replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
I had a business fabricating marine hardware that I eased out of
beginning in 1985, so the bad old days were earlier than that. The
business is still operating, the owners are former employees.
http://www.nautilus-marine.com/index2.html
My aluminum welding experience is limited to TIG (Heliarc, GTAW). I've
only seen demo videos of gas welding aluminum online. Looks like
voodoo and black magic to me, but I've heard lots of folks say the
same about TIGging aluminum before they get the hang of it. Because of
aluminum's high thermal conductivity it takes a lot of heat to weld
it, and I imagine the practical thickness limit for gas welding is
pretty low.
I'd suggest a vocational class if you want to learn TIG. It's probably
a long shot expecting that you'll find an instructor that's familiar
with gas welding aluminum in a local voc program, but it's worth
asking. If you've already learned to gas weld steel, I'd suggest
reading and viewing all the info you can find on aluminum and give it
a shot on your own. What's the worst that could happen?
--
Ned Simmons


Yes Ned - When I was 9 or 10 where my Dad worked they let him bring home
the arc rod that had been ruined by moisture and encouraged me to 'burn it
up', and I did. He could bring home a 3 inch bundle and it was gone in a
week. He was the 'odd job' welder in the neighborhood and would never
take a nickle. But he never had a gas welder...I just bought the regular
one when I retired here 18 years ago,and I am on only my 3rd refill...so I
have no need for a Mig or Tig outfit. I have the regular 240 volt
Lincoln, a smaller 120 volt and I wire feed, just to tinker with really.
I have done a few odd jobs here in the neighborhood...AND...I have never
taken a nickle. But, I can't touch their aluminum.

Well thanks,

Bob Lowe


--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:41:44 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
0f8503901d844703eea1acecb7a4938a_1650@example. com wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe

I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.


You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.

How does that work? What colors do you see?
No orange flair, for one.

Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:38:31 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:41:44 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
0f8503901d844703eea1acecb7a4938a_1650@example .com wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe

I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.


You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.

How does that work? What colors do you see?
No orange flair, for one.

Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)

So why dont they put a UV barrier coat on them? Cheap sunglasses have
it....


--
"Virtually all members of [radical] groups sincerely believe that
they are fighting the Establishment. In reality they are an indespensible ally
of the Establishment in fastening Socialism on all of us.
The naive radicals think that under Socialism the "people" will run everything.
Actually, it will be a clique of Insiders in total control, consolidating and
controlling all wealth. That is why these schoolboy Lenins and teenage Trotskys
are allowed to roam free and are practically never arrested or prosecuted.
They are protected. If the Establishment wanted the revolutionaries stopped,
how long do you think they would be tolerated?



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 13/02/14 04:38, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:41:44 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons

Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe
I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.

You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.
How does that work? What colors do you see?
No orange flair, for one.

I never noticed an orange flare when gas welding aluminium using
ordinary OA welding googles anyway so maybe it's a flux thing.


Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:38:31 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:41:44 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
0f8503901d844703eea1acecb7a4938a_1650@example .com wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe

I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.


You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.

How does that work? What colors do you see?
No orange flair, for one.

Are you talking about some sort of flair from the flux that I hear
people talking about so much? I can only assume that it is some sort
of new fangled stuff that we didn't have back in the early '50's when
I learned the technique, because I never noticed any "flair" using
plain old green welding goggles.

Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)

Somehow I get the feeling that you've lost the thread. You tell me
that some sort of fancy glasses let you see the heat when you weld
aluminum; I ask you how that works, and now you are off and running
with non-UV lens.

But how does all this let you see the heat of aluminum when you are
gas welding it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 13/02/14 11:39, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:38:31 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:41:44 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons

Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe
I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.

You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.
How does that work? What colors do you see?
No orange flair, for one.

Are you talking about some sort of flair from the flux that I hear
people talking about so much? I can only assume that it is some sort
of new fangled stuff that we didn't have back in the early '50's when
I learned the technique, because I never noticed any "flair" using
plain old green welding goggles.

I had a little look on the topic of aluminium welding and one UK forum
mentioned GWF (Gas Welding with Flux) rated filters. I can't find mine
now so can't check but at least one local welding supply lists them in
various styles and shades so maybe that's what I had all along. Found
this also http://allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=9151 and good to
see mentioned the comparison to expensive ones being made, maybe the
TM2000s?

I had a chuckle when I read the TM2000 page
https://www.tinmantech.com/html/tm2000.php with his bad science analogy
of how sodium gets in glass from glass = silica sand = seabeds = salt .
As I'm involved involved in glass blowing I know that the source of
sodium in soda lime glass is from sodium carbonate, not sodium chloride,
which is added to help bring the melting point of the glass down to a
workable temperature along with other things. In the heating process
carbon dioxide is liberated leaving sodium oxide in the glass. Also
glass sand as supplied is quite pure silicon dioxide.


Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)
Somehow I get the feeling that you've lost the thread. You tell me
that some sort of fancy glasses let you see the heat when you weld
aluminum; I ask you how that works, and now you are off and running
with non-UV lens.

But how does all this let you see the heat of aluminum when you are
gas welding it?

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 6:39:33 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:






Somehow I get the feeling that you've lost the thread. You tell me

that some sort of fancy glasses let you see the heat when you weld

aluminum; I ask you how that works, and now you are off and running

with non-UV lens.



But how does all this let you see the heat of aluminum when you are

gas welding it?

--

Cheers,



John B.

I think it is because the flux has sodium in it and when heated gives that yellow sodium vapor light. Cobalt lenses filter out the yellow sodium light and lets you see the aluminum clearly. So it is no miracle cure for welding, but it does let you see.

When you heat the aluminum, the outside oxidizes and the oxide covers the shiny melted aluminum. So you just keep poking at the aluminum with the rod and when you get some melted aluminum the rod pushes the oxide to one side and lets you see the melted aluminum.

Dan

replying to clare , Bob Lowe wrote:
clare wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
No orange flair, for one.
Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)


Hi - I just copied this from a Hobart Welding Guide.

"Aluminum does not exhibit color as it approaches its melting temperature.
Aluminum will show color above the melting point, at which time it will
glow a dull red.

When soldering or brazing aluminum with a torch, flux is used and the flux
will melt at the temperature of the base metal approaches the temperature
required. The flux first dries out and then melts as the base metal
reaches the correct working temperature.

When torch welding with oxyacetylene or oxy-hydrogen the surface of the
flux will melt first and assume a characteristic wet and shiny appearance.
(This aids in knowing when welding temperatures are reached.)

When welding with gas tungsten arc or gas metal arc, color is not too
important because the weld is quickly completed before the adjoining area
would melt.

When the factors above are taken into consideration it will allow making
welded joints in aluminum with little or no more trouble than when welding
steels."

I assume that this may be correct but maybe an over simplification of
things. I notice how it jumps from start to finish in 5 short paragraphs
with (...no more trouble than welding steels).

Based on other things that I have read, rather than just relying on this
'wet and shiny appearance', with certain types of goggle lens and
different fluxes a color change can help judge this ideal temperature
range more easily, (before it falls on the floor). Is this a fair
assessment? If this can be accepted then it appears to me that the idea
of lens types and fluxes can be a 'fast-track' to the better aluminum weld
with a standard oxyacetylene welder. Do you aluminum welders out there
agree with this? If so, it sounds like maybe one can make this a big step
in getting that better aluminum weld more sooner than later without the
investment of an expensive welder for the casual odd job aluminum welding.

Bob Lowe

--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 18:39:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:38:31 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:41:44 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
0f8503901d844703eea1acecb7a4938a_1650@exampl e.com wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe

I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.


You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.

How does that work? What colors do you see?
No orange flair, for one.

Are you talking about some sort of flair from the flux that I hear
people talking about so much? I can only assume that it is some sort
of new fangled stuff that we didn't have back in the early '50's when
I learned the technique, because I never noticed any "flair" using
plain old green welding goggles.

Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)

Somehow I get the feeling that you've lost the thread. You tell me
that some sort of fancy glasses let you see the heat when you weld
aluminum; I ask you how that works, and now you are off and running
with non-UV lens.

But how does all this let you see the heat of aluminum when you are
gas welding it?
It allows you to see that very subtle change that happens just
before it flows away - which you can NOT see if you are blinded by
flare.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:18:05 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to clare , Bob Lowe wrote:
clare wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
No orange flair, for one.
Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)


Hi - I just copied this from a Hobart Welding Guide.

"Aluminum does not exhibit color as it approaches its melting temperature.
Aluminum will show color above the melting point, at which time it will
glow a dull red.

When soldering or brazing aluminum with a torch, flux is used and the flux
will melt at the temperature of the base metal approaches the temperature
required. The flux first dries out and then melts as the base metal
reaches the correct working temperature.

When torch welding with oxyacetylene or oxy-hydrogen the surface of the
flux will melt first and assume a characteristic wet and shiny appearance.
(This aids in knowing when welding temperatures are reached.)

When welding with gas tungsten arc or gas metal arc, color is not too
important because the weld is quickly completed before the adjoining area
would melt.

When the factors above are taken into consideration it will allow making
welded joints in aluminum with little or no more trouble than when welding
steels."

I assume that this may be correct but maybe an over simplification of
things. I notice how it jumps from start to finish in 5 short paragraphs
with (...no more trouble than welding steels).

Based on other things that I have read, rather than just relying on this
'wet and shiny appearance', with certain types of goggle lens and
different fluxes a color change can help judge this ideal temperature
range more easily, (before it falls on the floor). Is this a fair
assessment? If this can be accepted then it appears to me that the idea
of lens types and fluxes can be a 'fast-track' to the better aluminum weld
with a standard oxyacetylene welder. Do you aluminum welders out there
agree with this? If so, it sounds like maybe one can make this a big step
in getting that better aluminum weld more sooner than later without the
investment of an expensive welder for the casual odd job aluminum welding.

Bob Lowe

The "wet and shiny" appearance is typical of any process that uses
flux. Brass/bronze brazing, or even silver brazing. Just before the
parent material reaches the temperature at which the brazing material
melts the flux melts. But it hardly requires cobalt, or whatever,
goggles. In fact I habitually silver braze with just my bifocals :-)

But the color change of aluminum that is mentioned is interesting.
I've made some small aluminum castings and as I remember the liquid
aluminum simply looked silver, not "red hot".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:39:22 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 18:39:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:38:31 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:41:44 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
0f8503901d844703eea1acecb7a4938a_1650@examp le.com wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe

I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.


You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.

How does that work? What colors do you see?
No orange flair, for one.

Are you talking about some sort of flair from the flux that I hear
people talking about so much? I can only assume that it is some sort
of new fangled stuff that we didn't have back in the early '50's when
I learned the technique, because I never noticed any "flair" using
plain old green welding goggles.

Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)

Somehow I get the feeling that you've lost the thread. You tell me
that some sort of fancy glasses let you see the heat when you weld
aluminum; I ask you how that works, and now you are off and running
with non-UV lens.

But how does all this let you see the heat of aluminum when you are
gas welding it?
It allows you to see that very subtle change that happens just
before it flows away - which you can NOT see if you are blinded by
flare.

I can only say that when I learned the technique, in about 1951, we
used green goggles and paint on flux and the entire class learned to
gas weld aluminum sufficiently well to be certified by the U.S.
Government.... and not a one of them complained about flare.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 08:06:11 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:39:22 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 18:39:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:38:31 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:41:44 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
0f8503901d844703eea1acecb7a4938a_1650@exam ple.com wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe

I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.


You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.

How does that work? What colors do you see?
No orange flair, for one.

Are you talking about some sort of flair from the flux that I hear
people talking about so much? I can only assume that it is some sort
of new fangled stuff that we didn't have back in the early '50's when
I learned the technique, because I never noticed any "flair" using
plain old green welding goggles.

Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)

Somehow I get the feeling that you've lost the thread. You tell me
that some sort of fancy glasses let you see the heat when you weld
aluminum; I ask you how that works, and now you are off and running
with non-UV lens.

But how does all this let you see the heat of aluminum when you are
gas welding it?
It allows you to see that very subtle change that happens just
before it flows away - which you can NOT see if you are blinded by
flare.

I can only say that when I learned the technique, in about 1951, we
used green goggles and paint on flux and the entire class learned to
gas weld aluminum sufficiently well to be certified by the U.S.
Government.... and not a one of them complained about flare.
The green goggles are pretty effective at killing the flare. But not
the UltraViolet.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 20:21:25 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 08:06:11 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:39:22 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 18:39:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:38:31 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 09:34:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:41:44 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:44:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
0f8503901d844703eea1acecb7a4938a_1650@exa mple.com wrote:

replying to Ned Simmons , Bob Lowe wrote:
news wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:51:04 +0700, John B.
I did quite a bit of welding on masts back in the bad old days, mostly
on boats 40 feet and up as well. Halyard winch bases and radar mounts
were the first things that came to mind.
--
Ned Simmons


Okay Ned, I have a question...I don't know how far back your bad old days
were but in the 50's when I needed some aluminum welding done I always had
it done by Heliarc, as if the gas welding flux hadn't been developed
yet...I really don't know this for sure. But now that I am retired my 'To
Do' list has grown to a couple of life times long and I can't get
everything crammed in. I have I think at least 3 gas welding outfits, the
regular industrial, a mid sized venturi air type and a little Map
Gas-Oxygen affair. I haven't gotten around to teaching myself how to weld
aluminum. I see the flux coated gas rod and this is my question....could
this be an easy way to get started on this? Or could you recommend
another starting point? I don't want to bother with getting into the Mig
welding area.

Thanks,

Bob Lowe

I learned to gas weld aluminum in 1951 and it was a bitch. My
suggestion is to arc weld anything thick enough and buy a TIG for the
thin stuff.

The problem with gas welding, and to some extent TIG welding aluminum
is that the metal doesn't change color when heated. You are heating
the parent metal, waiting for a puddle to form and suddenly the whole
thing falls on the ground.

The technique is to keep poking the spot where you intend the puddle
to form with the filler rod. If all goes well you will poke and a bit
of rod will melt off and there's your puddle.

But it is so much easier to just use the TIG or even a plain old arc
welder (with aluminum rods :-).

As an aside, not all aluminum can be welded.


You need a set of cobalt glasses to see the heat when welding aluminum
with gas.

How does that work? What colors do you see?
No orange flair, for one.

Are you talking about some sort of flair from the flux that I hear
people talking about so much? I can only assume that it is some sort
of new fangled stuff that we didn't have back in the early '50's when
I learned the technique, because I never noticed any "flair" using
plain old green welding goggles.

Cobalt Gold - not cobalt actually (better for the eyes) - or better
yet the TM2000 from Tinmantech.com. They are an emerald green. And
expensive.
The Cobalt lens is not effective against ultraviolet, so if you are
doing a lot of welding the TinMan lens is worth while (won't give you
cataracts)

Somehow I get the feeling that you've lost the thread. You tell me
that some sort of fancy glasses let you see the heat when you weld
aluminum; I ask you how that works, and now you are off and running
with non-UV lens.

But how does all this let you see the heat of aluminum when you are
gas welding it?
It allows you to see that very subtle change that happens just
before it flows away - which you can NOT see if you are blinded by
flare.

I can only say that when I learned the technique, in about 1951, we
used green goggles and paint on flux and the entire class learned to
gas weld aluminum sufficiently well to be certified by the U.S.
Government.... and not a one of them complained about flare.
The green goggles are pretty effective at killing the flare. But not
the UltraViolet.

Gee, the green goggles have been pretty well standardized in the gas
welding/cutting business for what? 60 - 70 years? Longer? Now we got
UV?
--
Cheers,

John B.

replying to F. George McDuffee , Bob Lowe wrote:
gmcduffee wrote:

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 13:53:14 -0800, Erik
snip
-------------
Right up there with surgical stainless
--
Unka' George
"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"


Hi - I was just watching an aluminum welding tutorial and it made an
interesting point...don't put all of your of your practice into making
good looking welds. Make sure you practice in making 'bad' welds...this
way one sees what is not good and what not to do. Just like the old
adage, "One learns more from their mistakes than from their successes."
And another point, like the extreme practice idea - If one is just
starting out in learning to weld, start with welding aluminum and then
welding steel will come much easier. Any takers on this? It sounds okay
to me. I have always believed in the mistake philosophy.

Bob Lowe


--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 16:19:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to F. George McDuffee , Bob Lowe wrote:
gmcduffee wrote:

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 13:53:14 -0800, Erik
snip
-------------
Right up there with surgical stainless
--
Unka' George
"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"


Hi - I was just watching an aluminum welding tutorial and it made an
interesting point...don't put all of your of your practice into making
good looking welds. Make sure you practice in making 'bad' welds...this
way one sees what is not good and what not to do. Just like the old
adage, "One learns more from their mistakes than from their successes."
And another point, like the extreme practice idea - If one is just
starting out in learning to weld, start with welding aluminum and then
welding steel will come much easier. Any takers on this? It sounds okay
to me. I have always believed in the mistake philosophy.

Bob Lowe

Why "practice making bad welds". You'll don't have to practice to do
that and will make plenty of them in the normal course of learning
how.

--
Cheers,

John B.

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 16:19:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
Why "practice making bad welds". You'll don't have to practice to do
that and will make plenty of them in the normal course of learning
how.
--
Cheers,
John B.


Hello moderator - I hope you don't mind this thread morphing into another
topic. John, I think the mistake philosophy in this aluminum welding has
a definite dividing line with the difference being if you make a mistake
while trying to do good, one may not know what caused it. If one is
trying to make some bad welds on purpose and sees the results, this may
help them to learn just what causes these bad looking welds when trying
not too. Just a fine point. I can think of many applications. But this
is not to say that all will think this way.

This video that I was watching was way better than most where most are out
of focus and show just a ball of meaningless light. His was so well done
and showed the fine detail of the puddle and with perfect focus and camera
filters...Definitely a case of a picture being worth a thousand words. I
will try to find the link again if anyone is interested.

Bob Lowe

--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ts-592658-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 04:18:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
wrote:

replying to John B. , Bob Lowe wrote:
slocombjb wrote:

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 16:19:02 +0000, Bob Lowe
Why "practice making bad welds". You'll don't have to practice to do
that and will make plenty of them in the normal course of learning
how.
--
Cheers,
John B.


Hello moderator - I hope you don't mind this thread morphing into another
topic. John, I think the mistake philosophy in this aluminum welding has
a definite dividing line with the difference being if you make a mistake
while trying to do good, one may not know what caused it. If one is
trying to make some bad welds on purpose and sees the results, this may
help them to learn just what causes these bad looking welds when trying
not too. Just a fine point. I can think of many applications. But this
is not to say that all will think this way.


I'm not sure whether we are using TIG or gas for this exercise :-) but
the problem with trying to do it wrong is that there are so many
things that you can do wrong.... Wrong polarity with your DC machine;
trying to weld aluminum with DC; Wrong filler rod; Wrong TIG
electrode; Grinding electrode incorrectly; Striking a TIG arc with the
gas turned off; and on and on. There are so many wrong things to do
that it seems impossible to practice all of them.

It just seems like a better scheme to try to do all the right things.
--
Cheers,

John B.