i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:

i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.


Remove the new battery & short out the socket for a few seconds, then
reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
scratchpad RAM.

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.


Remove the new battery & short out the socket for a few seconds, then
reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
scratchpad RAM.

tryed that, No Joy
Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.


Remove the new battery & short out the socket for a few seconds, then
reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
scratchpad RAM.

tryed that, No Joy


Try another power supply, if you have one. You may have a dying or
dead motherboard. Unplug all the drives, and cards except the video
card, if it isn't part of the motherboard. If you can't get the bios
screen to flash, look at the electrolytics on the motherboard, and the
ones near the processor in particular.

If they are bulging, they need replaced, or replace the motherboard.
They are a special low ESR 105° C type capacitor, and not always easy to
replace, because they are soldered to internal layers. If you can find
the exact same type motherboard, and move the processor to the
replacement board you shouldn't have to reinstall any software.

On 11/16/2012 3:59 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.


Remove the new battery& short out the socket for a few seconds, then
reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
scratchpad RAM.

tryed that, No Joy


Try another power supply, if you have one. You may have a dying or
dead motherboard. Unplug all the drives, and cards except the video
card, if it isn't part of the motherboard. If you can't get the bios
screen to flash, look at the electrolytics on the motherboard, and the
ones near the processor in particular.

If they are bulging, they need replaced, or replace the motherboard.
They are a special low ESR 105° C type capacitor, and not always easy to
replace, because they are soldered to internal layers. If you can find
the exact same type motherboard, and move the processor to the
replacement board you shouldn't have to reinstall any software.

How did you determine that the unspecified cnc mill with the unspecified
controller running an unspecified OS with an unspecified user interface
made no *attempt* to boot?

If it's an IBM-PC compatible controller with a keyboard and display
and you don't get any beeps and you see nothing on the display and
entering the BIOS setup pre-boot keystrokes at the proper time don't do
anything, yep, you've probably borked it.

If it's the typical coin-cell non-rechargeable CMOS battery, there's
a diode in series and shorting the socket does nothing. You have to
WAIT, I'd give it an hour before you give up and replace the motherboard.
There may be a jumper to reset the cmos, but it may only open the circuit
and also require you to wait. Shouldn't take an hour, but what do you
have to lose by waiting longer.

Also, did you unplug the computer while you waited?
Many computers have a 5V supply that's hot when the power is off
and may prevent the CMOS from resetting. It's also possible that
there's enough power coming back thru an I/O port to keep the CMOS
alive.

I had a situation where there was enough juice coming back through
a GPIB port to keep the GPIB fully functional with the power
to the microcontroller removed. I unplugged it and it just kept
on running. Thought I'd been possessed...

mike wrote:

If it's the typical coin-cell non-rechargeable CMOS battery, there's
a diode in series and shorting the socket does nothing.


Some motherboard makers gave those specific instructions. The
circuits that I've seen had a resistor around the diode, and another
diode in series with the DC input from the motherboard. At the
microamps used by the CMOS based design, the forward drop is quite low.
A Schottky diode will be even lower. Anyway, the RTC is now a licensed
design in an ASIC. I haven't seen a motherboard made in the last decade
that had a seperate RTC chip, or module.

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:59:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.


Remove the new battery & short out the socket for a few seconds, then
reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
scratchpad RAM.

tryed that, No Joy


Try another power supply, if you have one. You may have a dying or
dead motherboard. Unplug all the drives, and cards except the video
card, if it isn't part of the motherboard. If you can't get the bios
screen to flash, look at the electrolytics on the motherboard, and the
ones near the processor in particular.

If they are bulging, they need replaced, or replace the motherboard.
They are a special low ESR 105° C type capacitor, and not always easy to
replace, because they are soldered to internal layers. If you can find
the exact same type motherboard, and move the processor to the
replacement board you shouldn't have to reinstall any software.

This is a P4 motherboard with an ISA slot for my Galil card. Rare and
expensive to replace. I happen to be in Ocala Tuesday. Are you
interested in looking at it?

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:59:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.


Remove the new battery & short out the socket for a few seconds, then
reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
scratchpad RAM.

tryed that, No Joy


Try another power supply, if you have one. You may have a dying or
dead motherboard. Unplug all the drives, and cards except the video
card, if it isn't part of the motherboard. If you can't get the bios
screen to flash, look at the electrolytics on the motherboard, and the
ones near the processor in particular.

If they are bulging, they need replaced, or replace the motherboard.
They are a special low ESR 105° C type capacitor, and not always easy to
replace, because they are soldered to internal layers. If you can find
the exact same type motherboard, and move the processor to the
replacement board you shouldn't have to reinstall any software.

This is a P4 motherboard with an ISA slot for my Galil card. Rare and
expensive to replace. I happen to be in Ocala Tuesday. Are you
interested in looking at it?


I just learned that a severly disabled freind of mine died last night
& I'm just not up to it tonight. I only slept a little over three hours
last night, and I'm not able to concentrate on anything right now. I
was just getting ready to post a message that I would be off the group
for a few days to a week, to see if I can help her family. My email is
good, so you can contact me off group. I should be in better shape by
Tuesday and more than happy to take a look at it. I may even have a
spare motherboard that would support the card. Email me and give me the
details, I probably won't be back on the group before Monday or Tuesday.

To everyone else, this is the second disabled freind who has died in
the last couple months. I wasn't able to do anything to help the first,
because they can't locate a next of kin. She had a sister, but wouldn't
talk about her or even tell where her sister lived. In this case, her
yuongest son is disabled and she was all he had.

On 11/16/2012 8:14 PM, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:59:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.


Remove the new battery & short out the socket for a few seconds, then
reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
scratchpad RAM.

tryed that, No Joy


Try another power supply, if you have one. You may have a dying or
dead motherboard. Unplug all the drives, and cards except the video
card, if it isn't part of the motherboard. If you can't get the bios
screen to flash, look at the electrolytics on the motherboard, and the
ones near the processor in particular.

If they are bulging, they need replaced, or replace the motherboard.
They are a special low ESR 105° C type capacitor, and not always easy to
replace, because they are soldered to internal layers. If you can find
the exact same type motherboard, and move the processor to the
replacement board you shouldn't have to reinstall any software.

This is a P4 motherboard with an ISA slot for my Galil card. Rare and
expensive to replace. I happen to be in Ocala Tuesday. Are you
interested in looking at it?

Karl


Anybody with more than one computer should get a power supply tester.
They are just not expensive at $23. Its the first thing I do on a
problem box and often the only thing I need to do.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16899705003

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.


Remove the new battery & short out the socket for a few seconds, then
reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
scratchpad RAM.

tryed that, No Joy


Try another power supply, if you have one. You may have a dying or
dead motherboard. Unplug all the drives, and cards except the video
card, if it isn't part of the motherboard. If you can't get the bios
screen to flash, look at the electrolytics on the motherboard, and the
ones near the processor in particular.

If they are bulging, they need replaced, or replace the motherboard.
They are a special low ESR 105° C type capacitor, and not always easy to
replace, because they are soldered to internal layers. If you can find
the exact same type motherboard, and move the processor to the
replacement board you shouldn't have to reinstall any software.


A good article on bad (bulging) electrolytic capacitors, causes, and
good photos can be had he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

Looks like one major cause of many failed units started roughly around
the early 2000's, and traces back to a botched industrial espionage
episode. Details are in the the above article.

Erik

Erik wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

A good article on bad (bulging) electrolytic capacitors, causes, and
good photos can be had he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

Looks like one major cause of many failed units started roughly around
the early 2000's, and traces back to a botched industrial espionage
episode. Details are in the the above article.


Erik, I have been replacing high ESR capacitors for over two
decades. I first used the ESR function on a Sencore LCR meter in 1987.
I now have the original Bob Parker/Dick Smith Electronics ESR meter.

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.


Remove the new battery & short out the socket for a few seconds, then
reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
scratchpad RAM.

There is usually a Bio "clear" pair of terminals that if shorted, will
wipe the bios settings and bring it back to factory default.

Ive never heard of shorting the socket working. Much for me to learn!

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Nov 16, 4:18*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.

Karl

Maybe re-seating the memory will work.
I have had to replace memory sticks , too.

I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
computer from booting.

wrote:

I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
computer from booting.

^ This. Whenever strange issues start to crop up with a machine that's
fairly old, powering it down and unplugging/replugging every connector a
few times wipes oxide buildup off the contacts and usually solves the
problem.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:00:24 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
computer from booting.

^ This. Whenever strange issues start to crop up with a machine that's
fairly old, powering it down and unplugging/replugging every connector a
few times wipes oxide buildup off the contacts and usually solves the
problem.
That was particularly true back in the days of the "model T"
computers - where all of the ICs were socketed - and only the best
used high quality screw machine? sockets. Every memory bit was a
separate chup - with tinned legs.

On today's computers, with gold plated instead of tinned connections,
it is EXTREMELY rare.

I'd say, in order of likelihood- bad power supply (average ATX P/S up
to about 5 years ago only lasted 2 - 3 years) Bad caps on the
motherboard, or bad motherboard. What model board is it???? ASUS,
A-Open, etc and actual model designation???

wrote:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:00:24 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
computer from booting.

^ This. Whenever strange issues start to crop up with a machine that's
fairly old, powering it down and unplugging/replugging every connector a
few times wipes oxide buildup off the contacts and usually solves the
problem.
That was particularly true back in the days of the "model T"
computers - where all of the ICs were socketed - and only the best
used high quality screw machine? sockets. Every memory bit was a
separate chup - with tinned legs.

On today's computers, with gold plated instead of tinned connections,
it is EXTREMELY rare.

Nope. I've personally seen it on $$$ equipment with top quality gold
plated connectors. Reseat those connectors a few times and the problem
goes away.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:51:00 -0500, the renowned "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:00:24 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
computer from booting.

^ This. Whenever strange issues start to crop up with a machine that's
fairly old, powering it down and unplugging/replugging every connector a
few times wipes oxide buildup off the contacts and usually solves the
problem.
That was particularly true back in the days of the "model T"
computers - where all of the ICs were socketed - and only the best
used high quality screw machine? sockets. Every memory bit was a
separate chup - with tinned legs.

On today's computers, with gold plated instead of tinned connections,
it is EXTREMELY rare.

Nope. I've personally seen it on $$$ equipment with top quality gold
plated connectors. Reseat those connectors a few times and the problem
goes away.

Sometimes it's a cold solder joint somewhere that starts working again
when the board is flexed and the oxidation is temporarily wiped.
Chances are it will come back in either case.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:51:00 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:00:24 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
computer from booting.

^ This. Whenever strange issues start to crop up with a machine that's
fairly old, powering it down and unplugging/replugging every connector a
few times wipes oxide buildup off the contacts and usually solves the
problem.
That was particularly true back in the days of the "model T"
computers - where all of the ICs were socketed - and only the best
used high quality screw machine? sockets. Every memory bit was a
separate chup - with tinned legs.

On today's computers, with gold plated instead of tinned connections,
it is EXTREMELY rare.

Nope. I've personally seen it on $$$ equipment with top quality gold
plated connectors. Reseat those connectors a few times and the problem
goes away.
I work on them every day - and other than add-on cards I have NOT seen
a single one in the last 8 or more years.

"Pete C." wrote:.

Nope. I've personally seen it on $$$ equipment with top quality gold
plated connectors. Reseat those connectors a few times and the problem
goes away.


Sure it does. That's why I've spent days replacing IC sockets in
equipment.

wrote:

I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
computer from booting.


A low grade hack, at best. The gold plating on memory modules is
only a few microns thick, so by the time they need 'cleaned' there are
holes in the plating. Doing failure analysis on components, and
qualifying new components for a manufacturing process would really open
your eyes.

On 2012-11-16, Karl Townsend wrote:
i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.

You may need to reset the CMOS. Pull the new battery, and short
the pins of the holder for a few seconds, then re-install the battery.
You will probably have to reset all the options after this, of course.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 17 Nov 2012 05:22:24 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-11-16, Karl Townsend wrote:
i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.

You may need to reset the CMOS. Pull the new battery, and short
the pins of the holder for a few seconds, then re-install the battery.
You will probably have to reset all the options after this, of course.

Good Luck,
DoN.

JOY, This was it but shorting it didn't work. leaving the battery out
all night did.

Karl

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:06:34 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:

On 17 Nov 2012 05:22:24 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-11-16, Karl Townsend wrote:
i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.

You may need to reset the CMOS. Pull the new battery, and short
the pins of the holder for a few seconds, then re-install the battery.
You will probably have to reset all the options after this, of course.

Good Luck,
DoN.

JOY, This was it but shorting it didn't work. leaving the battery out
all night did.

Karl

Lucky!!!.
Back when the RTC was a separate chip we would remove the battery and
put a peice of tinfoil over the clock chip to short out all the pins.
The clock chip contained the C-MOS in most of those older machines .

On 2012-11-17, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:06:34 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:

On 17 Nov 2012 05:22:24 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

You may need to reset the CMOS. Pull the new battery, and short
the pins of the holder for a few seconds, then re-install the battery.
You will probably have to reset all the options after this, of course.

Good Luck,
DoN.

JOY, This was it but shorting it didn't work. leaving the battery out
all night did.

[ ... ]

Back when the RTC was a separate chip we would remove the battery and
put a peice of tinfoil over the clock chip to short out all the pins.
The clock chip contained the C-MOS in most of those older machines .

Easier than in the older Sun workstations, which used a chip by
Toshiba which had the clock, the CMOS RAM, a crystal, *and* a coin cell
potted in a single package. No way to short out the battery from
outside. *And* -- it contained the host-id and the ethernet MAC address
inside it, with no easy way to reset those. (There was an
around-the-corner way, but it was not easy.) And if you had any
licensed software, the host-id was very important. If you did not have
it recorded, you had to go to Sun for a replacement, with the barcode
from the label on the chip.

If you left your computer on 24/7 you would get a really long
life from the built-in battery. If you stored it powered off, you would
be lucky to get five years out of it.

And -- there were (are) instructions on the web on how to dig
into the potting and wire an external coin cell to replace the now dead
one inside it. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 17 Nov 2012 21:17:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-11-17, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:06:34 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:

On 17 Nov 2012 05:22:24 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

You may need to reset the CMOS. Pull the new battery, and short
the pins of the holder for a few seconds, then re-install the battery.
You will probably have to reset all the options after this, of course.

Good Luck,
DoN.

JOY, This was it but shorting it didn't work. leaving the battery out
all night did.

[ ... ]

Back when the RTC was a separate chip we would remove the battery and
put a peice of tinfoil over the clock chip to short out all the pins.
The clock chip contained the C-MOS in most of those older machines .

Easier than in the older Sun workstations, which used a chip by
Toshiba which had the clock, the CMOS RAM, a crystal, *and* a coin cell
potted in a single package. No way to short out the battery from
outside. *And* -- it contained the host-id and the ethernet MAC address
inside it, with no easy way to reset those. (There was an
around-the-corner way, but it was not easy.) And if you had any
licensed software, the host-id was very important. If you did not have
it recorded, you had to go to Sun for a replacement, with the barcode
from the label on the chip.

Those "integrated" CMOS devices were used on quite a few motherboards
back in the 386/486 era. Cannot remember the manufacturere - but when
the internal battery died you were cooked. I believe it was Dallas
Semi. Some could be taken apart and a new battery soldered in.
Sometimes you could cut the top off and solder wires to the 2 up-bent
pins and connect a standard c-mos battery, and some guys just replaced
the dallas with generic RTC chip -and an external battery.

Pain in the ARSE, for sure.

If you left your computer on 24/7 you would get a really long
life from the built-in battery. If you stored it powered off, you would
be lucky to get five years out of it.

And -- there were (are) instructions on the web on how to dig
into the potting and wire an external coin cell to replace the now dead
one inside it. :-)

Most I saw were not even potted - just built into a glued or welded
plastic box.

Enjoy,
DoN.

On 2012-11-17, Karl Townsend wrote:
On 17 Nov 2012 05:22:24 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-11-16, Karl Townsend wrote:
i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.

You may need to reset the CMOS. Pull the new battery, and short
the pins of the holder for a few seconds, then re-install the battery.
You will probably have to reset all the options after this, of course.

Good Luck,
DoN.

JOY, This was it but shorting it didn't work. leaving the battery out
all night did.

Glad it worked. I had forgotten about the likelyhood of a diode
in the battery circuit, but it makes sense. (Now, if you could identify
the actual chip with the CMOS memory in it, and which pins were power
and ground on the chip, shorting across there would have been quicker.
But you have it done, so no worry.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I had a similar problem. Can you get to the boot menu? I found that the order of devices used to load the operating system had changed and it was trying to load from the floppy drive instead of the hard drive.

Dan