric pressure, in air,
consistently show that it won't sustain a fire. The flammability tests
you're probably seeing are conducted in pure oxygen at pressures above
atmospheric.

Aluminum powder is combustible and explosive. Wrought or cast aluminum
is not. The British warship that burned in the Falkland Islands war,
the Sheffield, did not have an aluminum superstructure, contrary to
ill-informed media reports. It was steel. And it did not burn. Diesel
fuel is what burned.

The video of a Ford truck prototype burning, that someone posted here
yesterday, apparently do not show the aluminum burning. It shows the
vinyl "disguise" cover burning, and burning of the plastics and
probably some fuel, but the aluminum just melted into a heap.

So be careful about the ideas you're promoting about aluminum burning.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in
one and see what's left afterwards.

Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

Try taking a piece of aluminum sheet and see if you can start a fire
with it.

When you get frustrated, come on back and we can talk about why that
happened.

--
Ed Huntress


Do you mean the same aluminum sheet you gave up trying to form and quit on?

Talk about not being able to handle frustration!

The reason slow eddy is a worthless, ad copy writer with no clues is that he has no talent for metalworking. slow eddy thinks he can learn metalworking from reading a book. The same applies to race engine building... another one of slow eddy's many failures.

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 10:53:16 AM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:

I think you need to do a little further checking, especially regarding
the cause of fires from aluminum wiring -- since you apparently are an
electrician.


Apparently?

Why doesn't slow eddy just ask him?

Is this yet another example of slow eddy getting it wrong because he makes assumptions rather than having the guts to ask?

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 10:54:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:


Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

I do not think that means very much. I did a search on " Flammability of water " and got 6,470,000 search results. Do you think that water is much more flammable than steel?

Aluminum powder will burn fairly easily, but if you use a oxy acet torch on aluminum , you just get blobs of melted aluminum. Steel on the other hand can be cut with a oxy acet torch.

Dan

On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 12:59:08 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in
one and see what's left afterwards.

Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

Try taking a piece of aluminum sheet and see if you can start a fire
with it.

When you get frustrated, come on back and we can talk about why that
happened.


And then grab a piece of steel wool, and light a match to it - let us
know what happened.

On 4/18/2015 10:44 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 20:12:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...


I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!
They start around $26,000 and go north, fast.

They're already on the market, Richard. You can check out the actual
prices.

pass.

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 2:14:31 PM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On 4/18/2015 10:44 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 20:12:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...


I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!
They start around $26,000 and go north, fast.

They're already on the market, Richard. You can check out the actual
prices.

pass.

Good move.

Oxidation of Aluminum causes heat.
Martin

On 4/19/2015 1:28 PM, jon_banquer wrote:
On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 10:53:16 AM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:

I think you need to do a little further checking, especially regarding
the cause of fires from aluminum wiring -- since you apparently are an
electrician.


Apparently?

Why doesn't slow eddy just ask him?

Is this yet another example of slow eddy getting it wrong because he makes assumptions rather than having the guts to ask?

Don't drop aluminum foil into a beaker of HCL or for that much FeCl.
Either will cause explosions (steam) and extreme heat with light.

Martin

On 4/19/2015 2:22 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 10:54:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:


Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

I do not think that means very much. I did a search on " Flammability of water " and got 6,470,000 search results. Do you think that water is much more flammable than steel?

Aluminum powder will burn fairly easily, but if you use a oxy acet torch on aluminum , you just get blobs of melted aluminum. Steel on the other hand can be cut with a oxy acet torch.

Dan

On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 21:32:22 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Don't drop aluminum foil into a beaker of HCL or for that much FeCl.
Either will cause explosions (steam) and extreme heat with light.

Martin

Moral of that story: Don't soak your truck in hydrochloric acid. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 1:53:16 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in
one and see what's left afterwards.

Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

I think you need to do a little further checking, especially regarding
the cause of fires from aluminum wiring -- since you apparently are an
electrician.

In such a fire, the aluminum wire doesn't burn. It starts a fire in
the surrounding material through one of two causes: a high-resistance
overheating, caused by loosening of the connection (aluminum's thermal
expansion rate makes it unsuitable for use with conventional wiring
connections); or from arcing caused by "micro-fretting" of the
aluminum. If you're involved in electrical wiring for buildings, you
should know this.

The flammability of aluminum, contrary to popular mythology, is very
low. The flammability tests performed at atmospheric pressure, in air,
consistently show that it won't sustain a fire. The flammability tests
you're probably seeing are conducted in pure oxygen at pressures above
atmospheric.

Aluminum powder is combustible and explosive. Wrought or cast aluminum
is not. The British warship that burned in the Falkland Islands war,
the Sheffield, did not have an aluminum superstructure, contrary to
ill-informed media reports. It was steel. And it did not burn. Diesel
fuel is what burned.

The video of a Ford truck prototype burning, that someone posted here
yesterday, apparently do not show the aluminum burning. It shows the
vinyl "disguise" cover burning, and burning of the plastics and
probably some fuel, but the aluminum just melted into a heap.

So be careful about the ideas you're promoting about aluminum burning.

Aluminum is not the end of the world. Regardless of the purpose, there is simply less of a fire safety question with steel. Search engine inquiries show that.

If only you'd stop missing or diverting from the point that steel, copper and most other metals are in fact looking safer than aluminum (which was the original point).

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 1:53:16 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in
one and see what's left afterwards.

Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

I think you need to do a little further checking, especially
regarding the cause of fires from aluminum wiring -- since you apparently
are an electrician.

The poster said he was not licensed as an electrician. So that's not even an issue.

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 12:13:51 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 1:53:16 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in
one and see what's left afterwards.

Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

I think you need to do a little further checking, especially regarding
the cause of fires from aluminum wiring -- since you apparently are an
electrician.

In such a fire, the aluminum wire doesn't burn. It starts a fire in
the surrounding material through one of two causes: a high-resistance
overheating, caused by loosening of the connection (aluminum's thermal
expansion rate makes it unsuitable for use with conventional wiring
connections); or from arcing caused by "micro-fretting" of the
aluminum. If you're involved in electrical wiring for buildings, you
should know this.

The flammability of aluminum, contrary to popular mythology, is very
low. The flammability tests performed at atmospheric pressure, in air,
consistently show that it won't sustain a fire. The flammability tests
you're probably seeing are conducted in pure oxygen at pressures above
atmospheric.

Aluminum powder is combustible and explosive. Wrought or cast aluminum
is not. The British warship that burned in the Falkland Islands war,
the Sheffield, did not have an aluminum superstructure, contrary to
ill-informed media reports. It was steel. And it did not burn. Diesel
fuel is what burned.

The video of a Ford truck prototype burning, that someone posted here
yesterday, apparently do not show the aluminum burning. It shows the
vinyl "disguise" cover burning, and burning of the plastics and
probably some fuel, but the aluminum just melted into a heap.

So be careful about the ideas you're promoting about aluminum burning.

Aluminum is not the end of the world. Regardless of the purpose, there is simply less of a fire safety question with steel. Search engine inquiries show that.

If only you'd stop missing or diverting from the point that steel, copper and most other metals are in fact looking safer than aluminum (which was the original point).

Go look at your "search engine inquiries" and find us an example of
aluminum sheet, plate, wire, or casting burning in air.

You'll be looking for a long time.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 12:15:25 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 1:53:16 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in
one and see what's left afterwards.

Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

I think you need to do a little further checking, especially
regarding the cause of fires from aluminum wiring -- since you apparently
are an electrician.

The poster said he was not licensed as an electrician. So that's not even an issue.

He's mentioned wiring in his work several times in recent months, but
without further comment. So, licensed or not, he appears to be an
electrician of some sort.

--
Ed Huntress

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 12:51:50 PM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 12:15:25 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 1:53:16 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 16:31, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:42:50 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.
Look at all the dump trucks hauling gravel. LArge percentage are
aluminum boxes, and they stand up better than most steel boxes.

6061T6 or T653 is pretty tough stuff - and there are tougher alloya
apparently.
Remember that the stiffness and strength of a panel varies with the
*cube* of its thickness. An aluminum panel as strong as a steel panel
will still be much lighter than the steel panel. You can make the
aluminum panel a great deal stronger than the steel panel, and it is
still a lot lighter.

That's the whole principle behind replacing steel with aluminum. It's
not only lighter; it's also stiffer and stronger, in terms of plate
stiffness and strength. (Not to complicate this point, but the tensile
and compression strengths of aluminum alloys are nearly identical to
those of steel panels of equivalent weight. But we're talking here
about denting or bending a panel, which is where the cube rule
applies.)

Where it can get complicated is in things like dent resistance. This
can be a complex resolution of forces. When the aluminum panel is a
lot stiffer, that also means that the area surrounding a dent is
putting up a lot more resistance to being bent. So, instead of
oilcanning and bouncing back, as a thin steel panel might do, the same
blow to aluminum might cause a dent, because the surrounding aluminum
is resisting oilcanning and that can allow a concentration of the
denting force in one local spot.

A little thought about this makes it clear that you can't generalize
about the dent resistance of aluminum. It depends a lot on the shape
of the panel. That steel panel might resist oilcanning because it has
a curved shape; it might, therefore, dent more easily than an aluminum
panel. A completely flat steel panel, in contrast, might just spring
away, or "oilcan," when the same force is applied. But you'll notice
that there is more crowning of panels in vehicles today, which is done
to improve stiffness as high-strength steel panels keep getting
thinner. That's how they save weight with the high-strength steels
used in car bodies today. They have to recover the lost
stiffness by crowning and reinforcing the steel.

An aluminum truck can be stronger, stiffer, and lighter than a
steel one.
Now, I hate aluminum wire (versus copper wire) because of the increased fire factor.

I remember reading somewhere that "Aluminum fires are more tenacious", but compared to what, I don't know. I imagine the stuff can't be any safer than the steel that was used in car manufacturing back in the 1950's.

I guess we'll have to wait for the first serious fire in
one and see what's left afterwards.

Well, I hate to harp on Aluminum, but let see he The quote "Flammability of Aluminum" turns up 25,300 search results.
The quote "Flammability of Steel" turns up only 10 search results.

I think you need to do a little further checking, especially
regarding the cause of fires from aluminum wiring -- since you apparently
are an electrician.

The poster said he was not licensed as an electrician. So that's not even an issue.

He's mentioned wiring in his work several times in recent months, but
without further comment. So, licensed or not, he appears to be an
electrician of some sort.

--
Ed Huntress



Typical slow eddy bull****. slow eddy refuses to ask and would rather make his usual wild guesses.

slow eddy is not only a liar of epic proportions (think Mark Wieber) but he's also very lazy.

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 3:13:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Aluminum is not the end of the world. Regardless of the purpose, there is simply less of a fire safety question with steel. Search engine inquiries show that.

If only you'd stop missing or diverting from the point that steel, copper and most other metals are in fact looking safer than aluminum (which was the original point).

But Aluminum is safe enough for use in airplanes and trucks. Safer than most other metals as Titanium, Magnesium, Lithium, beryllium, sodium, potassium and Zinc.

Dan

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 14:33:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 3:13:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Aluminum is not the end of the world. Regardless of the purpose, there is simply less of a fire safety question with steel. Search engine inquiries show that.

If only you'd stop missing or diverting from the point that steel, copper and most other metals are in fact looking safer than aluminum (which was the original point).

But Aluminum is safe enough for use in airplanes and trucks. Safer than most other metals as Titanium, Magnesium, Lithium, beryllium, sodium, potassium and Zinc.

Dan

And hundreds of thousands of aluminum-bodied cars have been built
since the 1920s -- Land Rover, Jaguar, Audi, and dozens of specialty
makes, from Shelby to Ferrari, Lotus to Maserati.

Their aluminum bodywork does not burn.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 17:39:25 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 14:33:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 3:13:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Aluminum is not the end of the world. Regardless of the purpose, there is simply less of a fire safety question with steel. Search engine inquiries show that.

If only you'd stop missing or diverting from the point that steel, copper and most other metals are in fact looking safer than aluminum (which was the original point).

But Aluminum is safe enough for use in airplanes and trucks. Safer than most other metals as Titanium, Magnesium, Lithium, beryllium, sodium, potassium and Zinc.

Dan

And hundreds of thousands of aluminum-bodied cars have been built
since the 1920s -- Land Rover, Jaguar, Audi, and dozens of specialty
makes, from Shelby to Ferrari, Lotus to Maserati.

Their aluminum bodywork does not burn.

BUT! if one does not use a certain specific CAD program they might
burn :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 21 Apr 2015 07:13:04 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 17:39:25 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 14:33:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 3:13:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Aluminum is not the end of the world. Regardless of the purpose, there is simply less of a fire safety question with steel. Search engine inquiries show that.

If only you'd stop missing or diverting from the point that steel, copper and most other metals are in fact looking safer than aluminum (which was the original point).

But Aluminum is safe enough for use in airplanes and trucks. Safer than most other metals as Titanium, Magnesium, Lithium, beryllium, sodium, potassium and Zinc.

Dan

And hundreds of thousands of aluminum-bodied cars have been built
since the 1920s -- Land Rover, Jaguar, Audi, and dozens of specialty
makes, from Shelby to Ferrari, Lotus to Maserati.

Their aluminum bodywork does not burn.

BUT! if one does not use a certain specific CAD program they might
burn :-)

That's Ok. Just wait a week, and it will be a different CAD program...
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

That moral has an extension - keep any truck away from HCL.

We have tankers of HCL and other nasty stuff float through
town from time to time. The Railroad hauls them and some truckers.

Saw my first liquid Nitrogen - NOx truck here was used to it in San
Jose. Also saw a first Oxygen tanker. Both give me willies.

Oxygen if flowing on blacktop will detonate under your feet if you
run through a cloud of it flowing on the highway. Shatter your tires...

Fun stuff. Propane cooks and floats. LOX freezes/shatters/bleaches....
and when mixed with tar a dense hydro-carbon - it is fun city. If water
is in or under the road, sections (pothole making) well up and here
comes movement.

Not as bad as the RED trucks toting Hydrogen.

Martin

On 4/19/2015 9:40 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 21:32:22 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Don't drop aluminum foil into a beaker of HCL or for that much FeCl.
Either will cause explosions (steam) and extreme heat with light.

Martin

Moral of that story: Don't soak your truck in hydrochloric acid. d8-)

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 5:24:00 PM UTC-7, slow eddy wrote:

That's Ok. Just wait a week, and it will be a different CAD program...
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

The only CAD program slow eddy can use is Rhino and he's not very good at it.

slow eddy is still stuck in the Cadkey days.