Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:25:05 -0800, mike wrote:

Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?

Once you've seen enough cheap Chiwanese crapmetals, you'll begin to
discern real, usable tools from crap pretty easily. Alternatively,
take one of their sets over to their vise sections and mount your own
screws. Try to break one right there in the store. They might not
like it much, but it's preferable to buying crap and then having to
take it back for a refund.

--
Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult,
whereas I am merely in disguise.
-- Margaret Atwood

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:34:44 PM UTC-8, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:25:05 -0800, mike wrote:



Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.

For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that

has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,

so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down

the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the

screw head.

No brainer...except.

Are they any good.

The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the

shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.



They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've

just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together

the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.



So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and

softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell

what's tough and what's not?



Once you've seen enough cheap Chiwanese crapmetals, you'll begin to

discern real, usable tools from crap pretty easily. Alternatively,

take one of their sets over to their vise sections and mount your own

screws. Try to break one right there in the store. They might not

like it much, but it's preferable to buying crap and then having to

take it back for a refund.



--

Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult,

whereas I am merely in disguise.

-- Margaret Atwood

This is the first post I've even seen from Larry Jackass that is actually good advice. However, it's good to remember that even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

On 11/10/2013 2:34 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Once you've seen enough cheap Chiwanese crapmetals, you'll begin to
discern real, usable tools from crap pretty easily.
Ok, but that's not helpful.
The objective was to learn what to look for.
And specifically, is there any chance that the shiny silver
looking stuff could be hardened?

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:16:45 PM UTC-8, mike wrote:
On 11/10/2013 2:34 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:





Once you've seen enough cheap Chiwanese crapmetals, you'll begin to

discern real, usable tools from crap pretty easily.

Ok, but that's not helpful.

The objective was to learn what to look for.

And specifically, is there any chance that the shiny silver

looking stuff could be hardened?

You can't really tell by looking. You have to test it. Larry Jackass told you to test it. That's about the best advice you're going to get. I hate to side with Larry Jackass but it's so rare he's right. Every dog has its day. This was Larry's day.

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 12:25:05 PM UTC-8, mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.

For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that

has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,

so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down

the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the

screw head.

No brainer...except.

Are they any good.

The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the

shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.



They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've

just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together

the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.



So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and

softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell

what's tough and what's not?

Stop buying names. A name means nothing these days when it comes to tools with very few exceptions. What use to be a high quality name is now no guarantee of quality. One exception I can think of off the top of my head is Festool.

http://www.festoolusa.com/

You have to test it to know. That's the only way you will ever know in today's marketplace.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:47:38 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
wrote:

However, it's good to remember that even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

And a slow one such as your self once every few hundred years.
Yodock

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:16:45 -0800, mike wrote:

On 11/10/2013 2:34 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Once you've seen enough cheap Chiwanese crapmetals, you'll begin to
discern real, usable tools from crap pretty easily.
Ok, but that's not helpful.
The objective was to learn what to look for.
And specifically, is there any chance that the shiny silver
looking stuff could be hardened?


What to look for? Well Kolbalt is in the
"For for Hobby Usage Now and Then"
catagory.

I prefer Harbor Freight...cause if I bust something..they will give me
a new one.

Not so Home Despot

Chrome plating could cover GOOD STUFF....as seen by SnapOn, Craftsman
(older) etc etc...or it could cover taffy.

Shrug

Its $6. If it breaks..you arent out much


--
Liberals want everyone to think like them.
Conservatives want everyone to think.

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On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:16:45 -0800, mike wrote:

On 11/10/2013 2:34 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Once you've seen enough cheap Chiwanese crapmetals, you'll begin to
discern real, usable tools from crap pretty easily.
Ok, but that's not helpful.

I know, but it's extremely hard to put that experience into words. It
would take weeks in a shop full of tools to show you the minutea of
what to look for. I don't think it could be done online.

If you have several hundred dollars and want to learn, go buy as many
hand tools at Harbor Freight as you can, from the cheapest on up. Once
you see some fail, you can start to learn what to look for in the
metal and the designs, but it's not instantly intuitive and it's not
easy. Post to us in a month and let us know how you fared.


The objective was to learn what to look for.

Which brings me back to my old time at the body shop, where people
would call in and ask "How much will it cost to repair my car?"
On the phone, they expected someone to tell them the repair cost of an
unseen item. g We're separated here by a little nuisance item
called "reality", mike.


And specifically, is there any chance that the shiny silver
looking stuff could be hardened?

Metal? Yeah. Take a little file in with you, covertly, and find out.
If you can file it easily, it's not hardened. If it barely scratches,
it's hardened.

P.S: Instant Gratification takes too long!

--
Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult,
whereas I am merely in disguise.
-- Margaret Atwood

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:49:27 -0500, Lt. Stacker nomail@invalid
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:47:38 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
wrote:

However, it's good to remember that even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

And a slow one such as your self once every few hundred years.
Yodock

Please don't feed the buggered trolls.

--
Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult,
whereas I am merely in disguise.
-- Margaret Atwood

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:54:56 PM UTC-8, Larry Jackass wrote:

Please don't feed the buggered trolls.

Get back on your knees, Larry.

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:53:18 PM UTC-8, Larry Jackass wrote:

Which brings me back to my old time at the body shop, where people

would call in and ask "How much will it cost to repair my car?"

On the phone, they expected someone to tell them the repair cost of an

unseen item. g We're separated here by a little nuisance item

called "reality", mike.


Larry was an body man extraordinaire.

An "expert" with chicken wire and kitty hair.



The Larry Jackass moto:

If you want the job done right you wouldn't be talking to me in the first place.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:25:05 -0800, mike wrote:

Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?


As a general statement, steel tools are plated or otherwise coated to
prevent rust so a shiny finish is meaningless. another give away is
that "Cobalt" is spelled with a "C" and not a "K".

It is, by the way, "A hard, brittle metallic element, found
associated with nickel, silver, lead, copper, and iron ores and
resembling nickel and iron in appearance. It is used chiefly for
magnetic alloys, high-temperature alloys..." and "hard, brittle"
hardly seem appropriate qualities for a tool (except maybe a glass
cutter :-).
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/10/2013 9:48 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:25:05 -0800, mike wrote:

Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?


As a general statement, steel tools are plated or otherwise coated to
prevent rust so a shiny finish is meaningless. another give away is
that "Cobalt" is spelled with a "C" and not a "K".

Kobalt is a brand name and has nothing to do with the metal Cobalt.

It is, by the way, "A hard, brittle metallic element, found
associated with nickel, silver, lead, copper, and iron ores and
resembling nickel and iron in appearance. It is used chiefly for
magnetic alloys, high-temperature alloys..." and "hard, brittle"
hardly seem appropriate qualities for a tool (except maybe a glass
cutter :-).

well, in the case of a #4 Torx, I'd much rather have a tool shatter
than round off the tiny corners and take the head of the screw with it.
The tool, I can replace. The mangled screw stuck in a $300 gizmo, not
so much.

In summary, nobody has a shred of useful advice.
Thanks..I tried...

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:23:21 -0800, mike wrote:

On 11/10/2013 9:48 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:25:05 -0800, mike wrote:

Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?


As a general statement, steel tools are plated or otherwise coated to
prevent rust so a shiny finish is meaningless. another give away is
that "Cobalt" is spelled with a "C" and not a "K".

Kobalt is a brand name and has nothing to do with the metal Cobalt.

It is, by the way, "A hard, brittle metallic element, found
associated with nickel, silver, lead, copper, and iron ores and
resembling nickel and iron in appearance. It is used chiefly for
magnetic alloys, high-temperature alloys..." and "hard, brittle"
hardly seem appropriate qualities for a tool (except maybe a glass
cutter :-).

well, in the case of a #4 Torx, I'd much rather have a tool shatter
than round off the tiny corners and take the head of the screw with it.
The tool, I can replace. The mangled screw stuck in a $300 gizmo, not
so much.

In summary, nobody has a shred of useful advice.
Thanks..I tried...

Advice..you got lots of it. You just didnt get what you wanted to
hear.


Want some real advice? Dont buy Kobalt if you want GOOD stuff.

https://www.kctoolco.com/SearchResul...driver&x=0&y=0

http://www.kctoolco.com/Precision-To...mm-p/26704.htm

http://www.kctoolco.com/Torx-ESD-Sof...T4-p/36204.htm

Wiha is some of the absolute best. And a single small driver is
$5-7.50

You DO realize that T4 is damned hard to find, right? Most companies
start at T5 and go bigger from there.

Buy Wiha..and you know you are getting the absolute best.

Buy Kobalt..and you will be on a newsgroup asking guys about if its
gonna bust or not.

And yes...an awful lot of cellphones have T4 holding them together.

Gunner



--
Liberals want everyone to think like them.
Conservatives want everyone to think.

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On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:23:21 -0800, mike wrote:

On 11/10/2013 9:48 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:25:05 -0800, mike wrote:

Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?


As a general statement, steel tools are plated or otherwise coated to
prevent rust so a shiny finish is meaningless. another give away is
that "Cobalt" is spelled with a "C" and not a "K".

Kobalt is a brand name and has nothing to do with the metal Cobalt.

It is, by the way, "A hard, brittle metallic element, found
associated with nickel, silver, lead, copper, and iron ores and
resembling nickel and iron in appearance. It is used chiefly for
magnetic alloys, high-temperature alloys..." and "hard, brittle"
hardly seem appropriate qualities for a tool (except maybe a glass
cutter :-).

well, in the case of a #4 Torx, I'd much rather have a tool shatter
than round off the tiny corners and take the head of the screw with it.
The tool, I can replace. The mangled screw stuck in a $300 gizmo, not
so much.

In summary, nobody has a shred of useful advice.
Thanks..I tried...

and so did we... You're welcome :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/10/2013 3:25 PM, mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.

Are they any good.

I purchased a set of Kobalt Torx drivers recently. I needed them and
Lowes was open. My first use of the T10 driver twisted it into a spiral.
I would not advise anyone to buy Kobalt tools.

Kevin Gallimore

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:23:21 -0800, mike wrote:

On 11/10/2013 9:48 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:25:05 -0800, mike wrote:

Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?


As a general statement, steel tools are plated or otherwise coated to
prevent rust so a shiny finish is meaningless. another give away is
that "Cobalt" is spelled with a "C" and not a "K".

Kobalt is a brand name and has nothing to do with the metal Cobalt.

True. g And HF's Pittsburgh tools weren't made there.


It is, by the way, "A hard, brittle metallic element, found
associated with nickel, silver, lead, copper, and iron ores and
resembling nickel and iron in appearance. It is used chiefly for
magnetic alloys, high-temperature alloys..." and "hard, brittle"
hardly seem appropriate qualities for a tool (except maybe a glass
cutter :-).

well, in the case of a #4 Torx, I'd much rather have a tool shatter
than round off the tiny corners and take the head of the screw with it.
The tool, I can replace. The mangled screw stuck in a $300 gizmo, not
so much.

Ditto.


In summary, nobody has a shred of useful advice.

Translation: The little kid (of whatever age) didn't get the instant
answer he was after and it's now time to pout.


Thanks..I tried...

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, ingrate.

--
Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult,
whereas I am merely in disguise.
-- Margaret Atwood

On Monday, November 11, 2013 12:23:21 AM UTC-8, mike wrote:

In summary, nobody has a shred of useful advice.

Thanks..I tried...


You got great advice.

Do you use a kill file? If so, please add me.

On 11/11/2013 5:13 AM, axolotl wrote:
On 11/10/2013 3:25 PM, mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.

Are they any good.

I purchased a set of Kobalt Torx drivers recently. I needed them and
Lowes was open. My first use of the T10 driver twisted it into a spiral.
I would not advise anyone to buy Kobalt tools.

Kevin Gallimore

There you go.
Real world experience.
Thank you very much.

mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?

They don't know how to spell "cobalt".

That should tell you something...

Jim Stewart wrote:
mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?

They don't know how to spell "cobalt".

That should tell you something...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobalt_(tools)

Cydrome Leader fired this volley in news:l5rl7e
:

They don't know how to spell "cobalt".

I dunno... I don't think all their tools are good, but you can tell by
looking at the fit, finish, and general cosmetics of most tools to tell
if they're any good. The only thing you can't surmise by looking is the
quality of the metal.

I don't have a lot of them... mostly pliars and wrenches. But they're at
least as good as any other retail tools I've bought. The metal is
strong, properly hardened and tempered, and the articles fit well.

Where are you going to buy better at retail?

Lloyd

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.

They don't know how to spell "cobalt".

That should tell you something...

Or we don't:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold

Many elements have Germanic common names. Using Latin symbols for them
avoids international fights.

jsw

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:20:30 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?

They don't know how to spell "cobalt".

That should tell you something...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobalt_(tools)


"Kobalt is a line of tools owned by the American home improvement
chain Lowe's as their house brand for both Lowe's in North America and
their joint venture Masters Home Improvement in Australia.

Lowe's and manufacturing partner J.H. Williams launched Kobalt in
1998,[1] with the intention of competing against rival retailers Sears
and The Home Depot and their respective Craftsman and Husky tool
brands.[2] Since 2003, Kobalt hand tools have largely been made by the
Danaher Corporation.[3][4] Previously made in the USA, initially by
Snap-on's JH Williams brand, Kobalt sockets and wrenches are now made
in Taiwan, while pliers and other tools are made in China."

So the early ones were made by a good company...now they are made in
Taiwan and China.

I wonder if he wanted to learn that?

Probably not.

Wiha....good tools.

Gunner

--
Liberals want everyone to think like them.
Conservatives want everyone to think.

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:59:41 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Gunner Asch gunnerasch AT gmail.com wrote:

Its $6. If it breaks..you arent out much

That's actually pretty good advice. Buy a set, use it for
a couple of months (not on anything important), and get
back to us with your experience. I'm curious to know
the answer to your question.

That said, I wouldn't buy screwdrivers with anything but
the Craftsman or Stanley name on them. And I never buy
tools from a no-name Chinese manufacturer if I can avoid it.

But who knows? Good stuff *can* come from China if there's
real quality control behind it.

err... Stanley tools are made in China, aren't they?

--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. fired this volley in
:

err... Stanley tools are made in China, aren't they?

Yeah... AND many Snap-On tools, now.

Kobalt tools were made in the same US plant as Snap-On -- for a while.
Then they both defected.

And FWIW, Stanley hand tools now come in at the barest bottom-of-the-
barrel quality for "Name Brand" tools. There are lots of no-name brands
that beat them in life and utility, and for a lot less money.



Lloyd

On 11/11/2013 4:28 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:20:30 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?

They don't know how to spell "cobalt".

That should tell you something...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobalt_(tools)


"Kobalt is a line of tools owned by the American home improvement
chain Lowe's as their house brand for both Lowe's in North America and
their joint venture Masters Home Improvement in Australia.

Lowe's and manufacturing partner J.H. Williams launched Kobalt in
1998,[1] with the intention of competing against rival retailers Sears
and The Home Depot and their respective Craftsman and Husky tool
brands.[2] Since 2003, Kobalt hand tools have largely been made by the
Danaher Corporation.[3][4] Previously made in the USA, initially by
Snap-on's JH Williams brand, Kobalt sockets and wrenches are now made
in Taiwan, while pliers and other tools are made in China."

So the early ones were made by a good company...now they are made in
Taiwan and China.

I wonder if he wanted to learn that?

Why would you wonder? Would the answer have impeded your missive?

Probably not.
Ok,so you answered your question. Failed to impede your missive.

Why would you put words in my mouth anyway?

Of all the bluff and bluster in this thread, there was exactly
ONE person who related ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with the EXACT tool I was
considering. Case closed. Not bought! Thanks.
Did I mention, CASE CLOSED?


Since you're the fount of all knowledge...
Riddle me this...
Is there any reason that Taiwan and China can't make quality stuff?
They get painted with the broad crap brush.
I understand that we get crap because we're only willing to pay for crap.
BUT,
is there any fundamental technical reason that people in one particular
country
can't/won't/don't make any quality stuff? Ever?



Wiha....good tools.
Yeah, but unrelated to the question about Kobalt.

Gunner

--
Liberals want everyone to think like them.
Conservatives want everyone to think.

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:41 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:20:30 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?

They don't know how to spell "cobalt".

That should tell you something...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobalt_(tools)


"Kobalt is a line of tools owned by the American home improvement
chain Lowe's as their house brand for both Lowe's in North America and
their joint venture Masters Home Improvement in Australia.

Lowe's and manufacturing partner J.H. Williams launched Kobalt in
1998,[1] with the intention of competing against rival retailers Sears
and The Home Depot and their respective Craftsman and Husky tool
brands.[2] Since 2003, Kobalt hand tools have largely been made by the
Danaher Corporation.[3][4] Previously made in the USA, initially by
Snap-on's JH Williams brand, Kobalt sockets and wrenches are now made
in Taiwan, while pliers and other tools are made in China."

Danaher still makes most of NAPA's stuff. I couldn't replace my 1/4"
screwdriver-like socket driver (with rear 1/4" female socket) through
Crapsman and they finally gave me some bucks and I found the item at
NAPA.

POS without socket:
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-6-in-...p-00943393000P

Well-built NAPA driver: (not the one I received)
http://www.napaonline.com/catalog/ca...277_0006395328


So the early ones were made by a good company...now they are made in
Taiwan and China.

I'd be willing to bet that the Taiwanese wrenches and sockets were
pretty darned well made. It's the Chinese stuff you have to worry
about nowadays. I think some were made with melted rebar... But HF's
lifetime-warranted Pittsburgh lines have been really nice in my
experience. With the exception of the small, super-cheap 1/4 and 3/8"
set going for under ten bucks. (Those are likely rebar remelts.) I
have no idea why HF gave them the Pittsburgh name. You can see that
they're horribly made, and that's bad.


I wonder if he wanted to learn that?

Probably not.

g


Wiha....good tools.

_If_ you're rich enough to afford them. $$$$

--
Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult,
whereas I am merely in disguise.
-- Margaret Atwood

On 2013-11-11, John B wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:25:05 -0800, mike wrote:

Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?


As a general statement, steel tools are plated or otherwise coated to
prevent rust so a shiny finish is meaningless. another give away is
that "Cobalt" is spelled with a "C" and not a "K".

Agreed. It is intended to *sound* impressive. :-)

It is, by the way, "A hard, brittle metallic element, found
associated with nickel, silver, lead, copper, and iron ores and
resembling nickel and iron in appearance. It is used chiefly for
magnetic alloys, high-temperature alloys..." and "hard, brittle"
hardly seem appropriate qualities for a tool (except maybe a glass
cutter :-).

Well ... Cobalt alone, no. But the better drill bits (and some
other tools, including lathe bits and parting tool bits) are a HSS alloy
with Cobalt as a component (high Cobalt). The steel looks a little
yellowish -- not as extreme as a TiN coating, but less white than plain
HSS.

When I buy an index of bits I expect to use a lot (e.g. my index
of number sized (wire sized) bits in screw machine length with 135
degree split points is a Cobalt steel.

As an example, go into the MSC site, and look at the
"Metalworking" sales flyer:

http://www.mscdirect.com/FlyerView?contentPath=/sales-catalogs/metalworking

and at the top of page 9 you will find "Hertel Drill Sets", and go down
into the table where it lists "Screw Machine Drills", to the next to the
last -- 60 Cobalt 135 degree split, Wire #1-60 currently on sale for
$99.99. Compare that to the next one up, same size set, but "HSS-Oxide"
which is currently selling for $64.99.

They just call them "Cobalt" -- but in reality, they are a
different HSS alloy which has a higher percentage of Cobalt in the
steel.

Down at the bottom of the same page, they have a summary of why
Cobalt steel is preferred for some things.

And I like the screw-machine length bits, because they are shorter
and have less flex -- as long as I don't need the full depth that a
jobber length bit will give -- and I usually *don't* need it.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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On 2013-11-12, mike wrote:
On 11/11/2013 4:28 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

So the early ones were made by a good company...now they are made in
Taiwan and China.

[ ... ]

Since you're the fount of all knowledge...
Riddle me this...
Is there any reason that Taiwan and China can't make quality stuff?
They get painted with the broad crap brush.
I understand that we get crap because we're only willing to pay for crap.
BUT,
is there any fundamental technical reason that people in one particular
country
can't/won't/don't make any quality stuff? Ever?

Well ... I remember when tools from Japan were cheap -- drill
bits made of "butter steel", and so on. At the time, they were making
excellent cameras (and cheap ones). I figured that they made good
tools, but nobody was importing those, because the cost would be similar
to tools made in the USA at the same period.

[ ... ]

Wiha....good tools.
Yeah, but unrelated to the question about Kobalt.

Strongly related to the *implied* question of "What do I get if
I want *good* tools -- in particular good small size torx screwdrivers
or wrenches?" (Which perhaps should have been made explicit.) I keep a
number of Wiha small screwdrivers in my belt pouch, including Torx,
straight and Phillips blades. And larger ones at my electronics
workbench.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:04 -0800, mike wrote:

On 11/11/2013 4:28 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:20:30 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?

They don't know how to spell "cobalt".

That should tell you something...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobalt_(tools)


"Kobalt is a line of tools owned by the American home improvement
chain Lowe's as their house brand for both Lowe's in North America and
their joint venture Masters Home Improvement in Australia.

Lowe's and manufacturing partner J.H. Williams launched Kobalt in
1998,[1] with the intention of competing against rival retailers Sears
and The Home Depot and their respective Craftsman and Husky tool
brands.[2] Since 2003, Kobalt hand tools have largely been made by the
Danaher Corporation.[3][4] Previously made in the USA, initially by
Snap-on's JH Williams brand, Kobalt sockets and wrenches are now made
in Taiwan, while pliers and other tools are made in China."

So the early ones were made by a good company...now they are made in
Taiwan and China.

I wonder if he wanted to learn that?

Why would you wonder? Would the answer have impeded your missive?

Which missive would that be? Whirled Peas? Kill the Leftwingers? Some
tools are suspect or utter crap?

Probably not.
Ok,so you answered your question. Failed to impede your missive.

Why would you put words in my mouth anyway?

Because you act and talk like a snot nosed little boy.
Now stamp your widdle feet, put a finger in each ear and dance in
circles screaming at the top of your lungs.".Im wight! Im Wight"
We need a little amusement around here these days. Usually its
politics and machining...having a mouthy little **** spewing
buffoonery about tools is a change of pace.

Of all the bluff and bluster in this thread, there was exactly
ONE person who related ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with the EXACT tool I was
considering. Case closed. Not bought! Thanks.
Did I mention, CASE CLOSED?

Only in your dreams.

I have at least 4 sets of miniature Torx drivers. The only one that
is still complete is the Wiha. The only ones I find in quality
assembly shops are Wiha, SnapOn and others of the same specs.

I occasionally find Kobalt, Harbor Freight, Kmart and other brands of
similar drivers n the machine shops and factories that I service.

But ..and its a big but...they wont be in complete sets because they
have busted/stripped/ruined all the small ones...and a surprising
number of the big ones too. Ive found a fair number of them with vise
grip marks on the shanks. Which is why I carry Torx drivers that are
used with a 1/4" ratchet or a 3/8" ratchet..and are of a very high
quality nature. If I screw up either the socket or the part at 10:30
at night...the job stops right then or there until the following day
when I have stores open that might..might have a replacement part.

As a side note......What do you think they put carbide inserts into
tool holders with? A staple gun?


Since you're the fount of all knowledge...
Riddle me this...
Is there any reason that Taiwan and China can't make quality stuff?
They get painted with the broad crap brush.
I understand that we get crap because we're only willing to pay for crap.
BUT,
is there any fundamental technical reason that people in one particular
country
can't/won't/don't make any quality stuff? Ever?

Oh the Taiwanese and the Chinks make very very good stuff and it
appears in machine shops all over America along with showing up in the
US Army and so on and so forth. They can make high quality gear of
all types. I buy a LOT of Chink stuff. Some of which costs $100,000
or more per each.

That being said... you are not likely to find it at Home Despot on
sale for $6 for 10 pieces.

I can order high quality Chicom made stuff and do..each and every day.
I just dont find it at discount stores.

Which is why I gently mentioned Wiha and said it was
"good **** Maynard". And I mentioned that a single T4 driver was
gonna cost you $4-8 or similar. And there will be no question about
chrome or no chrome. Its quite good no matter what its been coated
with. Black oxide or Chrome....shrug.

You keep asking in effect..whats better for the important business you
have to perform.......a Yugo thats chrome plated or one thats been
painted. Its STILL A ****ING YUGO!!!


Wiha....good tools.
Yeah, but unrelated to the question about Kobalt.

You wanted tools that wouldnt break/deform/flatten/chip/peel or come
un****ed in your use. I answered

Its very related. You arent much of a thinker there are you fellah?

If you want to perform a task that requires good tools..you dont run
down to the cheap tool store and look for whats on sale..and then ****
and moan about chrome plated versus non chrome plated. You buy the
Good Tools from the start and then put it out of your mind..because
you have Good Tools and dont have to worry about them anymore.

I have a ****load of cheap tools. Lots of them from Harbor Freight
too. And they tend to hold up fine..when there is some meat in them.
A T4 torx driver is ****ing small and given the difficulty that many
import companies have with making small tools that will hold up under
loaded use...its a given that a thinking man would buy tools that have
a long history of holding up under intended uses and not **** around
with unknown quality ****. Particularly when its tiny and you have
(1) chance of getting that screw/bolt out and you cant drill the
****er out..you cant grab it with vise-grips and you cant grind off
the head.

Now smart mouth..was there any further questions? If all you are going
to do is continue to thump your chest and act offended when real
people who work professionally with tools EVERY ****ING DAY and have
done so professionally for 4 decades or more tell you that you are
buying a pig in a poke..and a muddy pig at that when you buy delicate
tools from Kolbalt from HomeDespot...thats quite up to you. Your
choice. Take the advice or leave it. Its not a hair on any of our
asses or my ass if you do or dont...or if you utterly ****up the job
you are buying taffy screwdrivers for.

Shrug

Gunner

--
Liberals want everyone to think like them.
Conservatives want everyone to think.

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On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 19:02:25 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:41 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:20:30 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?

They don't know how to spell "cobalt".

That should tell you something...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobalt_(tools)


"Kobalt is a line of tools owned by the American home improvement
chain Lowe's as their house brand for both Lowe's in North America and
their joint venture Masters Home Improvement in Australia.

Lowe's and manufacturing partner J.H. Williams launched Kobalt in
1998,[1] with the intention of competing against rival retailers Sears
and The Home Depot and their respective Craftsman and Husky tool
brands.[2] Since 2003, Kobalt hand tools have largely been made by the
Danaher Corporation.[3][4] Previously made in the USA, initially by
Snap-on's JH Williams brand, Kobalt sockets and wrenches are now made
in Taiwan, while pliers and other tools are made in China."

Danaher still makes most of NAPA's stuff. I couldn't replace my 1/4"
screwdriver-like socket driver (with rear 1/4" female socket) through
Crapsman and they finally gave me some bucks and I found the item at
NAPA.

POS without socket:
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-6-in-...p-00943393000P

Well-built NAPA driver: (not the one I received)
http://www.napaonline.com/catalog/ca...277_0006395328


So the early ones were made by a good company...now they are made in
Taiwan and China.

I'd be willing to bet that the Taiwanese wrenches and sockets were
pretty darned well made. It's the Chinese stuff you have to worry
about nowadays. I think some were made with melted rebar... But HF's
lifetime-warranted Pittsburgh lines have been really nice in my
experience. With the exception of the small, super-cheap 1/4 and 3/8"
set going for under ten bucks. (Those are likely rebar remelts.) I
have no idea why HF gave them the Pittsburgh name. You can see that
they're horribly made, and that's bad.

Most of HF low end stuff is now made in India. Just a heads up.

I wonder if he wanted to learn that?

Probably not.

g


Wiha....good tools.

_If_ you're rich enough to afford them. $$$$

If all you need is (1) for an important task....you buy a Good One..
And you can buy a set cheap enough if you hunt around. Even a good
used set of Wiha/SnapOn etc etc is better than a new set from a
discount house for $6 for 10. Hell..Ive got an unopened package of
Home Despot Torx drivers in the electronics shop. Its hanging unopened
on the wall in case I bust one of the Harbor Freight ones. And I
bought it on sale for $3.95 2 yrs ago after the Christmas sales were
over. They were clearing stock. But if I have to take something
delicate and quality apart...out comes the Wiha.

If you are buying a claw hammer...its hard to **** up even if buying a
cheap one. Ive not seen a broken claw Chicom hammer in 15 yrs.

Its delicate stuff that requires good material selection, good heat
treating and quality manufacturing that is in question here. I
managed to bust a HF box end wrench not long ago. 5/8" and it took a
4' cheater pipe to do it. Then I found out the ****er was left
handed...sigh. But HF replaced it, no questions asked.

Gunner


--
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Conservatives want everyone to think.

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On 12 Nov 2013 06:12:42 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2013-11-12, mike wrote:
On 11/11/2013 4:28 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

So the early ones were made by a good company...now they are made in
Taiwan and China.

[ ... ]

Since you're the fount of all knowledge...
Riddle me this...
Is there any reason that Taiwan and China can't make quality stuff?
They get painted with the broad crap brush.
I understand that we get crap because we're only willing to pay for crap.
BUT,
is there any fundamental technical reason that people in one particular
country
can't/won't/don't make any quality stuff? Ever?

Well ... I remember when tools from Japan were cheap -- drill
bits made of "butter steel", and so on. At the time, they were making
excellent cameras (and cheap ones). I figured that they made good
tools, but nobody was importing those, because the cost would be similar
to tools made in the USA at the same period.


And while you were being sold the "butter steel" drills I was buying
wood working tools that had blades made like the swords - a slice of
almost tool grade steel sandwiched between two slices of mild steel
and forge welded into one piece. You could sharpen the plane blades
until you could literally shave with them and they held an edge better
then anything I've seen since. Not cheap but not breathtakingly
expensive either.

See, the Japs and likely the Chinese think that y'all want cheap tools
so that is what they make for you, and you buy them. The growth of
Harbor Freight has been phenomenal - they are now a billion dollar
business. Selling cheap stuff.





[ ... ]

Wiha....good tools.
Yeah, but unrelated to the question about Kobalt.

Strongly related to the *implied* question of "What do I get if
I want *good* tools -- in particular good small size torx screwdrivers
or wrenches?" (Which perhaps should have been made explicit.) I keep a
number of Wiha small screwdrivers in my belt pouch, including Torx,
straight and Phillips blades. And larger ones at my electronics
workbench.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Cheers,

John B.

"mike" wrote in message
...
Is there any reason that Taiwan and China can't make quality stuff?
They get painted with the broad crap brush.
I understand that we get crap because we're only willing to pay for
crap.
BUT,
is there any fundamental technical reason that people in one
particular country
can't/won't/don't make any quality stuff? Ever?

Industrial customers who insist on and check for quality can get it
from them.
jsw

On 2013-11-12, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"mike" wrote in message
...
Is there any reason that Taiwan and China can't make quality stuff?
They get painted with the broad crap brush.
I understand that we get crap because we're only willing to pay for
crap.
BUT,
is there any fundamental technical reason that people in one
particular country
can't/won't/don't make any quality stuff? Ever?

Industrial customers who insist on and check for quality can get it
from them.

There is no magic to making good wrenches and the Chinese are
certainly capable of doing so. I (we) use wrenches a lot and never had
problems with Harbor Freight combination wrenches.

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Nov 2013 01:18:01 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Its delicate stuff that requires good material selection, good heat
treating and quality manufacturing that is in question here. I
managed to bust a HF box end wrench not long ago. 5/8" and it took a
4' cheater pipe to do it. Then I found out the ****er was left
handed...sigh.

Which was left handed? The 5/8 box end wrench, or the cheater
pipe?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:52:18 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Nov 2013 01:18:01 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Its delicate stuff that requires good material selection, good heat
treating and quality manufacturing that is in question here. I
managed to bust a HF box end wrench not long ago. 5/8" and it took a
4' cheater pipe to do it. Then I found out the ****er was left
handed...sigh.

Which was left handed? The 5/8 box end wrench, or the cheater
pipe?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

It was a right handed pipe used on a left handed bolt...and that bolt
wasnt marked with an L ..damnit!!

Grumble grumble. Now I got to stock a lefthanded snipe in the
truck...grumble grumble....


--
Liberals want everyone to think like them.
Conservatives want everyone to think.

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Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Nov 2013 09:45:05 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:52:18 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Nov 2013 01:18:01 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Its delicate stuff that requires good material selection, good heat
treating and quality manufacturing that is in question here. I
managed to bust a HF box end wrench not long ago. 5/8" and it took a
4' cheater pipe to do it. Then I found out the ****er was left
handed...sigh.

Which was left handed? The 5/8 box end wrench, or the cheater
pipe?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

It was a right handed pipe used on a left handed bolt...and that bolt
wasnt marked with an L ..damnit!!

Grumble grumble. Now I got to stock a lefthanded snipe in the
truck...grumble grumble....

Just be glad you don't have to stock one in Metric sizes as well.

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:20:30 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
mike wrote:
Lowes has a sale on Kobalt tools.
For $6 you can get a screwdriver kit that
has torx bits down to size 4. And they're smaller shank,
so the bit holder has smaller diameter and will fit down
the deep hole in the plastic of some devices to access the
screw head.
No brainer...except.
Are they any good.
The bits are shiny silver. My experience has been that the
shiny silver bits are much softer than the dull black ones.

They're guaranteed for life, but that's no help if you've
just stripped the head of that #4 Torx screw holding together
the $300 gizmo you're trying to repair.

So, is there any correlation between shiny silver surface and
softness for screwdriver bits? In the store, how do you tell
what's tough and what's not?

They don't know how to spell "cobalt".

That should tell you something...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobalt_(tools)


"Kobalt is a line of tools owned by the American home improvement
chain Lowe's as their house brand for both Lowe's in North America and
their joint venture Masters Home Improvement in Australia.

Lowe's and manufacturing partner J.H. Williams launched Kobalt in
1998,[1] with the intention of competing against rival retailers Sears
and The Home Depot and their respective Craftsman and Husky tool
brands.[2] Since 2003, Kobalt hand tools have largely been made by the
Danaher Corporation.[3][4] Previously made in the USA, initially by
Snap-on's JH Williams brand, Kobalt sockets and wrenches are now made
in Taiwan, while pliers and other tools are made in China."

So the early ones were made by a good company...now they are made in
Taiwan and China.

I wonder if he wanted to learn that?

Probably not.

Wiha....good tools.

The germans still churn out top notch tools.

Wiha for screwdrivers (if you can tolerate rubber grippy stuff, I can't
though)

Knipex for pliers

Xcelite and Klein screwdrivers are still made in the US to what appears to
be the same high standards as they always have been. Diamond was nice too,
but they don't seem to exist anymore.