When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there
to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?

"asdfasdf" wrote in message
...
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there
to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_...ocking_washers

On 6/6/2013 10:51 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"asdfasdf" wrote in message
...
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there
to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_...ocking_washers




Wikipedia ruins everything. I was expecting a big argument to start.

"asdfasdf" wrote in message
news
On 6/6/2013 10:51 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"asdfasdf" wrote in message
...
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there
to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_...ocking_washers




Wikipedia ruins everything. I was expecting a big argument to start.

Well, I'd say it depends...for instance, a soft washer with a large diameter
(fender washer) likely would provide more friction against the material
being bolted and so I have to at least
partially disagree with wiki on this..

It depends on the need.

If you are locking a nut to the base metal it is locking to -
use s star / split / double star / spring etc then the nut or a washer
and a nut. The washer spreads the presser across the nut and allows
it to rotate freely.

If you are trying to lock the nut and the thread then
you are trying to put side pressure on the nut....

Sometimes it is two nuts together with a washer.

Many uses.

Martin

On 6/6/2013 10:03 PM, asdfasdf wrote:
On 6/6/2013 10:51 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"asdfasdf" wrote in message
...
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there
to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_...ocking_washers





Wikipedia ruins everything. I was expecting a big argument to start.

On 06/06/2013 08:03 PM, asdfasdf wrote:
On 6/6/2013 10:51 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"asdfasdf" wrote in message
...
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there
to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_...ocking_washers





Wikipedia ruins everything. I was expecting a big argument to start.

Despite what wiki says, I frequently use (and see used) a split lock
washer between a nut/bolt head and a flat washer. Even though it isn't
going to "bite" into the object being held or the nut/bolt head, it
still provides a longitudinal force to help keep it from becoming
unfastened.

Jon

On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 19:51:22 -0700, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"asdfasdf" wrote in message
...
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done a
million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the purpose
of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there to dig in a bit
to the object and the nut to keep it from loosening. The flat washer
seems like it would allow the lock washer to rotate without digging in
to the object.

Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_%28hardware%
29#Spring_and_locking_washers

It may be worth a more extensive search. A mechanical engineer I know,
whose a very sharp guy, told me that someone did a study and determined
that split washers work because they act as springs that keep the tension
on the threads in one direction.

Wikipedia is not always a reliable source.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

There are numerous views regarding the in/effectiveness of split style
lockwashers.

One sure way to be certain is to use the proper Loctite or similar thread
locking product.
Another option is to use nylock or other types of self-locking nuts..
although this may be more costly than threadlocking products, and some types
are considered OTU one-time-use only.

--
WB
..........


"asdfasdf" wrote in message
...
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there
to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?

On 6/7/2013 11:35 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 19:51:22 -0700, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

wrote in message
...
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done a
million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the purpose
of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there to dig in a bit
to the object and the nut to keep it from loosening. The flat washer
seems like it would allow the lock washer to rotate without digging in
to the object.

Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_%28hardware%
29#Spring_and_locking_washers

It may be worth a more extensive search. A mechanical engineer I know,
whose a very sharp guy, told me that someone did a study and determined
that split washers work because they act as springs that keep the tension
on the threads in one direction.

Wikipedia is not always a reliable source.



Then edit the page so that it is more reliable...

On Thursday, June 6, 2013 10:34:32 PM UTC-4, asdfasdf wrote:
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat

washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done

a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the

purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there

to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from

loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the

lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.



Anyone know?

Some simply consider split ring washers to be the work of the devil.

I found this looking for a more extensive set of videos of bolts loosening, and the test rig used.

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/jun...ringwasher.htm

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/hel...ingwashers.htm

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/vibloose.htm

On 6/7/2013 1:39 PM, wrote:
....

Some simply consider split ring washers to be the work of the devil.

I found this looking for a more extensive set of videos of bolts
loosening, and the test rig used.

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/jun...ringwasher.htm
....

I didn't watch the rest; I notice they didn't say anything about the
torque applied on the test. Didn't appear to me it was more than just
"snugged down" rather than really torqued, but who's to know--they
cleverly didn't the applicator so can't even judge by looking the amount
of effort or size of ratchet, etc. While it may have been optical
delusion, looked to me like the bolt turned as well which wouldn't
indicate being very tight.

I don't have any scientific evidence but 50+ yr practical use on farm
indicates to me they serve a useful purpose.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 6/7/2013 1:39 PM, wrote:
...

Some simply consider split ring washers to be the work of the devil.

I found this looking for a more extensive set of videos of bolts
loosening, and the test rig used.

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/jun...ringwasher.htm
...

I didn't watch the rest; I notice they didn't say anything about the
torque applied on the test. Didn't appear to me it was more than just
"snugged down" rather than really torqued, but who's to know--they
cleverly didn't the applicator so can't even judge by looking the amount
of effort or size of ratchet, etc. While it may have been optical
delusion, looked to me like the bolt turned as well which wouldn't
indicate being very tight.

I don't have any scientific evidence but 50+ yr practical use on farm
indicates to me they serve a useful purpose.

--

I was impressed by this test at first, but then I realized looking at the
graph ( http://www.boltscience.com/pages/hel...ingwashers.htm ) that the
major difference occurs only after the bolt is already too loose. The plots
diverge only after the bolt has already lost half its preload. They really
need to concentrate on the very first part of the curve where the bolt
starts to loosen. If you look closely, there is some indication one curve is
much steeper than the other at the start, but it is impossible to tell which
it is. Maybe they need to dial back the shaking a bit to be able to measure
that part of the curve better.

"anorton" wrote in message
m...

"dpb" wrote in message
...
On 6/7/2013 1:39 PM, wrote:
...

Some simply consider split ring washers to be the work of the devil.

I found this looking for a more extensive set of videos of bolts
loosening, and the test rig used.

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/jun...ringwasher.htm
...

I didn't watch the rest; I notice they didn't say anything about the
torque applied on the test. Didn't appear to me it was more than just
"snugged down" rather than really torqued, but who's to know--they
cleverly didn't the applicator so can't even judge by looking the amount
of effort or size of ratchet, etc. While it may have been optical
delusion, looked to me like the bolt turned as well which wouldn't
indicate being very tight.

I don't have any scientific evidence but 50+ yr practical use on farm
indicates to me they serve a useful purpose.

--

I was impressed by this test at first, but then I realized looking at the
graph ( http://www.boltscience.com/pages/hel...ingwashers.htm ) that
the major difference occurs only after the bolt is already too loose. The
plots diverge only after the bolt has already lost half its preload. They
really need to concentrate on the very first part of the curve where the
bolt starts to loosen. If you look closely, there is some indication one
curve is much steeper than the other at the start, but it is impossible to
tell which it is. Maybe they need to dial back the shaking a bit to be
able to measure that part of the curve better.

(following up to my own post)
What would be best would be to create a set of curves like this at several
vibration amplitudes and see if there is some level of vibration where the
lockwasher prevents any loosening, but the plain nut does not.

Would you be happy if I quoted Aristotle,
quoted the Bible, and then called you a bad
name? I'd sure not want you to leave the room
unsatisfied, and all.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"asdfasdf" wrote in message news
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_...ocking_washers




Wikipedia ruins everything. I was expecting a big argument to start.

On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 12:39:44 -0500, Richard wrote:

On 6/7/2013 11:35 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 19:51:22 -0700, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

wrote in message
...
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done a
million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there to dig
in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from loosening. The
flat washer seems like it would allow the lock washer to rotate
without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_%28hardware%
29#Spring_and_locking_washers

It may be worth a more extensive search. A mechanical engineer I know,
whose a very sharp guy, told me that someone did a study and determined
that split washers work because they act as springs that keep the
tension on the threads in one direction.

Wikipedia is not always a reliable source.



Then edit the page so that it is more reliable...

I'm not a reliable enough source, either. I was advising the OP to look
around and make up his own mind, not to believe what I said without
question.

If I needed to know I'd do a literature search -- starting, I admit, by
looking up my old mechanical engineering colleague, to see if he could
remember where he saw the note (I think it was NASA tech briefs. NASA
was doing all sorts of studies in that vein for a while).

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On 6/7/2013 6:26 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Would you be happy if I quoted Aristotle,
quoted the Bible, and then called you a bad
name? I'd sure not want you to leave the room
unsatisfied, and all.

That's the rcm way! I was hoping someone would do my
thread justice.


Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"asdfasdf" wrote in message news
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_...ocking_washers




Wikipedia ruins everything. I was expecting a big argument to start.

Which lubricant should be used on thread, when
tightning a bolt, nut, and lock washer? I'd think that
something with WD-40 would be used. Everyone
knows that WD-40 was designed as a lubricant.
Right, asshat?

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"asdfasdf" wrote in message ...
On 6/7/2013 6:26 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Would you be happy if I quoted Aristotle,
quoted the Bible, and then called you a bad
name? I'd sure not want you to leave the room
unsatisfied, and all.

That's the rcm way! I was hoping someone would do my
thread justice.

Most of the applications I have, I'd go with
farm experience rather than a web site that
claims this or that.

Do you ever stack a lock washer and flat
washer? And, how does that turn out?
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"dpb" wrote in message ...

I don't have any scientific evidence but 50+
yr practical use on farm indicates to me they
serve a useful purpose.

--

On 6/8/2013 8:31 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Most of the applications I have, I'd go with
farm experience rather than a web site that
claims this or that.

Do you ever stack a lock washer and flat
washer? And, how does that turn out?
....

Quite a lot...a wide variety of applications have adjusting slots for
depth settings, etc., that have flat washers to span the slot and lock
washer on top. Works fine...

Again, for the application. I can imagine one can find vibration
regimes/applications where it doesn't suffice.

--

asdfasdf wrote:
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there
to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?

It all depends on what you're doing, what your fastening and why and if
you're doing is falling apart.

for high vibration use, where everything just rattles loose, Nordlock
washers seem to work pretty good. There seems to be magic resonant
frequencies where nuts and bolts just start to fall out, which can be
quite entertaining.

On Thursday, June 6, 2013 at 10:34:32 PM UTC-4, asdfasdf wrote:
When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there
to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?

Depends on the size of your nuts......

I would disagree. After the washer is collapsed and the bolt is tensioned there is no added force to the bolt frm the washer. Just more space between the bolt head and the work surface.

You are WRONG!