On 2/9/2014 10:18 PM, Bob Lowe wrote:
replying to Jim Wilkins , Bob Lowe wrote:
muratlanne wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
... I assumed that
'billet' meant the part had been machined from bar stock instead of
stamped or forged. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camshaft jsw


Thanks for all of the info and where to find more...I worked all of my
life in the aircraft field but never with nuts and bolts...I was always in
the electronics part. We did get retrofit 'kits' sometimes but someone
else made them up. The first plane I flew in was a Tri Motored Ford and
the last was a Stearman PT-17 with 70 years in between. My first
operation squadron in the Air Force was made up of B-17's and C-47's and
after that since 66 I worked for NAVAIR and NAESU, sorry for the acronyms.
I don't know about the proper use of Billet 'designation' but I do know
when I worked at the Douglas, El Segundo Plant, truck loads of aluminum
alloy 'billets' would come in every day. I just looked in a reference
book and it says, under Aluminum Types: Class T6, Solution heat-treated
and then artificially aged. Common class. Now I have to find out what is
'artificially aged'. Is this some kind of freezing and warming process?



Haven't read all this yet. So maybe helpful, maybe not.
But it ought to keep you out of trouble for a while...




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy

http://www.gayston.com/HeatTreating.html

http://vacaero.com/information-resources/industrial-heating-magazine-articles/825-understanding-quenchants-and-their-effects.html

On 2/9/2014 9:27 PM, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:34:50 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:32:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:10:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:


You could have argued that "T-6" was actually a marine alloy as it is,

so often, used to designate the masts and spars of sail boats :-)



Cheers,



John B.

You need to refresh your memory on aluminum alloys. As I remember all
the marine alloys are five thousand and something.

Dan
But they will be used in the T6 condition - which is about the
hardest AND toughest an aluminum alloy can be - Solution Heat trested
and artificially aged..

But not applicable to the 5xxx alloys, which are strengthened by cold
working, not heat treating.


5xxx alloys are used for structural items?
I never heard of that before.

Tanks, fairings, stuff like that that is usually deep formed.

But not for spars, masts, stressed skins, etc.

replying to Erik , Bob Lowe wrote:
spam wrote:

Yes, agreed. That 'Aircraft Quality' statement always equates to some
snake oil marketer peddling off crap.
Erik


Well Erik, I started this thread because I didn't know what was meant by
'Aircraft Quality', but now I think I have come to a conclusion at least
to my satisfaction but not to all others. I shall not wish to be
argumentative nor just copy and paste statements - they are only
statements by others. This is just my opinion, okay....Aircraft Spruce &
Specially Co. for example, sells 'Aircraft Quality' only hardware for ones
aircraft and most other aircraft parts suppliers do as well, that I saw.
I don't think it, "... always equates to some snake oil marketer peddling
off crap." Now I believes that when they say 'Aircraft Quality' they
mean that they sell only AN (Air Force-Navy), MS (Military Standard) and
NAS (?),,I forget...and not something one may buy at a regular hardware
store. It is not their fault that we don't know what is the 'standard' in
the industry, this be for aircraft parts sales....'Aircraft Quality'.
Another thing I 'read' 'stated, is that the EAA type home built aircraft
builder may use any old bolt, yes an el cheapo made in China bolt and the
FAA inspector will sign off the safety inspection as okay and let you fly
it...and take other passengers, sounds strange huh? I would like to
verify this. I have dealt with those people in Oklahoma City and I don't
think they are up to par.
I have seen this 'Aircraft Quality' thing kicked around and now I see it
very clearly.

Bob Lowe

--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 13:53:14 -0800, Erik
wrote:

snip
Yes, agreed. That 'Aircraft Quality' statement always equates to some
snake oil marketer peddling off crap.
-------------
Right up there with surgical stainless


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 19:29:21 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
.. .
And, I've always wondered about the "billet" designation. The advert
writer could have equally used "ingot" which has, sort of, an
association with gold bars :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

I assumed that 'billet' meant the part had been machined from bar
stock instead of stamped or forged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camshaft

jsw
\

Probably does.... and ignores that forgings are usually stronger then
something chopped out of bar stock :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 04:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to Jim Wilkins , Bob Lowe wrote:
muratlanne wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
...
I assumed that 'billet' meant the part had been machined from bar
stock instead of stamped or forged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camshaft
jsw


Thanks for all of the info and where to find more...I worked all of my
life in the aircraft field but never with nuts and bolts...I was always in
the electronics part. We did get retrofit 'kits' sometimes but someone
else made them up. The first plane I flew in was a Tri Motored Ford and
the last was a Stearman PT-17 with 70 years in between. My first
operation squadron in the Air Force was made up of B-17's and C-47's and
after that since 66 I worked for NAVAIR and NAESU, sorry for the acronyms.
I don't know about the proper use of Billet 'designation' but I do know
when I worked at the Douglas, El Segundo Plant, truck loads of aluminum
alloy 'billets' would come in every day. I just looked in a reference
book and it says, under Aluminum Types: Class T6, Solution heat-treated
and then artificially aged. Common class. Now I have to find out what is
'artificially aged'. Is this some kind of freezing and warming process?

Actually T-6 is a level of hardening and says nothing about the
material itself.

for example:
2024 - T6 - minimum tensile strength 61,900 psi
6061 - T6 - 42,000 psi
7075 - T6 - 78,000 psi

Some materials age harden. In the case of aluminum you solution heat
treat it - heat it up, let it heat soak for a period and then cool it
very quickly. Subsequent to this the aluminum will continue to harden
for some period, quite a long period in some cases. By holding it at
an elevated temperature the ageing process takes place much quicker.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:34:50 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:32:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:10:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:


You could have argued that "T-6" was actually a marine alloy as it is,

so often, used to designate the masts and spars of sail boats :-)



Cheers,



John B.

You need to refresh your memory on aluminum alloys. As I remember all the marine alloys are five thousand and something.

Dan
But they will be used in the T6 condition - which is about the
hardest AND toughest an aluminum alloy can be - Solution Heat trested
and artificially aged..

A substantial amount of the high performance sailboat masts and spars
are 6061, usually marked "T6" :-) I've no idea why as 5052 and 6061
are roughly the same strength so I assume it has something to do with
availability or cost.

--
Cheers,

John B.

"John B." wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 19:29:21 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
"John B." wrote in message
. ..
And, I've always wondered about the "billet" designation. The
advert
writer could have equally used "ingot" which has, sort of, an
association with gold bars :-)
John B.

I assumed that 'billet' meant the part had been machined from bar
stock instead of stamped or forged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camshaft
jsw

Probably does.... and ignores that forgings are usually stronger
then
something chopped out of bar stock :-)
John B.

Yep. If the strength of something I make really matters I proof test
it. Small hardware store nuts and bolts are fairly easy to break with
a 1/2" torque wrench and 6 point sockets. Some stainless hardware I've
bought has been really soft, and I've abandoned 1/4" lag screws for
5/16" because they break too often when unscrewed from predrilled
holes in oak.
jsw

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 22:27:17 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:34:50 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:32:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:10:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:


You could have argued that "T-6" was actually a marine alloy as it is,

so often, used to designate the masts and spars of sail boats :-)



Cheers,



John B.

You need to refresh your memory on aluminum alloys. As I remember all the marine alloys are five thousand and something.

Dan
But they will be used in the T6 condition - which is about the
hardest AND toughest an aluminum alloy can be - Solution Heat trested
and artificially aged..

But not applicable to the 5xxx alloys, which are strengthened by cold
working, not heat treating.
Which means they can NOT be T6. 1XXX, 3XXX and 5XXX are not heat
treatable. 5XXX is a Magnesium alloy and is weldable. 1XXX are "pure"
aluminum, 3XXX are Manganese alloys.
The 6XXX are heat treatable, weladable magnesium silicone alloys - the
silicone allows the heat treating.(forms magnesium silicide wich is
"disolved" into the metal by solution heat treating.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:16:11 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 19:29:21 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
. ..
And, I've always wondered about the "billet" designation. The advert
writer could have equally used "ingot" which has, sort of, an
association with gold bars :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

I assumed that 'billet' meant the part had been machined from bar
stock instead of stamped or forged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camshaft

jsw
\

Probably does.... and ignores that forgings are usually stronger then
something chopped out of bar stock :-)
But "billet" is not a "cast" block. Billet is technically a "forged"
block - with the close grain structure associated with forged metal.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:03:33 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 19:29:21 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
"John B." wrote in message
...
And, I've always wondered about the "billet" designation. The
advert
writer could have equally used "ingot" which has, sort of, an
association with gold bars :-)
John B.

I assumed that 'billet' meant the part had been machined from bar
stock instead of stamped or forged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camshaft
jsw

Probably does.... and ignores that forgings are usually stronger
then
something chopped out of bar stock :-)
John B.

Yep. If the strength of something I make really matters I proof test
it. Small hardware store nuts and bolts are fairly easy to break with
a 1/2" torque wrench and 6 point sockets. Some stainless hardware I've
bought has been really soft, and I've abandoned 1/4" lag screws for
5/16" because they break too often when unscrewed from predrilled
holes in oak.

I hope you're waxing any hardware going into hardwood. It extends its
lifetime a minimum of 100%.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 22:59:03 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 2/9/2014 9:27 PM, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:34:50 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:32:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:10:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:


You could have argued that "T-6" was actually a marine alloy as it is,

so often, used to designate the masts and spars of sail boats :-)



Cheers,



John B.

You need to refresh your memory on aluminum alloys. As I remember all
the marine alloys are five thousand and something.

Dan
But they will be used in the T6 condition - which is about the
hardest AND toughest an aluminum alloy can be - Solution Heat trested
and artificially aged..

But not applicable to the 5xxx alloys, which are strengthened by cold
working, not heat treating.


5xxx alloys are used for structural items?
I never heard of that before.

Tanks, fairings, stuff like that that is usually deep formed.

But not for spars, masts, stressed skins, etc.

You're reading something I didn't say, I only said that 5xxx alloys
are not heat-treatable. See my other post re spar extrusions and 6xxx
aluminums..

--
Ned Simmons

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:16:11 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:34:50 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:32:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:10:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:


You could have argued that "T-6" was actually a marine alloy as it is,

so often, used to designate the masts and spars of sail boats :-)



Cheers,



John B.

You need to refresh your memory on aluminum alloys. As I remember all the marine alloys are five thousand and something.

Dan
But they will be used in the T6 condition - which is about the
hardest AND toughest an aluminum alloy can be - Solution Heat trested
and artificially aged..

A substantial amount of the high performance sailboat masts and spars
are 6061, usually marked "T6" :-) I've no idea why as 5052 and 6061
are roughly the same strength so I assume it has something to do with
availability or cost.


My guess is strength after welding and extrudability. 6061 will
naturally reharden after welding, though not to its pre-welded T6
condition. 5052 will remain more or less annealed near any welds.

Extrudability:
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/dok... uminum_alloys

--
Ned Simmons

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:18:02 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 22:27:17 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:34:50 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:32:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:10:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:


You could have argued that "T-6" was actually a marine alloy as it is,

so often, used to designate the masts and spars of sail boats :-)



Cheers,



John B.

You need to refresh your memory on aluminum alloys. As I remember all the marine alloys are five thousand and something.

Dan
But they will be used in the T6 condition - which is about the
hardest AND toughest an aluminum alloy can be - Solution Heat trested
and artificially aged..

But not applicable to the 5xxx alloys, which are strengthened by cold
working, not heat treating.
Which means they can NOT be T6. 1XXX, 3XXX and 5XXX are not heat
treatable. 5XXX is a Magnesium alloy and is weldable. 1XXX are "pure"
aluminum, 3XXX are Manganese alloys.
The 6XXX are heat treatable, weladable magnesium silicone alloys - the
silicone allows the heat treating.(forms magnesium silicide wich is
"disolved" into the metal by solution heat treating.

Ain't that what I said?

--
Ned Simmons

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
..and I've abandoned 1/4" lag screws for
5/16" because they break too often when unscrewed from predrilled
holes in oak.

I hope you're waxing any hardware going into hardwood. It extends
its
lifetime a minimum of 100%.

I sprayed LPS-3, which dries to a waxy film, into the boxes of lag
screws, and I predrill oak and pressure-treated SYP for the shank and
threads, somewhat undersized since the fasteners need to withstand an
estimated half ton of snow and ice on the roof. . AFAICT the hard wood
scours off some of the zinc, so wax doesn't really have a chance.

I stopped waxing furniture screws because it interferes with staining.
I spent this morning sanding off a misguided amateur puttying and
staining job in the club's bathroom. On the way home I raided HD's
rack of unpretty PT 4x4's at 70% off. The firewood it will support
doesn't care what it looks like.

jsw

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

A substantial amount of the high performance sailboat masts and spars
are 6061, usually marked "T6" :-) I've no idea why as 5052 and 6061
are roughly the same strength so I assume it has something to do with
availability or cost.

--
Cheers,
John B.


Again, just my opinion. When I first read that some one said that T6 was
not a proper 'grade' for aluminum, I thought,wait a minute...I have heard
many times things like, "Use T6" or "Get me some T6" or "T6 will do just
fine." We know that that the full Identification number of a metal alloy
is the chemical make-up of the alloy and of course 6061 is a common one.
If someone says 'use T6', and knows what he is talking about, he is saying
that I don't really care just what the alloy type or alloy number it is,
just that the 'T6' is tough enough and suitable for the job and some types
are not adaptable for T6 hardening so he is covered. If 6061-T6 is
specified, they are just being more specific, which in my opinion is okay,
but not required in some circumstances. As for the 5052 and 6061 alloys
having about the same strengths, I would think that there are many
aluminum alloys that have similar strengths but have other different
properties, such as corrosive resistance, and as you say, cost and
availability could be major factors. One time in LA I bought a boat and
after a year or so I noticed that some of the aluminum hardware had turned
to a white dust and I bought some 'boat' grade stainless as replacements.
Maybe the 'boat grade' could have been more specific of course.
And as for the Aluminum Billets can not be of cast as someone said...I
don't believe this....As far as I am concerned, Cast Aluminum Billets have
been made since Aluminum has been used - All billets are not created
equal. A lot of people get too hung-up on semantics and specifics....That
may or 'may not' be correct. Again, just the way I see things. After a
little crash-course on 'Aircraft Quality', I am okay, not great, but okay.
Thanks.

Bob Lowe

--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

A substantial amount of the high performance sailboat masts and spars
are 6061, usually marked "T6" :-) I've no idea why as 5052 and 6061
are roughly the same strength so I assume it has something to do with
availability or cost.

--
Cheers,
John B.


Again, just my opinion. When I first read that some one said that T6 was
not a proper 'grade' for aluminum, I thought,wait a minute...I have heard
many times things like, "Use T6" or "Get me some T6" or "T6 will do just
fine." We know that that the full Identification number of a metal alloy
is the chemical make-up of the alloy and of course 6061 is a common one.
If someone says 'use T6', and knows what he is talking about, he is saying
that I don't really care just what the alloy type or alloy number it is,
just that the 'T6' is tough enough and suitable for the job and some types
are not adaptable for T6 hardening so he is covered.

Or he's operating in a context where T6 may assume a specific family
of alloys. For example, you're not likely to find 7075 or 2024 in a
marine fabricator's shop where T6 plate would almost cetainly mean
6061.

There's a big difference in the mechanical properties of alloys in the
T6 condition, and T6 is not enough to specify the strength of a piece
of stock. The yield and tensile of 7075-T6 is almost twice that of
6061-T6.

--
Ned Simmons

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 13:05:22 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
..and I've abandoned 1/4" lag screws for
5/16" because they break too often when unscrewed from predrilled
holes in oak.

I hope you're waxing any hardware going into hardwood. It extends
its
lifetime a minimum of 100%.

I sprayed LPS-3, which dries to a waxy film, into the boxes of lag
screws, and I predrill oak and pressure-treated SYP for the shank and
threads, somewhat undersized since the fasteners need to withstand an
estimated half ton of snow and ice on the roof. . AFAICT the hard wood
scours off some of the zinc, so wax doesn't really have a chance.

Are you using tapered drillbits? If you're scouring the galv off it
on the way in, the hardware won't last in PT, anyway. LPS-3 should be
good.


I stopped waxing furniture screws because it interferes with staining.

Ewwwwwwwwwwwww! Wood shouldn't be stained. Use a clearcoat, fer
Crom's sake! /purist But if you must stain, finish the wood first,
then drill and assemble. Pieces of carpet on your drillpress are
friendly to prefinished furniture components.


I spent this morning sanding off a misguided amateur puttying and
staining job in the club's bathroom. On the way home I raided HD's
rack of unpretty PT 4x4's at 70% off. The firewood it will support
doesn't care what it looks like.

Funny, that.


--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:16:51 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:16:11 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:34:50 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:32:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:10:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:


You could have argued that "T-6" was actually a marine alloy as it is,

so often, used to designate the masts and spars of sail boats :-)



Cheers,



John B.

You need to refresh your memory on aluminum alloys. As I remember all the marine alloys are five thousand and something.

Dan
But they will be used in the T6 condition - which is about the
hardest AND toughest an aluminum alloy can be - Solution Heat trested
and artificially aged..

A substantial amount of the high performance sailboat masts and spars
are 6061, usually marked "T6" :-) I've no idea why as 5052 and 6061
are roughly the same strength so I assume it has something to do with
availability or cost.


My guess is strength after welding and extrudability. 6061 will
naturally reharden after welding, though not to its pre-welded T6
condition. 5052 will remain more or less annealed near any welds.

Extrudability:
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/dok... uminum_alloys


Perhaps. There is usually a certain amount of welding on masts and
spars, if only to attach the end fittings, and I suspect that it is
unlikely that every shop has a forty or fifty foot heat treating oven
;-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

A substantial amount of the high performance sailboat masts and spars
are 6061, usually marked "T6" :-) I've no idea why as 5052 and 6061
are roughly the same strength so I assume it has something to do with
availability or cost.

--
Cheers,
John B.


Again, just my opinion. When I first read that some one said that T6 was
not a proper 'grade' for aluminum, I thought,wait a minute...I have heard
many times things like, "Use T6" or "Get me some T6" or "T6 will do just
fine."

One time, I was in N. Louisiana, a bloke came in the shop to have
something made, and told me that he wanted it made from "good iron",
when I asked him "what kind of good iron do you mean", he replied
"Like a Ford rear axle". Another chap (from the fire department) came
in, wanted a "fat thread" bolt. When I said, "fat thread?" he
explained that some bolts have fat threads and some have skinny
threads...

What people ask for is not always an accurate description... :-)





We know that that the full Identification number of a metal alloy
is the chemical make-up of the alloy and of course 6061 is a common one.
If someone says 'use T6', and knows what he is talking about, he is saying
that I don't really care just what the alloy type or alloy number it is,
just that the 'T6' is tough enough and suitable for the job and some types
are not adaptable for T6 hardening so he is covered. If 6061-T6 is
specified, they are just being more specific, which in my opinion is okay,
but not required in some circumstances. As for the 5052 and 6061 alloys
having about the same strengths, I would think that there are many
aluminum alloys that have similar strengths but have other different
properties, such as corrosive resistance, and as you say, cost and
availability could be major factors. One time in LA I bought a boat and
after a year or so I noticed that some of the aluminum hardware had turned
to a white dust and I bought some 'boat' grade stainless as replacements.
Maybe the 'boat grade' could have been more specific of course.
And as for the Aluminum Billets can not be of cast as someone said...I
don't believe this....As far as I am concerned, Cast Aluminum Billets have
been made since Aluminum has been used - All billets are not created
equal. A lot of people get too hung-up on semantics and specifics....That
may or 'may not' be correct. Again, just the way I see things. After a
little crash-course on 'Aircraft Quality', I am okay, not great, but okay.
Thanks.

Bob Lowe
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

A substantial amount of the high performance sailboat masts and spars
are 6061, usually marked "T6" :-) I've no idea why as 5052 and 6061
are roughly the same strength so I assume it has something to do with
availability or cost.

--
Cheers,
John B.


Again, just my opinion. When I first read that some one said that T6 was
not a proper 'grade' for aluminum, I thought,wait a minute...I have heard
many times things like, "Use T6" or "Get me some T6" or "T6 will do just
fine." We know that that the full Identification number of a metal alloy
is the chemical make-up of the alloy and of course 6061 is a common one.
If someone says 'use T6', and knows what he is talking about, he is saying
that I don't really care just what the alloy type or alloy number it is,
just that the 'T6' is tough enough and suitable for the job and some types
are not adaptable for T6 hardening so he is covered. If 6061-T6 is
specified, they are just being more specific, which in my opinion is okay,
but not required in some circumstances. As for the 5052 and 6061 alloys
having about the same strengths, I would think that there are many
aluminum alloys that have similar strengths but have other different
properties, such as corrosive resistance, and as you say, cost and
availability could be major factors. One time in LA I bought a boat and
after a year or so I noticed that some of the aluminum hardware had turned
to a white dust and I bought some 'boat' grade stainless as replacements.
Maybe the 'boat grade' could have been more specific of course.
And as for the Aluminum Billets can not be of cast as someone said...I
don't believe this....As far as I am concerned, Cast Aluminum Billets have
been made since Aluminum has been used - All billets are not created
equal. A lot of people get too hung-up on semantics and specifics....That
may or 'may not' be correct. Again, just the way I see things. After a
little crash-course on 'Aircraft Quality', I am okay, not great, but okay.
Thanks.

Bob Lowe

Well, your boat aluminum turning to white powder, that is quite common
as while aluminum does form a thin layer of aluminum oxide which
protects it, to some extent, from corrosion it doesn't seem to work in
conjunction with the stainless screws and such that is used to hold
the aluminum to the boat :-)

As for "boat grade" stainless, I will say that I've never seen that
designation. You go to a chandlery and a nice shiny fitting is laying
there, it probably doesn't have a mark on it. It might be shiny silver
or shiny gold colored, but I've never seen one with a stamp, "Made
from boat stainless". Heck, they aren't even stamped "hinge" although
that is obviously what they are :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/10/2014 7:40 PM, John B. wrote:


My guess is strength after welding and extrudability. 6061 will
naturally reharden after welding, though not to its pre-welded T6
condition. 5052 will remain more or less annealed near any welds.

Extrudability:
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/dok... uminum_alloys


Perhaps. There is usually a certain amount of welding on masts and
spars, if only to attach the end fittings, and I suspect that it is
unlikely that every shop has a forty or fifty foot heat treating oven
;-)

None of my spars have ever been welded.
The spreader fittings, mast head crane. etc were always bolted.

Although there are some specialty masts that are tapered and thus welded.

No, I suspect the reason for 6061-T6 is because the spars are almost
always extruded.

And the stable temper of T6...

And the difference in tensile strength!
5052 yields at 28k
6061 yields at 40k



GENERAL ALUMINUM INFORMATION
1100
This grade is commercially pure aluminum. It is soft and ductile and has
excellent workability. It is ideal for applications involving intricate
forming because it work hardens more slowly than other alloys. It is the
most weldable of aluminum alloys, by any method. It is non
heat-treatable. It has excellent resistance to corrosion and is widely
used in the chemical and food processing industries. It responds well to
decorative finishes which make it suitable for giftware.

2011
This is the most free-machining of the common aluminum alloys. It also
has excellent mechanical properties. Thus, it is widely used for
automatic screw machine products in parts requiring extensive machining.

2014 & 2017
The 2017 alloy combines excellent machinability and high strength with
the result that it is one of the most widely used alloys for automatic
screw machine work. It is a tough, ductile alloy suitable for heavy-duty
structural parts. Its strength is slightly less than that of 2014.

2024
This is one of the best known of the high strength aluminum alloys. With
its high strength and excellent fatigue resistance, it is used to
advantage on structures and parts where good strength-to-weight ratio is
desired. It is readily machined to a high finish. It is readily formed
in the annealed condition and may be subsequently heat treated. Arc or
gas welding is generally not recommended, although this alloy may be
spot, seam or flash welded. Since corrosion resistance is relatively
low, 2024 is commonly used with an anodized finish or in clad form
(“Alclad”) with a thin surface layer of high purity aluminum.
Applications: aircraft structural components, aircraft fittings,
hardware, truck wheels and parts for the transportation industry.

3003
This is the most widely used of all aluminum alloys. It is essentially
commercially pure aluminum with the addition of manganese which
increases the strength some 20% over the 1100 grade. Thus, it has all
the excellent characteristics of 1100 with higher strength. It has
excellent corrosion resistance. It has excellent workability and it may
be deep drawn or spun, welded or brazed. It is non heat treatable.
Applications: cooking utensils, decorative trim, awnings, siding,
storage tanks, chemical equipment.

5005
This alloy is generally considered to be an improved version of 3003. It
has the same general mechanical properties as 3003 but appears to stand
up better in actual service. It is readily workable. It can be deep
drawn or spun, welded or brazed. It has excellent corrosion resistance.
It is non heat-treatable. It is well suited for anodizing and has less
tendency to streak or discolor. Applications same as 3003.

5052
This is the highest strength alloy of the more common non heat-treatable
grades. Fatigue strength is higher than most aluminum alloys.In addition
this grade has particularly good resistance to marine atmosphere and
salt water corrosion. It has excellent workability. It may be drawn or
formed into intricate shapes and its slightly greater strength in the
annealed condition minimizes tearing that occurs in 1100 and 3003.
Applications: Used in a wide variety of applications from aircraft
components to home appliances, marine and transportation industry parts,
heavy duty cooking utensils and equipment for bulk processing of food.

5083 & 5086
For many years there has been a need for aluminum sheet and plate alloys
that would offer, for high strength welded applications, several
distinct benefits over such alloys as 5052 and 6061. Some of the
benefits fabricators have been seeking are greater design efficiency,
better welding characteristics, good forming properties, excellent
resistance to corrosion and the same economy as in other non
heat-treatable alloys. Metallurgical research has developed 5083 and
5086 as superior weldable alloys which fill these needs. Both alloys
have virtually the same characteristics with 5083 having slightly higher
mechanical properties due to the increased manganese content over 5086.
Applications: unfired pressure vessels, missile containers, heavy-duty
truck and trailer assemblies, boat hulls and superstructures.

6061
This is the least expensive and most versatile of the heat-treatable
aluminum alloys. It has most of the good qualities of aluminum. It
offers a range of good mechanical properties and good corrosion
resistance. It can be fabricated by most of the commonly used
techniques. In the annealed condition it has good workability. In the T4
condition fairly severe forming operations may be accomplished. The full
T6 properties may be obtained by artificial aging. It is welded by all
methods and can be furnace brazed. It is available in the clad form
(“Alclad”) with a thin surface layer of high purity aluminum to improve
both appearance and corrosion resistance. Applications: This grade is
used for a wide variety of products and applications from truck bodies
and frames to screw machine parts and structural components. 6061 is
used where appearance and better corrosion resistance with good strength
are required.

6063
This grade is commonly referred to as the architectural alloy. It was
developed as an extrusion alloy with relatively high tensile properties,
excellent finishing characteristics and a high degree of resistance to
corrosion. This alloy is most often found in various interior and
exterior architectural applications, such as windows, doors, store
fronts and assorted trim items. It is the alloy best suited for
anodizing applications - either plain or in a variety of colors.

7075
This is one of the highest strength aluminum alloys available. Its
strength-to weight ratio is excellent and it is ideally used for highly
stressed parts. It may be formed in the annealed condition and
subsequently heat treated. Spot or flash welding can be used, although
arc and gas welding are not recommended. It is available in the clad
(“Alclad”) form to improve the corrosion resistance with the over-all
high strength being only moderately affected. Applications: Used where
highest strength is needed.

And

ALUMINUM TEMPER DESIGNATIONS
Temper designations of wrought aluminum alloys consist of suffixes to
the numeric alloy designations. For example, in 3003-H14, 3003 denotes
the alloy and “H14” denotes the temper, or degree of hardness. The
temper designation also reveals the method by which the hardness was
obtained. Temper designations differ between non heat-treatable alloys
and heat-treatable alloys. and their meanings are given below:

Non Heat-Treatable Alloys

The letter “H” is always followed by 2 or 3 digits. The first digit
indicates the particular method used to obtain the temper. as follows:

— Hl means strain hardened only.

— H2 means strain hardened, then partially annealed.

— H3 means strain hardened, then stabilized.

The temper is indicated by the second digit as follows:

2 1/4 hard

4 I/2 hard

6 3/4 hard

8 full hard

9 extra hard

Added digits indicate modification of standard practice.

Heat-Treatable Alloys

-F As fabricated

-O Annealed

-T Heat treated

The letter “T” is always followed by one or more digits. These digits
indicate the method used to produce the stable tempers, as follows:

-T3 Solution heat treated, then cold worked.

-T351 Solution heat treated, stress-relieved stretched, then cold
worked.

-T36 Solution heat treated, then cold worked (controlled).

-T4 Solution heat treated, then naturally aged.

-T451 Solution heat treated, then stress relieved stretched.

-T5 Artificially aged only.

-T6 Solution heat treated, then artificially aged.

-T61 Solution heat treated (boiling water quench), then
artificially aged.

-T651 Solution heat treated, stress-relieved stretched, then
artificially aged (precipitation heat treatment).

-T652 Solution heat treated, stress relieved by compression. then
artificially aged.

-T7 Solution heat treated, then stabilized.

-T8 Solution heat treated, cold worked, then artificially aged.

-T81 Solution heat treated, cold worked (controlled), then
artificially aged.

-T851 Solution heat treated, cold worked, stress-relieved
stretched, then artificially aged.

-T9 Solution heat treated, artificially aged, then cold worked.

-T10 Artificially aged, then cold worked.

Added digits indicate modification of standard practice.

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
Well, your boat aluminum turning to white powder, that is quite common
as while aluminum does form a thin layer of aluminum oxide which
protects it, to some extent, from corrosion it doesn't seem to work in
conjunction with the stainless screws and such that is used to hold
the aluminum to the boat :-)
As for "boat grade" stainless, I will say that I've never seen that
designation. You go to a chandlery and a nice shiny fitting is laying
there, it probably doesn't have a mark on it. It might be shiny silver
or shiny gold colored, but I've never seen one with a stamp, "Made
from boat stainless". Heck, they aren't even stamped "hinge" although
that is obviously what they are :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.


Oh no John, I didn't mean to imply there was really such a grade as 'Boat
Grade'. These were just some stainless parts sold at a boat shop - It was
just much better than aluminum. Yes, aluminum almost immediately oxidizes
but as you say is very thin and salty air can get right on through that.
And these were probable the cheapest parts available as well. And as I
remember I never bothered to wash it afterwards - this would have helped
greatly of course.

Thanks,
Bob Lowe


--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 20:11:37 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 2/10/2014 7:40 PM, John B. wrote:


My guess is strength after welding and extrudability. 6061 will
naturally reharden after welding, though not to its pre-welded T6
condition. 5052 will remain more or less annealed near any welds.

Extrudability:
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/dok... uminum_alloys


Perhaps. There is usually a certain amount of welding on masts and
spars, if only to attach the end fittings, and I suspect that it is
unlikely that every shop has a forty or fifty foot heat treating oven
;-)

None of my spars have ever been welded.
The spreader fittings, mast head crane. etc were always bolted.

Although there are some specialty masts that are tapered and thus welded.


Not really "specialty". Quite a few masts on, say 40+ foot boats are
tapered by cutting and welding. My last boat, for example. 42 ft. deck
stepped with about 25% of the top tapered. Partially I think to make
more room for the jib furler. The spreader brackets were also welded
to the mast, as was a bracket for the steaming light.

No, I suspect the reason for 6061-T6 is because the spars are almost
always extruded.

And the stable temper of T6...

And the difference in tensile strength!
5052 yields at 28k
6061 yields at 40k



GENERAL ALUMINUM INFORMATION
1100
This grade is commercially pure aluminum. It is soft and ductile and has
excellent workability. It is ideal for applications involving intricate
forming because it work hardens more slowly than other alloys. It is the
most weldable of aluminum alloys, by any method. It is non
heat-treatable. It has excellent resistance to corrosion and is widely
used in the chemical and food processing industries. It responds well to
decorative finishes which make it suitable for giftware.

2011
This is the most free-machining of the common aluminum alloys. It also
has excellent mechanical properties. Thus, it is widely used for
automatic screw machine products in parts requiring extensive machining.

2014 & 2017
The 2017 alloy combines excellent machinability and high strength with
the result that it is one of the most widely used alloys for automatic
screw machine work. It is a tough, ductile alloy suitable for heavy-duty
structural parts. Its strength is slightly less than that of 2014.

2024
This is one of the best known of the high strength aluminum alloys. With
its high strength and excellent fatigue resistance, it is used to
advantage on structures and parts where good strength-to-weight ratio is
desired. It is readily machined to a high finish. It is readily formed
in the annealed condition and may be subsequently heat treated. Arc or
gas welding is generally not recommended, although this alloy may be
spot, seam or flash welded. Since corrosion resistance is relatively
low, 2024 is commonly used with an anodized finish or in clad form
(“Alclad”) with a thin surface layer of high purity aluminum.
Applications: aircraft structural components, aircraft fittings,
hardware, truck wheels and parts for the transportation industry.

3003
This is the most widely used of all aluminum alloys. It is essentially
commercially pure aluminum with the addition of manganese which
increases the strength some 20% over the 1100 grade. Thus, it has all
the excellent characteristics of 1100 with higher strength. It has
excellent corrosion resistance. It has excellent workability and it may
be deep drawn or spun, welded or brazed. It is non heat treatable.
Applications: cooking utensils, decorative trim, awnings, siding,
storage tanks, chemical equipment.

5005
This alloy is generally considered to be an improved version of 3003. It
has the same general mechanical properties as 3003 but appears to stand
up better in actual service. It is readily workable. It can be deep
drawn or spun, welded or brazed. It has excellent corrosion resistance.
It is non heat-treatable. It is well suited for anodizing and has less
tendency to streak or discolor. Applications same as 3003.

5052
This is the highest strength alloy of the more common non heat-treatable
grades. Fatigue strength is higher than most aluminum alloys.In addition
this grade has particularly good resistance to marine atmosphere and
salt water corrosion. It has excellent workability. It may be drawn or
formed into intricate shapes and its slightly greater strength in the
annealed condition minimizes tearing that occurs in 1100 and 3003.
Applications: Used in a wide variety of applications from aircraft
components to home appliances, marine and transportation industry parts,
heavy duty cooking utensils and equipment for bulk processing of food.

5083 & 5086
For many years there has been a need for aluminum sheet and plate alloys
that would offer, for high strength welded applications, several
distinct benefits over such alloys as 5052 and 6061. Some of the
benefits fabricators have been seeking are greater design efficiency,
better welding characteristics, good forming properties, excellent
resistance to corrosion and the same economy as in other non
heat-treatable alloys. Metallurgical research has developed 5083 and
5086 as superior weldable alloys which fill these needs. Both alloys
have virtually the same characteristics with 5083 having slightly higher
mechanical properties due to the increased manganese content over 5086.
Applications: unfired pressure vessels, missile containers, heavy-duty
truck and trailer assemblies, boat hulls and superstructures.

6061
This is the least expensive and most versatile of the heat-treatable
aluminum alloys. It has most of the good qualities of aluminum. It
offers a range of good mechanical properties and good corrosion
resistance. It can be fabricated by most of the commonly used
techniques. In the annealed condition it has good workability. In the T4
condition fairly severe forming operations may be accomplished. The full
T6 properties may be obtained by artificial aging. It is welded by all
methods and can be furnace brazed. It is available in the clad form
(“Alclad”) with a thin surface layer of high purity aluminum to improve
both appearance and corrosion resistance. Applications: This grade is
used for a wide variety of products and applications from truck bodies
and frames to screw machine parts and structural components. 6061 is
used where appearance and better corrosion resistance with good strength
are required.

6063
This grade is commonly referred to as the architectural alloy. It was
developed as an extrusion alloy with relatively high tensile properties,
excellent finishing characteristics and a high degree of resistance to
corrosion. This alloy is most often found in various interior and
exterior architectural applications, such as windows, doors, store
fronts and assorted trim items. It is the alloy best suited for
anodizing applications - either plain or in a variety of colors.

7075
This is one of the highest strength aluminum alloys available. Its
strength-to weight ratio is excellent and it is ideally used for highly
stressed parts. It may be formed in the annealed condition and
subsequently heat treated. Spot or flash welding can be used, although
arc and gas welding are not recommended. It is available in the clad
(“Alclad”) form to improve the corrosion resistance with the over-all
high strength being only moderately affected. Applications: Used where
highest strength is needed.

And

ALUMINUM TEMPER DESIGNATIONS
Temper designations of wrought aluminum alloys consist of suffixes to
the numeric alloy designations. For example, in 3003-H14, 3003 denotes
the alloy and “H14” denotes the temper, or degree of hardness. The
temper designation also reveals the method by which the hardness was
obtained. Temper designations differ between non heat-treatable alloys
and heat-treatable alloys. and their meanings are given below:

Non Heat-Treatable Alloys

The letter “H” is always followed by 2 or 3 digits. The first digit
indicates the particular method used to obtain the temper. as follows:

— Hl means strain hardened only.

— H2 means strain hardened, then partially annealed.

— H3 means strain hardened, then stabilized.

The temper is indicated by the second digit as follows:

2 1/4 hard

4 I/2 hard

6 3/4 hard

8 full hard

9 extra hard

Added digits indicate modification of standard practice.

Heat-Treatable Alloys

-F As fabricated

-O Annealed

-T Heat treated

The letter “T” is always followed by one or more digits. These digits
indicate the method used to produce the stable tempers, as follows:

-T3 Solution heat treated, then cold worked.

-T351 Solution heat treated, stress-relieved stretched, then cold
worked.

-T36 Solution heat treated, then cold worked (controlled).

-T4 Solution heat treated, then naturally aged.

-T451 Solution heat treated, then stress relieved stretched.

-T5 Artificially aged only.

-T6 Solution heat treated, then artificially aged.

-T61 Solution heat treated (boiling water quench), then
artificially aged.

-T651 Solution heat treated, stress-relieved stretched, then
artificially aged (precipitation heat treatment).

-T652 Solution heat treated, stress relieved by compression. then
artificially aged.

-T7 Solution heat treated, then stabilized.

-T8 Solution heat treated, cold worked, then artificially aged.

-T81 Solution heat treated, cold worked (controlled), then
artificially aged.

-T851 Solution heat treated, cold worked, stress-relieved
stretched, then artificially aged.

-T9 Solution heat treated, artificially aged, then cold worked.

-T10 Artificially aged, then cold worked.

Added digits indicate modification of standard practice.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
Well, your boat aluminum turning to white powder, that is quite common
as while aluminum does form a thin layer of aluminum oxide which
protects it, to some extent, from corrosion it doesn't seem to work in
conjunction with the stainless screws and such that is used to hold
the aluminum to the boat :-)
As for "boat grade" stainless, I will say that I've never seen that
designation. You go to a chandlery and a nice shiny fitting is laying
there, it probably doesn't have a mark on it. It might be shiny silver
or shiny gold colored, but I've never seen one with a stamp, "Made
from boat stainless". Heck, they aren't even stamped "hinge" although
that is obviously what they are :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.


Oh no John, I didn't mean to imply there was really such a grade as 'Boat
Grade'. These were just some stainless parts sold at a boat shop - It was
just much better than aluminum. Yes, aluminum almost immediately oxidizes
but as you say is very thin and salty air can get right on through that.
And these were probable the cheapest parts available as well. And as I
remember I never bothered to wash it afterwards - this would have helped
greatly of course.

Thanks,
Bob Lowe

Most anything is better then aluminum when exposed to salt water :-)
(although I'm not sure about a 40 ft. stainless mast .......)

But the biggest problem with aluminum on boats is usually the
stainless bolts and screws used to fasten it. The Australians make
aluminum dinghies, often used as yacht tenders - call 'em "tinnies"
like a can of beer. They are welded, or riveted using aluminum rivets
and it is amazing how long they last. Providing you don't go bolting
on a stainless bracket to hold the mooring rope, anyway :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 20:11:37 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 2/10/2014 7:40 PM, John B. wrote:


My guess is strength after welding and extrudability. 6061 will
naturally reharden after welding, though not to its pre-welded T6
condition. 5052 will remain more or less annealed near any welds.

Extrudability:
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/dok... uminum_alloys


Perhaps. There is usually a certain amount of welding on masts and
spars, if only to attach the end fittings, and I suspect that it is
unlikely that every shop has a forty or fifty foot heat treating oven
;-)

None of my spars have ever been welded.
The spreader fittings, mast head crane. etc were always bolted.

Although there are some specialty masts that are tapered and thus welded.


Not really "specialty". Quite a few masts on, say 40+ foot boats are
tapered by cutting and welding. My last boat, for example. 42 ft. deck
stepped with about 25% of the top tapered. Partially I think to make
more room for the jib furler. The spreader brackets were also welded
to the mast, as was a bracket for the steaming light.


I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.


--
Ned Simmons

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
Most anything is better then aluminum when exposed to salt water :-)
(although I'm not sure about a 40 ft. stainless mast .......)
But the biggest problem with aluminum on boats is usually the
stainless bolts and screws used to fasten it. The Australians make
aluminum dinghies, often used as yacht tenders - call 'em "tinnies"
like a can of beer. They are welded, or riveted using aluminum rivets
and it is amazing how long they last. Providing you don't go bolting
on a stainless bracket to hold the mooring rope, anyway :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.


That was probable my problem with the electrolysis action of the two parts
and put the salt air on top of that and my poor boat didn't like that one
bit. The first time that I looked at the inside of the fuselage of a
Japanese Zero I thought Oh my gosh, the perception that the Japanese were
know for 'copying' things' sure didn't apply here. They definitely went
for lightness and then it was designed for their Navy as a carrier plane,
and history says that they were basically designed by German engineers
brought in just for this job. One could almost see where maybe the
Japanese stressed this 'lightness' part. Although it was fast, this was
probable its ultimate downfall because of this lack of cockpit armor and
self-sealing tanks. But back to aluminum, these planes that I saw were
setting around on the Island of Yap, and after setting for more than 30
years at maybe less than 50 feet altitude and a quarter of a mile for the
coast, the aluminum through out the plane was surprisingly sound
looking...and that thin skin was still very hard. I have read that this
was the predecessor to the Alcad (sp).

Bob Lowe


--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:18:03 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
Most anything is better then aluminum when exposed to salt water :-)
(although I'm not sure about a 40 ft. stainless mast .......)
But the biggest problem with aluminum on boats is usually the
stainless bolts and screws used to fasten it. The Australians make
aluminum dinghies, often used as yacht tenders - call 'em "tinnies"
like a can of beer. They are welded, or riveted using aluminum rivets
and it is amazing how long they last. Providing you don't go bolting
on a stainless bracket to hold the mooring rope, anyway :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.


That was probable my problem with the electrolysis action of the two parts
and put the salt air on top of that and my poor boat didn't like that one
bit. The first time that I looked at the inside of the fuselage of a
Japanese Zero I thought Oh my gosh, the perception that the Japanese were
know for 'copying' things' sure didn't apply here. They definitely went
for lightness and then it was designed for their Navy as a carrier plane,
and history says that they were basically designed by German engineers
brought in just for this job. One could almost see where maybe the
Japanese stressed this 'lightness' part. Although it was fast, this was
probable its ultimate downfall because of this lack of cockpit armor and
self-sealing tanks.

I remember reading the above statement - cockpit armor and self
sealing tanks - and it really seemed to make sense.... until I went in
the A.F. and actually worked on some of these critters and found that
none I worked on had armored cockpits nor self sealing tanks :-)

But back to aluminum, these planes that I saw were
setting around on the Island of Yap, and after setting for more than 30
years at maybe less than 50 feet altitude and a quarter of a mile for the
coast, the aluminum through out the plane was surprisingly sound
looking...and that thin skin was still very hard. I have read that this
was the predecessor to the Alcad (sp).

Bob Lowe
--
Cheers,

John B.

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe


--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:18:03 +0000, Bob Lowe
I remember reading the above statement - cockpit armor and self
sealing tanks - and it really seemed to make sense.... until I went in
the A.F. and actually worked on some of these critters and found that
none I worked on had armored cockpits nor self sealing tanks :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.


That's odd - I am thinking of the WW2 type fighters and I think most of
the cockpit armor was a back plate and I remember some with side plates.
There was a big Good Year plant in South LA, I think on Florence Ave.,
that made the self-sealing tanks 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (during
WW2)...but this sure doesn't mean that any you worked on had such of
course. Now I am curious as to what could be the criterion. We are
talking about WW2 prop planes, right?

Bob Lowe


--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:18:03 +0000, Bob Lowe
I remember reading the above statement - cockpit armor and self
sealing tanks - and it really seemed to make sense.... until I went in
the A.F. and actually worked on some of these critters and found that
none I worked on had armored cockpits nor self sealing tanks :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.


Don't get me wrong ...this is just something I found and is suspect of
course...as people can write anything on the web, right?

"Most military aircraft now have self-sealing tanks, even if only in part,
the technique as used in the Second World War."

Bob Lowe


--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe

I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 04:18:03 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:18:03 +0000, Bob Lowe
I remember reading the above statement - cockpit armor and self
sealing tanks - and it really seemed to make sense.... until I went in
the A.F. and actually worked on some of these critters and found that
none I worked on had armored cockpits nor self sealing tanks :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.


Don't get me wrong ...this is just something I found and is suspect of
course...as people can write anything on the web, right?

"Most military aircraft now have self-sealing tanks, even if only in part,
the technique as used in the Second World War."

Bob Lowe

I'm not arguing, just saying that I never saw it. and frankly I doubt
that it was a really a major factor. I was never assigned to work on
"little" airplanes but I had friends that did and if there was any
armor plating it must have been a bulkhead behind the seat as
certainly where was nothing on either side of the cockpit, which would
have limited any bullet proofing to an area of the back of a seated
figure.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:19:03 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:18:03 +0000, Bob Lowe
I remember reading the above statement - cockpit armor and self
sealing tanks - and it really seemed to make sense.... until I went in
the A.F. and actually worked on some of these critters and found that
none I worked on had armored cockpits nor self sealing tanks :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.


That's odd - I am thinking of the WW2 type fighters and I think most of
the cockpit armor was a back plate and I remember some with side plates.
There was a big Good Year plant in South LA, I think on Florence Ave.,
that made the self-sealing tanks 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (during
WW2)...but this sure doesn't mean that any you worked on had such of
course. Now I am curious as to what could be the criterion. We are
talking about WW2 prop planes, right?

Bob Lowe

I didn't really work on F-51's, about the only WW II fighters left in
1952, But they were a sexy airplane and I used to go over and visit
them. I didn't do any airframe maintenance but certainly no "armor
plate" was noticeable in the cockpit.

I did work on B-29's and they had no armor plate and we had one shot
down off N. Japan and after a single firing pass by a MIG the A.C.
elected to surrender, i.e,. drop the flaps and dive for the ground.
The reason was that the first pass caused massive fuel leaks from both
the inboard and outboard wing fuel tanks. So much for self sealing :-)

The B-29 did have three funny inner tanks in the center wing section
which might have been labeled "self sealing" but the center wing
section was also the most common place for fuel leaks :-)

In fact the only people I ever heard discuss "armor plating" was some
door gunners on the helicopters in Vietnam. They brought over a piece
of "boiler plate" one day, and wanted us to cut seat size pieces for
them to sit on.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.


I had a business fabricating marine hardware that I eased out of
beginning in 1985, so the bad old days were earlier than that. The
business is still operating, the owners are former employees.
http://www.nautilus-marine.com/index2.html

My aluminum welding experience is limited to TIG (Heliarc, GTAW). I've
only seen demo videos of gas welding aluminum online. Looks like
voodoo and black magic to me, but I've heard lots of folks say the
same about TIGging aluminum before they get the hang of it. Because of
aluminum's high thermal conductivity it takes a lot of heat to weld
it, and I imagine the practical thickness limit for gas welding is
pretty low.

I'd suggest a vocational class if you want to learn TIG. It's probably
a long shot expecting that you'll find an instructor that's familiar
with gas welding aluminum in a local voc program, but it's worth
asking. If you've already learned to gas weld steel, I'd suggest
reading and viewing all the info you can find on aluminum and give it
a shot on your own. What's the worst that could happen?

--
Ned Simmons

On 12/02/14 12:44, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons

Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe
I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.
I got shown how to weld aluminium with gas back in about 1985 by a
welding instructor, he wasn't a real welder but taught the course and
could passably gas weld aluminium. I had already taught myself to OA
weld so was good at steel and I noticed that there is a subtle change in
the surface appearance of the aluminium before it drops on the floor and
that is when to add the filler to keep the pool under control. After
about 10 minutes I was welding Al better than the instructor. Never had
any issues with glare either, the flux just seemed to go water clear and
wet the surface when near welding temp and I was fine with the standard
gas welding filters, maybe the flux in the UK is different. Not gas
welded Al for maybe 20 years now as have had TIG to use for Al but don't
weld Al that often anyway.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
m wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe

I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.


You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
I had a business fabricating marine hardware that I eased out of
beginning in 1985, so the bad old days were earlier than that. The
business is still operating, the owners are former employees.
http://www.nautilus-marine.com/index2.html
My aluminum welding experience is limited to TIG (Heliarc, GTAW). I've
only seen demo videos of gas welding aluminum online. Looks like
voodoo and black magic to me, but I've heard lots of folks say the
same about TIGging aluminum before they get the hang of it. Because of
aluminum's high thermal conductivity it takes a lot of heat to weld
it, and I imagine the practical thickness limit for gas welding is
pretty low.
I'd suggest a vocational class if you want to learn TIG. It's probably
a long shot expecting that you'll find an instructor that's familiar
with gas welding aluminum in a local voc program, but it's worth
asking. If you've already learned to gas weld steel, I'd suggest
reading and viewing all the info you can find on aluminum and give it
a shot on your own. What's the worst that could happen?
--
Ned Simmons


Yes Ned, the Vo-Tech school is a better way, but the nearest is just over
100 miles away. I took a machinist class there because it was 6 hours
every Saturday. I did talk to the Welding instructor and he is set up for
3 nights a week with no chance for a Saturday class - just my bad luck.
And I can understand his philosophy - more than 2 hours probable is too
much at a time...an hour class room and an hour practicing was his idea.
And I have found some of those videos very helpful - I have watched a
bunch. There is one guy in town that can butt-weld soft drink can
aluminum with his 6,000 $ welder and it looks great but he is not set up
for instructing, I tried.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe


--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:30:28 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

On 12/02/14 12:44, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons

Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe
I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.
I got shown how to weld aluminium with gas back in about 1985 by a
welding instructor, he wasn't a real welder but taught the course and
could passably gas weld aluminium. I had already taught myself to OA
weld so was good at steel and I noticed that there is a subtle change in
the surface appearance of the aluminium before it drops on the floor and

Yes, a subtle change :-) The new welder doesn't usually see it ...
until too late :-)

that is when to add the filler to keep the pool under control. After
about 10 minutes I was welding Al better than the instructor. Never had
any issues with glare either, the flux just seemed to go water clear and
wet the surface when near welding temp and I was fine with the standard
gas welding filters, maybe the flux in the UK is different. Not gas
welded Al for maybe 20 years now as have had TIG to use for Al but don't
weld Al that often anyway.

I've always sort of wondered about that. We learned using a paint on
flux and the usual green lens welding goggles and never a mention of
glare from the flux.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:41:44 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
om wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe

I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.


You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.

How does that work? What colors do you see?
--
Cheers,

John B.