I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's
aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

Did they tell you what the alloy is?
-jsw

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 20:27:55 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's
aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

Did they tell you what the alloy is?
-jsw


Yes. It is a story I will write for the August or, more likely, the
September issue of Fab Shop.

There are four of them. None is a standard Aluminum Association alloy
designation. The way Ford handled it is brilliant. GM, Honda, Toyota
and others rose to compliment the Ford matreials engineer to designed
the system.

It's built "backwards" from the scrap stream and the real behaviors of
aluminum alloys. Expect the other major automakers to adopt it.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 20:27:55 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's
aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress
Did they tell you what the alloy is?
-jsw


Yes. It is a story I will write for the August or, more likely, the
September issue of Fab Shop.

There are four of them. None is a standard Aluminum Association alloy
designation. The way Ford handled it is brilliant. GM, Honda, Toyota
and others rose to compliment the Ford matreials engineer to designed
the system.

It's built "backwards" from the scrap stream and the real behaviors of
aluminum alloys. Expect the other major automakers to adopt it.


So what your saying is Ford starts as scrap and ends as scrap.... :-)


--
Steve W.

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 22:02:22 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 20:27:55 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's
aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress
Did they tell you what the alloy is?
-jsw


Yes. It is a story I will write for the August or, more likely, the
September issue of Fab Shop.

There are four of them. None is a standard Aluminum Association alloy
designation. The way Ford handled it is brilliant. GM, Honda, Toyota
and others rose to compliment the Ford matreials engineer to designed
the system.

It's built "backwards" from the scrap stream and the real behaviors of
aluminum alloys. Expect the other major automakers to adopt it.


So what your saying is Ford starts as scrap and ends as scrap.... :-)
I'm told it is "close to 6061" - a heat treatable weldable high
strength alloy.

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 22:12:20 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 22:02:22 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 20:27:55 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's
aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress
Did they tell you what the alloy is?
-jsw


Yes. It is a story I will write for the August or, more likely, the
September issue of Fab Shop.

There are four of them. None is a standard Aluminum Association alloy
designation. The way Ford handled it is brilliant. GM, Honda, Toyota
and others rose to compliment the Ford matreials engineer to designed
the system.

It's built "backwards" from the scrap stream and the real behaviors of
aluminum alloys. Expect the other major automakers to adopt it.


So what your saying is Ford starts as scrap and ends as scrap.... :-)
I'm told it is "close to 6061" - a heat treatable weldable high
strength alloy.

The four alloys are defined in ways that give them specific
properties, rather than specific secondary alloy constituents. The
primary constituents establish the performance parameters, and they
are defined in a way that allows the secondary melters to "up-alloy"
the scrap in the most efficient way, while staying within the
performance catagories. They have four different scrap streams to make
this happen.

The system makes sense when you see it in graphical form. It allows
very tight control of the alloys while using 1/3 secondary (remelt)
material. As the system is put into wider use, the percentage of
secondary material will increase and still stay within the designed
parameters. Without that, aluminum is going to be too expensive to get
very far in car bodies and chassis.

There isn't a lot of welding on the aluminum body of the F-150. There
is spot welding and some friction welding, but a lot of it is
weld-bond: welding through adhesive. There also are continuous laser
welds around the door frames.

Overall, it's much stiffer than earlier aluminum chassis/body
structures and it outperforms them in other ways. The
joining/assembly-fastening is very complex. On top of that, the body
is designed with "break points" that allow easy disassembly for
repairs.

There was a new Cadillac chassis on display at the conference. That
thing has diecast and extruded aluminum structures all over the place.
The diecastings used for the shock towers are amazing. I've never seen
anything like them. The result is a huge consolidation of parts --
often 10 to 1, throughout these new structures.

--
Ed Huntress

wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 22:02:22 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 20:27:55 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's
aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress
Did they tell you what the alloy is?
-jsw

Yes. It is a story I will write for the August or, more likely, the
September issue of Fab Shop.

There are four of them. None is a standard Aluminum Association alloy
designation. The way Ford handled it is brilliant. GM, Honda, Toyota
and others rose to compliment the Ford matreials engineer to designed
the system.

It's built "backwards" from the scrap stream and the real behaviors of
aluminum alloys. Expect the other major automakers to adopt it.

So what your saying is Ford starts as scrap and ends as scrap.... :-)
I'm told it is "close to 6061" - a heat treatable weldable high
strength alloy.

It will be interesting when they start getting body damage. 99% of the
repairs will be full panel replacement, but the common bed rail dings
and minor dents that can be taken out with paint less dent tools will be
fun.

Adhesive bonded panels are not bad but I'm not sure what they will do
with the welded seams. Some are laser welded at the factory. I'm
thinking they may allow TIG like a few other aluminum repair certs do
but I haven't looked into it very hard. I really don't plan on getting
certified to repair them.... BTDT, wastes a LOT of money. Especially
when the companies spec different equipment to do the same job... For a
while Ford and GM had different specs on spot welds, The weld itself was
the same in the end but they wanted you to use a specific brand of
welder to make the weld. Ford liked the Miller units and GM wanted Lenco.



--
Steve W.

11 ton truck toting how much ? maybe a ton or two.
Maybe 5. How packed is it and how much of it is air.

Might be high in air just to get the stuff moving.
I doubt it is chipped into billets.

Martin

On 4/16/2015 7:27 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's
aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

Did they tell you what the alloy is?
-jsw

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 23:05:59 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

11 ton truck toting how much ?

11-ton capacity. It was stated as 11 tons of scrap every 20 minutes.

maybe a ton or two.

Nope.

Maybe 5. How packed is it and how much of it is air.

Might be high in air just to get the stuff moving.
I doubt it is chipped into billets.

Martin

On 4/16/2015 7:27 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's
aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

Did they tell you what the alloy is?
-jsw

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:52:00 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest one,
at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an 11-ton-capacity
truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes. The trucks are
lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate isn't
three-shifts every day, but still...

And did that 11-ton truck have an overhead cam engine? Did it? Huh? DID
IT? Or did it have a PUSHROD engine because the designers knew it was
superior for the task of powering a big, manly truck?

(Sorry. Had to. Some passing stupidity wave, I think.)

--
www.wescottdesign.com

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 00:05:27 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:52:00 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest one,
at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an 11-ton-capacity
truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes. The trucks are
lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate isn't
three-shifts every day, but still...

And did that 11-ton truck have an overhead cam engine? Did it? Huh? DID
IT? Or did it have a PUSHROD engine because the designers knew it was
superior for the task of powering a big, manly truck?

(Sorry. Had to. Some passing stupidity wave, I think.)

g I don't know what kind of engine is in the scrap truck. However,
I'll get a chance to look them over in a month or two and I'll report
back.

--
Ed Huntress

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:


Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

The Wall Street Journal had an article on Jan 8th about the shift to Aluminum. According to the article in ten years 18% of all vedicles made in the U.S. will have aluminum bodies. It said there were four companies that could supply the aluminum sheet. Alcoa, Novells, Logan Aluminum, and Constellium. Did you find out who is supplying Ford? I would expect more than one company is making the aluminum.

Dan

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:11:20 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:


Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

The Wall Street Journal had an article on Jan 8th about the shift to Aluminum. According to the article in ten years 18% of all vedicles made in the U.S. will have aluminum bodies. It said there were four companies that could supply the aluminum sheet. Alcoa, Novells, Logan Aluminum, and Constellium. Did you find out who is supplying Ford? I would expect more than one company is making the aluminum.

Dan

Alcoa and Novelis.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:11:20 -0700, wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:


Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate isn't
three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

The Wall Street Journal had an article on Jan 8th about the shift to
Aluminum. According to the article in ten years 18% of all vedicles
made in the U.S. will have aluminum bodies.

And controlled fusion will be practical. Wind power for everyone, too, so
we'll have a choice. Or we'll be transitioned to the "hydrogen
economy" (with molecular hydrogen appearing magically, because of course
it doesn't have to be _made_ from _water_ using way more energy than you
get out of it later).

And we won't be buying cars from the major manufacturers any more, because
they'll be 3D printed locally from 100% recycled aluminum cans and plastic
soda bottles.

Damn, but it's a good thing I'm never cynical nor sarcastic!

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 11:40:18 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:11:20 -0700, wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:


Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate isn't
three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

The Wall Street Journal had an article on Jan 8th about the shift to
Aluminum. According to the article in ten years 18% of all vedicles
made in the U.S. will have aluminum bodies.

And controlled fusion will be practical. Wind power for everyone, too, so
we'll have a choice. Or we'll be transitioned to the "hydrogen
economy" (with molecular hydrogen appearing magically, because of course
it doesn't have to be _made_ from _water_ using way more energy than you
get out of it later).

And we won't be buying cars from the major manufacturers any more, because
they'll be 3D printed locally from 100% recycled aluminum cans and plastic
soda bottles.

Damn, but it's a good thing I'm never cynical nor sarcastic!

g It appears the WSJ is right. Every major Western and Japanese
manufacturer is in the process of developing, or is nearly ready to
produce, high-aluminum-content cars. Ford is looking into what they
can do with magnesium.

In the very short run, there appears to be a lot of development space
left for advanced high-strength steels. (AHSS). And the more
sophisticated vehicles are using a fair amount of boron steel in
hot-stamping, which achieves over 200,000 psi yield. Door pillars and
crush areas are major applications for hot-stamped steel.

--
Ed Huntress

On 18/04/15 02:46, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 11:40:18 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:11:20 -0700, wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:


Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate isn't
three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress
The Wall Street Journal had an article on Jan 8th about the shift to
Aluminum. According to the article in ten years 18% of all vedicles
made in the U.S. will have aluminum bodies.
And controlled fusion will be practical. Wind power for everyone, too, so
we'll have a choice. Or we'll be transitioned to the "hydrogen
economy" (with molecular hydrogen appearing magically, because of course
it doesn't have to be _made_ from _water_ using way more energy than you
get out of it later).

And we won't be buying cars from the major manufacturers any more, because
they'll be 3D printed locally from 100% recycled aluminum cans and plastic
soda bottles.

Damn, but it's a good thing I'm never cynical nor sarcastic!
g It appears the WSJ is right. Every major Western and Japanese
manufacturer is in the process of developing, or is nearly ready to
produce, high-aluminum-content cars. Ford is looking into what they
can do with magnesium.

The Audi A8 has been around for a couple of decades now. I wonder how
the older ones fair these days and if they suffer from any problems with
the use of aluminium structurally.


In the very short run, there appears to be a lot of development space
left for advanced high-strength steels. (AHSS). And the more
sophisticated vehicles are using a fair amount of boron steel in
hot-stamping, which achieves over 200,000 psi yield. Door pillars and
crush areas are major applications for hot-stamped steel.

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:20:58 +0100, David Billington
wrote:

On 18/04/15 02:46, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 11:40:18 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:11:20 -0700, wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:


Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate isn't
three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress
The Wall Street Journal had an article on Jan 8th about the shift to
Aluminum. According to the article in ten years 18% of all vedicles
made in the U.S. will have aluminum bodies.
And controlled fusion will be practical. Wind power for everyone, too, so
we'll have a choice. Or we'll be transitioned to the "hydrogen
economy" (with molecular hydrogen appearing magically, because of course
it doesn't have to be _made_ from _water_ using way more energy than you
get out of it later).

And we won't be buying cars from the major manufacturers any more, because
they'll be 3D printed locally from 100% recycled aluminum cans and plastic
soda bottles.

Damn, but it's a good thing I'm never cynical nor sarcastic!
g It appears the WSJ is right. Every major Western and Japanese
manufacturer is in the process of developing, or is nearly ready to
produce, high-aluminum-content cars. Ford is looking into what they
can do with magnesium.

The Audi A8 has been around for a couple of decades now. I wonder how
the older ones fair these days and if they suffer from any problems with
the use of aluminium structurally.

A lot of the F-150's I see on the road aren't hauling anything in the
bed. But I wonder how they'll hold up for lawn service, plumbers,
farmers, etc. with a lot of stuff banging around in the back all the
time. I'm not a pickup or Ford guy, so don't really care that much.
Time will tell.


In the very short run, there appears to be a lot of development space
left for advanced high-strength steels. (AHSS). And the more
sophisticated vehicles are using a fair amount of boron steel in
hot-stamping, which achieves over 200,000 psi yield. Door pillars and
crush areas are major applications for hot-stamped steel.

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 10:20:58 +0100, David Billington
wrote:

On 18/04/15 02:46, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 11:40:18 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:11:20 -0700, wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:


Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate isn't
three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress
The Wall Street Journal had an article on Jan 8th about the shift to
Aluminum. According to the article in ten years 18% of all vedicles
made in the U.S. will have aluminum bodies.
And controlled fusion will be practical. Wind power for everyone, too, so
we'll have a choice. Or we'll be transitioned to the "hydrogen
economy" (with molecular hydrogen appearing magically, because of course
it doesn't have to be _made_ from _water_ using way more energy than you
get out of it later).

And we won't be buying cars from the major manufacturers any more, because
they'll be 3D printed locally from 100% recycled aluminum cans and plastic
soda bottles.

Damn, but it's a good thing I'm never cynical nor sarcastic!
g It appears the WSJ is right. Every major Western and Japanese
manufacturer is in the process of developing, or is nearly ready to
produce, high-aluminum-content cars. Ford is looking into what they
can do with magnesium.

The Audi A8 has been around for a couple of decades now. I wonder how
the older ones fair these days and if they suffer from any problems with
the use of aluminium structurally.

I don't know. But, without them saying anything negative about it, it
was clear that the engineers at that conference consider the A8 to be
a "first generation" effort with aluminum, not practical for a
high-production car.

--
Ed Huntress



In the very short run, there appears to be a lot of development space
left for advanced high-strength steels. (AHSS). And the more
sophisticated vehicles are using a fair amount of boron steel in
hot-stamping, which achieves over 200,000 psi yield. Door pillars and
crush areas are major applications for hot-stamped steel.

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 5:21:01 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
On 18/04/15 02:46, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 11:40:18 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 05:11:20 -0700, wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:


Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate isn't
three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress
The Wall Street Journal had an article on Jan 8th about the shift to
Aluminum. According to the article in ten years 18% of all vedicles
made in the U.S. will have aluminum bodies.
And controlled fusion will be practical. Wind power for everyone, too, so
we'll have a choice. Or we'll be transitioned to the "hydrogen
economy" (with molecular hydrogen appearing magically, because of course
it doesn't have to be _made_ from _water_ using way more energy than you
get out of it later).

And we won't be buying cars from the major manufacturers any more, because
they'll be 3D printed locally from 100% recycled aluminum cans and plastic
soda bottles.

Damn, but it's a good thing I'm never cynical nor sarcastic!
g It appears the WSJ is right. Every major Western and Japanese
manufacturer is in the process of developing, or is nearly ready to
produce, high-aluminum-content cars. Ford is looking into what they
can do with magnesium.

The Audi A8 has been around for a couple of decades now. I wonder how
the older ones fair these days and if they suffer from any problems
with the use of aluminium structurally.

Its good that you wonder that. I am no car person, believe me. I don't know about their aluminum use before 2015. But, I keep hearing that Toyotas are the ones that have rarely needed any kind of repair on average. I don't think Volkswagon and Audi are known for that reputation.

Also, SUV's of many types rarely need repair, too. "though I hate defending SUV's).

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

Did you get a handle on what percentage of a sheet becomes scrap? It would be interesting (from a musing standpoint, if not a metallurgical or economic one) to know how many times a given piece of aluminum has been through the punch/scrap/remelt process before it actually becomes part of a truck.

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:17:37 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...

--
Ed Huntress

Did you get a handle on what percentage of a sheet becomes scrap? It would be interesting (from a musing standpoint, if not a metallurgical or economic one) to know how many times a given piece of aluminum has been through the punch/scrap/remelt process before it actually becomes part of a truck.

Not yet. I'll be spending more time with them to find out things like
that.

If grain direction doesn't matter, a yield of 70% from a sheet is
pretty reasonable. If grain direction does matter, it will be somewhat
lower, depending on how the parts nest on the sheet.

--
Ed Huntress

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...



I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!

"Richard" wrote in message
...
On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four
stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20
minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers
have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's
aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...



I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these
things are going to cost!

They start at $25,000.

-jsw

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 20:12:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...



I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!

They start around $26,000 and go north, fast.

They're already on the market, Richard. You can check out the actual
prices.

--
Ed Huntress

On 4/18/2015 10:44 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 20:12:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...


I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!
They start around $26,000 and go north, fast.

They're already on the market, Richard. You can check out the actual
prices.

pass.

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 2:14:31 PM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On 4/18/2015 10:44 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 20:12:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...


I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!
They start around $26,000 and go north, fast.

They're already on the market, Richard. You can check out the actual
prices.

pass.

Good move.

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 2:14:31 PM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On 4/18/2015 10:44 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 20:12:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...


I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!
They start around $26,000 and go north, fast.

They're already on the market, Richard. You can check out the actual
prices.

pass.

Are you sure you don't want to experience these types of problems :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwKKBAc5OPw

On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 1:23:30 PM UTC-4, jon_banquer wrote:
On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 2:14:31 PM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On 4/18/2015 10:44 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 20:12:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes..
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...


I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!
They start around $26,000 and go north, fast.

They're already on the market, Richard. You can check out
the actual prices.

pass.

Are you sure you don't want to experience these types of
problems :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwKKBAc5OPw

Jon (and everyone else here), Aluminum isn't bad. Its just that its tough to imagine a customer pondering trusting a largely aluminum car to carry his young family around. But then again, I guess if the engineers and their salesmen can come-up with such a good sales pitch (whatever that may be), then hey !!

Ed's right.

On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 1:23:30 PM UTC-4, jon_banquer wrote:
On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 2:14:31 PM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On 4/18/2015 10:44 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 20:12:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 4/16/2015 6:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works, and the world's aluminum
producers have been building new plants just to deal with it.

Ford will make around 600,000 F-150s this year, so the scrap rate
isn't three-shifts every day, but still...


I don't mean to be a killjoy here, but I can't imagine what these things
are going to cost!
They start around $26,000 and go north, fast.

They're already on the market, Richard. You can check out the actual
prices.

pass.

Are you sure you don't want to experience these types of problems :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwKKBAc5OPw

I don't know. With aluminum car fires, everything is saying that it all melts away. Where as the steel is still there.

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works ...

"Chevys ads show the bed of the Ford F-150 cracking when heavy or sharp objects are dropped into it, while the [Chevy] Silverado ends up with just a few dents, scratches and, in one case, pinholes. In one video, a Chevy engineer drops a large toolbox into the bed of each truck at such an angle that it dents in the Silverado and puts a hole in the bed of the Ford. The campaign is big, too, airing online, on television during major sporting events and at 2,400 movie theaters"

-- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...uminum-pickups

('GM Airs Attack Ads That Poke Holes in Fords Aluminum Pickups' by David Welch June 8, 2016 €” 3:30 PM EDT Bloomberg )

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:34:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works ...

"Chevy’s ads show the bed of the Ford F-150 cracking when heavy or sharp objects are dropped into it, while the [Chevy] Silverado ends up with just a few dents, scratches and, in one case, pinholes. In one video, a Chevy engineer drops a large toolbox into the bed of each truck at such an angle that it dents in the Silverado and puts a hole in the bed of the Ford. The campaign is big, too, airing online, on television during major sporting events and at 2,400 movie theaters"

-- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...uminum-pickups

('GM Airs Attack Ads That Poke Holes in Ford’s Aluminum Pickups' by David Welch June 8, 2016 — 3:30 PM EDT Bloomberg )

I saw the ad. It's a little bit phony, but it does point out that the
stiffness of aluminum can work against it on a truck bed. The steel is
thin, so it bends and dents. The aluminum resists bending (it's a lot
thicker) and winds up puncturing locally if you hit it with something
sharp, becase it doesn't bend and distribute the force like the steel.

Ford may have to change the way they make that bed, but reports from
the field haven't noted many problems. Meantime, they were selling
like crazy until the recent gas-price increases, in which all SUV and
truck sales are down.

I'm going to be visiting their engineers later this year. I'm
interested in what they have to say about it.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:53:56 -0400
Ed Huntress wrote:

snip
I saw the ad. It's a little bit phony, but it does point out that the
stiffness of aluminum can work against it on a truck bed. The steel is
thin, so it bends and dents. The aluminum resists bending (it's a lot
thicker) and winds up puncturing locally if you hit it with something
sharp, becase it doesn't bend and distribute the force like the steel.
snip

Honda jumped in too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayOhO3D_90Y

They didn't fool with the toolbox but it looked like their bed bested
both Chevy and Ford with the blocks...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:06:34 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:53:56 -0400
Ed Huntress wrote:

snip
I saw the ad. It's a little bit phony, but it does point out that the
stiffness of aluminum can work against it on a truck bed. The steel is
thin, so it bends and dents. The aluminum resists bending (it's a lot
thicker) and winds up puncturing locally if you hit it with something
sharp, becase it doesn't bend and distribute the force like the steel.
snip

Honda jumped in too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayOhO3D_90Y

They didn't fool with the toolbox but it looked like their bed bested
both Chevy and Ford with the blocks...

Ha! I wonder what the sheet metal looks like under that composite bed
liner. You can't tell.

Maybe this will be the new test for pickup trucks -- how many masonry
blocks you can dump into them with a front-end loader without doing
damage.

They have to do something. Ford was pounding them in the marketplace
before the gas-price incerases. They may still be; I haven't looked at
comparative sales figures for a couple of months.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:34:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works ...

"Chevy’s ads show the bed of the Ford F-150 cracking when heavy or sharp objects are dropped into it, while the [Chevy] Silverado ends up with just a few dents, scratches and, in one case, pinholes. In one video, a Chevy engineer drops a large toolbox into the bed of each truck at such an angle that it dents in the Silverado and puts a hole in the bed of the Ford. The campaign is big, too, airing online, on television during major sporting events and at 2,400 movie theaters"

-- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...uminum-pickups

('GM Airs Attack Ads That Poke Holes in Ford’s Aluminum Pickups' by David Welch June 8, 2016 — 3:30 PM EDT Bloomberg )
Yet they've been usung aluminum dump boxes almost exclusively now for
how many years? If Ford used something like 6061T6 or T651 for the bed
floors they'd be stronger than the Chebbie.

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:14:04 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:34:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works ...

"Chevy’s ads show the bed of the Ford F-150 cracking when heavy or sharp objects are dropped into it, while the [Chevy] Silverado ends up with just a few dents, scratches and, in one case, pinholes. In one video, a Chevy engineer drops a large toolbox into the bed of each truck at such an angle that it dents in the Silverado and puts a hole in the bed of the Ford. The campaign is big, too, airing online, on television during major sporting events and at 2,400 movie theaters"

-- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...uminum-pickups

('GM Airs Attack Ads That Poke Holes in Ford’s Aluminum Pickups' by David Welch June 8, 2016 — 3:30 PM EDT Bloomberg )
Yet they've been usung aluminum dump boxes almost exclusively now for
how many years? If Ford used something like 6061T6 or T651 for the bed
floors they'd be stronger than the Chebbie.

They do. It's a proprietary alloy, but it's close to high-temper 6061.

The issue actually is kind of complicated. "Stronger" in what way? The
aluminum resists being sprung or bent better than the thinner steel
used in other makes.

But that stiffness tends to localize any load, and minimizing springy
displacement means that the specific load (the load per square inch,
for example) winds up being higher, which can exceed the yield point
more easily and make a permanent bend or dent. Or even tear it..

So the aluminum is stronger is some ways, but not in others. Chevy
chose to impose those loads in a way that makes them look better. If
you drop a pallet of bricks in there, I'll bet that the aluminum Ford
can handle more bricks before the bed buckles.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:14:04 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:34:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four
stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the
biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20
minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers
have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works ...

"Chevy's ads show the bed of the Ford F-150 cracking when heavy or
sharp objects are dropped into it, while the [Chevy] Silverado ends
up with just a few dents, scratches and, in one case, pinholes. In
one video, a Chevy engineer drops a large toolbox into the bed of
each truck at such an angle that it dents in the Silverado and puts
a hole in the bed of the Ford. The campaign is big, too, airing
online, on television during major sporting events and at 2,400
movie theaters"

--
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...uminum-pickups

('GM Airs Attack Ads That Poke Holes in Ford's Aluminum Pickups' by
David Welch June 8, 2016 - 3:30 PM EDT Bloomberg )
Yet they've been usung aluminum dump boxes almost exclusively now
for
how many years? If Ford used something like 6061T6 or T651 for the
bed
floors they'd be stronger than the Chebbie.

They do. It's a proprietary alloy, but it's close to high-temper
6061.

The issue actually is kind of complicated. "Stronger" in what way?
The
aluminum resists being sprung or bent better than the thinner steel
used in other makes.

But that stiffness tends to localize any load, and minimizing
springy
displacement means that the specific load (the load per square inch,
for example) winds up being higher, which can exceed the yield point
more easily and make a permanent bend or dent. Or even tear it..

So the aluminum is stronger is some ways, but not in others. Chevy
chose to impose those loads in a way that makes them look better. If
you drop a pallet of bricks in there, I'll bet that the aluminum
Ford
can handle more bricks before the bed buckles.

--
Ed Huntress

How long before this degenerates into a demolition derby between robot
battlebot trucks?

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:54:34 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:14:04 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:34:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good
one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four
stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the
biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20
minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers
have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works ...

"Chevy's ads show the bed of the Ford F-150 cracking when heavy or
sharp objects are dropped into it, while the [Chevy] Silverado ends
up with just a few dents, scratches and, in one case, pinholes. In
one video, a Chevy engineer drops a large toolbox into the bed of
each truck at such an angle that it dents in the Silverado and puts
a hole in the bed of the Ford. The campaign is big, too, airing
online, on television during major sporting events and at 2,400
movie theaters"

--
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...uminum-pickups

('GM Airs Attack Ads That Poke Holes in Ford's Aluminum Pickups' by
David Welch June 8, 2016 - 3:30 PM EDT Bloomberg )
Yet they've been usung aluminum dump boxes almost exclusively now
for
how many years? If Ford used something like 6061T6 or T651 for the
bed
floors they'd be stronger than the Chebbie.

They do. It's a proprietary alloy, but it's close to high-temper
6061.

The issue actually is kind of complicated. "Stronger" in what way?
The
aluminum resists being sprung or bent better than the thinner steel
used in other makes.

But that stiffness tends to localize any load, and minimizing
springy
displacement means that the specific load (the load per square inch,
for example) winds up being higher, which can exceed the yield point
more easily and make a permanent bend or dent. Or even tear it..

So the aluminum is stronger is some ways, but not in others. Chevy
chose to impose those loads in a way that makes them look better. If
you drop a pallet of bricks in there, I'll bet that the aluminum
Ford
can handle more bricks before the bed buckles.

--
Ed Huntress

How long before this degenerates into a demolition derby between robot
battlebot trucks?

Don't give them any ideas. Ford and Chevy already are battling at
LeMans. g

Did you see that race, BTW? The new Ford GTs looked great -- beat the
Corvettes and the Ferraris. And they were using the stock-block
EcoBoost 3.5 liter engine.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:42:41 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:14:04 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:34:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works ...

"Chevy’s ads show the bed of the Ford F-150 cracking when heavy or sharp objects are dropped into it, while the [Chevy] Silverado ends up with just a few dents, scratches and, in one case, pinholes. In one video, a Chevy engineer drops a large toolbox into the bed of each truck at such an angle that it dents in the Silverado and puts a hole in the bed of the Ford. The campaign is big, too, airing online, on television during major sporting events and at 2,400 movie theaters"

-- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...uminum-pickups

('GM Airs Attack Ads That Poke Holes in Ford’s Aluminum Pickups' by David Welch June 8, 2016 — 3:30 PM EDT Bloomberg )
Yet they've been usung aluminum dump boxes almost exclusively now for
how many years? If Ford used something like 6061T6 or T651 for the bed
floors they'd be stronger than the Chebbie.

They do. It's a proprietary alloy, but it's close to high-temper 6061.

The issue actually is kind of complicated. "Stronger" in what way? The
aluminum resists being sprung or bent better than the thinner steel
used in other makes.

But that stiffness tends to localize any load, and minimizing springy
displacement means that the specific load (the load per square inch,
for example) winds up being higher, which can exceed the yield point
more easily and make a permanent bend or dent. Or even tear it..

So the aluminum is stronger is some ways, but not in others. Chevy
chose to impose those loads in a way that makes them look better. If
you drop a pallet of bricks in there, I'll bet that the aluminum Ford
can handle more bricks before the bed buckles.
The 6061T6 skid plates we had on the old 510 rallye car took one heck
of a beating withour denting OR pucturing. (The 510 was the car my
brother navigated with a different driver before we teamed up with the
S&S R12)

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:14:04 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:34:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works ...

"Chevy’s ads show the bed of the Ford F-150 cracking when heavy or sharp objects are dropped into it, while the [Chevy] Silverado ends up with just a few dents, scratches and, in one case, pinholes. In one video, a Chevy engineer drops a large toolbox into the bed of each truck at such an angle that it dents in the Silverado and puts a hole in the bed of the Ford. The campaign is big, too, airing online, on television during major sporting events and at 2,400 movie theaters"

-- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...uminum-pickups

('GM Airs Attack Ads That Poke Holes in Ford’s Aluminum Pickups' by David Welch June 8, 2016 — 3:30 PM EDT Bloomberg )
Yet they've been usung aluminum dump boxes almost exclusively now for
how many years? If Ford used something like 6061T6 or T651 for the bed
floors they'd be stronger than the Chebbie.

I dont think its the fact that they are using aluminum thats the
issue. I believe that they are using aluminum thats TOO THIN.


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Gunner Asch on Sat, 25 Jun 2016 14:03:39 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:14:04 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:34:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:52:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
I just got back from an engineering conference in Detroit on
"lightweighting" cars and trucks, which was an exceptionally good one,
but one mundane fact set me back in my chair. Ford has four stamping
plants making body parts for the new aluminum F-150. At the biggest
one, at the old Rouge plant, their stamping line fills an
11-ton-capacity truck with aluminum stamping scrap every 20 minutes.
The trucks are lined up to haul it back to the mills.

That's a lot of aluminum. All of the US and European car makers have
high-quantity aluminum vehicles in the works ...

"Chevy’s ads show the bed of the Ford F-150 cracking when heavy or sharp objects are dropped into it, while the [Chevy] Silverado ends up with just a few dents, scratches and, in one case, pinholes. In one video, a Chevy engineer drops a large toolbox into the bed of each truck at such an angle that it dents in the Silverado and puts a hole in the bed of the Ford. The campaign is big, too, airing online, on television during major sporting events and at 2,400 movie theaters"

-- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...uminum-pickups

('GM Airs Attack Ads That Poke Holes in Ford’s Aluminum Pickups' by David Welch June 8, 2016 — 3:30 PM EDT Bloomberg )
Yet they've been usung aluminum dump boxes almost exclusively now for
how many years? If Ford used something like 6061T6 or T651 for the bed
floors they'd be stronger than the Chebbie.

I dont think its the fact that they are using aluminum thats the
issue. I believe that they are using aluminum thats TOO THIN.

And GM is ... shall we say "abusing" the Fords? Who drops heavy
or sharp object as shown - in the real world?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."