On 8/1/2014 3:17 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Friday, August 1, 2014 3:47:53 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

Would you care to comment on the lethality of this DIY stun gun in
this video. When he connects it to the light bulb it lights, it is
possible the filament is open, but if you watch closely, it looks like
the filament is slow to warm and cool (relatively) not like an arc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HM4oiJNGJs
I think it might be deadly. I don't think 4 ma will light that bulb.

Mike
I also doubt 4mA would light that bulb. a 60W 120V bulb draws half an amp when fully lit, and a lot more than that when cold.

I imagine the deadliness would depend very much on where you made contact. You wouldn't for instance, want to hold one electrode in each hand.

For me, I'd just as soon not mess with it at all. At best, you'd get a nasty burn. I don't even care for the TENS machine at the physical therapist's office.

I'm reminded of a line (perhaps the only good one) from "War Games." The general said, "Hell, I'd **** on a spark plug if I thought it would help." OUCH!

Yep, I bought a TENS machine at a yard sale 10 or 15 years ago. I
didn't do anything with except test it by getting a few shocks.
Then about 4 years ago I herniated L5/S1 and L4/L5, I have used it
mostly just to have a change of pain.
Regarding the light bulb, I can't tell if it is a 40w or a 60w, but
the cold filament resistance is probably around 20 to 30 ohms, it would
be interesting to know the current while driving the bulb.
Mikek

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On 8/1/2014 3:53 PM, amdx wrote:
On 8/1/2014 3:17 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Friday, August 1, 2014 3:47:53 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

Would you care to comment on the lethality of this DIY stun gun in
this video. When he connects it to the light bulb it lights, it is
possible the filament is open, but if you watch closely, it looks like
the filament is slow to warm and cool (relatively) not like an arc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HM4oiJNGJs
I think it might be deadly. I don't think 4 ma will light that bulb.

Mike
I also doubt 4mA would light that bulb. a 60W 120V bulb draws half an
amp when fully lit, and a lot more than that when cold.

I imagine the deadliness would depend very much on where you made
contact. You wouldn't for instance, want to hold one electrode in each
hand.

For me, I'd just as soon not mess with it at all. At best, you'd get a
nasty burn. I don't even care for the TENS machine at the physical
therapist's office.

I'm reminded of a line (perhaps the only good one) from "War Games."
The general said, "Hell, I'd **** on a spark plug if I thought it
would help." OUCH!

Yep, I bought a TENS machine at a yard sale 10 or 15 years ago. I
didn't do anything with except test it by getting a few shocks.
Then about 4 years ago I herniated L5/S1 and L4/L5, I have used it
mostly just to have a change of pain.
Regarding the light bulb, I can't tell if it is a 40w or a 60w, but
the cold filament resistance is probably around 20 to 30 ohms, it would
be interesting to know the current while driving the bulb.
Mikek

I just got to thinking, the output voltage must be well below 120
volts, otherwise the bulb would glow a lot brighter.
Mikek


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amdx fired this volley in news:lrgv8c$1fe$1@dont-
email.me:

I just got to thinking, the output voltage must be well below 120
volts, otherwise the bulb would glow a lot brighter.
Mikek


Yep, you're right. But the point is, if it can deliver the half-amp or
so necessary to 'glow' that bulb (at, say, 10V), think how high the
voltage would be at only 5ma (1/100th of that)... if you were doing the
math, AND the output impedance/resistance were linear, that would be
1000V; although there's not enough information there to say that
conclusively. On would have to test a bulb to see how much current it
took to make it glow like that, then measure the voltage across it.


LLoyd

On 8/1/2014 4:24 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
amdx fired this volley in news:lrgv8c$1fe$1@dont-
email.me:

I just got to thinking, the output voltage must be well below 120
volts, otherwise the bulb would glow a lot brighter.
Mikek


Yep, you're right. But the point is, if it can deliver the half-amp or
so necessary to 'glow' that bulb (at, say, 10V), think how high the
voltage would be at only 5ma (1/100th of that)... if you were doing the
math, AND the output impedance/resistance were linear, that would be
1000V; although there's not enough information there to say that
conclusively. One would have to test a bulb to see how much current it
took to make it glow like that, then measure the voltage across it.


LLoyd


I have posted the question in the comments section on youtube , but I
doubt I'll get a response.
I think we agree that DIY stun gun could be deadly.
Mikek

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amdx fired this volley in news:lrh1r8$in6$1@dont-
email.me:

I have posted the question in the comments section on youtube , but I
doubt I'll get a response.
I think we agree that DIY stun gun could be deadly.

Well, likely someone that ignorant of the deadly potential of the device
doesn't know about "swinging" inductors or the like, so it's probably just
(if at all, intentionally) resistively limited, or only by the winding
resistance of the secondary in the coil.

LLoyd

In article , Lloyd
E. Sponenburgh wrote:

amdx fired this volley in news:lrgv8c$1fe$1@dont-
email.me:

I just got to thinking, the output voltage must be well below 120
volts, otherwise the bulb would glow a lot brighter.
Mikek


Yep, you're right. But the point is, if it can deliver the half-amp or
so necessary to 'glow' that bulb (at, say, 10V), think how high the
voltage would be at only 5ma (1/100th of that)... if you were doing the
math, AND the output impedance/resistance were linear, that would be
1000V; although there's not enough information there to say that
conclusively. On would have to test a bulb to see how much current it
took to make it glow like that, then measure the voltage across it.

My guess is that it's sparking over the filament. Incandescent bulbs
these days are filled with low pressure xenon or argon, and that is
probably the path of least resistance. Arcs in gas can have negative
resistance.

Nor is the battery powering the homebrew stun gun all that large.

Joe Gwinn

On 8/1/2014 6:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Lloyd
E. Sponenburgh wrote:

amdx fired this volley in news:lrgv8c$1fe$1@dont-
email.me:

I just got to thinking, the output voltage must be well below 120
volts, otherwise the bulb would glow a lot brighter.
Mikek


Yep, you're right. But the point is, if it can deliver the half-amp or
so necessary to 'glow' that bulb (at, say, 10V), think how high the
voltage would be at only 5ma (1/100th of that)... if you were doing the
math, AND the output impedance/resistance were linear, that would be
1000V; although there's not enough information there to say that
conclusively. On would have to test a bulb to see how much current it
took to make it glow like that, then measure the voltage across it.

My guess is that it's sparking over the filament. Incandescent bulbs
these days are filled with low pressure xenon or argon, and that is
probably the path of least resistance. Arcs in gas can have negative
resistance.

Nor is the battery powering the homebrew stun gun all that large.

Joe Gwinn


I don't know but, I doesn't seem like it would arc when there is a
say 20 ohm wire for it to flow thru. Once it sees the 20 ohm load the
voltage has dropped way way down at least across the light bulb. Note
the 20 ohms is in series with the arc on the base of the bulb, he can't
quite make connections to both electrodes to the bulb.

Something has me puzzled, once you get an arc across the electrodes of
the stun gun, the plasma is very low ohms. That would drop the output
voltage.
So the question;
Once you have an arc started can you sustain it with low voltage?

Mikek

On 8/1/2014 2:47 PM, amdx wrote:
On 7/31/2014 4:17 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:44:14 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/31/2014 2:23 PM, wrote:

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 1:57:33 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:



I don't know how you can discuss voltage and current without also

including impedance (resistance) in the same discussion. They

are all directly related and inseparable in this context.









How would discussing impedance in any way alter the specific high
voltages advertised for the taser and stun-gun that I told Lloyd
about as an example?





Very good question! The answer should lead to understanding.



A power supply or voltage source is modeled as a voltage source with

ZERO internal resistance (impedance) in series with some resistance.



I will pick numbers that I saw for Tasers to use in an example.

My example is not perfect, I hope I can explain why.

50,000 volts and 2 milliamps. In order for a 50,000 volt source to

only deliver 2 milliamps the internal resistance (impedance) has to be

2.5 million ohms.



What that means is, if you short the output pins, 2 milliamps will

flow from one to the other. But with a short on the output the voltage

between the pins will be 0 volts.



Now if we assumed the combined resistance happened to be 1,000 ohms

the voltage would rise to 1.9999 volts and 0.001999 milliamps would
flow.

*the 1,000 ohms consists of the combination pin to skin resistance, the

resistance of the skin between the pins, and the another skin to pin

resistance.



If we assume 100,000* ohms between the two pins then the voltage

will increase to 199.2 volts with 0.001992 milliamps flowing.



If the combined resistance happened to be 1 million ohms

the voltage would rise to 1923 volts and 0.001923 milliamps would flow.



Where my example may fall short, I don't know how the measure to get

their specifications. I assumed 50,000 volts open circuit and 2

milliamps short circuit current.



As you may see from that, The output voltage is not 50,000 when

the pins are put against the skin. Also the current is limited to

2 milliamps or less because of the internal impedance of the stun gun.

Mikek

Oh CRAP. 50E3/2E-3 = 25E6 NOT 2.5E6. While the reasoning in your
explanation is fine, a decimal place has been dropped. I didn't check
the rest of it (left as an exercise for the reader).

But the point is the same: The stun gun CAN'T put out more than 2mA
because of the generated voltage and the internal resistance
(impedance if you prefer, but I'll bet most of it is resistance). If
it was a lower voltage with the same resistance, the max current would
be lower.

Anyone who wants to argue with that is simply not worth arguing.

Would you care to comment on the lethality of this DIY stun gun in
this video. When he connects it to the light bulb it lights, it is
possible the filament is open, but if you watch closely, it looks like
the filament is slow to warm and cool (relatively) not like an arc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HM4oiJNGJs
I think it might be deadly. I don't think 4 ma will light that bulb.

Mike


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The Arc is so hot - more than 4 ma any day. Likely 40ma The light bulb
wasn't drawing current like normal.
The resistance is high enough that arcing across the turns of the
tungsten occurred and the arc was inside of the glass tube.

And if you look closely the bulb has a dark spot on the side - might
be a burned out bulb just arcing away across the open.

Remember a cold light bulb is 1/10 of the resistance when hot. Thus 10x
current flows for an instant. (reason so many bulbs go bad then)
and why I put shunt resistors across controls in designs to keep the
filaments Warm but not glowing as it extends the lamps for years. I
have a design done in high school (at home) and the lamps (Christmas
tree) are still burning upon command. The tungsten is spongy and
brittle once heated to full temp. Flexing it causes fractures.
Dimmers are the modern home best friend. Slight different current
and a slow start keeps the bulbs burning.



Martin

amdx fired this volley in news:lrhdki$jid$1@dont-
email.me:

So the question;
Once you have an arc started can you sustain it with low voltage?

Is that rhetorical, for the group, or do you want an answer? It's simple,
really. So is the reason why you can _appear_ to do so.

Lloyd

writes:

In three years of electrical and 1 year of HVAC school, you
hear stuff like E=IR and P=IE

But "in my book" non-auto electricians don't normally mix with
auto electricians.

Well, of course not.... Those grease jockeys think BLACK is GROUND!
We all know black is phase.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On 8/1/2014 8:45 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 8/1/2014 2:47 PM, amdx wrote:
On 7/31/2014 4:17 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:44:14 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/31/2014 2:23 PM, wrote:

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 1:57:33 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:



I don't know how you can discuss voltage and current without also

including impedance (resistance) in the same discussion. They

are all directly related and inseparable in this context.









How would discussing impedance in any way alter the specific high
voltages advertised for the taser and stun-gun that I told Lloyd
about as an example?





Very good question! The answer should lead to understanding.



A power supply or voltage source is modeled as a voltage source with

ZERO internal resistance (impedance) in series with some resistance.



I will pick numbers that I saw for Tasers to use in an example.

My example is not perfect, I hope I can explain why.

50,000 volts and 2 milliamps. In order for a 50,000 volt source to

only deliver 2 milliamps the internal resistance (impedance) has to be

2.5 million ohms.



What that means is, if you short the output pins, 2 milliamps will

flow from one to the other. But with a short on the output the voltage

between the pins will be 0 volts.



Now if we assumed the combined resistance happened to be 1,000 ohms

the voltage would rise to 1.9999 volts and 0.001999 milliamps would
flow.

*the 1,000 ohms consists of the combination pin to skin resistance, the

resistance of the skin between the pins, and the another skin to pin

resistance.



If we assume 100,000* ohms between the two pins then the voltage

will increase to 199.2 volts with 0.001992 milliamps flowing.



If the combined resistance happened to be 1 million ohms

the voltage would rise to 1923 volts and 0.001923 milliamps would flow.



Where my example may fall short, I don't know how the measure to get

their specifications. I assumed 50,000 volts open circuit and 2

milliamps short circuit current.



As you may see from that, The output voltage is not 50,000 when

the pins are put against the skin. Also the current is limited to

2 milliamps or less because of the internal impedance of the stun gun.

Mikek

Oh CRAP. 50E3/2E-3 = 25E6 NOT 2.5E6. While the reasoning in your
explanation is fine, a decimal place has been dropped. I didn't check
the rest of it (left as an exercise for the reader).

But the point is the same: The stun gun CAN'T put out more than 2mA
because of the generated voltage and the internal resistance
(impedance if you prefer, but I'll bet most of it is resistance). If
it was a lower voltage with the same resistance, the max current would
be lower.

Anyone who wants to argue with that is simply not worth arguing.

Would you care to comment on the lethality of this DIY stun gun in
this video. When he connects it to the light bulb it lights, it is
possible the filament is open, but if you watch closely, it looks like
the filament is slow to warm and cool (relatively) not like an arc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HM4oiJNGJs
I think it might be deadly. I don't think 4 ma will light that bulb.

Mike


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The Arc is so hot - more than 4 ma any day. Likely 40ma The light bulb
wasn't drawing current like normal.
The resistance is high enough that arcing across the turns of the
tungsten occurred and the arc was inside of the glass tube.

And if you look closely the bulb has a dark spot on the side - might
be a burned out bulb just arcing away across the open.

Just the way the glow of the bulb slowly rises in brightness and then
slowly dims makes me think current is flowing in the filament, however
a plasma across the filament may cause the same effect. So I'll probably
never have answer.

Mikek

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On 8/1/2014 4:24 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
amdx fired this volley in news:lrgv8c$1fe$1@dont-
email.me:

I just got to thinking, the output voltage must be well below 120
volts, otherwise the bulb would glow a lot brighter.
Mikek


Yep, you're right. But the point is, if it can deliver the half-amp or
so necessary to 'glow' that bulb (at, say, 10V), think how high the
voltage would be at only 5ma (1/100th of that)... if you were doing the
math, AND the output impedance/resistance were linear, that would be
1000V; although there's not enough information there to say that
conclusively. On would have to test a bulb to see how much current it
took to make it glow like that, then measure the voltage across it.


LLoyd

I also came across a reference that said the resistance of the human
body is not linear with voltage. I think I saw that in the IEC 479.
I should have posted it but I don't know where it is at now.
Mikek

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On 8/1/2014 9:14 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
amdx fired this volley in news:lrhdki$jid$1@dont-
email.me:

So the question;
Once you have an arc started can you sustain it with low voltage?

Is that rhetorical, for the group, or do you want an answer? It's simple,
really. So is the reason why you can _appear_ to do so.

Lloyd

No, I'm ignorant on that subject. I am looking for an answer.
I have some 15kv neon transformers, I could connect one to my variac
and test it myself, but I'm getting lazier as I get older.
My thinking is the plasma is a conductor so it will sustain an arc at
lower voltages, but if there is not enough current to keep it hot, the
arc will extinguish. But that one big speculation on my part
Mikek

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On 8/1/2014 10:42 PM, David Lesher wrote:
writes:

In three years of electrical and 1 year of HVAC school, you
hear stuff like E=IR and P=IE

But "in my book" non-auto electricians don't normally mix with
auto electricians.

Well, of course not.... Those grease jockeys think BLACK is GROUND!
We all know black is phase.


You may have been tongue in cheek with your comment, but I feel the
need to point out a good auto tech is far from a shade tree mechanic,
and has much training for work on complicated systems.
Mikek

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"amdx" wrote in message
...
On 8/1/2014 9:14 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
amdx fired this volley in
news:lrhdki$jid$1@dont-
email.me:

So the question;
Once you have an arc started can you sustain it with low voltage?

Is that rhetorical, for the group, or do you want an answer? It's
simple,
really. So is the reason why you can _appear_ to do so.

Lloyd

No, I'm ignorant on that subject. I am looking for an answer.
I have some 15kv neon transformers, I could connect one to my variac
and test it myself, but I'm getting lazier as I get older.
My thinking is the plasma is a conductor so it will sustain an arc
at
lower voltages, but if there is not enough current to keep it hot,
the arc will extinguish. But that one big speculation on my part
Mikek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_lamp
You can pull a thin arc several inches long in air with a TIG welder
at low current. I can't switch off the high frequency on mine to see
how low a DC voltage will sustain an arc.

http://www.bourns.com/pdfs/bourns_gdt_white_paper.pdf
"The arc voltage is the voltage rating that is specified as 10 V @ 1
A for Bourns® GDTs."

-jsw

amdx fired this volley in news:lrj1nc$kch$1@dont-
email.me:

No, I'm ignorant on that subject. I am looking for an answer.
I have some 15kv neon transformers, I could connect one to my variac
and test it myself, but I'm getting lazier as I get older.
My thinking is the plasma is a conductor so it will sustain an arc at
lower voltages, but if there is not enough current to keep it hot, the
arc will extinguish. But that one big speculation on my part
Mikek

Well, you answered yourself quite well.
Actually, with most HV devices, the arc does stop -- at twice whatever
the frequency of the output transformer; 60Hz, 120KHz, whatever.

But the column of ionized air takes a while to cool, and remains more
conductive than air for a period of time.

I don't know how much current is necessary to keep it hot, but it is true
that even with an intermittent arc, the arc path will maintain a lower
resistance long enough to wait for the next half-cycle.

It's why lightning can strike multiple times in exactly the same spot and
air path.

Lloyd

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
writes:

In three years of electrical and 1 year of HVAC school, you
hear stuff like E=IR and P=IE

But "in my book" non-auto electricians don't normally mix with
auto electricians.

Well, of course not.... Those grease jockeys think BLACK is GROUND!
We all know black is phase.

Only if "we" are dinosaurs. The IEC colors are brown for line, blue
for neutral and green-yellow for ground.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_2/2.html
"The US National Electrical Code only mandates white (or grey) for the
neutral power conductor and bare copper, green, or green with yellow
stripe for the protective ground. In principle any other colors except
these may be used for the power conductors."

For thermocouples red is the negative lead, which trips me up if I
don't pay attention. I've color-coded my t/c connectors with dots of
fingernail polish.

-sheesh

In article , amdx
wrote:

On 8/1/2014 6:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
In article , Lloyd
E. Sponenburgh wrote:

amdx fired this volley in news:lrgv8c$1fe$1@dont-
email.me:

I just got to thinking, the output voltage must be well below 120
volts, otherwise the bulb would glow a lot brighter.
Mikek


Yep, you're right. But the point is, if it can deliver the half-amp or
so necessary to 'glow' that bulb (at, say, 10V), think how high the
voltage would be at only 5ma (1/100th of that)... if you were doing the
math, AND the output impedance/resistance were linear, that would be
1000V; although there's not enough information there to say that
conclusively. On would have to test a bulb to see how much current it
took to make it glow like that, then measure the voltage across it.

My guess is that it's sparking over the filament. Incandescent bulbs
these days are filled with low pressure xenon or argon, and that is
probably the path of least resistance. Arcs in gas can have negative
resistance.

Nor is the battery powering the homebrew stun gun all that large.

Joe Gwinn


I don't know but, I doesn't seem like it would arc when there is a
say 20 ohm wire for it to flow thru. Once it sees the 20 ohm load the
voltage has dropped way way down at least across the light bulb. Note
the 20 ohms is in series with the arc on the base of the bulb, he can't
quite make connections to both electrodes to the bulb.

We don't know the full details of the inverter used, but it will be
high frequency square waves, so the rate of rise is quite fast. The
filament is coiled or even supercoiled, and so has some inductance.
And at RF, the stray capacitance allows significant current to flow.
As others have mentioned, this is how many welders strike their arc.


Something has me puzzled, once you get an arc across the electrodes of
the stun gun, the plasma is very low ohms. That would drop the output
voltage.
So the question;
Once you have an arc started can you sustain it with low voltage?

Absolutely. Typical neon sign transformer puts 7,500 or 15,000 volts
across the tube to strike the arc, but is impedance limited so it is
happy working into a short circuit.

...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon-sign_transformer


Joe Gwinn

"Jim Wilkins" writes:

Well, of course not.... Those grease jockeys think BLACK is GROUND!
We all know black is phase.

Only if "we" are dinosaurs. The IEC colors are brown for line, blue
for neutral and green-yellow for ground.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_2/2.html
"The US National Electrical Code only mandates white (or grey) for the
neutral power conductor and bare copper, green, or green with yellow
stripe for the protective ground. In principle any other colors except
these may be used for the power conductors."

That's only the NEC. The powerr companies follow NESC instead.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On 8/2/2014 10:15 AM, amdx wrote:
On 8/1/2014 8:45 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 8/1/2014 2:47 PM, amdx wrote:
On 7/31/2014 4:17 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:44:14 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/31/2014 2:23 PM, wrote:

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 1:57:33 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:



I don't know how you can discuss voltage and current without also

including impedance (resistance) in the same discussion. They

are all directly related and inseparable in this context.









How would discussing impedance in any way alter the specific high
voltages advertised for the taser and stun-gun that I told Lloyd
about as an example?





Very good question! The answer should lead to understanding.



A power supply or voltage source is modeled as a voltage source with

ZERO internal resistance (impedance) in series with some resistance.



I will pick numbers that I saw for Tasers to use in an example.

My example is not perfect, I hope I can explain why.

50,000 volts and 2 milliamps. In order for a 50,000 volt source to

only deliver 2 milliamps the internal resistance (impedance) has to be

2.5 million ohms.



What that means is, if you short the output pins, 2 milliamps will

flow from one to the other. But with a short on the output the voltage

between the pins will be 0 volts.



Now if we assumed the combined resistance happened to be 1,000 ohms

the voltage would rise to 1.9999 volts and 0.001999 milliamps would
flow.

*the 1,000 ohms consists of the combination pin to skin resistance,
the

resistance of the skin between the pins, and the another skin to pin

resistance.



If we assume 100,000* ohms between the two pins then the voltage

will increase to 199.2 volts with 0.001992 milliamps flowing.



If the combined resistance happened to be 1 million ohms

the voltage would rise to 1923 volts and 0.001923 milliamps would
flow.



Where my example may fall short, I don't know how the measure to
get

their specifications. I assumed 50,000 volts open circuit and 2

milliamps short circuit current.



As you may see from that, The output voltage is not 50,000 when

the pins are put against the skin. Also the current is limited to

2 milliamps or less because of the internal impedance of the stun gun.

Mikek

Oh CRAP. 50E3/2E-3 = 25E6 NOT 2.5E6. While the reasoning in your
explanation is fine, a decimal place has been dropped. I didn't check
the rest of it (left as an exercise for the reader).

But the point is the same: The stun gun CAN'T put out more than 2mA
because of the generated voltage and the internal resistance
(impedance if you prefer, but I'll bet most of it is resistance). If
it was a lower voltage with the same resistance, the max current would
be lower.

Anyone who wants to argue with that is simply not worth arguing.

Would you care to comment on the lethality of this DIY stun gun in
this video. When he connects it to the light bulb it lights, it is
possible the filament is open, but if you watch closely, it looks like
the filament is slow to warm and cool (relatively) not like an arc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HM4oiJNGJs
I think it might be deadly. I don't think 4 ma will light that bulb.

Mike


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The Arc is so hot - more than 4 ma any day. Likely 40ma The light bulb
wasn't drawing current like normal.
The resistance is high enough that arcing across the turns of the
tungsten occurred and the arc was inside of the glass tube.

And if you look closely the bulb has a dark spot on the side - might
be a burned out bulb just arcing away across the open.

Just the way the glow of the bulb slowly rises in brightness and then
slowly dims makes me think current is flowing in the filament, however
a plasma across the filament may cause the same effect. So I'll probably
never have answer.

Mikek

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If you can see the change it isn't the filament drawing current.
Martin

On 8/1/2014 10:42 PM, David Lesher wrote:
writes:

In three years of electrical and 1 year of HVAC school, you
hear stuff like E=IR and P=IE

But "in my book" non-auto electricians don't normally mix with
auto electricians.

Well, of course not.... Those grease jockeys think BLACK is GROUND!
We all know black is phase.


I was taught black was death. White is an angel. Green is good earth.
Martin

Martin Eastburn fired this volley in
:

If you can see the change it isn't the filament drawing current.
Martin


Just the opposite, Martin. An arc strikes and quenches instantaneously (up
to several microseconds really, which isn't actually instantaneous, but it
would appear to be to the human eye). Only a filament's heating and
cooling would cause a visible ramping in brightness up and down.

Lloyd

On 8/2/2014 9:18 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Martin Eastburn fired this volley in
:

If you can see the change it isn't the filament drawing current.
Martin


Just the opposite, Martin. An arc strikes and quenches instantaneously (up
to several microseconds really, which isn't actually instantaneous, but it
would appear to be to the human eye). Only a filament's heating and
cooling would cause a visible ramping in brightness up and down.

Lloyd

I don't buy it Lloyd You claim you can see a light bulb start to glow
and then light and then when shut down the glow goes down in stages ?

If the filament was being heated by an arcing across plasma stream it
would ramp up in real time and could be seen. Either as a broken
filament or across the 'skin' of the tungsten which heats up the filament.

I have a degree in Physics and 20+years as a EE. A heating filament is
simply to fast to see and the eye integrates the changes.

Martin

Martin Eastburn fired this volley in
news
I have a degree in Physics and 20+years as a EE. A heating filament is
simply to fast to see and the eye integrates the changes.


C'mon, you know very well that if you apply relatively high-impedance
supply across a filament, it will VISIBLY 'warm up'.

And that is simply because it's working in the very domain we've been
discussing, as a PTC resistor with a large coefficient of delta-R/delta-
T.

If you've never seen that, I'd say you need to go rig it up on the bench.
Nearly anyone who's ever done a stint as a tech would be familiar with
the effect.

Lloyd

On 8/2/2014 9:45 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 8/2/2014 9:18 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Martin Eastburn fired this volley in
:

If you can see the change it isn't the filament drawing current.
Martin


Just the opposite, Martin. An arc strikes and quenches
instantaneously (up
to several microseconds really, which isn't actually instantaneous,
but it
would appear to be to the human eye). Only a filament's heating and
cooling would cause a visible ramping in brightness up and down.

Lloyd

I don't buy it Lloyd You claim you can see a light bulb start to glow
and then light and then when shut down the glow goes down in stages ?

If the filament was being heated by an arcing across plasma stream it
would ramp up in real time and could be seen. Either as a broken
filament or across the 'skin' of the tungsten which heats up the filament.

I have a degree in Physics and 20+years as a EE. A heating filament is
simply to fast to see and the eye integrates the changes.

Martin

You can certainly see a filament ramp up at lower voltages, I think we
have concluded that the filament has lower voltage on it.

Another explanation would be, the filament is there but open, the arc
jumps across and heats the filament and there is a lag to heat it to
glow and then a lag to cool and reduce the glow.
Mikek

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 20:45:25 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 8/1/2014 2:47 PM, amdx wrote:
On 7/31/2014 4:17 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:44:14 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 7/31/2014 2:23 PM, wrote:

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 1:57:33 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:



I don't know how you can discuss voltage and current without also

including impedance (resistance) in the same discussion. They

are all directly related and inseparable in this context.









How would discussing impedance in any way alter the specific high
voltages advertised for the taser and stun-gun that I told Lloyd
about as an example?





Very good question! The answer should lead to understanding.



A power supply or voltage source is modeled as a voltage source with

ZERO internal resistance (impedance) in series with some resistance.



I will pick numbers that I saw for Tasers to use in an example.

My example is not perfect, I hope I can explain why.

50,000 volts and 2 milliamps. In order for a 50,000 volt source to

only deliver 2 milliamps the internal resistance (impedance) has to be

2.5 million ohms.



What that means is, if you short the output pins, 2 milliamps will

flow from one to the other. But with a short on the output the voltage

between the pins will be 0 volts.



Now if we assumed the combined resistance happened to be 1,000 ohms

the voltage would rise to 1.9999 volts and 0.001999 milliamps would
flow.

*the 1,000 ohms consists of the combination pin to skin resistance, the

resistance of the skin between the pins, and the another skin to pin

resistance.



If we assume 100,000* ohms between the two pins then the voltage

will increase to 199.2 volts with 0.001992 milliamps flowing.



If the combined resistance happened to be 1 million ohms

the voltage would rise to 1923 volts and 0.001923 milliamps would flow.



Where my example may fall short, I don't know how the measure to get

their specifications. I assumed 50,000 volts open circuit and 2

milliamps short circuit current.



As you may see from that, The output voltage is not 50,000 when

the pins are put against the skin. Also the current is limited to

2 milliamps or less because of the internal impedance of the stun gun.

Mikek

Oh CRAP. 50E3/2E-3 = 25E6 NOT 2.5E6. While the reasoning in your
explanation is fine, a decimal place has been dropped. I didn't check
the rest of it (left as an exercise for the reader).

But the point is the same: The stun gun CAN'T put out more than 2mA
because of the generated voltage and the internal resistance
(impedance if you prefer, but I'll bet most of it is resistance). If
it was a lower voltage with the same resistance, the max current would
be lower.

Anyone who wants to argue with that is simply not worth arguing.

Would you care to comment on the lethality of this DIY stun gun in
this video. When he connects it to the light bulb it lights, it is
possible the filament is open, but if you watch closely, it looks like
the filament is slow to warm and cool (relatively) not like an arc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HM4oiJNGJs
I think it might be deadly. I don't think 4 ma will light that bulb.

Mike


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The Arc is so hot - more than 4 ma any day. Likely 40ma The light bulb
wasn't drawing current like normal.
The resistance is high enough that arcing across the turns of the
tungsten occurred and the arc was inside of the glass tube.

And if you look closely the bulb has a dark spot on the side - might
be a burned out bulb just arcing away across the open.

Remember a cold light bulb is 1/10 of the resistance when hot. Thus 10x
current flows for an instant. (reason so many bulbs go bad then)
and why I put shunt resistors across controls in designs to keep the
filaments Warm but not glowing as it extends the lamps for years. I
have a design done in high school (at home) and the lamps (Christmas
tree) are still burning upon command. The tungsten is spongy and
brittle once heated to full temp. Flexing it causes fractures.
Dimmers are the modern home best friend. Slight different current
and a slow start keeps the bulbs burning.



Martin

Anyone remember the little buttons that one put in lamp bases to
change the lighting voltage from AC to half wave DC?


--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."

On Sunday, August 3, 2014 11:17:37 AM UTC-4, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 20:45:25 -0500, Martin Eastburn

wrote:



On 8/1/2014 2:47 PM, amdx wrote:

On 7/31/2014 4:17 PM, rangerssuck wrote:

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:44:14 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

On 7/31/2014 2:23 PM, wrote:



On Thursday, July 31, 2014 1:57:33 PM UTC-4, rangerssuck wrote:







I don't know how you can discuss voltage and current without also



including impedance (resistance) in the same discussion. They



are all directly related and inseparable in this context.



















How would discussing impedance in any way alter the specific high

voltages advertised for the taser and stun-gun that I told Lloyd

about as an example?











Very good question! The answer should lead to understanding.







A power supply or voltage source is modeled as a voltage source with



ZERO internal resistance (impedance) in series with some resistance.







I will pick numbers that I saw for Tasers to use in an example.



My example is not perfect, I hope I can explain why.



50,000 volts and 2 milliamps. In order for a 50,000 volt source to



only deliver 2 milliamps the internal resistance (impedance) has to be



2.5 million ohms.







What that means is, if you short the output pins, 2 milliamps will



flow from one to the other. But with a short on the output the voltage



between the pins will be 0 volts.







Now if we assumed the combined resistance happened to be 1,000 ohms



the voltage would rise to 1.9999 volts and 0.001999 milliamps would

flow.



*the 1,000 ohms consists of the combination pin to skin resistance, the



resistance of the skin between the pins, and the another skin to pin



resistance.







If we assume 100,000* ohms between the two pins then the voltage



will increase to 199.2 volts with 0.001992 milliamps flowing.







If the combined resistance happened to be 1 million ohms



the voltage would rise to 1923 volts and 0.001923 milliamps would flow.







Where my example may fall short, I don't know how the measure to get



their specifications. I assumed 50,000 volts open circuit and 2



milliamps short circuit current.







As you may see from that, The output voltage is not 50,000 when



the pins are put against the skin. Also the current is limited to



2 milliamps or less because of the internal impedance of the stun gun.

On Sunday, August 3, 2014 8:03:39 AM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Martin Eastburn fired this volley in

news


I have a degree in Physics and 20+years as a EE. A heating filament is

simply to fast to see and the eye integrates the changes.





C'mon, you know very well that if you apply relatively high-impedance

supply across a filament, it will VISIBLY 'warm up'.



And that is simply because it's working in the very domain we've been

discussing, as a PTC resistor with a large coefficient of delta-R/delta-

T.



If you've never seen that, I'd say you need to go rig it up on the bench.

Nearly anyone who's ever done a stint as a tech would be familiar with

the effect.



Lloyd

I once designed a DC motor control circuit that used 1157 lamps in series with the motors as overload protectors. Worked great. When the motors were overloaded, the lamps lit and reduced the current to the motors to a point that wouldn't strip the nylon gears.

On 2014-08-03, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Anyone remember the little buttons that one put in lamp bases to
change the lighting voltage from AC to half wave DC?

Sure! Never used one. I would expect the color of the light to
shift towards orange, as well as the life of the bulb to be
significantly extended.

O.K. They must have been silicon rectifiers, as a stack of
enough selenium plates to handle the reverse voltage would be too thick
for the bulb to properly seat.

Enjoy,
Don.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 4 Aug 2014 04:01:37 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-08-03, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Anyone remember the little buttons that one put in lamp bases to
change the lighting voltage from AC to half wave DC?

Sure! Never used one. I would expect the color of the light to
shift towards orange, as well as the life of the bulb to be
significantly extended.

O.K. They must have been silicon rectifiers, as a stack of
enough selenium plates to handle the reverse voltage would be too thick
for the bulb to properly seat.

Enjoy,
Don.

Ive been trying to find data on them..and evidently my stroke damage
wont let me home in on the proper keywords to google them.

I used to have a number of them actually in operation in my parents
home in the late 1960s

Gunner

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."

On 8/4/2014 1:30 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 4 Aug 2014 04:01:37 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-08-03, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Anyone remember the little buttons that one put in lamp bases to
change the lighting voltage from AC to half wave DC?

Sure! Never used one. I would expect the color of the light to
shift towards orange, as well as the life of the bulb to be
significantly extended.

O.K. They must have been silicon rectifiers, as a stack of
enough selenium plates to handle the reverse voltage would be too thick
for the bulb to properly seat.

Enjoy,
Don.

Ive been trying to find data on them..and evidently my stroke damage
wont let me home in on the proper keywords to google them.

I used to have a number of them actually in operation in my parents
home in the late 1960s

Gunner

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."


I found 3 ebay stores that are supposed to carry them,
but they are all out of stock.

I used, "Bulb saver button"

I found this.
http://ucanhealth.com/local/merchand...ght-Bulb-Saver

http://midlightelectric.com/bulbs/ac...ET_ 3996.html

They had them in 1983,
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=2292,5454954

Mikek

On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 06:54:22 -0500, amdx wrote:

On 8/4/2014 1:30 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 4 Aug 2014 04:01:37 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-08-03, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Anyone remember the little buttons that one put in lamp bases to
change the lighting voltage from AC to half wave DC?

Sure! Never used one. I would expect the color of the light to
shift towards orange, as well as the life of the bulb to be
significantly extended.

O.K. They must have been silicon rectifiers, as a stack of
enough selenium plates to handle the reverse voltage would be too thick
for the bulb to properly seat.

Enjoy,
Don.

Ive been trying to find data on them..and evidently my stroke damage
wont let me home in on the proper keywords to google them.

I used to have a number of them actually in operation in my parents
home in the late 1960s

Gunner

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."


I found 3 ebay stores that are supposed to carry them,
but they are all out of stock.

I used, "Bulb saver button"

I found this.
http://ucanhealth.com/local/merchand...ght-Bulb-Saver

http://midlightelectric.com/bulbs/ac...ET_ 3996.html

The one above is a flasher.


They had them in 1983,
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=2292,5454954

Mikek

They had them back in the 60s


--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."

On 8/4/2014 9:39 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 06:54:22 -0500, amdx wrote:

On 8/4/2014 1:30 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 4 Aug 2014 04:01:37 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-08-03, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Anyone remember the little buttons that one put in lamp bases to
change the lighting voltage from AC to half wave DC?

Sure! Never used one. I would expect the color of the light to
shift towards orange, as well as the life of the bulb to be
significantly extended.

O.K. They must have been silicon rectifiers, as a stack of
enough selenium plates to handle the reverse voltage would be too thick
for the bulb to properly seat.

Enjoy,
Don.

Ive been trying to find data on them..and evidently my stroke damage
wont let me home in on the proper keywords to google them.

I used to have a number of them actually in operation in my parents
home in the late 1960s

Gunner

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."


I found 3 ebay stores that are supposed to carry them,
but they are all out of stock.

I used, "Bulb saver button"

I found this.
http://ucanhealth.com/local/merchand...ght-Bulb-Saver

http://midlightelectric.com/bulbs/ac...ET_ 3996.html

The one above is a flasher.

Ok, but isn't the other one what you wanted?
Mikek


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On 8/4/2014 12:14 PM, amdx wrote:
On 8/4/2014 9:39 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 06:54:22 -0500, amdx wrote:

On 8/4/2014 1:30 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 4 Aug 2014 04:01:37 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-08-03, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Anyone remember the little buttons that one put in lamp bases to
change the lighting voltage from AC to half wave DC?

Sure! Never used one. I would expect the color of the light to
shift towards orange, as well as the life of the bulb to be
significantly extended.

O.K. They must have been silicon rectifiers, as a stack of
enough selenium plates to handle the reverse voltage would be too
thick
for the bulb to properly seat.

Enjoy,
Don.


Here's a page that said they were made with a thermistor.
http://www.understandwebsites.com/bu...ernatives.html
Mikek



---
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http://www.avast.com

"amdx" wrote in message ...

On 8/4/2014 12:14 PM, amdx wrote:
On 8/4/2014 9:39 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 06:54:22 -0500, amdx wrote:

On 8/4/2014 1:30 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 4 Aug 2014 04:01:37 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-08-03, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Anyone remember the little buttons that one put in lamp bases to
change the lighting voltage from AC to half wave DC?

Sure! Never used one. I would expect the color of the light to
shift towards orange, as well as the life of the bulb to be
significantly extended.

O.K. They must have been silicon rectifiers, as a stack of
enough selenium plates to handle the reverse voltage would be too
thick
for the bulb to properly seat.

Enjoy,
Don.


Here's a page that said they were made with a thermistor.
http://www.understandwebsites.com/bu...ernatives.html
Mikek

================================================== ==========================
[Ed]

Right. I used to think they were rectifiers, too, until someone told me what
they were. Thermistors are used in conjunction with rectifiers, in switching
power suppliers, for example, but they don't rectify on their own. They're
just bulk resistors whose resistance varies with temperature.

I had one on my porch light for years. It really multiplied bulb life.

--
Ed Huntress

amdx fired this volley in news:lrofd8$fme$1@dont-
email.me:

Here's a page that said they were made with a thermistor.
http://www.understandwebsites.com/bu...ernatives.html
Mikek

There may have been "soft-start" versions of them that were NTC
thermistors; that, alone would have lengthened the life of the bulb,
without dimming it much.

It's been a long time since I saw those, but the ones I remember dimmed
the light a LOT, which makes me think that some of them were diode-based.

The NTC thermistor makes more sense, though. It would have only
dissipated enough energy to keep itself hot.

Lloyd

"amdx" wrote in message
...

Here's a page that said they were made with a thermistor.
http://www.understandwebsites.com/bu...ernatives.html
Mikek

That's the life extender that limits startup surges, but doesn't
significantly dim and yellow the bulb like the diode. They lost
popularity when it was publicized that a bulb uses 5-10 times its
purchase price in electricity so installing a lower power bulb without
the diode was much smarter unless the bulb was hard to reach, like
over the seats in an auditorium.

In theatres where I've worked the house lights were on a dimmer like
the stage lights and we didn't ever run them to full power so we
wouldn't have to climb up to change bulbs. I almost fell onto the seat
backs when the ladder shifted off the stepped floor while I was aiming
a Fresnel and left me clinging to the support pipe.
-jsw

On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 12:50:11 PM UTC-4, jon_banquer wrote:
On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:53:29 AM UTC-7, wrote:

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 8:23:30 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:lr9dim$6fh$1

@dont-email.me:

I'm not convinced of that. They all play the toxic zero-sum self

esteem game but otherwise differ in M.O. and focus.

Yeah, but he seems 'different'. I've never 'met' (web or face) anyone

whose ONLY endeavor in life is to try -ineffectually- to belittle others.

Jon is unique in that respect. He has NOTHING of any redeeming

qualities.. all bad/evil, incompetent, insane... whatever you'd like to

call them.

You are wrong about that, jon pushes people in here to better their accomplishments.

You know you these other kooks in here, can't deny that.

I push people to think for themselves and to be independent thinkers.
This is what I was taught and what I know is expected in better CNC
machining job shops. In good machining job shops, no one is going
to hold your hand and babysit you. This applies to other trades as well.

You do realize that people like Loud are deniers, right?

jon, that's Tea Party lock, stock and barrel. Destroy the environment and everything else with it in the criminal Ronald Reagan tradition.

Folks in here do DEFINITELY mimic groups from the farthest reaches of the right. I remember one of the 24 hour news programs reporting that most Tea Party supporters are "well off" and anti-union.

People in here say things that you could only hear from prison inmates. Really, if half of the people in here were worse than that, it would be very easy to believe, too.

Loud, Terry Coombs, etc. are so dumb that they think you and I are
the same person.

For some reason, cons have that mindset. I don't even care to know why, either.
By the way, the big bad anti-union dastardly right-wing overlord BEFORE the Koch Brothers just keeled-over last week or so - yaaaayyy !!

GUESS WHAT - Scaife died JULY THE FOURTH !!! HA !! HA !! HA !!HAAAAAAA ! ! ! !

(is that a sting for anti-union folks or what !! - WOW !! That one HAD to hurt !!

Anyway, here - read a little about it:

"Decades before David H. and Charles G. Koch bankrolled right-wing causes, Mr. Scaife and Joseph Coors, the beer magnate, were the leading financiers of the conservative crusade of the 1970s and '80s ..."

-- http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/05/us...t-82.html?_r=0

On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 23:30:13 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On 4 Aug 2014 04:01:37 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-08-03, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Anyone remember the little buttons that one put in lamp bases to
change the lighting voltage from AC to half wave DC?

Sure! Never used one. I would expect the color of the light to
shift towards orange, as well as the life of the bulb to be
significantly extended.

O.K. They must have been silicon rectifiers, as a stack of
enough selenium plates to handle the reverse voltage would be too thick
for the bulb to properly seat.

Enjoy,
Don.

Ive been trying to find data on them..and evidently my stroke damage
wont let me home in on the proper keywords to google them.

I used to have a number of them actually in operation in my parents
home in the late 1960s

The little blue buttons? Weren't they called thermistors?
googling...got it!
http://www.understandwebsites.com/bu...ernatives.html

--
Aim for success, not perfection. Never give up your right
to be wrong, because then you will lose the ability to
learn new things and move forward with your life.
-- Dr. David M. Burns

On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 12:14:01 -0500, amdx wrote:

On 8/4/2014 9:39 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 06:54:22 -0500, amdx wrote:

On 8/4/2014 1:30 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 4 Aug 2014 04:01:37 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-08-03, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Anyone remember the little buttons that one put in lamp bases to
change the lighting voltage from AC to half wave DC?

Sure! Never used one. I would expect the color of the light to
shift towards orange, as well as the life of the bulb to be
significantly extended.

O.K. They must have been silicon rectifiers, as a stack of
enough selenium plates to handle the reverse voltage would be too thick
for the bulb to properly seat.

Enjoy,
Don.

Ive been trying to find data on them..and evidently my stroke damage
wont let me home in on the proper keywords to google them.

I used to have a number of them actually in operation in my parents
home in the late 1960s

Gunner

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."


I found 3 ebay stores that are supposed to carry them,
but they are all out of stock.

I used, "Bulb saver button"

I found this.
http://ucanhealth.com/local/merchand...ght-Bulb-Saver

http://midlightelectric.com/bulbs/ac...ET_ 3996.html

The one above is a flasher.

Ok, but isn't the other one what you wanted?
Mikek

Oh yes indeed and thank you for finding them!!

Gunner



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http://www.avast.com

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."