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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
Long post follows.....
I've got a problem with condensation in my workshop I can't understand. I'm getting condensation on the bottom side of the metal beam above the doorway. It extends about 1 foot to the left of the door. The other roof beams stay dry, it only appears to condense above the door and a little to each side of the door. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tion%20(1).JPG https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tion%20(2).JPG Initially I thought it was roof leakage so I lifted the cladding and replaced the metal flashing angle, sealing both sides well with a copious amount of silicone sealant. I found the condensation was still occurring and thought that it may be damp air drawn into the shed at night via the gap between the door and the door frame. I figured the moisture was condensing on the cool metal beam (the cladding is screwed to the top side of this beam) so I purchased some neat fitting self adhesive rubber seal. I fitted this across the top and down the sides of the door. The bottom of the door has a wiper type storm seal. Despite this on rainless nights / days I'm still getting condensation drips forming on the metal beam. Where is it coming from?????? What I know: 1) Clay brick walls. 2) Steel beams 4" x 2". 3) Flat sheet steel roof cladding. 4) Temperature range - days typically 70F, nights may go as low as 40F 5) Roof lined with 2" polystyrene sheets spaced 1" from roof cladding. 6) Door / door frame gap sealed. 7) I have a "whirly bird" wind driven ventilator at the high end of the roof opposite the door (12 feet away). 8) I added a solar panel driven 120mm 12V fan to pump outside into the shed in an attempt to keep it dry - its made no difference in 2 weeks of running. 9) Weather location - Perth Western Australia. Ideas ??? Cheers. |
#2
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
Shed_Fiddler fired this volley in
. au: Ideas ??? Well, start with basics. The beam itself is becoming cooler than the dewpoint of the air. Since that beam is close to a door, one can construe that it's close to a wall... and perhaps _itself_ not insulated from the outside air temperature at night. If I were looking for the problem, I'd be looking for a thermal path to that beam from outside. Perhaps the cladding is screwed right to the beam? Perhaps the eaves are venting up directly across the top of that beam (between roof and insulation sheets), and once the air has removed the heat from that beam, it's warm enough and diffuse enough not to cool other beams it passes on the way to the peak? Or perhaps once having passed that beam, the air is mixed with other inside air, and thus is not so cool anymore. There are all sorts of ways to imagine that happening, but the simple fact is that the one beam is getting cooled to below the dew point, while the others are not. LLoyd |
#3
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
On 8/7/2014 7:21 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Shed_Fiddler fired this volley in . au: Ideas ??? Well, start with basics. The beam itself is becoming cooler than the dewpoint of the air. Since that beam is close to a door, one can construe that it's close to a wall... and perhaps _itself_ not insulated from the outside air temperature at night. If I were looking for the problem, I'd be looking for a thermal path to that beam from outside. Perhaps the cladding is screwed right to the beam? Perhaps the eaves are venting up directly across the top of that beam (between roof and insulation sheets), and once the air has removed the heat from that beam, it's warm enough and diffuse enough not to cool other beams it passes on the way to the peak? Or perhaps once having passed that beam, the air is mixed with other inside air, and thus is not so cool anymore. There are all sorts of ways to imagine that happening, but the simple fact is that the one beam is getting cooled to below the dew point, while the others are not. LLoyd Spray an inch or two of foam insulation over the beam. Air can't get to the beam to condense, and the foam will stay warm enough so no water will condense on it. I don't know if you can do that with the little foam bottles you buy at Lowes, you need it to come out in a spray so it seals all inflow of air to the beam. Mikek |
#4
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
amdx fired this volley in news:lrvt6o$hop$1@dont-
email.me: I don't know if you can do that with the little foam bottles you buy at Lowes, you need it to come out in a spray so it seals all inflow of air to the beam. There are foam ball-filled paints that offer the same feature in a rolled-on application. One could even 'dope up' a can of latex paint with a beanbag full of polybeads, and just spatula the stuff on. In fact, I've seen and once used a pre-mix version of that, though I cannot remember where I got it. It's the consistency of spackle, and about 90% polybeads. Or you could 'baggie' the beam, and fill it with some low-expansion (door and window) foam. Lloyd |
#5
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
On 8/7/2014 8:06 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
amdx fired this volley in news:lrvt6o$hop$1@dont- email.me: I don't know if you can do that with the little foam bottles you buy at Lowes, you need it to come out in a spray so it seals all inflow of air to the beam. There are foam ball-filled paints that offer the same feature in a rolled-on application. One could even 'dope up' a can of latex paint with a beanbag full of polybeads, and just spatula the stuff on. In fact, I've seen and once used a pre-mix version of that, though I cannot remember where I got it. It's the consistency of spackle, and about 90% polybeads. Or you could 'baggie' the beam, and fill it with some low-expansion (door and window) foam. Lloyd That's what I was trying to convey, the door and window foam. I wonder how it would come out of you pinched or restricted the tube on one of the door and window foam cans? Could you get a spray? Mikek |
#6
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
amdx fired this volley in news:lrvtv1$nfg$1@dont-
email.me: That's what I was trying to convey, the door and window foam. I wonder how it would come out of you pinched or restricted the tube on one of the door and window foam cans? Could you get a spray? No, not a useful one. 'Boxing' the beam with some light framing, then filling the void end-to-end would be the easiest way with that material. You could even use a piece of plastic gutter material as the trough. All that said, it would prevent the drip, but not expose the underlying cause. I'm prone to 'waste' the time it would take to understand it before I worked around the problem. It might not be soluble without extensive structural changes. Then the foam would be the ideal solution. But it also might be as simple as pulling out a few screws, sliding in a thermal barrier between roof and beam, and putting the screws back in. LLoyd |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
"Shed_Fiddler" wrote in message
. au... Long post follows..... I've got a problem with condensation in my workshop I can't understand. I'm getting condensation on the bottom side of the metal beam above the doorway. It extends about 1 foot to the left of the door. The other roof beams stay dry, it only appears to condense above the door and a little to each side of the door. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tion%20(1).JPG https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tion%20(2).JPG Initially I thought it was roof leakage so I lifted the cladding and replaced the metal flashing angle, sealing both sides well with a copious amount of silicone sealant. I found the condensation was still occurring and thought that it may be damp air drawn into the shed at night via the gap between the door and the door frame. I figured the moisture was condensing on the cool metal beam (the cladding is screwed to the top side of this beam) so I purchased some neat fitting self adhesive rubber seal. I fitted this across the top and down the sides of the door. The bottom of the door has a wiper type storm seal. Despite this on rainless nights / days I'm still getting condensation drips forming on the metal beam. Where is it coming from?????? What I know: 1) Clay brick walls. 2) Steel beams 4" x 2". 3) Flat sheet steel roof cladding. 4) Temperature range - days typically 70F, nights may go as low as 40F 5) Roof lined with 2" polystyrene sheets spaced 1" from roof cladding. 6) Door / door frame gap sealed. 7) I have a "whirly bird" wind driven ventilator at the high end of the roof opposite the door (12 feet away). 8) I added a solar panel driven 120mm 12V fan to pump outside into the shed in an attempt to keep it dry - its made no difference in 2 weeks of running. 9) Weather location - Perth Western Australia. Ideas ??? Cheers. A simple way to investigate air infiltration is to ballast a Mylar helium balloon to neutral buoyancy and watch where it travels. Latex balloons work but leak down fast enough that you'll have to adjust the weight frequently. I used thread and snipped the end. Watch out for heaters and exposed light bulbs. -jsw |
#8
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
On 07-Aug-14 9:28 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
amdx fired this volley in news:lrvtv1$nfg$1@dont- email.me: That's what I was trying to convey, the door and window foam. I wonder how it would come out of you pinched or restricted the tube on one of the door and window foam cans? Could you get a spray? No, not a useful one. 'Boxing' the beam with some light framing, then filling the void end-to-end would be the easiest way with that material. You could even use a piece of plastic gutter material as the trough. All that said, it would prevent the drip, but not expose the underlying cause. I'm prone to 'waste' the time it would take to understand it before I worked around the problem. It might not be soluble without extensive structural changes. Then the foam would be the ideal solution. But it also might be as simple as pulling out a few screws, sliding in a thermal barrier between roof and beam, and putting the screws back in. LLoyd Thanks for the ideas guys. I like the idea of insulating the beam surface. I may be able to find some thin self adhesive insulation - cheap & effective. The thermal barrier idea is interesting but will be difficult as I initially thought is was water leakage (its winter here) and I've pretty much glued the cladding to the beam with silicone rubber (silastic). The thing I don't get is that the beam is the full length of the workshop and it only gets condensation over the top of the door frame. Everything else is equal - that's why I figured it was from air leakage around the door. I'll head to our big hardware retailer and see what insulation they have. Cheers. |
#9
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
On 07-Aug-14 11:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Shed_Fiddler" wrote in message . au... Long post follows..... I've got a problem with condensation in my workshop I can't understand. I'm getting condensation on the bottom side of the metal beam above the doorway. It extends about 1 foot to the left of the door. The other roof beams stay dry, it only appears to condense above the door and a little to each side of the door. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tion%20(1).JPG https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tion%20(2).JPG Initially I thought it was roof leakage so I lifted the cladding and replaced the metal flashing angle, sealing both sides well with a copious amount of silicone sealant. I found the condensation was still occurring and thought that it may be damp air drawn into the shed at night via the gap between the door and the door frame. I figured the moisture was condensing on the cool metal beam (the cladding is screwed to the top side of this beam) so I purchased some neat fitting self adhesive rubber seal. I fitted this across the top and down the sides of the door. The bottom of the door has a wiper type storm seal. Despite this on rainless nights / days I'm still getting condensation drips forming on the metal beam. Where is it coming from?????? What I know: 1) Clay brick walls. 2) Steel beams 4" x 2". 3) Flat sheet steel roof cladding. 4) Temperature range - days typically 70F, nights may go as low as 40F 5) Roof lined with 2" polystyrene sheets spaced 1" from roof cladding. 6) Door / door frame gap sealed. 7) I have a "whirly bird" wind driven ventilator at the high end of the roof opposite the door (12 feet away). 8) I added a solar panel driven 120mm 12V fan to pump outside into the shed in an attempt to keep it dry - its made no difference in 2 weeks of running. 9) Weather location - Perth Western Australia. Ideas ??? Cheers. A simple way to investigate air infiltration is to ballast a Mylar helium balloon to neutral buoyancy and watch where it travels. Latex balloons work but leak down fast enough that you'll have to adjust the weight frequently. I used thread and snipped the end. Watch out for heaters and exposed light bulbs. -jsw Good thought Jim, helium might be a bit of a pain, but I may go out there this evening and hold a candle near the door and see if I can spot any draft around its perimeter. |
#10
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
On 8/8/2014 2:39 AM, Shed_Fiddler wrote:
... I like the idea of insulating the beam surface. I may be able to find some thin self adhesive insulation - cheap & effective. ... Don't get it so thin that it doesn't insulate enough and you just get condensation on the insulation. |
#11
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
On 8/8/2014 7:15 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 8/8/2014 2:39 AM, Shed_Fiddler wrote: ... I like the idea of insulating the beam surface. I may be able to find some thin self adhesive insulation - cheap & effective. ... Don't get it so thin that it doesn't insulate enough and you just get condensation on the insulation. Also, make sure you seal it well so no air can circulate, otherwise the insulation you have installed keeps the beam from warming and the air that does circulate, has the water condense out on the beam. |
#12
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 3:59:43 AM UTC-7, Shed_Fiddler wrote:
I've got a problem with condensation in my workshop I can't understand. I'm getting condensation on the bottom side of the metal beam above the doorway. It extends about 1 foot to the left of the door. The other roof beams stay dry... I'll offer a contrarian view: your condensation results from cold iron and moist air. Since moisture is NOT a good thing, put MORE cold iron up there (I'm thinking a galvanized pipe with water fill, lotsa pounds per foot) and pitch it so the condensation collects at a drain or drains. If you see beads form, apply wetting agent (or some of that sheeting-action auto finish) so the water flows to the drain. I like 'amdx' suggestion to foam insulate the beam (so it doesn't rust). |
#13
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
On 13-Aug-14 3:47 AM, whit3rd wrote:
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 3:59:43 AM UTC-7, Shed_Fiddler wrote: I've got a problem with condensation in my workshop I can't understand. I'm getting condensation on the bottom side of the metal beam above the doorway. It extends about 1 foot to the left of the door. The other roof beams stay dry... I'll offer a contrarian view: your condensation results from cold iron and moist air. Since moisture is NOT a good thing, put MORE cold iron up there (I'm thinking a galvanized pipe with water fill, lotsa pounds per foot) and pitch it so the condensation collects at a drain or drains. If you see beads form, apply wetting agent (or some of that sheeting-action auto finish) so the water flows to the drain. I like 'amdx' suggestion to foam insulate the beam (so it doesn't rust). That's an interesting idea, unfortunately not really practical to do in my shed though. When I get a chance I'm going to get some insulation and cover the part of the beam that's giving me trouble. Next summer I'll put some more sealant on the outside of the single layer brick wall to try to further reduce moisture ingress. Cheers. |
#14
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
On Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:15:21 AM UTC-4, Shed_Fiddler wrote:
On 13-Aug-14 3:47 AM, whit3rd wrote: On Thursday, August 7, 2014 3:59:43 AM UTC-7, Shed_Fiddler wrote: I've got a problem with condensation in my workshop I can't understand. I'm getting condensation on the bottom side of the metal beam above the doorway. It extends about 1 foot to the left of the door. The other roof beams stay dry... I'll offer a contrarian view: your condensation results from cold iron and moist air. Since moisture is NOT a good thing, put MORE cold iron up there (I'm thinking a galvanized pipe with water fill, lotsa pounds per foot) and pitch it so the condensation collects at a drain or drains. If you see beads form, apply wetting agent (or some of that sheeting-action auto finish) so the water flows to the drain. I like 'amdx' suggestion to foam insulate the beam (so it doesn't rust). That's an interesting idea, unfortunately not really practical to do in my shed though. When I get a chance I'm going to get some insulation and cover the part of the beam that's giving me trouble. Next summer I'll put some more sealant on the outside of the single layer brick wall to try to further reduce moisture ingress. For a birds-eye view, since the early 1990's, this topic has come up over and over. Usually, the indoor humidity threads end with deciding to increasing circulation in that area (sometimes with adding and running a window-air-conditioner away from the window and put where the most condensation is collecting). |
#15
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Workshop Condensation - ideas?
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 6:59:43 AM UTC-4, Shed_Fiddler wrote:
Long post follows..... I've got a problem with condensation in my workshop I can't understand. I'm getting condensation on the bottom side of the metal beam above the doorway. It extends about 1 foot to the left of the door. The other roof beams stay dry, it only appears to condense above the door and a little to each side of the door. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tion%20(1).JPG https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tion%20(2).JPG Initially I thought it was roof leakage so I lifted the cladding and replaced the metal flashing angle, sealing both sides well with a copious amount of silicone sealant. I found the condensation was still occurring and thought that it may be damp air drawn into the shed at night via the gap between the door and the door frame. I figured the moisture was condensing on the cool metal beam (the cladding is screwed to the top side of this beam) so I purchased some neat fitting self adhesive rubber seal. I fitted this across the top and down the sides of the door. The bottom of the door has a wiper type storm seal. Despite this on rainless nights / days I'm still getting condensation drips forming on the metal beam. Where is it coming from?????? What I know: 1) Clay brick walls. 2) Steel beams 4" x 2". 3) Flat sheet steel roof cladding. 4) Temperature range - days typically 70F, nights may go as low as 40F 5) Roof lined with 2" polystyrene sheets spaced 1" from roof cladding. 6) Door / door frame gap sealed. 7) I have a "whirly bird" wind driven ventilator at the high end of the roof opposite the door (12 feet away). 8) I added a solar panel driven 120mm 12V fan to pump outside into the shed in an attempt to keep it dry - its made no difference in 2 weeks of running. 9) Weather location - Perth Western Australia. Ideas ??? For a birds-eye view, since the early 1990's, this topic has come up over and over. Usually, the indoor humidity threads end with deciding to increase circulation in the wet area (sometimes with adding and running a window-air-conditioner away from the window and put where the most condensation is collecting). |
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