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OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the
codes, get only "cylinder 3 misfire". OK, plugs are old anyway, so replace all four. Now get "cylinder 3 misfire" *and* "cylinder 4 misfire". Yes, I gapped them correctly, double- checked underhood sticker and factory service manual. Pull plug wires. #3 wire and coil tower corroded. Replace all four plug wires, and wire-brush #3 coil tower. Now only "cylinder 4 misfire". Engine still runs badly rough. Coils check OK on ohmmeter, but heck, they're 18 years old, replace them anyway. No change in rough running or in codes. Hmm. Fuel problem? Pressure seems OK, so why is #4 misfiring? Disconnect #4 fuel injector. Engine runs the same with or without #4 connected. Voltage is present at all four injector connectors. Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. Service manual points at crankshaft position sensor or stuck EGR valve as possible causes. Pulled sensor, checks out OK (measures 778 ohms, spec is 700 to 900). Pulled EGR valve, not stuck. And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
Doug Miller wrote:
Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the codes, get only "cylinder 3 misfire". OK, plugs are old anyway, so replace all four. Now get "cylinder 3 misfire" *and* "cylinder 4 misfire". Yes, I gapped them correctly, double- checked underhood sticker and factory service manual. Pull plug wires. #3 wire and coil tower corroded. Replace all four plug wires, and wire-brush #3 coil tower. Now only "cylinder 4 misfire". Engine still runs badly rough. Coils check OK on ohmmeter, but heck, they're 18 years old, replace them anyway. No change in rough running or in codes. Hmm. Fuel problem? Pressure seems OK, so why is #4 misfiring? Disconnect #4 fuel injector. Engine runs the same with or without #4 connected. Voltage is present at all four injector connectors. Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. Service manual points at crankshaft position sensor or stuck EGR valve as possible causes. Pulled sensor, checks out OK (measures 778 ohms, spec is 700 to 900). Pulled EGR valve, not stuck. And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? Timing belt ? Have you done a compression check ? If it has a distributor , is the inside clean with no carbon tracks ? Did you bleed all the air from the fuel rail after you reinstalled it ? Did you miss a plug when putting it all back together ? Lots of possibilities to screw up ! -- Snag |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
"Terry Coombs" wrote in :
Doug Miller wrote: Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the codes, get only "cylinder 3 misfire". OK, plugs are old anyway, so replace all four. Now get "cylinder 3 misfire" *and* "cylinder 4 misfire". Yes, I gapped them correctly, double- checked underhood sticker and factory service manual. Pull plug wires. #3 wire and coil tower corroded. Replace all four plug wires, and wire-brush #3 coil tower. Now only "cylinder 4 misfire". Engine still runs badly rough. Coils check OK on ohmmeter, but heck, they're 18 years old, replace them anyway. No change in rough running or in codes. Hmm. Fuel problem? Pressure seems OK, so why is #4 misfiring? Disconnect #4 fuel injector. Engine runs the same with or without #4 connected. Voltage is present at all four injector connectors. Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. Service manual points at crankshaft position sensor or stuck EGR valve as possible causes. Pulled sensor, checks out OK (measures 778 ohms, spec is 700 to 900). Pulled EGR valve, not stuck. And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? Timing belt ? Chain. Have you done a compression check ? All four cylinders in spec. If it has a distributor , is the inside clean with no carbon tracks ? Ignition is totally electronic. Did you bleed all the air from the fuel rail after you reinstalled it ? No. Factory service manual doesn't mention any need to do so. Did you miss a plug when putting it all back together ? No. Remember that it ran -- but ran rough -- before I replaced the injector. I didn't touch anything in the ignition system while doing that. Lots of possibilities to screw up ! I should add that I have checked and rechecked the ignition connections to verify the correct firing order; all is well. |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
My favorite technique is a squirt of starting fluid.
If it starts and dies, you have fuel issues. If it never starts, it is ignition. -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
"Doug Miller" wrote in message ... Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the codes, get only "cylinder 3 misfire". OK, plugs are old anyway, so replace all four. Now get "cylinder 3 misfire" *and* "cylinder 4 misfire". Yes, I gapped them correctly, double- checked underhood sticker and factory service manual. Pull plug wires. #3 wire and coil tower corroded. Replace all four plug wires, and wire-brush #3 coil tower. Now only "cylinder 4 misfire". Engine still runs badly rough. Coils check OK on ohmmeter, but heck, they're 18 years old, replace them anyway. No change in rough running or in codes. Hmm. Fuel problem? Pressure seems OK, so why is #4 misfiring? Disconnect #4 fuel injector. Engine runs the same with or without #4 connected. Voltage is present at all four injector connectors. Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. Service manual points at crankshaft position sensor or stuck EGR valve as possible causes. Pulled sensor, checks out OK (measures 778 ohms, spec is 700 to 900). Pulled EGR valve, not stuck. And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? Rotor and cap? |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On Sun, 2 Feb 2014 17:26:09 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote: "Doug Miller" wrote in message .. . Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the codes, get only "cylinder 3 misfire". OK, plugs are old anyway, so replace all four. Now get "cylinder 3 misfire" *and* "cylinder 4 misfire". Yes, I gapped them correctly, double- checked underhood sticker and factory service manual. Pull plug wires. #3 wire and coil tower corroded. Replace all four plug wires, and wire-brush #3 coil tower. Now only "cylinder 4 misfire". Engine still runs badly rough. Coils check OK on ohmmeter, but heck, they're 18 years old, replace them anyway. No change in rough running or in codes. Hmm. Fuel problem? Pressure seems OK, so why is #4 misfiring? Disconnect #4 fuel injector. Engine runs the same with or without #4 connected. Voltage is present at all four injector connectors. Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. Service manual points at crankshaft position sensor or stuck EGR valve as possible causes. Pulled sensor, checks out OK (measures 778 ohms, spec is 700 to 900). Pulled EGR valve, not stuck. And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? Rotor and cap? No distributor on that vehicle (like most today, it uses Lost Spark - 2 plugs per coil) What he needs to do is confirm he has spark, and confirm injector operation and fuel pressure. Pull the plugs. Are they clean and white, wet, or black?? Check fuel pressure - is their pressure in the rail with the engine sitting? If not, is there pressure when cranking? Stethoscope on injectors - do they click when cranking?? |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
wrote in message ... On Sun, 2 Feb 2014 17:26:09 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Doug Miller" wrote in message . .. Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the codes, get only "cylinder 3 misfire". OK, plugs are old anyway, so replace all four. Now get "cylinder 3 misfire" *and* "cylinder 4 misfire". Yes, I gapped them correctly, double- checked underhood sticker and factory service manual. Pull plug wires. #3 wire and coil tower corroded. Replace all four plug wires, and wire-brush #3 coil tower. Now only "cylinder 4 misfire". Engine still runs badly rough. Coils check OK on ohmmeter, but heck, they're 18 years old, replace them anyway. No change in rough running or in codes. Hmm. Fuel problem? Pressure seems OK, so why is #4 misfiring? Disconnect #4 fuel injector. Engine runs the same with or without #4 connected. Voltage is present at all four injector connectors. Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. Service manual points at crankshaft position sensor or stuck EGR valve as possible causes. Pulled sensor, checks out OK (measures 778 ohms, spec is 700 to 900). Pulled EGR valve, not stuck. And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? Rotor and cap? No distributor on that vehicle (like most today, it uses Lost Spark - 2 plugs per coil) Okay, the reason I mention this is because I just went through pretty much the same thing with my 98 chev v6, turned out that the rotor had shorted to ground after some 248K miles. What he needs to do is confirm he has spark, Wouldn't hurt to crank it over in the dark while looking for extraneous sparks. and confirm injector operation and fuel pressure. Pull the plugs. Are they clean and white, wet, or black?? Check fuel pressure - is their pressure in the rail with the engine sitting? If not, is there pressure when cranking? Stethoscope on injectors - do they click when cranking?? |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On 2014-02-02, Doug Miller wrote:
Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the [ ... ] Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. [ ... ] And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? One possiblity occurs to me. Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it? I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves) for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors aren't going to work. Good Luck, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On 4 Feb 2014 04:59:17 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: On 2014-02-02, Doug Miller wrote: Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the [ ... ] Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. [ ... ] And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? One possiblity occurs to me. Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it? I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves) for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors aren't going to work. Good Luck, DoN. They generally self purge as they are a recirculating system (bleed-by regulator) |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
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OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
: On 2014-02-02, Doug Miller wrote: Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the [ ... ] Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. [ ... ] And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? One possiblity occurs to me. Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it? Factory service manual says: Prime fuel system: a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds. b. repeat step a twice. c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds) d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c. Did that. Still doesn't start. I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves) for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors aren't going to work. Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel comes out, not air. |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
Doug Miller wrote in
: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in : On 2014-02-02, Doug Miller wrote: Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the [ ... ] Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. [ ... ] And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? One possiblity occurs to me. Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it? Factory service manual says: Prime fuel system: a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds. b. repeat step a twice. c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds) d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c. Did that. Still doesn't start. I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves) for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors aren't going to work. Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel comes out, not air. Update: pulled all four plugs after about 30 seconds of cranking. Enging still won't start, but all four plugs are wet with fuel. So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem. Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, since I've replaced darn near the whole ignition system: plugs, wires, and coils. Also: the coolant temperature sensor is a known cause of crank-but-no-start problems on the Saturn S-series. Replaced that too -- it's only $13 -- with no effect. |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On 2/4/2014 3:09 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
.... So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem. Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, ... Haven't you checked for spark at each cylinder to prove it? -- |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On 2/4/2014 3:48 PM, dpb wrote:
On 2/4/2014 3:09 PM, Doug Miller wrote: ... So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem. Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, ... Haven't you checked for spark at each cylinder to prove it? Oh, one other issue I've had w/ particularly Champion plugs--if they ever get truly wet, they never fire reliably again. Mr Goodwrench at the truck shop in town told me that once't upon a time years ago after was having trouble after a sticky float had filled the crankcase on old 4x4 and was still having dickens of time getting it to run even after fixing carb issues and thoroughly cleaning dry plugs...replaced despite their looking almost like new and away she went... -- |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
dpb wrote in :
On 2/4/2014 3:09 PM, Doug Miller wrote: ... So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem. Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, ... Haven't you checked for spark at each cylinder to prove it? Yes, I have. One by one, pulled a plug wire off and put a spare plug in it, cranked the engine, observed spark. All four are firing. -- |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On 2/4/2014 4:24 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
wrote in : On 2/4/2014 3:09 PM, Doug Miller wrote: ... So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem. Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, ... Haven't you checked for spark at each cylinder to prove it? Yes, I have. One by one, pulled a plug wire off and put a spare plug in it, cranked the engine, observed spark. All four are firing. Then there's no point in continuing down the path of spark unless the spark is terribly weak but not non-existent. If there's fuel on the plugs after crank and you've dried them first then that would pretty-much eliminate injectors, delivery system for fuel as well. Assuming the fuel isn't contaminated, that would also seem to be eliminated as the problem. Compression (think you said it checked, don't recall for sure if this thread or another)??? Timing would be a next logical check... -- |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
dpb wrote in :
On 2/4/2014 4:24 PM, Doug Miller wrote: wrote in : On 2/4/2014 3:09 PM, Doug Miller wrote: ... So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem. Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, ... Haven't you checked for spark at each cylinder to prove it? Yes, I have. One by one, pulled a plug wire off and put a spare plug in it, cranked the engine, observed spark. All four are firing. Then there's no point in continuing down the path of spark unless the spark is terribly weak but not non-existent. If there's fuel on the plugs after crank and you've dried them first then that would pretty-much eliminate injectors, delivery system for fuel as well. Assuming the fuel isn't contaminated, that would also seem to be eliminated as the problem. Compression (think you said it checked, don't recall for sure if this thread or another)??? Yes, I did check compression. All four cylinders were within spec, and the difference between high and low was about 8 psi. Timing would be a next logical check... Agreed. The part that really puzzles me is that after replacing all that stuff in the ignition system, it still ran, just ran rough -- then would not start at all after I removed and reinstalled the injector rail. I'm starting to wonder if I buggered up a wire somewhere, while doing that? |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On 2/4/2014 4:40 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
wrote in : On 2/4/2014 4:24 PM, Doug Miller wrote: wrote in : On 2/4/2014 3:09 PM, Doug Miller wrote: ... So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem. Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, ... Haven't you checked for spark at each cylinder to prove it? Yes, I have. One by one, pulled a plug wire off and put a spare plug in it, cranked the engine, observed spark. All four are firing. Then there's no point in continuing down the path of spark unless the spark is terribly weak but not non-existent. If there's fuel on the plugs after crank and you've dried them first then that would pretty-much eliminate injectors, delivery system for fuel as well. Assuming the fuel isn't contaminated, that would also seem to be eliminated as the problem. Compression (think you said it checked, don't recall for sure if this thread or another)??? Yes, I did check compression. All four cylinders were within spec, and the difference between high and low was about 8 psi. Timing would be a next logical check... Agreed. The part that really puzzles me is that after replacing all that stuff in the ignition system, it still ran, just ran rough -- then would not start at all after I removed and reinstalled the injector rail. I'm starting to wonder if I buggered up a wire somewhere, while doing that? Always a possibility. The one thing I was coming back to mention just as an outside possiblity--the check of the plugs by using another instead of the ones in the engine leaves one with the fact you've checked the one plug is firing and that there's HV applied to the individual plugs but you haven't actually confirmed the four plugs themselves are firing. That's back to the kind of thing I mentioned above about Champion and not working well at all after having once been drowned. I'd go the extra step and actually check the plugs themselves, not just the spare. Is this the carb-injected or fully injected arrangement? Have you tried a squirt of starter fluid while cranking? -- |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
dpb wrote in :
On 2/4/2014 4:40 PM, Doug Miller wrote: wrote in : The part that really puzzles me is that after replacing all that stuff in the ignition system, it still ran, just ran rough -- then would not start at all after I removed and reinstalled the injector rail. I'm starting to wonder if I buggered up a wire somewhere, while doing that? Always a possibility. The one thing I was coming back to mention just as an outside possiblity--the check of the plugs by using another instead of the ones in the engine leaves one with the fact you've checked the one plug is firing and that there's HV applied to the individual plugs but you haven't actually confirmed the four plugs themselves are firing. That's back to the kind of thing I mentioned above about Champion and not working well at all after having once been drowned. I'd go the extra step and actually check the plugs themselves, not just the spare. I'll do that tomorrow morning and post the results. Is this the carb-injected or fully injected arrangement? Fully injected. Have you tried a squirt of starter fluid while cranking? Yes, and got a very impressive backfire through the throttle body. |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 00:36:57 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote: dpb wrote in : On 2/4/2014 4:40 PM, Doug Miller wrote: wrote in : The part that really puzzles me is that after replacing all that stuff in the ignition system, it still ran, just ran rough -- then would not start at all after I removed and reinstalled the injector rail. I'm starting to wonder if I buggered up a wire somewhere, while doing that? Always a possibility. The one thing I was coming back to mention just as an outside possiblity--the check of the plugs by using another instead of the ones in the engine leaves one with the fact you've checked the one plug is firing and that there's HV applied to the individual plugs but you haven't actually confirmed the four plugs themselves are firing. That's back to the kind of thing I mentioned above about Champion and not working well at all after having once been drowned. I'd go the extra step and actually check the plugs themselves, not just the spare. I'll do that tomorrow morning and post the results. Is this the carb-injected or fully injected arrangement? Fully injected. Have you tried a squirt of starter fluid while cranking? Yes, and got a very impressive backfire through the throttle body. Impressive backfire through the throttle body implies firing when the intake valve is open. Are you sure the timing is correct? If the timing has been changing the car would run worse and worse. It may be that the timing finally changed enough at the same time as when the fuel rail was opened and maybe that's why it no longer starts. And the starting failure at that time was just coincidental. Eric --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 18:31:22 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in : On 2014-02-02, Doug Miller wrote: Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the [ ... ] Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. [ ... ] And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? One possiblity occurs to me. Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it? Factory service manual says: Prime fuel system: a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds. b. repeat step a twice. c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds) d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c. Did that. Still doesn't start. I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves) for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors aren't going to work. Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel comes out, not air. OK - you have fuel and pressure. What do the plugs look like - wet or dry, and do you get spark??? Do you have 12 volts on one side of the injectors with the key on?? |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 21:09:22 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote: Doug Miller wrote in : "DoN. Nichols" wrote in : On 2014-02-02, Doug Miller wrote: Wife says car suddenly started running very rough on the way to work Friday. Check the [ ... ] Removed fuel rail, replaced #4 injector, reinstalled fuel rail. Now it won't start at all. Cranks OK, and sounds like it's almost catching, but it doesn't run. No codes, either. [ ... ] And at this point I am baffled. Any ideas? One possiblity occurs to me. Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it? Factory service manual says: Prime fuel system: a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds. b. repeat step a twice. c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds) d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c. Did that. Still doesn't start. I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves) for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors aren't going to work. Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel comes out, not air. Update: pulled all four plugs after about 30 seconds of cranking. Enging still won't start, but all four plugs are wet with fuel. So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem. Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, since I've replaced darn near the whole ignition system: plugs, wires, and coils. Also: the coolant temperature sensor is a known cause of crank-but-no-start problems on the Saturn S-series. Replaced that too -- it's only $13 -- with no effect. You have no spark. Find out why. Do you have 12 volts on one side of the coil primary with the key on??? |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 22:24:12 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote: dpb wrote in : On 2/4/2014 3:09 PM, Doug Miller wrote: ... So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem. Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, ... Haven't you checked for spark at each cylinder to prove it? Yes, I have. One by one, pulled a plug wire off and put a spare plug in it, cranked the engine, observed spark. All four are firing. -- OK, pull all the plugs and put them on the BarBQ for a while to thoroughly dry them. With the plugs out and the injectors disconnected, crank the engine to expell any raw fuel. Reinstall the now clean, dry, and warm plugs, re-connect the injectors, and start. |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 22:40:44 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote: dpb wrote in : On 2/4/2014 4:24 PM, Doug Miller wrote: wrote in : On 2/4/2014 3:09 PM, Doug Miller wrote: ... So that tells me I have an ignition problem, a timing problem, or an airflow problem. Don't really see how it can be an ignition problem, ... Haven't you checked for spark at each cylinder to prove it? Yes, I have. One by one, pulled a plug wire off and put a spare plug in it, cranked the engine, observed spark. All four are firing. Then there's no point in continuing down the path of spark unless the spark is terribly weak but not non-existent. If there's fuel on the plugs after crank and you've dried them first then that would pretty-much eliminate injectors, delivery system for fuel as well. Assuming the fuel isn't contaminated, that would also seem to be eliminated as the problem. Compression (think you said it checked, don't recall for sure if this thread or another)??? Yes, I did check compression. All four cylinders were within spec, and the difference between high and low was about 8 psi. Timing would be a next logical check... Agreed. The part that really puzzles me is that after replacing all that stuff in the ignition system, it still ran, just ran rough -- then would not start at all after I removed and reinstalled the injector rail. I'm starting to wonder if I buggered up a wire somewhere, while doing that? Perhaps you pinched a wire? If you pinched a "control" wire the injector will stay open. |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
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OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
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OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
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OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
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OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 01:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote: wrote in : On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 22:40:44 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: I'm starting to wonder if I buggered up a wire somewhere, while doing that? Perhaps you pinched a wire? If you pinched a "control" wire the injector will stay open. That wouldn't prevent the engine from starting, though. It sure would - and has on several occaisions. Grounding the control side of the injector holds it open, so the engine immediately floods - and does NOT start. |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
"dpb" wrote in message
... On 2/4/2014 4:24 PM, Doug Miller wrote: Timing would be a next logical check... On my 91 Ford the two crankshaft position sensor signals can be seen on a meter while turning the engine with a wrench. Plugs out, of course, and key on. One is baseline and limp-home-mode timing, the other is which pair of cylinders to fire. jsw |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On 2014-02-04, Doug Miller wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in : [ ... ] Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it? Factory service manual says: Prime fuel system: a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds. b. repeat step a twice. c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds) d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c. Did that. Still doesn't start. I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves) for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors aren't going to work. Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel comes out, not air. O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement fuel injector is bad? Good Luck, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
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OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: On 2014-02-04, Doug Miller wrote: "DoN. Nichols" wrote in : [ ... ] Doesn't the fuel rail need to be purged after disconnecting it? Factory service manual says: Prime fuel system: a. cycle ignition on for 5 seconds and then off for 10 seconds. b. repeat step a twice. c. crank engine until it starts (maximum cranking time 20 seconds) d. if engine does not start, repeat steps a-c. Did that. Still doesn't start. I think that there may be a Schrader valve (like tire filling valves) for the purpose. If you have air trapped in the fail, the injectors aren't going to work. Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel comes out, not air. O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement fuel injector is bad? DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad? -- The most powerful factors in the world are clear ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will. -- J. Arthur Thomson |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On 2014-02-05, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel comes out, not air. O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement fuel injector is bad? DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad? Well ... it stopped running at all after the injector was replaced -- so really more likely something happening to keep all the injectors on -- say a short keeping power to all four? Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On 5 Feb 2014 05:23:52 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: On 2014-02-05, Larry Jaques wrote: On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel comes out, not air. O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement fuel injector is bad? DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad? Well ... it stopped running at all after the injector was replaced -- so really more likely something happening to keep all the injectors on -- say a short keeping power to all four? While extremely unlikely, it is possible. Zebras v. horses. -- The most powerful factors in the world are clear ideas in the minds of energetic men of good will. -- J. Arthur Thomson |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
wrote in message ... On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 00:36:57 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: dpb wrote in : On 2/4/2014 4:40 PM, Doug Miller wrote: wrote in : The part that really puzzles me is that after replacing all that stuff in the ignition system, it still ran, just ran rough -- then would not start at all after I removed and reinstalled the injector rail. I'm starting to wonder if I buggered up a wire somewhere, while doing that? Always a possibility. The one thing I was coming back to mention just as an outside possiblity--the check of the plugs by using another instead of the ones in the engine leaves one with the fact you've checked the one plug is firing and that there's HV applied to the individual plugs but you haven't actually confirmed the four plugs themselves are firing. That's back to the kind of thing I mentioned above about Champion and not working well at all after having once been drowned. I'd go the extra step and actually check the plugs themselves, not just the spare. I'll do that tomorrow morning and post the results. Is this the carb-injected or fully injected arrangement? Fully injected. Have you tried a squirt of starter fluid while cranking? Yes, and got a very impressive backfire through the throttle body. Impressive backfire through the throttle body implies firing when the intake valve is open. Are you sure the timing is correct? If the timing has been changing the car would run worse and worse. It may be that the timing finally changed enough at the same time as when the fuel rail was opened and maybe that's why it no longer starts. And the starting failure at that time was just coincidental. Eric His wires are now going to the wrong plugs: ignition is now 360 deg off. |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:00:22 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: On 5 Feb 2014 05:23:52 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2014-02-05, Larry Jaques wrote: On 5 Feb 2014 04:32:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: Yes, it has a Shrader valve. There's pressure in the rail, and when I open the valve, fuel comes out, not air. O.K. Then it is purged. Is it possible that the replacement fuel injector is bad? DoN, why would all 4 plugs get fouled if only one injector was bad? Well ... it stopped running at all after the injector was replaced -- so really more likely something happening to keep all the injectors on -- say a short keeping power to all four? While extremely unlikely, it is possible. Zebras v. horses. On the Saturns..if you push the gas pedal down to the floor and hold it there while starting..its supposed to turn the injectors OFF as long as the pedal is held fully down while cranking. -- "Virtually all members of [radical] groups sincerely believe that they are fighting the Establishment. In reality they are an indespensible ally of the Establishment in fastening Socialism on all of us. The naive radicals think that under Socialism the "people" will run everything. Actually, it will be a clique of Insiders in total control, consolidating and controlling all wealth. That is why these schoolboy Lenins and teenage Trotskys are allowed to roam free and are practically never arrested or prosecuted. They are protected. If the Establishment wanted the revolutionaries stopped, how long do you think they would be tolerated? Leon Trotsky --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in
message news:n9ydnVrLAJLIeGzPnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@scnresearch. com... His wires are now going to the wrong plugs: ignition is now 360 deg off. On my Ford that woud be a symptom of a missing signal from the CPS. The computer reverts to a random guess of which coil to fire after TDC, so that it should start after a few attempts. It would be 180 degrees off, not 360. The waste spark system fires two cylinders at every top dead center. Supposedly the uncompressed hot exhaust gas in one of them doesn't absorb much of the spark energy. jsw |
OT '96 Saturn DOHC won't start
Larry Jaques wrote in
: Hey, clare, don't you love the massive shotgunning this amateur has done? Hundreds of dollars worth of parts replacement with absolutely -zero- satisfaction. g I notice that you don't seem to have any more idea of what's wrong than I do, so that comment would seem to be somewhat out of place. Perhaps you could suggest a better course of action than what I have already described? |
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