"Why New Orleans is in Deep Water" by Molly Ivins
Published on Thursday, September 1, 2005 by the Chicago Tribune

Excerpts:

[
It is a fact that the Clinton administration set some tough policies
on wetlands, and it is a fact that the Bush administration repealed
those policies--ordering federal agencies to stop protecting as many
as 20 million acres of wetlands.

Last year, four environmental groups cooperated on a joint report
showing the Bush administration's policies had allowed developers to
drain thousands of acres of wetlands.

Does this mean we should blame President Bush for the fact that New
Orleans is underwater? No, but it means we can blame Bush when a
Category 3 or Category 2 hurricane puts New Orleans under. At this
point, it is a matter of making a bad situation worse, of failing to
observe the First Rule of Holes (when you're in one, stop digging).

Had a storm the size of Katrina just had the grace to hold off for a
while, it's quite likely no one would even remember what the Bush
administration did two months ago. The national press corps has the
attention span of a gnat, and trying to get anyone in Washington to
remember longer than a year ago is like asking them what happened in
Iznik, Turkey, in A.D. 325.

Just plain political bad luck that, in June, Bush took his little ax
and chopped $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of
Engineers, a 44 percent reduction. As was reported in New Orleans
CityBusiness at the time, that meant "major hurricane and flood
projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study
to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane
has been shelved for now."
]
[
Our friends at the Center for American Progress note the Office of
Technology Assessment used to produce forward-thinking plans such as
"Floods: A National Policy Concern" and "A Framework for Flood Hazards
Management." Unfortunately, the office was targeted by Newt Gingrich
and the Republican right, and gutted years ago.

In fact, there is now a governmentwide movement away from basing
policy on science, expertise and professionalism, and in favor of
choices based on ideology. If you're wondering what the ideological
position on flood management might be, look at the pictures of New
Orleans--it seems to consist of gutting the programs that do anything.
]

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0901-26.htm

[
Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist based in Washington.

© 2005 Chicago Tribune
]

HTH
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:
"Why New Orleans is in Deep Water" by Molly Ivins
Published on Thursday, September 1, 2005 by the Chicago Tribune

Excerpts:

[
It is a fact that the Clinton administration set some tough policies
on wetlands, and it is a fact that the Bush administration repealed
those policies--ordering federal agencies to stop protecting as many
as 20 million acres of wetlands.

Last year, four environmental groups cooperated on a joint report
showing the Bush administration's policies had allowed developers to
drain thousands of acres of wetlands.

Does this mean we should blame President Bush for the fact that New
Orleans is underwater? No, but it means we can blame Bush when a
Category 3 or Category 2 hurricane puts New Orleans under. At this
point, it is a matter of making a bad situation worse, of failing to
observe the First Rule of Holes (when you're in one, stop digging).

Had a storm the size of Katrina just had the grace to hold off for a
while, it's quite likely no one would even remember what the Bush
administration did two months ago. The national press corps has the
attention span of a gnat, and trying to get anyone in Washington to
remember longer than a year ago is like asking them what happened in
Iznik, Turkey, in A.D. 325.

Just plain political bad luck that, in June, Bush took his little ax
and chopped $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of
Engineers, a 44 percent reduction. As was reported in New Orleans
CityBusiness at the time, that meant "major hurricane and flood
projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study
to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane
has been shelved for now."
]
[
Our friends at the Center for American Progress note the Office of
Technology Assessment used to produce forward-thinking plans such as
"Floods: A National Policy Concern" and "A Framework for Flood Hazards
Management." Unfortunately, the office was targeted by Newt Gingrich
and the Republican right, and gutted years ago.

In fact, there is now a governmentwide movement away from basing
policy on science, expertise and professionalism, and in favor of
choices based on ideology. If you're wondering what the ideological
position on flood management might be, look at the pictures of New
Orleans--it seems to consist of gutting the programs that do anything.
]

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0901-26.htm

[
Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist based in Washington.

© 2005 Chicago Tribune
]

HTH

Maybe you'll read this:
http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/09/u...hed-every.html

"Cliff" wrote in message
...
"Why New Orleans is in Deep Water" by Molly Ivins
Published on Thursday, September 1, 2005 by the Chicago Tribune

Excerpts:

[
It is a fact that the Clinton administration set some tough policies
on wetlands, and it is a fact that the Bush administration repealed
those policies--ordering federal agencies to stop protecting as many
as 20 million acres of wetlands.

* I would think that the wetlands act as a buffer to lessen the effects of
such storms, so I agrre that the wetlands need protection but why can't the
state be responsible?


Last year, four environmental groups cooperated on a joint report
showing the Bush administration's policies had allowed developers to
drain thousands of acres of wetlands.

*Again, why is it not the state's job?

Does this mean we should blame President Bush for the fact that New
Orleans is underwater? No, but it means we can blame Bush when a
Category 3 or Category 2 hurricane puts New Orleans under. At this
point, it is a matter of making a bad situation worse, of failing to
observe the First Rule of Holes (when you're in one, stop digging).

* Why is this a fed thing?

Had a storm the size of Katrina just had the grace to hold off for a
while, it's quite likely no one would even remember what the Bush
administration did two months ago. The national press corps has the
attention span of a gnat, and trying to get anyone in Washington to
remember longer than a year ago is like asking them what happened in
Iznik, Turkey, in A.D. 325.

Just plain political bad luck that, in June, Bush took his little ax
and chopped $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of
Engineers, a 44 percent reduction. As was reported in New Orleans
CityBusiness at the time, that meant "major hurricane and flood
projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study
to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane
has been shelved for now."

* Why is this not a state/local thing? Why should Ohio pay for poeple too
stupid not to build below sea-level?
]
[
Our friends at the Center for American Progress note the Office of
Technology Assessment used to produce forward-thinking plans such as
"Floods: A National Policy Concern" and "A Framework for Flood Hazards
Management." Unfortunately, the office was targeted by Newt Gingrich
and the Republican right, and gutted years ago.

In fact, there is now a governmentwide movement away from basing
policy on science, expertise and professionalism, and in favor of
choices based on ideology. If you're wondering what the ideological
position on flood management might be, look at the pictures of New
Orleans--it seems to consist of gutting the programs that do anything.

* I'm just not in favor of the fed being involved at the state level, why
not abolish the state and local governments and just run everything?


http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0901-26.htm

[
Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist based in Washington.

© 2005 Chicago Tribune
]

HTH
--
Cliff

Samson wrote:
Cliff wrote:

"Why New Orleans is in Deep Water" by Molly Ivins Published on
Thursday, September 1, 2005 by the Chicago Tribune Excerpts:

[ It is a fact that the Clinton administration set some tough
policies on wetlands, and it is a fact that the Bush administration
repealed those policies--ordering federal agencies to stop
protecting as many as 20 million acres of wetlands.
snip

Maybe you'll read this:
http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/09/u...hed-every.html


It always amazes me what you find when you get the rest of the tory,
instead of the tiny sound bite. I only copied part of the above Eutota
article. As always there is at least ten times as much crap from the
Clinton history. Kinda like the flap over the recent single Bush recess
appointment of John Bolton, Clinton made what? 148 recess appointments?
Jeez. Here is the small snippet from Eurota below, it is actually
several pages on the link.


There is also wasted space regarding the debunked global warming
nonsense. Well, what was the Clinton Administration policy on floods,
hurricanes, and the sort in Louisiana? Using the same source as Mr.
Blumenthal, the Times-Picayune, we find the following via
Lexis-Nexis:

February 17, 1995

An Army Corps of Engineers "hit list" of recommended budget cuts
would eliminate new flood-control programs in some of the nation's
most flood-prone spots - where recent disasters have left thousands
homeless and cost the federal government millions in emergency aid.

Clinton administration officials argue that the flood-control efforts
are local projects, not national, and should be paid for by local
taxes.

Nationwide, the administration proposes cutting 98 new projects in 35
states and Puerto Rico, for an estimated savings of $29 million in
1996.

Corps officials freely conceded the cuts, which represent only a
small portion of savings the corps ultimately must make, may be
penny-wise and pound-foolish. But they said they were forced to
eliminate some services the corps has historically provided to
taxpayers to meet the administration's budget-cutting goals.

June 23, 1995

A hurricane project, approved and financed since 1965, to protect
more than 140,000 West Bank residents east of the Harvey Canal is in
jeopardy.

The Clinton administration is holding back a Corps of Engineers
report recommending that the $120 million project proceed. Unless
that report is forwarded to the Office of Management and Budget,
Congress cannot authorize money for the project, U.S. Rep. William
Jefferson's office said Thursday.

On June 9, John Zirschky, the acting assistant secretary of the Army
and the official who refused to forward the report, sent a memo to
the corps, saying the recommendation for the project "is not
consistent with the policies and budget priorities reflected in the
President's Fiscal Year 1996 budget. Accordingly, I will not forward
the report to the Office of Management and Budget for clearance."
July 26, 1996

The House voted Thursday for a $19.4 billion energy and water bill
that provides $246 million for Army Corps of Engineers projects in
Louisiana.

The bill, approved 391-23, is the last of the 13 annual spending
measures for 1997 approved by the House.

One area in which the House approved more financing than the
president requested was for flood control and maintenance of harbors
and shipping routes by the Army Corps of Engineers.

Flood control projects along the Mississippi River and its
tributaries were allotted $303 million, or $10 million more than the
president wanted.




http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/09/u...hed-every.html

In article , Strabo says...

By law the federal government controls anything having
to do with foreign or interstate commerce.

And also by law, they control *intra*state commerce having to
do with drug laws. They can nullify california state law
having to do with purely intrastate commerce, because they
don't want medical MJ legalized.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

For numerous legal, political and historical reasons.
The bottom line is that the federal government cannot
be trusted.

By law the federal government controls anything having
to do with foreign or interstate commerce.

By law the federal government controls anything that
it defines as waterways and wetlands.

The Army Corps of Engineers controls all aspects of
of the Mississippi River, tributaries and the delta.

This combination effectively blocks Louisiana,
New Orleans or private companies, from independent action
involving dykes, levees, drainage or wetlands.
Actions that I'm sure would have been taken since the
threat of destruction has been known for 80 years.

I didn't know that, I stand corrected! I still have an issue with people
building below sea level or on a flood plain or in an earthquake zone and I
have to pay for their inevitable disaster.

In article , nospam says...

This combination effectively blocks Louisiana,
New Orleans or private companies, from independent action
involving dykes, levees, drainage or wetlands.
Actions that I'm sure would have been taken since the
threat of destruction has been known for 80 years.

I didn't know that, I stand corrected! I still have an issue with people
building below sea level or on a flood plain or in an earthquake zone and I
have to pay for their inevitable disaster.

A valid point - but why didn't you say something to them a year ago??

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

A valid point - but why didn't you say something to them a year ago??

Jim

I've been telling Gunner to move to Kansas to save himself for years.

Strabo wrote:
In OT - NRA would argue, "Government policies don't kill
people, hurricanes kill people." on Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:42:56
GMT, by "Tom Gardner" , we read:


I didn't know that, I stand corrected! I still have an issue with people
building below sea level or on a flood plain or in an earthquake zone and I
have to pay for their inevitable disaster.


Half of the nation is in earthquake or flood zones. Flooding
however is relatively easy to prevent or control. Earthquake
damage is minimized through proper design and construction.


So on that basis what TG is saying that half the USA is uninhabitable.

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:23:16 GMT, Samson wrote:

Cliff wrote:
"Why New Orleans is in Deep Water" by Molly Ivins
Published on Thursday, September 1, 2005 by the Chicago Tribune

Excerpts:

[
It is a fact that the Clinton administration set some tough policies
on wetlands, and it is a fact that the Bush administration repealed
those policies--ordering federal agencies to stop protecting as many
as 20 million acres of wetlands.

Last year, four environmental groups cooperated on a joint report
showing the Bush administration's policies had allowed developers to
drain thousands of acres of wetlands.

Does this mean we should blame President Bush for the fact that New
Orleans is underwater? No, but it means we can blame Bush when a
Category 3 or Category 2 hurricane puts New Orleans under. At this
point, it is a matter of making a bad situation worse, of failing to
observe the First Rule of Holes (when you're in one, stop digging).

Had a storm the size of Katrina just had the grace to hold off for a
while, it's quite likely no one would even remember what the Bush
administration did two months ago. The national press corps has the
attention span of a gnat, and trying to get anyone in Washington to
remember longer than a year ago is like asking them what happened in
Iznik, Turkey, in A.D. 325.

Just plain political bad luck that, in June, Bush took his little ax
and chopped $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of
Engineers, a 44 percent reduction. As was reported in New Orleans
CityBusiness at the time, that meant "major hurricane and flood
projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study
to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane
has been shelved for now."
]
[
Our friends at the Center for American Progress note the Office of
Technology Assessment used to produce forward-thinking plans such as
"Floods: A National Policy Concern" and "A Framework for Flood Hazards
Management." Unfortunately, the office was targeted by Newt Gingrich
and the Republican right, and gutted years ago.

In fact, there is now a governmentwide movement away from basing
policy on science, expertise and professionalism, and in favor of
choices based on ideology. If you're wondering what the ideological
position on flood management might be, look at the pictures of New
Orleans--it seems to consist of gutting the programs that do anything.
]

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0901-26.htm

[
Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist based in Washington.

© 2005 Chicago Tribune
]

HTH

Maybe you'll read this:
http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/09/u...hed-every.html

SNICKER SNICKER

From 1995? BEFORE THE REPUBLICAN & BUSH & CUTS & CHANGES &
ENDLESS WARS?

Reading comprehension problems yet again?
You MUST be a winger BSEG.
--
Cliff

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:42:56 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

I still have an issue with people
building below sea level

Umm ... it's been SINKING?
--
Cliff

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Strabo says...

By law the federal government controls anything having
to do with foreign or interstate commerce.

And also by law, they control *intra*state commerce having to
do with drug laws. They can nullify california state law
having to do with purely intrastate commerce, because they
don't want medical MJ legalized.

I can't seem to find that grant of power to the federal government in my
copy of the US Constitution. Would you please identify it for me?

Thanks,

-jc-

"Tom Gardner" wrote ...
[ snip ]
This combination effectively blocks Louisiana,
New Orleans or private companies, from independent action
involving dykes, levees, drainage or wetlands.
Actions that I'm sure would have been taken since the
threat of destruction has been known for 80 years.

I didn't know that, I stand corrected! I still have an issue with people
building below sea level or on a flood plain or in an earthquake zone and
I have to pay for their inevitable disaster.

My objection is limited to being "forced at gunpoint" to pay for their
inevitable disaster.

-jc-

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , nospam
says...

This combination effectively blocks Louisiana,
New Orleans or private companies, from independent action
involving dykes, levees, drainage or wetlands.
Actions that I'm sure would have been taken since the
threat of destruction has been known for 80 years.

I didn't know that, I stand corrected! I still have an issue with people
building below sea level or on a flood plain or in an earthquake zone and
I
have to pay for their inevitable disaster.

A valid point - but why didn't you say something to them a year ago??

Probably for reasons similar to yours. It's not my place to tell others how
to live their lives, or to seek out the stupid just to tell them I think
they are stupid.

-jc-

It's got nothing to do with Bush - but with decisions made by LOCAL
officials and developers decades before Bush's parents were born!
Build a city 1) below sea level 2) on the sea front 3) in a chronic
hurricane zone - and it is doomed.
Saying that the Dutch live on the sea below sea level is irrelevant.
Holland isn't in a hurricane zone.

No $4 to park! No $6 admission!
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:13:46 GMT, clay wrote:

It always amazes me what you find when you get the rest of the tory

http://www.donegal.de/Home/pics/Image21.jpg
--
Cliff

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 18:48:40 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

A valid point - but why didn't you say something to them a year ago??

Jim

I've been telling Gunner to move to Kansas to save himself for years.

I accept the risks, but have also made serious preperations both in
goods, gear and mods to the infrastructure to help alleviate any
issues that may arise because of an earthquake. Im 5 miles from the
San Andreas Fault.

It will mix all my paint cans at one time.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

wrote:
It's got nothing to do with Bush - but with decisions made by LOCAL
officials and developers decades before Bush's parents were born!
Build a city 1) below sea level 2) on the sea front 3) in a chronic
hurricane zone - and it is doomed.
Saying that the Dutch live on the sea below sea level is irrelevant.
Holland isn't in a hurricane zone.

No $4 to park! No $6 admission!
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW


You also forgot to add that for decades (remember Huey Long, the
original King Fish)New Orleans and Louisiana have been mired in
corruption. It has been estimated that 9 out of every 10 FEDERAL
DOLLARS that get to Louisiana goes eventually into somebodys pockets due
to bribes and graft.

The biggest problem with Louisiana and New Orleans is the political
leaders are only good at one thing, buying votes

Second little note, you know the two levies that failed, According to
the District Engineer for the Corps of Engineers on the PBS News Hour
they were new levies constructed in 2003-2004. They were a new method
of construction that just didn't work. (Well back to the Drawing boards)



--
There are in fact two things, Science and opinion,
the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.

Hippocrates
467-377 B.C.

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 02:49:55 GMT, "John Chase"
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote ...
[ snip ]
This combination effectively blocks Louisiana,
New Orleans or private companies, from independent action
involving dykes, levees, drainage or wetlands.
Actions that I'm sure would have been taken since the
threat of destruction has been known for 80 years.

I didn't know that, I stand corrected! I still have an issue with people
building below sea level or on a flood plain or in an earthquake zone and
I have to pay for their inevitable disaster.

My objection is limited to being "forced at gunpoint" to pay for their
inevitable disaster.

Good point.
It would have been a LOT cheaper to have let the
Corps of Engineers proceed with fixing the levies.
--
Cliff

On 2 Sep 2005 20:31:29 -0700, "
wrote:

It's got nothing to do with Bush - but with decisions made by LOCAL
officials and developers decades before Bush's parents were born!
Build a city 1) below sea level 2) on the sea front 3) in a chronic
hurricane zone - and it is doomed.
Saying that the Dutch live on the sea below sea level is irrelevant.
Holland isn't in a hurricane zone.

They have bad weather too but maintain their dikes.
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:
On 2 Sep 2005 20:31:29 -0700, "
wrote:


It's got nothing to do with Bush - but with decisions made by LOCAL
officials and developers decades before Bush's parents were born!
Build a city 1) below sea level 2) on the sea front 3) in a chronic
hurricane zone - and it is doomed.
Saying that the Dutch live on the sea below sea level is irrelevant.
Holland isn't in a hurricane zone.


They have bad weather too but maintain their dikes.

Yes and a firecracker is an explosive just like a stick of dynamite.
:-)
...lew...

I accept the risks, but have also made serious preperations both in
goods, gear and mods to the infrastructure to help alleviate any
issues that may arise because of an earthquake. Im 5 miles from the
San Andreas Fault.

It will mix all my paint cans at one time.

Gunner

The vibrations from your Quincy will probably set the whole thing off, check
that rod bearing!

Do you still have my UPS and Fedex #s for the linear rail stuff?

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 14:52:40 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

I accept the risks, but have also made serious preperations both in
goods, gear and mods to the infrastructure to help alleviate any
issues that may arise because of an earthquake. Im 5 miles from the
San Andreas Fault.

It will mix all my paint cans at one time.

Gunner

The vibrations from your Quincy will probably set the whole thing off, check
that rod bearing!

Do you still have my UPS and Fedex #s for the linear rail stuff?



Nope. I deleted the data as soon as I used it. "No need to know"

Please send em again via email

Gunner


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:29:02 -0400, Cliff
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:42:56 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

I still have an issue with people
building below sea level

Umm ... it's been SINKING?
Yes, and both the average sea and river levels are rising.

Both inertia and economics have kept New Orleans where it is. It
is an exceptionally convenient location to transfer freight
between ships and river barges, and thus an ideal place of
warehouses, processing plants, etc, all of which require people
to operate.

The problem is that the Mississippi river is not geologically
stable and changes course from time to time. Over many thousands
of years, it has deposited silt to extend a delta about 50 miles
from the actual rock coastline. New Orleans is sited on the edge
of this 50-mile wide thick swamp. Over the last hundred or so
years, the river has deposited additional silt such that the
average height of the river is now about 6 to 8 feet above New
Orleans ground level. With these changes of nature, New Orleans
is now setting on what should be the bed of the Mississippi river
and almost all of it would be underwater at all times without the
levees and dikes.

The American economy requires a major Mississippi river port, but
it is not at all clear that it should be New Orleans, at least in
the present location. Sinking and abandoned port cities due to
river shifts are historically fairly common.

This latest natural disaster and man-made debacle again proves
the wisdom of two sayings:
(1) Its not nice to fool mother nature; and
(2) Put not your trust in Princes.

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:15:25 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

The problem is that the Mississippi river is not geologically
stable

It usually flows downhill.

and changes course from time to time.
--
Cliff

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:15:25 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

This latest natural disaster and man-made debacle again proves
the wisdom of two sayings:
(1) Its not nice to fool mother nature; and
(2) Put not your trust in Princes.

Or idiot imperialists.
--
Cliff

Seems to me, a major project should be started - something like the moon race
or the Panama canal - more like it - to clean up and direct the flow
once and for all. I know the whole delta lives from the flow, but a central
channel that will drain off he fast snow melt from the central part of the country
as well as a storm that hits the port.

The Corps of Engineers seems to have dropped this ball big time. I rather suspect
(as is typical in AK and LA ...) state politics entered and a baby
channel was put through the city. Should have been pressure release valves that
would pop on the sides (by nature or man) and open flood gates that
skirt the city. Man made pumps are nice for drip and runoff. But a storm
or a flood from rain on snow requires controls that are massive.
From the looks at the channel, I think it was a major major mistake in Engineering
or even a larger on in politics. It should not continue.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:29:02 -0400, Cliff
wrote:


On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:42:56 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


I still have an issue with people
building below sea level

Umm ... it's been SINKING?

Yes, and both the average sea and river levels are rising.

Both inertia and economics have kept New Orleans where it is. It
is an exceptionally convenient location to transfer freight
between ships and river barges, and thus an ideal place of
warehouses, processing plants, etc, all of which require people
to operate.

The problem is that the Mississippi river is not geologically
stable and changes course from time to time. Over many thousands
of years, it has deposited silt to extend a delta about 50 miles
from the actual rock coastline. New Orleans is sited on the edge
of this 50-mile wide thick swamp. Over the last hundred or so
years, the river has deposited additional silt such that the
average height of the river is now about 6 to 8 feet above New
Orleans ground level. With these changes of nature, New Orleans
is now setting on what should be the bed of the Mississippi river
and almost all of it would be underwater at all times without the
levees and dikes.

The American economy requires a major Mississippi river port, but
it is not at all clear that it should be New Orleans, at least in
the present location. Sinking and abandoned port cities due to
river shifts are historically fairly common.

This latest natural disaster and man-made debacle again proves
the wisdom of two sayings:
(1) Its not nice to fool mother nature; and
(2) Put not your trust in Princes.







----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

The problem lines in there isn't a hill there.
The dip or strike of the land is so subtle that water hardly flows
unless it is piled up and then it gushes sideways.

Case in point - the Delta.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:15:25 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


The problem is that the Mississippi river is not geologically
stable


It usually flows downhill.


and changes course from time to time.

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On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:26:01 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Seems to me, a major project should be started - something like the moon race
or the Panama canal - more like it - to clean up and direct the flow
once and for all. I know the whole delta lives from the flow, but a central
channel that will drain off he fast snow melt from the central part of the country
as well as a storm that hits the port.

The Corps of Engineers seems to have dropped this ball big time. I rather suspect
(as is typical in AK and LA ...) state politics entered and a baby
channel was put through the city. Should have been pressure release valves that
would pop on the sides (by nature or man) and open flood gates that
skirt the city. Man made pumps are nice for drip and runoff. But a storm
or a flood from rain on snow requires controls that are massive.
From the looks at the channel, I think it was a major major mistake in Engineering
or even a larger on in politics. It should not continue.

Water flows both ways.
Drain the marshes == Storm surges are much worse.
Increase the speed of the Mississippi == Increase sand bars
& the power of the flow to cause the river to wander & form
new channels.
In addition, those marshes *USED* to be areas for things
like fish & shrimp to breed ....

Don't expect much Gulf seafood for a few years ... not to mention
that the Gulf is now a bit toxic ..

A better idea, IF New Orleans is to be rebuilt, is to rebuild it
with many compartments with dikes inbetween.

Probably lots of AutoCad-like folks will be needed ... IF. I'd
expect only those firms related to shipping & oil-processing
to return to the area with any great speed.
Everyone else that evacuated will need new housing & jobs
elsewhere.
--
Cliff

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:27:49 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

The problem lines in there isn't a hill there.

I just wasted a small bit of sarcasm then G.
The New Madrid fault zone?
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:26:01 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:


The Corps of Engineers seems to have dropped this ball big time.

BUll puckey. Why should it be the federal Governments problem? Why
should they (us) spend to protect a single city against it's own
stupidity?



Water flows both ways.
Drain the marshes == Storm surges are much worse.
Increase the speed of the Mississippi == Increase sand bars
& the power of the flow to cause the river to wander & form
new channels.
In addition, those marshes *USED* to be areas for things
like fish & shrimp to breed ....

Don't expect much Gulf seafood for a few years ... not to mention
that the Gulf is now a bit toxic ..

A better idea, IF New Orleans is to be rebuilt, is to rebuild it
with many compartments with dikes inbetween.


Crappy Idea, the same one that just failed!

IF it is to be rebuilt, then rebuild it above sea level, not below.
Yes build dikes to help with storm surge, and then permanently deny
the area federal flood insurance.
jk

jk wrote:
Cliff wrote:


On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:26:01 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:



The Corps of Engineers seems to have dropped this ball big time.


BUll puckey. Why should it be the federal Governments problem? Why
should they (us) spend to protect a single city against it's own
stupidity?



Water flows both ways.
Drain the marshes == Storm surges are much worse.
Increase the speed of the Mississippi == Increase sand bars
& the power of the flow to cause the river to wander & form
new channels.
In addition, those marshes *USED* to be areas for things
like fish & shrimp to breed ....

Don't expect much Gulf seafood for a few years ... not to mention
that the Gulf is now a bit toxic ..

A better idea, IF New Orleans is to be rebuilt, is to rebuild it
with many compartments with dikes inbetween.



Crappy Idea, the same one that just failed!

IF it is to be rebuilt, then rebuild it above sea level, not below.
Yes build dikes to help with storm surge, and then permanently deny
the area federal flood insurance.
jk

First bulldoze the place flat.

Then get in touch with the Governors of Montana, Colorado the Dakotas,
Any were the Missouri river runs through. Get them to pony up large
boulders (tuck size of granite) and float them down the river on barges,

Unload the boulders at New Orleans drill holes in them for two inch
rear and start place them in 1/4 mile squares with forms 20 feet high
each side.

Once you have 20 feet of boulders in place, fill the vacant space with
concrete. Then move on to the next 1/4 mile square.

Places in the city that were under sea level may need a second 20 foot
layer of large rock and concrete. Once you have added 20 feet to the
city you can start the construction of buildings again.

Now the city is 20 feet above sea level and you don't have to worry
about erosion, levies, lake ponchitrane, the Mississippi river or any
thing else. You also now have a floating platform (yes rock floats on
soil, why do you think rocks come up in the spring after the spring
rains)that will retard the sinking of the city.

This may be more expensive in the short run but will save beau coup
bucks over the centuries.



The New, New Orleans is not

--
There are in fact two things, Science and opinion,
the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.

Hippocrates
467-377 B.C.

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:26:01 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Seems to me, a major project should be started - something like the moon race
or the Panama canal - more like it - to clean up and direct the flow
once and for all. I know the whole delta lives from the flow, but a central
channel that will drain off he fast snow melt from the central part of the country
as well as a storm that hits the port.

The Corps of Engineers seems to have dropped this ball big time. I rather suspect
(as is typical in AK and LA ...) state politics entered and a baby
channel was put through the city. Should have been pressure release valves that
would pop on the sides (by nature or man) and open flood gates that
skirt the city. Man made pumps are nice for drip and runoff. But a storm
or a flood from rain on snow requires controls that are massive.
From the looks at the channel, I think it was a major major mistake in Engineering
or even a larger on in politics. It should not continue.

Martin

The Corps Of Engineers and FEMA shouldn't be spending US Federal
money on a city that was sited in a stupid place, unless they fix the
underlying problems that make it a disaster magnet first.

If they insist on rebuilding New Orleans right where it stands, and
at exactly the same elevation, I would agree with the "No Federal
Bailouts - You know It's Going To Happen Again" policy, but we could
never get that through. If they tried that, you could hear the
wailing two states over.

Plan A:

The Federal and local governments need to sit down and look at The
Big Picture. They should require that if property owners want FEMA
and insurance coverage in the future, as they rebuild they bring in
fill and raise their houses and businesses at least above sea level,
if not a few feet more, and any non-raised buildings are going to pay
prohibitive (punitive) insurance premiums.

You can leave the streets, parks and open spaces a few feet lower,
they can act as the storm channels for when (not if) another hurricane
or storm surge hits. And plan the main roads and highways as elevated
along their whole length to provide an effective escape route.

This would require that the city, county, state and federal
governments totally rebuild their respective roads and highways, and
the utility districts rebuild the sewers, water and other lines along
and/or under them, but that is often quick and cheap when you do it en
masse. Face it, the roads and utilities all need major repairs or a
full reconstruction right now - and you wanted a good excuse to
convert to all underground utilities while you're at it, didn't you?
The wind can't knock down a power pole that isn't there.

And this time don't route all the major fiber-optic lines coming
into town inside the Lake Ponchartrain Causeway bridges (after you
rebuild them) it doesn't help the emergency phone reliability...

Bring in a rail line, you'll need A Whole Lot of fill dirt and base
stone. And the 100-ton dump trucks and scrapers needed to move, place
and compact it quickly. Get some "Can Do" People (like Gunner) who
can start scrounging around at old strip mines for the heavy equipment
they'll need, and/or get some of the manufacturers to donate a few.

If the buildings are salvageable (were above the flood) you move
them one lot over, raise and compact the soil, and move them back.
From the looks of it, a good 85% of the buildings are going to need
extensive repairs or complete replacement - if there's mold and rot
through the entire structure and it's leaning to one side, it's much
cheaper to tear it down and start fresh.

Plan B:

Or move the whole stupid city to solid ground, survey out a street
grid, and start over. It's been done before (they moved many
communities to make way for Hoover Dam and other reservoirs) just not
on anywhere near that scale. The majority of the existing city is
really only good for salvage value...

Yes, you can call in house movers - some buildings are solid enough
to be moved to the new location, dropped onto new foundations and
restored for not too much money. And they can deconstruct Bourbon
Street and reassemble it in the new location reusing as much old
material as they can salvage. It can be done to the point where you
can't tell - Proof: London Bridge is now in Arizona...

Summation:

And either way they go, a LOT of the work can be done by the
residents of the cities, ala WPA - there are a lot of disadvantaged
people, but I'll bet many can learn several new skills or trades in
the process with a little instruction and direction.

Besides the city reconstruction itself, there are hundreds of
thousands of cars, trucks, buses, semi trailers, major appliances,
industrial equipment, etc. that need to be collected together,
assessed, and either properly salvaged (returned to the owners if
possible) or the hazardous materials remediated and the equipment
scrapped out for parts.

And after it's all done it will truly be Their City, because the
residents rebuilt it with their own hands and hearts, with help from
the rest of the country.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Wrong State, wrong area. It feeds water towards them but by the time it gets
near, the movement slows and widens. ":"

"The New Madrid Seismic zone lies within the central Mississippi Valley,
extending from northeast Arkansas, through southeast
Missouri, western Tennessee, western Kentucky to southern Illinois.
Historically, this area has been the site of some of the largest
earthquakes in North America. Between 1811 and 1812, 4 catastrophic
earthquakes, with magnitude estimates greater than 7.0, occurred
during a 3-month period. Hundreds of aftershocks followed over a period
of several years. The largest earthquakes to have occurred
since then were on January 4, 1843 and October 31, 1895 with magnitude
estimates of 6.0 and 6.2 respectively. In addition to these
events, seven events of magnitude = 5.0 have occurred in the area.
Instruments were installed in and around this area in 1974 to
closely monitor seismic activity. Since then, more than 4000 earthquakes
have been located, most of which are too small to be felt.
On average one earthquake per year will be large enough to be felt in the area.

The New Madrid seismic zone is so named because the town of New Madrid,
Missouri was the closest settlement to the epicenters of the
1811-1812 quakes. At that time, St. Louis and other major cities in the
central U.S. were sparsely settled. At least 3 of the series
of earthquakes were felt throughout much of the U.S. and as far away as
Quebec. The potential for the recurrence of such earthquakes
and their impact today on densely populated cities in and around the
seismic zone, has generated much research devoted to
understanding earthquakes. By closely monitoring the earthquake activity,
scientists can hope to understand their causes, recurrence
rates, ground motion and disaster mitigation.
NOTE::::
The probability for an
earthquake of magnitude 6.0 or greater is significant in the
near future, with a 50% chance by the year 2000 and a 90% chance
by the year 2040. A quake with a magnitude equal to that of the
1811- 1812 quakes could result in great loss of life and property
damage in the billions of dollars. Scientists believe we could be
overdue for a large earthquake and through research and public
awareness may be able to prevent such losses.
"
end of ::::ETON

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


Cliff wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:27:49 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:


The problem lines in there isn't a hill there.


I just wasted a small bit of sarcasm then G. The New Madrid fault zone?

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"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:26:01 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Seems to me, a major project should be started - something like the moon race
or the Panama canal - more like it - to clean up and direct the flow
once and for all. I know the whole delta lives from the flow, but a central
channel that will drain off he fast snow melt from the central part of the country
as well as a storm that hits the port.

The Corps of Engineers seems to have dropped this ball big time. I rather suspect
(as is typical in AK and LA ...) state politics entered and a baby
channel was put through the city. Should have been pressure release valves that
would pop on the sides (by nature or man) and open flood gates that
skirt the city. Man made pumps are nice for drip and runoff. But a storm
or a flood from rain on snow requires controls that are massive.
From the looks at the channel, I think it was a major major mistake in Engineering
or even a larger on in politics. It should not continue.

Martin

The Corps Of Engineers and FEMA shouldn't be spending US Federal
money on a city that was sited in a stupid place, unless they fix the
underlying problems that make it a disaster magnet first.

If they insist on rebuilding New Orleans right where it stands, and
at exactly the same elevation, I would agree with the "No Federal
Bailouts - You know It's Going To Happen Again" policy, but we could
never get that through. If they tried that, you could hear the
wailing two states over.

Plan A:

The Federal and local governments need to sit down and look at The
Big Picture. They should require that if property owners want FEMA
and insurance coverage in the future, as they rebuild they bring in
fill and raise their houses and businesses at least above sea level,
if not a few feet more, and any non-raised buildings are going to pay
prohibitive (punitive) insurance premiums.

You can leave the streets, parks and open spaces a few feet lower,
they can act as the storm channels for when (not if) another hurricane
or storm surge hits. And plan the main roads and highways as elevated
along their whole length to provide an effective escape route.

This would require that the city, county, state and federal
governments totally rebuild their respective roads and highways, and
the utility districts rebuild the sewers, water and other lines along
and/or under them, but that is often quick and cheap when you do it en
masse. Face it, the roads and utilities all need major repairs or a
full reconstruction right now - and you wanted a good excuse to
convert to all underground utilities while you're at it, didn't you?
The wind can't knock down a power pole that isn't there.

And this time don't route all the major fiber-optic lines coming
into town inside the Lake Ponchartrain Causeway bridges (after you
rebuild them) it doesn't help the emergency phone reliability...

Bring in a rail line, you'll need A Whole Lot of fill dirt and base
stone. And the 100-ton dump trucks and scrapers needed to move, place
and compact it quickly. Get some "Can Do" People (like Gunner) who
can start scrounging around at old strip mines for the heavy equipment
they'll need, and/or get some of the manufacturers to donate a few.

If the buildings are salvageable (were above the flood) you move
them one lot over, raise and compact the soil, and move them back.
From the looks of it, a good 85% of the buildings are going to need
extensive repairs or complete replacement - if there's mold and rot
through the entire structure and it's leaning to one side, it's much
cheaper to tear it down and start fresh.

Plan B:

Or move the whole stupid city to solid ground, survey out a street
grid, and start over. It's been done before (they moved many
communities to make way for Hoover Dam and other reservoirs) just not
on anywhere near that scale. The majority of the existing city is
really only good for salvage value...

Yes, you can call in house movers - some buildings are solid enough
to be moved to the new location, dropped onto new foundations and
restored for not too much money. And they can deconstruct Bourbon
Street and reassemble it in the new location reusing as much old
material as they can salvage. It can be done to the point where you
can't tell - Proof: London Bridge is now in Arizona...

Summation:

And either way they go, a LOT of the work can be done by the
residents of the cities, ala WPA - there are a lot of disadvantaged
people, but I'll bet many can learn several new skills or trades in
the process with a little instruction and direction.

Besides the city reconstruction itself, there are hundreds of
thousands of cars, trucks, buses, semi trailers, major appliances,
industrial equipment, etc. that need to be collected together,
assessed, and either properly salvaged (returned to the owners if
possible) or the hazardous materials remediated and the equipment
scrapped out for parts.

And after it's all done it will truly be Their City, because the
residents rebuilt it with their own hands and hearts, with help from
the rest of the country.


--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700




After reading literally hundreds of posts on the New Orleans
situation
that have mostly been limited to essentially acrimonious finger pointing
of one sort or another and not worth the time to respond to... here are
two posts (the one by Pope Secola VI and the one by Bruce Bergman) that
seem to be positive attempts at actually trying to provide solutions to
the
problem of rebuilding New Orleans so a repeat of the current type of
disaster is minimized.
THESE are the sorts of constructive posts I would EXPECT from
intelligent people
used to solving problems in the machining/mechanical trades, as opposed
to puerile whining about which political party's fault it is that the
disaster happened.
We've even got posters wishing people of different political ideologies
were dead, Jeeze, are they just trolling or are they really
psychopathic?


The Japanese built "Kansai International Airport" on a man-made
island
5 kilometers out to sea.

http://www.takenaka.co.jp/takenaka_e...ix/kiindex.htm

I'm sure we could use similar, or even improved, construction
methods
to rebuild New Orleans above sea level.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

I suggest you read Cliff -

I said bypass the city - not to kill off the Delta.
The city is at the end of the delta anyway.
The Marsh area is a massive area that needs flushing from time to time
and needs seeping - to keep up that type of life - if we want to keep it up.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:26:01 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:


Seems to me, a major project should be started - something like the moon race
or the Panama canal - more like it - to clean up and direct the flow
once and for all. I know the whole delta lives from the flow, but a central
channel that will drain off he fast snow melt from the central part of the country
as well as a storm that hits the port.

The Corps of Engineers seems to have dropped this ball big time. I rather suspect
(as is typical in AK and LA ...) state politics entered and a baby
channel was put through the city. Should have been pressure release valves that
would pop on the sides (by nature or man) and open flood gates that
skirt the city. Man made pumps are nice for drip and runoff. But a storm
or a flood from rain on snow requires controls that are massive.
From the looks at the channel, I think it was a major major mistake in Engineering
or even a larger on in politics. It should not continue.


Water flows both ways.
Drain the marshes == Storm surges are much worse.
Increase the speed of the Mississippi == Increase sand bars
& the power of the flow to cause the river to wander & form
new channels.
In addition, those marshes *USED* to be areas for things
like fish & shrimp to breed ....

Don't expect much Gulf seafood for a few years ... not to mention
that the Gulf is now a bit toxic ..

A better idea, IF New Orleans is to be rebuilt, is to rebuild it
with many compartments with dikes inbetween.

Probably lots of AutoCad-like folks will be needed ... IF. I'd
expect only those firms related to shipping & oil-processing
to return to the area with any great speed.
Everyone else that evacuated will need new housing & jobs
elsewhere.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

BottleBob wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:26:01 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Seems to me, a major project should be started - something like the
moon race
or the Panama canal - more like it - to clean up and direct the flow
once and for all. I know the whole delta lives from the flow, but
a central channel that will drain off he fast snow melt from the
central part of the country as well as a storm that hits the port.

The Corps of Engineers seems to have dropped this ball big time. I
rather suspect (as is typical in AK and LA ...) state politics
entered and a baby
channel was put through the city. Should have been pressure
release valves that would pop on the sides (by nature or man) and
open flood gates that
skirt the city. Man made pumps are nice for drip and runoff. But
a storm
or a flood from rain on snow requires controls that are massive.
From the looks at the channel, I think it was a major major mistake
in Engineering or even a larger on in politics. It should not
continue.

Martin

The Corps Of Engineers and FEMA shouldn't be spending US Federal
money on a city that was sited in a stupid place, unless they fix the
underlying problems that make it a disaster magnet first.

If they insist on rebuilding New Orleans right where it stands, and
at exactly the same elevation, I would agree with the "No Federal
Bailouts - You know It's Going To Happen Again" policy, but we could
never get that through. If they tried that, you could hear the
wailing two states over.

Plan A:

The Federal and local governments need to sit down and look at The
Big Picture. They should require that if property owners want FEMA
and insurance coverage in the future, as they rebuild they bring in
fill and raise their houses and businesses at least above sea level,
if not a few feet more, and any non-raised buildings are going to pay
prohibitive (punitive) insurance premiums.

You can leave the streets, parks and open spaces a few feet lower,
they can act as the storm channels for when (not if) another
hurricane
or storm surge hits. And plan the main roads and highways as
elevated
along their whole length to provide an effective escape route.

This would require that the city, county, state and federal
governments totally rebuild their respective roads and highways, and
the utility districts rebuild the sewers, water and other lines along
and/or under them, but that is often quick and cheap when you do it
en
masse. Face it, the roads and utilities all need major repairs or a
full reconstruction right now - and you wanted a good excuse to
convert to all underground utilities while you're at it, didn't you?
The wind can't knock down a power pole that isn't there.

And this time don't route all the major fiber-optic lines coming
into town inside the Lake Ponchartrain Causeway bridges (after you
rebuild them) it doesn't help the emergency phone reliability...

Bring in a rail line, you'll need A Whole Lot of fill dirt and base
stone. And the 100-ton dump trucks and scrapers needed to move, place
and compact it quickly. Get some "Can Do" People (like Gunner) who
can start scrounging around at old strip mines for the heavy
equipment
they'll need, and/or get some of the manufacturers to donate a few.

If the buildings are salvageable (were above the flood) you move
them one lot over, raise and compact the soil, and move them back.
From the looks of it, a good 85% of the buildings are going to need
extensive repairs or complete replacement - if there's mold and rot
through the entire structure and it's leaning to one side, it's much
cheaper to tear it down and start fresh.

Plan B:

Or move the whole stupid city to solid ground, survey out a street
grid, and start over. It's been done before (they moved many
communities to make way for Hoover Dam and other reservoirs) just not
on anywhere near that scale. The majority of the existing city is
really only good for salvage value...

Yes, you can call in house movers - some buildings are solid enough
to be moved to the new location, dropped onto new foundations and
restored for not too much money. And they can deconstruct Bourbon
Street and reassemble it in the new location reusing as much old
material as they can salvage. It can be done to the point where you
can't tell - Proof: London Bridge is now in Arizona...

Summation:

And either way they go, a LOT of the work can be done by the
residents of the cities, ala WPA - there are a lot of disadvantaged
people, but I'll bet many can learn several new skills or trades in
the process with a little instruction and direction.

Besides the city reconstruction itself, there are hundreds of
thousands of cars, trucks, buses, semi trailers, major appliances,
industrial equipment, etc. that need to be collected together,
assessed, and either properly salvaged (returned to the owners if
possible) or the hazardous materials remediated and the equipment
scrapped out for parts.

And after it's all done it will truly be Their City, because the
residents rebuilt it with their own hands and hearts, with help from
the rest of the country.


--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700




After reading literally hundreds of posts on the New Orleans
situation
that have mostly been limited to essentially acrimonious finger
pointing
of one sort or another and not worth the time to respond to... here
are
two posts (the one by Pope Secola VI and the one by Bruce Bergman)
that
seem to be positive attempts at actually trying to provide solutions
to
the
problem of rebuilding New Orleans so a repeat of the current type of
disaster is minimized.
THESE are the sorts of constructive posts I would EXPECT from
intelligent people
used to solving problems in the machining/mechanical trades, as
opposed
to puerile whining about which political party's fault it is that the
disaster happened.
We've even got posters wishing people of different political
ideologies
were dead, Jeeze, are they just trolling or are they really
psychopathic?


The Japanese built "Kansai International Airport" on a man-made
island
5 kilometers out to sea.

http://www.takenaka.co.jp/takenaka_e...ix/kiindex.htm

I'm sure we could use similar, or even improved, construction
methods
to rebuild New Orleans above sea level.

Jeez Bob;
Don't confuse these poor folks with the voice of reason!
Politics-psychopathic - gee - don't those two words go together with a
poetic nicety?

I'm a politician, so are you.
Do we disagree?
Yes indeed.
Ain't it fun
Yes indeed.
Doesn't matter who gets harmed.
Doesn't matter what is lost.
Doesn't matter who is dead.
Only matters - where they red?
Doesn't matter - where they black?
Only matters - were they we?

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:26:01 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Seems to me, a major project should be started - something like the
moon race
or the Panama canal - more like it - to clean up and direct the flow
once and for all. I know the whole delta lives from the flow, but a
central
channel that will drain off he fast snow melt from the central part of
the country
as well as a storm that hits the port.

The Corps of Engineers seems to have dropped this ball big time. I
rather suspect
(as is typical in AK and LA ...) state politics entered and a baby
channel was put through the city. Should have been pressure release
valves that
would pop on the sides (by nature or man) and open flood gates that
skirt the city. Man made pumps are nice for drip and runoff. But a
storm
or a flood from rain on snow requires controls that are massive.
From the looks at the channel, I think it was a major major mistake in
Engineering
or even a larger on in politics. It should not continue.

Martin

The Corps Of Engineers and FEMA shouldn't be spending US Federal
money on a city that was sited in a stupid place, unless they fix the
underlying problems that make it a disaster magnet first.

If they insist on rebuilding New Orleans right where it stands, and
at exactly the same elevation, I would agree with the "No Federal
Bailouts - You know It's Going To Happen Again" policy, but we could
never get that through. If they tried that, you could hear the
wailing two states over.

Plan A:

The Federal and local governments need to sit down and look at The
Big Picture. They should require that if property owners want FEMA
and insurance coverage in the future, as they rebuild they bring in
fill and raise their houses and businesses at least above sea level,
if not a few feet more, and any non-raised buildings are going to pay
prohibitive (punitive) insurance premiums.

You can leave the streets, parks and open spaces a few feet lower,
they can act as the storm channels for when (not if) another hurricane
or storm surge hits. And plan the main roads and highways as elevated
along their whole length to provide an effective escape route.

This would require that the city, county, state and federal
governments totally rebuild their respective roads and highways, and
the utility districts rebuild the sewers, water and other lines along
and/or under them, but that is often quick and cheap when you do it en
masse. Face it, the roads and utilities all need major repairs or a
full reconstruction right now - and you wanted a good excuse to
convert to all underground utilities while you're at it, didn't you?
The wind can't knock down a power pole that isn't there.

And this time don't route all the major fiber-optic lines coming
into town inside the Lake Ponchartrain Causeway bridges (after you
rebuild them) it doesn't help the emergency phone reliability...

Bring in a rail line, you'll need A Whole Lot of fill dirt and base
stone. And the 100-ton dump trucks and scrapers needed to move, place
and compact it quickly. Get some "Can Do" People (like Gunner) who
can start scrounging around at old strip mines for the heavy equipment
they'll need, and/or get some of the manufacturers to donate a few.

If the buildings are salvageable (were above the flood) you move
them one lot over, raise and compact the soil, and move them back.
From the looks of it, a good 85% of the buildings are going to need
extensive repairs or complete replacement - if there's mold and rot
through the entire structure and it's leaning to one side, it's much
cheaper to tear it down and start fresh.

Plan B:

Or move the whole stupid city to solid ground, survey out a street
grid, and start over. It's been done before (they moved many
communities to make way for Hoover Dam and other reservoirs) just not
on anywhere near that scale. The majority of the existing city is
really only good for salvage value...

Yes, you can call in house movers - some buildings are solid enough
to be moved to the new location, dropped onto new foundations and
restored for not too much money. And they can deconstruct Bourbon
Street and reassemble it in the new location reusing as much old
material as they can salvage. It can be done to the point where you
can't tell - Proof: London Bridge is now in Arizona...

Summation:

And either way they go, a LOT of the work can be done by the
residents of the cities, ala WPA - there are a lot of disadvantaged
people, but I'll bet many can learn several new skills or trades in
the process with a little instruction and direction.

Besides the city reconstruction itself, there are hundreds of
thousands of cars, trucks, buses, semi trailers, major appliances,
industrial equipment, etc. that need to be collected together,
assessed, and either properly salvaged (returned to the owners if
possible) or the hazardous materials remediated and the equipment
scrapped out for parts.

And after it's all done it will truly be Their City, because the
residents rebuilt it with their own hands and hearts, with help from
the rest of the country.


--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700




After reading literally hundreds of posts on the New Orleans
situation
that have mostly been limited to essentially acrimonious finger pointing
of one sort or another and not worth the time to respond to... here are
two posts (the one by Pope Secola VI and the one by Bruce Bergman) that
seem to be positive attempts at actually trying to provide solutions to
the
problem of rebuilding New Orleans so a repeat of the current type of
disaster is minimized.
THESE are the sorts of constructive posts I would EXPECT from
intelligent people
used to solving problems in the machining/mechanical trades, as opposed
to puerile whining about which political party's fault it is that the
disaster happened.
We've even got posters wishing people of different political ideologies
were dead, Jeeze, are they just trolling or are they really
psychopathic?


The Japanese built "Kansai International Airport" on a man-made
island
5 kilometers out to sea.

http://www.takenaka.co.jp/takenaka_e...ix/kiindex.htm

I'm sure we could use similar, or even improved, construction
methods
to rebuild New Orleans above sea level.


Bob,
Not only could we - we could have. The studies were completed in 1998 and
the plan was brought up the first time during the first year of the Bush
administration and was thought to be pie in the sky expensive in spite of
the fact that losses from a CAT 4 or 5 hurricane had been projected to
exceed 60 billion dollars. As it turns out the loss estimate appears
conservative. Estimates today are running in excess of 100 billion dollars.
New Orleans will be rebuilt at least as a port, refining center and trans
shipment/storage facility.

"MR. TIDWELL: I don't think we should fix a single window in New Orleans
unless as a nation we commit to this $14 billion plan called Coast 2050.
You can Google it under the Coalition to Restore Coastal Louisiana. It's
been on the table since the mid-'90s. The Bush administration has had all
kinds of folks in New Orleans and in Louisiana begging for funding for
this--the cost of the Big Dig--to restore the Barrier islands, to fix the
wetlands because without that, New Orleans is an endangered city forever. "


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
. ..

chop more liberal inasnity

John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

Where was he going to get the money? Do you actually expect anyone to
believe that if he proposed dumping that much money in New Orleans alone
he would get anything but the obstructionism that defines the Democrat
activities in the House and Senate?

Why didnt Clinton do anything?

Why is it that simple *******s like you can *only* blame Bush for just
everything.

BTW, I will never purchase or use software made by liberal morons like you,
you sealed that deal with your rabid idiocy.






--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

"Sheldon Marks" wrote in message
.. .
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
. ..

chop more liberal inasnity

John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

Where was he going to get the money? Do you actually expect anyone to
believe that if he proposed dumping that much money in New Orleans alone
he would get anything but the obstructionism that defines the Democrat
activities in the House and Senate?

I would wager the money will be found somewhere now. It will be more
expensive now than it was then but as I said, it will be done.




Why didnt Clinton do anything?

Good question, although he wouldn't have had much time and it's not
relevant, Bush won you know.This also came up in the house after the 2000
election cycle as a bill sponsored by John Breaux and others. If you
download the study instead of prattling on you would know that.
It is very instructive and covers a great deal of historical data in a
readable format. I'll put it on my FTP server for you if you like.


Why is it that simple *******s like you can *only* blame Bush for just
everything.

I don't blame him for everything. I do, however, hold him responsible for
his performance.
Results, or the lack thereof, count for a lot.



BTW, I will never purchase or use software made by liberal morons like
you,
you sealed that deal with your rabid idiocy.

Cut me to the quick with that one.
I never have attempted to please everyone but BottleBob asked for cogent
input and I provided a little.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com