On 2/4/2014 6:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
....

... I'd go the extra
step and actually check the plugs themselves, not just the spare.

I'll do that tomorrow morning and post the results.

Is this the carb-injected or fully injected arrangement?

Fully injected.

Have you tried a squirt of starter fluid while cranking?

Yes, and got a very impressive backfire through the throttle body.

OK, it's next morning; I didn't get back last night.

The others are basically correct imo, too, you're timing is screwed up.
You've demonstrated spark to my satisfaction; if there is a plug issue
it'll be sufficiently minor to be dealt with later if it's still running
a little badly; not that they're not firing so skip ignition issues.

Either you have swapped firing order w/ the plug wires or you've slipped
a timing belt cog or the like...

Not sure about the sensors on that engine whether it's possible to get a
polarity problem or otherwise screw up the indicated position while the
mechanical is ok or not...the old Honda CRX lost the timing belt and
tagged the valves so be careful cranking if it's actually out; you
possibly could do same depending on particular engine.

--

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote in
:

Hey, clare, don't you love the massive shotgunning this amateur has
done? Hundreds of dollars worth of parts replacement with
absolutely
-zero- satisfaction. g

I notice that you don't seem to have any more idea of what's wrong
than I do, so that comment
would seem to be somewhat out of place.

Perhaps you could suggest a better course of action than what I have
already described?

I've replaced a number of functional parts like the timing belt, coils
and wires on my 25-year-old truck on the principle of military
Preventative Maintenance. They are cheaper than a tow and easier to
swap in my driveway than on the side of the road.

I figure I'm ahead if I spend less than $1000 a year to keep it
running since a new one would depreciate much more than that and be
more expensive to insure and register.

jsw

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 01:31:01 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:00:22 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 5 Feb 2014 05:23:52 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-02-05, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel
comes out, not air.

O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement
fuel injector is bad?

DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad?

Well ... it stopped running at all after the injector was
replaced -- so really more likely something happening to keep all the
injectors on -- say a short keeping power to all four?

While extremely unlikely, it is possible. Zebras v. horses.


On the Saturns..if you push the gas pedal down to the floor and hold
it there while starting..its supposed to turn the injectors OFF as
long as the pedal is held fully down while cranking.

That's an interesting data point. I hope I remember it.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 08:49:25 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 2/4/2014 6:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
...

... I'd go the extra
step and actually check the plugs themselves, not just the spare.

I'll do that tomorrow morning and post the results.

Is this the carb-injected or fully injected arrangement?

Fully injected.

Have you tried a squirt of starter fluid while cranking?

Yes, and got a very impressive backfire through the throttle body.

OK, it's next morning; I didn't get back last night.

The others are basically correct imo, too, you're timing is screwed up.
You've demonstrated spark to my satisfaction; if there is a plug issue
it'll be sufficiently minor to be dealt with later if it's still running
a little badly; not that they're not firing so skip ignition issues.

Either you have swapped firing order w/ the plug wires or you've slipped
a timing belt cog or the like...

Not sure about the sensors on that engine whether it's possible to get a
polarity problem or otherwise screw up the indicated position while the
mechanical is ok or not...the old Honda CRX lost the timing belt and
tagged the valves so be careful cranking if it's actually out; you
possibly could do same depending on particular engine.

IRRC..there is a crank position sensor.....

--
"Virtually all members of [radical] groups sincerely believe that
they are fighting the Establishment. In reality they are an indespensible ally
of the Establishment in fastening Socialism on all of us.
The naive radicals think that under Socialism the "people" will run everything.
Actually, it will be a clique of Insiders in total control, consolidating and
controlling all wealth. That is why these schoolboy Lenins and teenage Trotskys
are allowed to roam free and are practically never arrested or prosecuted.
They are protected. If the Establishment wanted the revolutionaries stopped,
how long do you think they would be tolerated?

Leon Trotsky

---
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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

It would be 180 degrees off, not 360.

It's not a 2 cycle.

The waste spark system fires two cylinders at every top dead center.
Supposedly the uncompressed hot exhaust gas in one of them doesn't absorb
much of the spark energy.
jsw

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in
message news:jPGdnXN8R9fn_W_PnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

It would be 180 degrees off, not 360.

It's not a 2 cycle.

The waste spark system fires two cylinders at every top dead
center. Supposedly the uncompressed hot exhaust gas in one of them
doesn't absorb much of the spark energy.
jsw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasted_spark
"a conventional four-stroke engine, this signal must also observe the
phase of the camshaft relative to the crankshaft, so contact breakers
are normally driven from the camshaft and distributor drive. With a
wasted spark, the crankshaft can be used instead, as the system fires
on both revolutions."

Like a 2-stroke.

jsw

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 10:01:59 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.. .
Larry Jaques wrote in
:

Hey, clare, don't you love the massive shotgunning this amateur has
done? Hundreds of dollars worth of parts replacement with
absolutely
-zero- satisfaction. g

I notice that you don't seem to have any more idea of what's wrong
than I do, so that comment
would seem to be somewhat out of place.

(You're in my twit file, Doug. I see your posts only when someone
quotes you. Ask Stryper for help, whydoncha?


Perhaps you could suggest a better course of action than what I have
already described?

(You're already into it for more than a pro would have charged, and a
pro would have a network of other -relevant- pros to fall back on for
advice when they came up empty. I'm certainly not saying that the
good folks here aren't knowledgeable, but I think clare is the only
-active- automotive font of knowledge here.

But it's likely documented by Saturn dealers and could turn out to be
a $50 fix, or whatever their minimum is nowadays. I've been out of
the field since '86.)


I've replaced a number of functional parts like the timing belt, coils
and wires on my 25-year-old truck on the principle of military
Preventative Maintenance. They are cheaper than a tow and easier to
swap in my driveway than on the side of the road.

Absolutely!


I figure I'm ahead if I spend less than $1000 a year to keep it
running since a new one would depreciate much more than that and be
more expensive to insure and register.

I prefer the relative maintenance-free comfort of a newer vehicle, but
you have a definite point there.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 21:11:58 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 20:09:11 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 21:09:22 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote in
:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

On 2014-02-02, Doug Miller wrote:
Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the

[ ... ]

Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail.

Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't
run.
No codes, either.

[ ... ]

And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas?

One possiblity occurs to me.

Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it?

Factory service manual says:

Prime fuel system:
a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds.
b. repeat step a twice.
c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds)
d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c.

Did that. Still doesn't start.

I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves)
for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors
aren't going to work.

Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel
comes out, not air.

Update: pulled all four plugs after about 30 seconds of cranking. Enging still won't start, but
all four plugs are wet with fuel.

So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem.

Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, since I've replaced darn near the whole
ignition system: plugs, wires, and coils.

Also: the coolant temperature sensor is a known cause of crank-but-no-start problems on
the Saturn S-series. Replaced that too -- it's only $13 -- with no effect.
You have no spark. Find out why.
Do you have 12 volts on one side of the coil primary with the key
on???

Hey, clare, don't you love the massive shotgunning this amateur has
done? Hundreds of dollars worth of parts replacement with absolutely
-zero- satisfaction. g
Sadly I know some "professionals" who are just as bad.

Troubleshooting is a lost art, and logical thought all but
non-existant in the general population. Sure helps to understand the
basic theory of how something works, too.

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 21:14:46 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-02-04, Doug Miller wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

[ ... ]

Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it?

Factory service manual says:

Prime fuel system:
a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds.
b. repeat step a twice.
c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds)
d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c.

Did that. Still doesn't start.

I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves)
for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors
aren't going to work.

Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel
comes out, not air.

O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement
fuel injector is bad?

DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad?
A badly flooded cyl can flood the rest of the engine too. Has the OP
checked his oil level on the dipstick? If the injector(s) is (are)
stuck open he will be "making oil".

My suspicion is he grounded his injectors by pinching a wire. I've
seen it happen more than once. (never done it myself, but have had to
fix a few))

On 5 Feb 2014 05:23:52 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-02-05, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel
comes out, not air.

O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement
fuel injector is bad?

DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad?

Well ... it stopped running at all after the injector was
replaced -- so really more likely something happening to keep all the
injectors on -- say a short keeping power to all four?

Enjoy,
DoN.
Power is supplied to all 4 any time the key is on. The computer
grounds the injector to fire it.. The 1996 SC2 is sequential
injection.

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 08:49:25 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 2/4/2014 6:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
...

... I'd go the extra
step and actually check the plugs themselves, not just the spare.

I'll do that tomorrow morning and post the results.

Is this the carb-injected or fully injected arrangement?

Fully injected.

Have you tried a squirt of starter fluid while cranking?

Yes, and got a very impressive backfire through the throttle body.

OK, it's next morning; I didn't get back last night.

The others are basically correct imo, too, you're timing is screwed up.
You've demonstrated spark to my satisfaction; if there is a plug issue
it'll be sufficiently minor to be dealt with later if it's still running
a little badly; not that they're not firing so skip ignition issues.

Either you have swapped firing order w/ the plug wires or you've slipped
a timing belt cog or the like...

Not sure about the sensors on that engine whether it's possible to get a
polarity problem or otherwise screw up the indicated position while the
mechanical is ok or not...the old Honda CRX lost the timing belt and
tagged the valves so be careful cranking if it's actually out; you
possibly could do same depending on particular engine.
If the belt jumped the compression will be below spec on crank.

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 07:16:19 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 01:31:01 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:00:22 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 5 Feb 2014 05:23:52 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-02-05, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel
comes out, not air.

O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement
fuel injector is bad?

DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad?

Well ... it stopped running at all after the injector was
replaced -- so really more likely something happening to keep all the
injectors on -- say a short keeping power to all four?

While extremely unlikely, it is possible. Zebras v. horses.


On the Saturns..if you push the gas pedal down to the floor and hold
it there while starting..its supposed to turn the injectors OFF as
long as the pedal is held fully down while cranking.

That's an interesting data point. I hope I remember it.
ALL electronic ignition vehicles function that way.

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 08:01:50 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

It would be 180 degrees off, not 360.

It's not a 2 cycle.

The waste spark system fires two cylinders at every top dead center.
Supposedly the uncompressed hot exhaust gas in one of them doesn't absorb
much of the spark energy.
jsw


It is also a "waste spark" engine - so the plugs fir TDC compression,
AND half a cycle off.

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 11:34:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in
message news:jPGdnXN8R9fn_W_PnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

It would be 180 degrees off, not 360.

It's not a 2 cycle.

The waste spark system fires two cylinders at every top dead
center. Supposedly the uncompressed hot exhaust gas in one of them
doesn't absorb much of the spark energy.
jsw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasted_spark
"a conventional four-stroke engine, this signal must also observe the
phase of the camshaft relative to the crankshaft, so contact breakers
are normally driven from the camshaft and distributor drive. With a
wasted spark, the crankshaft can be used instead, as the system fires
on both revolutions."

Like a 2-stroke.

jsw

But crank sensor only can't tell if the belt has jumped. Some engines
(don't know about the Saturn) will not fire if the cam sensor and
crank sensor are not timed identically (to prevent damage from running
mis-timed)

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:27:14 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 21:14:46 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-02-04, Doug Miller wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

[ ... ]

Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it?

Factory service manual says:

Prime fuel system:
a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds.
b. repeat step a twice.
c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds)
d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c.

Did that. Still doesn't start.

I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves)
for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors
aren't going to work.

Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel
comes out, not air.

O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement
fuel injector is bad?

DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad?
A badly flooded cyl can flood the rest of the engine too. Has the OP
checked his oil level on the dipstick? If the injector(s) is (are)
stuck open he will be "making oil".

My suspicion is he grounded his injectors by pinching a wire. I've
seen it happen more than once. (never done it myself, but have had to
fix a few))
Greetings Clare,
The OP said that when starting fluid was used it backfired out the
throttle body. In my experience as a shadetree mechanic when I
experienced backfire it was either an intake valve or valves that
didn't seal, for whatever reason, or the timing was off so that the
spark occurred when the intake valve was open. What other conditions
can cause backfiring on a fuel injected engine? It's nice to be able
to ask someone who really knows about cars.
Cheers,
Eric

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

dpb wrote in :

On 2/4/2014 6:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
...

... I'd go the extra
step and actually check the plugs themselves, not just the spare.

I'll do that tomorrow morning and post the results.

Is this the carb-injected or fully injected arrangement?

Fully injected.

Have you tried a squirt of starter fluid while cranking?

Yes, and got a very impressive backfire through the throttle body.

OK, it's next morning; I didn't get back last night.

The others are basically correct imo, too, you're timing is screwed up.
You've demonstrated spark to my satisfaction; if there is a plug issue
it'll be sufficiently minor to be dealt with later if it's still running
a little badly; not that they're not firing so skip ignition issues.

Either you have swapped firing order w/ the plug wires

Definitely not. I've checked that about five times now.

or you've slipped a timing belt cog or the like...

Saturn S-series engines use timing chains, not belts. I suppose if the tensioner broke, the
chain might have jumped... but that seems unlikely.

Not sure about the sensors on that engine whether it's possible to get a
polarity problem or otherwise screw up the indicated position while the
mechanical is ok or not...

Saw pretty much the same behavior on our other Saturn S-series last summer when the
crankshaft position sensor failed. That tests good on this one, though.

wrote in :

A badly flooded cyl can flood the rest of the engine too. Has the OP
checked his oil level on the dipstick? If the injector(s) is (are)
stuck open he will be "making oil".

Oil level is OK.

My suspicion is he grounded his injectors by pinching a wire. I've
seen it happen more than once. (never done it myself, but have had to
fix a few))

So you think the injectors are running constantly, and flooding it? If that were the case, I should
be able to smell it. But I don't.

wrote in :

The OP said that when starting fluid was used it backfired out the
throttle body. In my experience as a shadetree mechanic when I
experienced backfire it was either an intake valve or valves that
didn't seal, for whatever reason, or the timing was off so that the
spark occurred when the intake valve was open. What other conditions
can cause backfiring on a fuel injected engine?

Faulty crankshaft position sensor that causes the PCM to think the crank is someplace it's not?

wrote in :

But crank sensor only can't tell if the belt has jumped. Some engines
(don't know about the Saturn) will not fire if the cam sensor and
crank sensor are not timed identically (to prevent damage from running
mis-timed)

The Saturn S-series engine doesn't have a cam sensor.

Larry Jaques wrote in
:

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 10:01:59 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. ..
Larry Jaques wrote in
:

Hey, clare, don't you love the massive shotgunning this amateur has
done? Hundreds of dollars worth of parts replacement with
absolutely
-zero- satisfaction. g

I notice that you don't seem to have any more idea of what's wrong
than I do, so that comment
would seem to be somewhat out of place.

(You're in my twit file, Doug. I see your posts only when someone
quotes you. Ask Stryper for help, whydoncha?

I think it's past time that I put you in my twit-filter too, since you obviously have no clue how to
locate or fix the problem and hence have nothing to contribute beyond gratuitously
obnoxious remarks.


Perhaps you could suggest a better course of action than what I have
already described?

(You're already into it for more than a pro would have charged,

Really? So far, the total is only about $175. The tow to a shop, alone, would be 40% of that.

So you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

and a
pro would have a network of other -relevant- pros to fall back on for
advice when they came up empty. I'm certainly not saying that the
good folks here aren't knowledgeable, but I think clare is the only
-active- automotive font of knowledge here.

Clearly you aren't, at any rate.


But it's likely documented by Saturn dealers

*WHAT* Saturn dealers?

and could turn out to be
a $50 fix, or whatever their minimum is nowadays. I've been out of
the field since '86.)

No, you're not out of the field at all. You're still way out in left field.

Especially if you think you can get anybody to look at an engine for fifty bucks.

Idiot.

plonk

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 10:43:18 -0800, wrote:

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:27:14 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 21:14:46 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-02-04, Doug Miller wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

[ ... ]

Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it?

Factory service manual says:

Prime fuel system:
a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds.
b. repeat step a twice.
c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds)
d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c.

Did that. Still doesn't start.

I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves)
for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors
aren't going to work.

Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel
comes out, not air.

O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement
fuel injector is bad?

DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad?
A badly flooded cyl can flood the rest of the engine too. Has the OP
checked his oil level on the dipstick? If the injector(s) is (are)
stuck open he will be "making oil".

My suspicion is he grounded his injectors by pinching a wire. I've
seen it happen more than once. (never done it myself, but have had to
fix a few))
Greetings Clare,
The OP said that when starting fluid was used it backfired out the
throttle body. In my experience as a shadetree mechanic when I
experienced backfire it was either an intake valve or valves that
didn't seal, for whatever reason, or the timing was off so that the
spark occurred when the intake valve was open. What other conditions
can cause backfiring on a fuel injected engine? It's nice to be able
to ask someone who really knows about cars.
Cheers,
Eric

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
I've had badly flooded engines backfire on ether.
That engine needs to be "dried out" which may require changing the
oil, and it needs clean dry plugs. It also needs to be checked for
injector pulses - a set of "noid" lights would make the job easier.
If the injectors are not firing it COULD be a bad sensor - but if they
are on steady he has a bad engine control computer or grounded
harness. Disconnect the computer, if they still stay on the harness is
at fault. If not, the computer.

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 19:49:55 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote in
:

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 10:01:59 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote in
:

Hey, clare, don't you love the massive shotgunning this amateur has
done? Hundreds of dollars worth of parts replacement with
absolutely
-zero- satisfaction. g

I notice that you don't seem to have any more idea of what's wrong
than I do, so that comment
would seem to be somewhat out of place.

(You're in my twit file, Doug. I see your posts only when someone
quotes you. Ask Stryper for help, whydoncha?

I think it's past time that I put you in my twit-filter too, since you obviously have no clue how to
locate or fix the problem and hence have nothing to contribute beyond gratuitously
obnoxious remarks.


Perhaps you could suggest a better course of action than what I have
already described?

(You're already into it for more than a pro would have charged,

Really? So far, the total is only about $175. The tow to a shop, alone, would be 40% of that.

So you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

and a
pro would have a network of other -relevant- pros to fall back on for
advice when they came up empty. I'm certainly not saying that the
good folks here aren't knowledgeable, but I think clare is the only
-active- automotive font of knowledge here.

Clearly you aren't, at any rate.


But it's likely documented by Saturn dealers

*WHAT* Saturn dealers?

and could turn out to be
a $50 fix, or whatever their minimum is nowadays. I've been out of
the field since '86.)

No, you're not out of the field at all. You're still way out in left field.

Especially if you think you can get anybody to look at an engine for fifty bucks.

Idiot.

plonk
I think you'll find that Larry is out in -Right- field.
Eric

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http://www.avast.com

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 19:49:55 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:


But it's likely documented by Saturn dealers

*WHAT* Saturn dealers?

He probably doesnt realize that Saturn went tits up about 5 yrs
ago.....


--
"Virtually all members of [radical] groups sincerely believe that
they are fighting the Establishment. In reality they are an indespensible ally
of the Establishment in fastening Socialism on all of us.
The naive radicals think that under Socialism the "people" will run everything.
Actually, it will be a clique of Insiders in total control, consolidating and
controlling all wealth. That is why these schoolboy Lenins and teenage Trotskys
are allowed to roam free and are practically never arrested or prosecuted.
They are protected. If the Establishment wanted the revolutionaries stopped,
how long do you think they would be tolerated?

Leon Trotsky

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 2/5/2014 1:39 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
....

Saturn S-series engines use timing chains, not belts. I suppose if
thetensioner broke, the
chain might have jumped... but that seems unlikely.


I've seen 'em get off a tooth (or break a tooth or the like) but as
somebody else noted, that you seem to have good compression means
mechanically it's in synch within enough it ought to fire lacking
something else. May be time for new for PM, but it ain't the present
problem.

Not sure about the sensors on that engine whether it's possible to get a
polarity problem or otherwise screw up the indicated position while the
mechanical is ok or not...

Saw pretty much the same behavior on our other Saturn S-series last summer when the
crankshaft position sensor failed. That tests good on this one, though.

Then the firing order is suspect or you put the cam back in 180 out or
something similar to have the intake valves open when it fired. As
again somebody else noted, there's no back fire thru the throat if
intakes are closed when it fired so they weren't.

--

dpb wrote in :

On 2/5/2014 1:39 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
...

Saturn S-series engines use timing chains, not belts. I suppose if
thetensioner broke, the
chain might have jumped... but that seems unlikely.


I've seen 'em get off a tooth (or break a tooth or the like) but as
somebody else noted, that you seem to have good compression means
mechanically it's in synch within enough it ought to fire lacking
something else. May be time for new for PM, but it ain't the present
problem.

I did the compression check before the engine began refusing to start at all. Haven't
rechecked it after.

Not sure about the sensors on that engine whether it's possible to get a
polarity problem or otherwise screw up the indicated position while the
mechanical is ok or not...

Saw pretty much the same behavior on our other Saturn S-series last summer when the
crankshaft position sensor failed. That tests good on this one, though.

Then the firing order is suspect

I've checked and rechecked the firing order maybe half a dozen times. It's correct.

or you put the cam back in 180 out or

Haven't had the cam out.

something similar to have the intake valves open when it fired. As
again somebody else noted, there's no back fire thru the throat if
intakes are closed when it fired so they weren't.

--

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 21:16:33 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

dpb wrote in :

On 2/5/2014 1:39 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
...

Saturn S-series engines use timing chains, not belts. I suppose if
thetensioner broke, the
chain might have jumped... but that seems unlikely.


I've seen 'em get off a tooth (or break a tooth or the like) but as
somebody else noted, that you seem to have good compression means
mechanically it's in synch within enough it ought to fire lacking
something else. May be time for new for PM, but it ain't the present
problem.

I did the compression check before the engine began refusing to start at all. Haven't
rechecked it after.

Not sure about the sensors on that engine whether it's possible to get a
polarity problem or otherwise screw up the indicated position while the
mechanical is ok or not...

Saw pretty much the same behavior on our other Saturn S-series last summer when the
crankshaft position sensor failed. That tests good on this one, though.

Then the firing order is suspect

I've checked and rechecked the firing order maybe half a dozen times. It's correct.

or you put the cam back in 180 out or

Haven't had the cam out.

something similar to have the intake valves open when it fired. As
again somebody else noted, there's no back fire thru the throat if
intakes are closed when it fired so they weren't.

--

Have you checked the oil level??Smell the dipstick? Is there Gas in
the crankcase??
I've had engines backfire through the intake on ether before - and
even on gasoline - particularly if a valve is a little sticky - which
sometimes happens when an engine is badly flooded.
Pull the plugs, do a compression test, change the oil if required. If
the compression is low, squirt a bit of oil in the cyls and spin it
over - recheck. Then check timing

If the compression is good, and the plugs are clean and dry, and you
have fuel it WILL start

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 21:16:33 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

dpb wrote in :

On 2/5/2014 1:39 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
...

Saturn S-series engines use timing chains, not belts. I suppose if
thetensioner broke, the
chain might have jumped... but that seems unlikely.


I've seen 'em get off a tooth (or break a tooth or the like) but as
somebody else noted, that you seem to have good compression means
mechanically it's in synch within enough it ought to fire lacking
something else. May be time for new for PM, but it ain't the present
problem.

I did the compression check before the engine began refusing to start at all. Haven't
rechecked it after.

Not sure about the sensors on that engine whether it's possible to get a
polarity problem or otherwise screw up the indicated position while the
mechanical is ok or not...

Saw pretty much the same behavior on our other Saturn S-series last summer when the
crankshaft position sensor failed. That tests good on this one, though.

Then the firing order is suspect

I've checked and rechecked the firing order maybe half a dozen times. It's correct.

or you put the cam back in 180 out or

Haven't had the cam out.

something similar to have the intake valves open when it fired. As
again somebody else noted, there's no back fire thru the throat if
intakes are closed when it fired so they weren't.

--

Your firing order could be correct but the timing could still be off.
All this means is that the proper plug may fire the proper cylinder
but that it doesn't fire when both valves are closed. I don't know how
many degrees it would need to be off for the intake valve to be open
whin the plug fires.
Eric

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On Sun, 2 Feb 2014 02:25:01 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

snip

And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas?
=============
Lots of good suggestions.

You didn't get a batch of contaminated gas did you?
Did wife fill up just before trouble started? Is fuel filter
clogged/restricted?

Backfire with starter fluid seems to rule out no-spark
electrical. Any chance of damage if you try this again?

also try
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=197840
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=169433

google on {saturn DOC "starting problems"} 615k results


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:58:08 -0800, wrote:

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 21:16:33 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

dpb wrote in :

On 2/5/2014 1:39 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
...

Saturn S-series engines use timing chains, not belts. I suppose if
thetensioner broke, the
chain might have jumped... but that seems unlikely.


I've seen 'em get off a tooth (or break a tooth or the like) but as
somebody else noted, that you seem to have good compression means
mechanically it's in synch within enough it ought to fire lacking
something else. May be time for new for PM, but it ain't the present
problem.

I did the compression check before the engine began refusing to start at all. Haven't
rechecked it after.

Not sure about the sensors on that engine whether it's possible to get a
polarity problem or otherwise screw up the indicated position while the
mechanical is ok or not...

Saw pretty much the same behavior on our other Saturn S-series last summer when the
crankshaft position sensor failed. That tests good on this one, though.

Then the firing order is suspect

I've checked and rechecked the firing order maybe half a dozen times. It's correct.

or you put the cam back in 180 out or

Haven't had the cam out.

something similar to have the intake valves open when it fired. As
again somebody else noted, there's no back fire thru the throat if
intakes are closed when it fired so they weren't.

--

Your firing order could be correct but the timing could still be off.
All this means is that the proper plug may fire the proper cylinder
but that it doesn't fire when both valves are closed. I don't know how
many degrees it would need to be off for the intake valve to be open
whin the plug fires.
Eric

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VIRTUALLY impossible with a direct fire lost spark system

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:jPGdnXN8R9fn_W_PnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

It would be 180 degrees off, not 360.

It's not a 2 cycle.

The waste spark system fires two cylinders at every top dead center.
Supposedly the uncompressed hot exhaust gas in one of them doesn't
absorb much of the spark energy.
jsw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasted_spark
"a conventional four-stroke engine, this signal must also observe the
phase of the camshaft relative to the crankshaft, so contact breakers are
normally driven from the camshaft and distributor drive. With a wasted
spark, the crankshaft can be used instead, as the system fires on both
revolutions."

Like a 2-stroke.


Semantics....4 cycles go through 720 degrees of crank rotation for each
compression stroke, whether there's multiple pistons or a wasted spark is
irelevant.

That said, it sounds like it's getting fuel, but for some reason the spark
is going off when the intake valve is open....(which may well be perfectedly
expected, IF you have a flooded cylinder and the wasted spark normally
occurs at valve overlap)

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
dpb wrote in :

On 2/5/2014 1:39 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
...

Saturn S-series engines use timing chains, not belts. I suppose if
thetensioner broke, the
chain might have jumped... but that seems unlikely.


I've seen 'em get off a tooth (or break a tooth or the like) but as
somebody else noted, that you seem to have good compression means
mechanically it's in synch within enough it ought to fire lacking
something else. May be time for new for PM, but it ain't the present
problem.

I did the compression check before the engine began refusing to start at
all. Haven't
rechecked it after.

Not sure about the sensors on that engine whether it's possible to get
a
polarity problem or otherwise screw up the indicated position while the
mechanical is ok or not...

Saw pretty much the same behavior on our other Saturn S-series last
summer when the
crankshaft position sensor failed. That tests good on this one, though.

Then the firing order is suspect

I've checked and rechecked the firing order maybe half a dozen times. It's
correct.


Hopefully you've also checked to make sure that the LOW VOLTAGE wiring TO
the coils are attached to the correct coil.


or you put the cam back in 180 out or

Haven't had the cam out.

something similar to have the intake valves open when it fired. As
again somebody else noted, there's no back fire thru the throat if
intakes are closed when it fired so they weren't.

--

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 2 Feb 2014 02:25:01 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

snip

And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas?
=============
Lots of good suggestions.

You didn't get a batch of contaminated gas did you?

That actually happened to me once, took two weeks of off-and-on ****ing
around and head scratching before it finally dawned on me that the gas
smelled kinda odd, sort of like turpentine...

Finally, I dumped some on the ground and tossed a lit match at it, and found
that it would barely even support a flame.

Did wife fill up just before trouble started? Is fuel filter
clogged/restricted?

Backfire with starter fluid seems to rule out no-spark
electrical. Any chance of damage if you try this again?

also try
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=197840
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=169433

google on {saturn DOC "starting problems"} 615k results


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 12:26:57 -0800, wrote:

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 19:49:55 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote in
m:

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 10:01:59 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
6...
Larry Jaques wrote in
:

Hey, clare, don't you love the massive shotgunning this amateur has
done? Hundreds of dollars worth of parts replacement with
absolutely
-zero- satisfaction. g

I notice that you don't seem to have any more idea of what's wrong
than I do, so that comment
would seem to be somewhat out of place.

(You're in my twit file, Doug. I see your posts only when someone
quotes you. Ask Stryper for help, whydoncha?

I think it's past time that I put you in my twit-filter too, since you obviously have no clue how to
locate or fix the problem and hence have nothing to contribute beyond gratuitously
obnoxious remarks.


Perhaps you could suggest a better course of action than what I have
already described?

(You're already into it for more than a pro would have charged,

Really? So far, the total is only about $175. The tow to a shop, alone, would be 40% of that.

So you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

and a
pro would have a network of other -relevant- pros to fall back on for
advice when they came up empty. I'm certainly not saying that the
good folks here aren't knowledgeable, but I think clare is the only
-active- automotive font of knowledge here.

Clearly you aren't, at any rate.


But it's likely documented by Saturn dealers

*WHAT* Saturn dealers?

and could turn out to be
a $50 fix, or whatever their minimum is nowadays. I've been out of
the field since '86.)

No, you're not out of the field at all. You're still way out in left field.

Especially if you think you can get anybody to look at an engine for fifty bucks.

Idiot.

plonk
I think you'll find that Larry is out in -Right- field.

Correctamundo! giggle

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 12:50:40 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 19:49:55 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:


But it's likely documented by Saturn dealers

*WHAT* Saturn dealers?

He probably doesnt realize that Saturn went tits up about 5 yrs
ago.....

I have never followed GM products, period, so you're right. I do
vaguely recall hearing about it but didn't pay much attention.

GM dealers would still be handling parts and repairs of the beasts and
have the database on repair methods, so there would be the place to
go, should someone need it. Don't tell the milmac mutt.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

Larry Jaques wrote:

wrote:

I think you'll find that Larry is out in -Right- field.

Correctamundo! giggle


With the rest of the corn. ;-)

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:24:03 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 21:11:58 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 20:09:11 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 21:09:22 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote in
6:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

On 2014-02-02, Doug Miller wrote:
Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the

[ ... ]

Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail.

Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't
run.
No codes, either.

[ ... ]

And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas?

One possiblity occurs to me.

Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it?

Factory service manual says:

Prime fuel system:
a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds.
b. repeat step a twice.
c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds)
d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c.

Did that. Still doesn't start.

I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves)
for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors
aren't going to work.

Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel
comes out, not air.

Update: pulled all four plugs after about 30 seconds of cranking. Enging still won't start, but
all four plugs are wet with fuel.

So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem.

Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, since I've replaced darn near the whole
ignition system: plugs, wires, and coils.

Also: the coolant temperature sensor is a known cause of crank-but-no-start problems on
the Saturn S-series. Replaced that too -- it's only $13 -- with no effect.
You have no spark. Find out why.
Do you have 12 volts on one side of the coil primary with the key
on???

Hey, clare, don't you love the massive shotgunning this amateur has
done? Hundreds of dollars worth of parts replacement with absolutely
-zero- satisfaction. g
Sadly I know some "professionals" who are just as bad.

Ditto, and I shunned them then, too. Damned used car salesmen...


Troubleshooting is a lost art, and logical thought all but
non-existant in the general population. Sure helps to understand the
basic theory of how something works, too.

Amen. I wonder what passes for training nowadays. Are they simply
training board-replacers, or what? As teachers go the way of the
buffalo, so do intelligent students and the populace as a whole.

When the SHTF, the true cost will be told.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:27:14 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 21:14:46 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2014-02-04, Doug Miller wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

[ ... ]

Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it?

Factory service manual says:

Prime fuel system:
a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds.
b. repeat step a twice.
c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds)
d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c.

Did that. Still doesn't start.

I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves)
for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors
aren't going to work.

Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel
comes out, not air.

O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement
fuel injector is bad?

DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad?
A badly flooded cyl can flood the rest of the engine too. Has the OP
checked his oil level on the dipstick? If the injector(s) is (are)
stuck open he will be "making oil".

And what volatile oil that is! I've seen fires from a stuck float in
a carb. The rubber oil cap on a chebby 350 dented the hell out of the
hood when the crankcase ignited.


My suspicion is he grounded his injectors by pinching a wire. I've
seen it happen more than once. (never done it myself, but have had to
fix a few))

High on the list of "what shotgunning doesn't fix". g

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear
ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
wrote in
:

But crank sensor only can't tell if the belt has jumped. Some engines
(don't know about the Saturn) will not fire if the cam sensor and
crank sensor are not timed identically (to prevent damage from running
mis-timed)

The Saturn S-series engine doesn't have a cam sensor.

From Wiki

The biggest changes for 1996 were the OBDII PCM, an all new sequential fuel
injection setup that utilized a first ever "compress sense" cam sensor setup
(cam sensor input was achieved by the ignition module sensing the amount of
amperage it took to fire cylinder number 4. More amperage meant TDC
compression, less meant TDC exhaust) in lieu of a conventional camshaft
position sensor. Also full spark control (timing and firing of the ignition
coils) was achieved solely in the engine control module as opposed to the
ignition module.

On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:06:17 -0500, "Rick"
wrote:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in
:

But crank sensor only can't tell if the belt has jumped. Some engines
(don't know about the Saturn) will not fire if the cam sensor and
crank sensor are not timed identically (to prevent damage from running
mis-timed)

The Saturn S-series engine doesn't have a cam sensor.

From Wiki

The biggest changes for 1996 were the OBDII PCM, an all new sequential fuel
injection setup that utilized a first ever "compress sense" cam sensor setup
(cam sensor input was achieved by the ignition module sensing the amount of
amperage it took to fire cylinder number 4. More amperage meant TDC
compression, less meant TDC exhaust) in lieu of a conventional camshaft
position sensor. Also full spark control (timing and firing of the ignition
coils) was achieved solely in the engine control module as opposed to the
ignition module.


So if the plugs can't fire (voltage same on both cyls) due to
flooding, it shuts off the spark - or throws a "shower" of spsrts to
start the engine?

Regardless, the plugs need to be clean and dry - or replaced. Use AC
Delco plugs. - it IS a GM.

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 19:43:01 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

The OP said that when starting fluid was used it backfired out the
throttle body. In my experience as a shadetree mechanic when I
experienced backfire it was either an intake valve or valves that
didn't seal, for whatever reason, or the timing was off so that the
spark occurred when the intake valve was open. What other conditions
can cause backfiring on a fuel injected engine?

Faulty crankshaft position sensor that causes the PCM to think the crank is someplace it's not?
Greetings Doug,
Didja figger it out yet? I would really like to know what the problem
turned out to be. I'm sure others here would like to know if you got
the engine running properly. Our egos are waiting.
Cheers,
Eric

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