Been looking a little at ethanol production, I hear it's cheaper to make
from sugar than it is from corn or grain mash. If it took a lot of
continuous work I wouldn't mess with it because I have more important things
to do with my time, I get paid more for overtime at work than I could save
on fuel.

So anyway in my hobbies I mess with automation and controls, I have a dozen
or so PLC's around here to play with or make things with. I have
thermocouple, RTD, and other assorted I/O modules for the PLC's.

If I could weigh up sugar, mix with water, and add yeast automatically,
transport to a fermentation tank, wait a few days, maybe having a few small
fermentation tanks, I could get a somewhat steady supply of alcohol/water.
Then for the distiller, use a continuous mode where mix is added in, alcohol
is evaporated out the top and water goes out the bottom. It would seem that
with a properly sized heating element, it could be left on high and the
temperature controlled by the flow of alcohol/water going into the boiler.
If the top of the fracturing column is at alcohol temperature, slow or stop
the inflow, as alcohol is evaporated the temperature should rise the flow
coming in could be increased. Should all be pretty much automatic,
shouldn't need a larger boiler or still since there would be a constant
supply of alcohol / water until the fermentation tank was empty.

It seems like with a few valves, tanks, and a pump, plus the boiler and a
chilled receiver, alcohol production may be do-able without too much daily
time and effort. Not sure it would save enough money to pay for itself but
a small continuous type setup seems like it could cut a lot of the labor
out.

RogerN

On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:
Been looking a little at ethanol production, I hear it's cheaper to make
from sugar than it is from corn or grain mash. If it took a lot of
continuous work I wouldn't mess with it because I have more important things
to do with my time, I get paid more for overtime at work than I could save
on fuel.

So anyway in my hobbies I mess with automation and controls, I have a dozen
or so PLC's around here to play with or make things with. I have
thermocouple, RTD, and other assorted I/O modules for the PLC's.

If I could weigh up sugar, mix with water, and add yeast automatically,
transport to a fermentation tank, wait a few days, maybe having a few small
fermentation tanks, I could get a somewhat steady supply of alcohol/water.
Then for the distiller, use a continuous mode where mix is added in, alcohol
is evaporated out the top and water goes out the bottom. It would seem that
with a properly sized heating element, it could be left on high and the
temperature controlled by the flow of alcohol/water going into the boiler.
If the top of the fracturing column is at alcohol temperature, slow or stop
the inflow, as alcohol is evaporated the temperature should rise the flow
coming in could be increased. Should all be pretty much automatic,
shouldn't need a larger boiler or still since there would be a constant
supply of alcohol / water until the fermentation tank was empty.

It seems like with a few valves, tanks, and a pump, plus the boiler and a
chilled receiver, alcohol production may be do-able without too much daily
time and effort. Not sure it would save enough money to pay for itself but
a small continuous type setup seems like it could cut a lot of the labor
out.

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

Making alcohol by distilling leaves it fairly contaminated as far as
drinking it is concerned.

Also, any small distillery is fairly energy inefficient.

I made a still back in Russia when I was 15. It worked. The product
was not so great for drinking.

i

On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:42:09 -0500, Ignoramus20944
wrote:

On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:
Been looking a little at ethanol production, I hear it's cheaper to make
from sugar than it is from corn or grain mash. If it took a lot of
continuous work I wouldn't mess with it because I have more important things
to do with my time, I get paid more for overtime at work than I could save
on fuel.

So anyway in my hobbies I mess with automation and controls, I have a dozen
or so PLC's around here to play with or make things with. I have
thermocouple, RTD, and other assorted I/O modules for the PLC's.

If I could weigh up sugar, mix with water, and add yeast automatically,
transport to a fermentation tank, wait a few days, maybe having a few small
fermentation tanks, I could get a somewhat steady supply of alcohol/water.
Then for the distiller, use a continuous mode where mix is added in, alcohol
is evaporated out the top and water goes out the bottom. It would seem that
with a properly sized heating element, it could be left on high and the
temperature controlled by the flow of alcohol/water going into the boiler.
If the top of the fracturing column is at alcohol temperature, slow or stop
the inflow, as alcohol is evaporated the temperature should rise the flow
coming in could be increased. Should all be pretty much automatic,
shouldn't need a larger boiler or still since there would be a constant
supply of alcohol / water until the fermentation tank was empty.

It seems like with a few valves, tanks, and a pump, plus the boiler and a
chilled receiver, alcohol production may be do-able without too much daily
time and effort. Not sure it would save enough money to pay for itself but
a small continuous type setup seems like it could cut a lot of the labor
out.

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

Making alcohol by distilling leaves it fairly contaminated as far as
drinking it is concerned.

Also, any small distillery is fairly energy inefficient.

I made a still back in Russia when I was 15. It worked. The product
was not so great for drinking.

i
An RO system would be more efficient.

On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:04:08 -0500, RogerN wrote:

Been looking a little at ethanol production, I hear it's cheaper to make
from sugar than it is from corn or grain mash. If it took a lot of
continuous work I wouldn't mess with it because I have more important
things to do with my time, I get paid more for overtime at work than I
could save on fuel.

So anyway in my hobbies I mess with automation and controls, I have a
dozen or so PLC's around here to play with or make things with. I have
thermocouple, RTD, and other assorted I/O modules for the PLC's.

If I could weigh up sugar, mix with water, and add yeast automatically,
transport to a fermentation tank, wait a few days, maybe having a few
small fermentation tanks, I could get a somewhat steady supply of
alcohol/water. Then for the distiller, use a continuous mode where mix
is added in, alcohol is evaporated out the top and water goes out the
bottom. It would seem that with a properly sized heating element, it
could be left on high and the temperature controlled by the flow of
alcohol/water going into the boiler. If the top of the fracturing column
is at alcohol temperature, slow or stop the inflow, as alcohol is
evaporated the temperature should rise the flow coming in could be
increased. Should all be pretty much automatic, shouldn't need a larger
boiler or still since there would be a constant supply of alcohol /
water until the fermentation tank was empty.

It seems like with a few valves, tanks, and a pump, plus the boiler and
a chilled receiver, alcohol production may be do-able without too much
daily time and effort. Not sure it would save enough money to pay for
itself but a small continuous type setup seems like it could cut a lot
of the labor out.

RogerN

I'm not sure that a continuous system is even going to work -- alcohol
and water are quite happy together, and you're bound to have convection.
I think the only alcohol on the "top" is going to be the stuff that's
boiled off.

So I think you're doomed to have some sort of a batch process. Putting
in the next batch of fermented stuff as you draw out the spent batch
would help with the energy efficiency, particularly if you make up some
sort of a heat transfer gizmo.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:04:08 -0500, RogerN wrote:

Been looking a little at ethanol production, I hear it's cheaper to make
from sugar than it is from corn or grain mash. If it took a lot of
continuous work I wouldn't mess with it because I have more important
things to do with my time, I get paid more for overtime at work than I
could save on fuel.

So anyway in my hobbies I mess with automation and controls, I have a
dozen or so PLC's around here to play with or make things with. I have
thermocouple, RTD, and other assorted I/O modules for the PLC's.

If I could weigh up sugar, mix with water, and add yeast automatically,
transport to a fermentation tank, wait a few days, maybe having a few
small fermentation tanks, I could get a somewhat steady supply of
alcohol/water. Then for the distiller, use a continuous mode where mix
is added in, alcohol is evaporated out the top and water goes out the
bottom. It would seem that with a properly sized heating element, it
could be left on high and the temperature controlled by the flow of
alcohol/water going into the boiler. If the top of the fracturing column
is at alcohol temperature, slow or stop the inflow, as alcohol is
evaporated the temperature should rise the flow coming in could be
increased. Should all be pretty much automatic, shouldn't need a larger
boiler or still since there would be a constant supply of alcohol /
water until the fermentation tank was empty.

It seems like with a few valves, tanks, and a pump, plus the boiler and
a chilled receiver, alcohol production may be do-able without too much
daily time and effort. Not sure it would save enough money to pay for
itself but a small continuous type setup seems like it could cut a lot
of the labor out.

RogerN

I'm not sure that a continuous system is even going to work -- alcohol
and water are quite happy together, and you're bound to have convection.
I think the only alcohol on the "top" is going to be the stuff that's
boiled off.

So I think you're doomed to have some sort of a batch process. Putting
in the next batch of fermented stuff as you draw out the spent batch
would help with the energy efficiency, particularly if you make up some
sort of a heat transfer gizmo.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

The amount of heat that ends up in the alcohol itself isn't a whole lot,
with most of the heat used in distilling simply being spent in raising the
entire wash temperature to the point at which the alcohol(s) boil off...

--if you want to drink it, first you raise (and hold) the temp till all of
the methanol boils off, discarding that because it's poison...after this,
you again raise the temperature till the ethanol boils off, holding it there
and collecting....now what you finally will have left is mostly hot water
and dead yeast, easy enough to recover the heat from that concoction by
using a counterflow chiller but unless you have another batch that's all
ready to go or you have some other use for hot water then there's really not
much sense..

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...

snip

I'm not sure that a continuous system is even going to work -- alcohol
and water are quite happy together, and you're bound to have convection.
I think the only alcohol on the "top" is going to be the stuff that's
boiled off.

So I think you're doomed to have some sort of a batch process. Putting
in the next batch of fermented stuff as you draw out the spent batch
would help with the energy efficiency, particularly if you make up some
sort of a heat transfer gizmo.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com


Here's some info.

http://homedistiller.org/equip/cont
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Column_still
http://www.ferromit.com/continuous%20still.html With Videos
http://www.instructables.com/id/Chea...ic-fuel-still/

The first link is close to what I'm thinking of, not exactly though. If
water is heated to 210 Deg. F would their be much/any alcohol left in it?

RogerN

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:04:08 -0500, RogerN wrote:
snip
So I think you're doomed to have some sort of a batch process. Putting
in the next batch of fermented stuff as you draw out the spent batch
would help with the energy efficiency, particularly if you make up some
sort of a heat transfer gizmo.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

The amount of heat that ends up in the alcohol itself isn't a whole lot,
with most of the heat used in distilling simply being spent in raising the
entire wash temperature to the point at which the alcohol(s) boil off...

--if you want to drink it, first you raise (and hold) the temp till all of
the methanol boils off, discarding that because it's poison...after this,
you again raise the temperature till the ethanol boils off, holding it
there and collecting....now what you finally will have left is mostly hot
water and dead yeast, easy enough to recover the heat from that concoction
by using a counterflow chiller but unless you have another batch that's all
ready to go or you have some other use for hot water then there's really
not much sense..

I never thought of it but I guess the overflow of hot water could be used to
pre-heat the alcohol/water going into the still, no need to waste all the
heat.

RogerN

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

Making alcohol by distilling leaves it fairly contaminated as far as
drinking it is concerned.

Also, any small distillery is fairly energy inefficient.

I made a still back in Russia when I was 15. It worked. The product
was not so great for drinking.

i

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

RogerN

On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:04:08 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

Been looking a little at ethanol production, I hear it's cheaper to make

http://www.viatrack.ca/Misc/distilat...%20alcohol.pdf


Regards,

Boris Mohar

Got Knock? - see:
Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca

void _-void-_ in the obvious place

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
...
Here's some info.

http://homedistiller.org/equip/cont
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Column_still
http://www.ferromit.com/continuous%20still.html With Videos
http://www.instructables.com/id/Chea...ic-fuel-still/

The first link is close to what I'm thinking of, not exactly though.
If water is heated to 210 Deg. F would their be much/any alcohol
left in it?

RogerN

If you have to ask that you don't know nearly enough chemistry to
design a continuous process still.

Dig in:
http://www.nt.ntnu.no/users/skoge/pu...tiontheory.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionating_column
Making it continuous requires some serious chemical engineering and
probably real-time analysis of the product stream. I'd start with
having it sense when the distillation completes and shut down.

jsw

On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:04:08 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

Been looking a little at ethanol production, I hear it's cheaper to make
from sugar than it is from corn or grain mash. If it took a lot of
continuous work I wouldn't mess with it because I have more important things
to do with my time, I get paid more for overtime at work than I could save
on fuel.

So anyway in my hobbies I mess with automation and controls, I have a dozen
or so PLC's around here to play with or make things with. I have
thermocouple, RTD, and other assorted I/O modules for the PLC's.

If I could weigh up sugar, mix with water, and add yeast automatically,
transport to a fermentation tank, wait a few days, maybe having a few small
fermentation tanks, I could get a somewhat steady supply of alcohol/water.
Then for the distiller, use a continuous mode where mix is added in, alcohol
is evaporated out the top and water goes out the bottom. It would seem that
with a properly sized heating element, it could be left on high and the
temperature controlled by the flow of alcohol/water going into the boiler.
If the top of the fracturing column is at alcohol temperature, slow or stop
the inflow, as alcohol is evaporated the temperature should rise the flow
coming in could be increased. Should all be pretty much automatic,
shouldn't need a larger boiler or still since there would be a constant
supply of alcohol / water until the fermentation tank was empty.

It seems like with a few valves, tanks, and a pump, plus the boiler and a
chilled receiver, alcohol production may be do-able without too much daily
time and effort. Not sure it would save enough money to pay for itself but
a small continuous type setup seems like it could cut a lot of the labor
out.

RogerN


I have a mate who is into the sport although he is making it to drink.
He built an electrically heated still and outfitted it with a control
system.

As for fermenting you need to place a measured amount of sugar in a
container with water; add yeast and then monitor the specific gravity
to know when fermentation is complete. Certainly could be
instrumented.

So yes, your idea is certainly possible.

Most stills, by the way, are reflux stills and you distill to get
alcohol, not fracture.

On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 05:57:14 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:


How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

Making alcohol by distilling leaves it fairly contaminated as far as
drinking it is concerned.

Also, any small distillery is fairly energy inefficient.

I made a still back in Russia when I was 15. It worked. The product
was not so great for drinking.

i

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

RogerN


Pot stills are not very efficient and pass a lot besides alcohol,
which of course is why they are used to make whiskey. A reflex still
makes much more pure alcohol. My mate says about 98 or 99% pure.

On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

Making alcohol by distilling leaves it fairly contaminated as far as
drinking it is concerned.

Also, any small distillery is fairly energy inefficient.

I made a still back in Russia when I was 15. It worked. The product
was not so great for drinking.

i

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

The fuel is bound to be very expensive.

i

"Ignoramus11822" wrote in message
...
On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is
better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are
supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

The fuel is bound to be very expensive.

i

Would you have to pay Motor fuel tax?
Does the BATF regulate home stills?

Best Regards
Tom.
--
http://fija.org/

azotic wrote:

"Ignoramus11822" wrote in message
...
On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is
better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are
supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

The fuel is bound to be very expensive.

i

Would you have to pay Motor fuel tax?

Possibly.

Does the BATF regulate home stills?

Definitely. Get the appropriate license before going past the drawing
board stage.

On 2012-08-24, azotic wrote:

"Ignoramus11822" wrote in message
...
On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is
better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are
supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

The fuel is bound to be very expensive.

i

Would you have to pay Motor fuel tax?
Does the BATF regulate home stills?

No and no, as far as I understand.

However, other laws may apply to an industrial plant that Roger wants
to have in his residence.

i

On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 06:24:46 -0700, "azotic"
wrote:


"Ignoramus11822" wrote in message
m...
On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is
better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are
supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

The fuel is bound to be very expensive.

i

Would you have to pay Motor fuel tax?
Does the BATF regulate home stills?

Best Regards
Tom.
Yes and yes. Try getting licensed for a home ethanol fuel still.
Possible, but it will raise your per gallon cost substantially. Not as
much as getting caught without the paperwork though - - - .

"Ignoramus11822" wrote in
message ...
On 2012-08-24, azotic wrote:

"Ignoramus11822" wrote in
message
...
On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:

......................
Would you have to pay Motor fuel tax?
Does the BATF regulate home stills?

No and no, as far as I understand.
However, other laws may apply to an industrial plant that Roger
wants
to have in his residence.
i

http://www.ttb.gov/forms/f511074.pdf

jsw
Googling the answers with dial-up.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...

snip
The first link is close to what I'm thinking of, not exactly though. If
water is heated to 210 Deg. F would their be much/any alcohol left in it?

RogerN

If you have to ask that you don't know nearly enough chemistry to design a
continuous process still.

I agree that I don't know enough chemistry but asking about the alcohol left
in water at 210 Deg F isn't a significant problem, a PLC controlled process
would have adjustable set points and I can change the program to what works
the best. I know ethanol boils at 173 Deg. F but I'm not sure how the water
mixed in alters the temperature. If I do a run at 210 Deg water and 173 Deg
at the top of the column and get it wrong per hydrometer, I can change the
settings and/or change the process, and try again.

Dig in:
http://www.nt.ntnu.no/users/skoge/pu...tiontheory.pdf

Thanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionating_column
Making it continuous requires some serious chemical engineering and
probably real-time analysis of the product stream. I'd start with having it
sense when the distillation completes and shut down.

jsw

"RogerN" wrote in message
...
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...

snip
The first link is close to what I'm thinking of, not exactly
though. If water is heated to 210 Deg. F would their be much/any
alcohol left in it?

RogerN

If you have to ask that you don't know nearly enough chemistry to
design a continuous process still.

I agree that I don't know enough chemistry but asking about the
alcohol left in water at 210 Deg F isn't a significant problem, a
PLC controlled process would have adjustable set points and I can
change the program to what works the best. I know ethanol boils at
173 Deg. F but I'm not sure how the water mixed in alters the
temperature. If I do a run at 210 Deg water and 173 Deg at the top
of the column and get it wrong per hydrometer, I can change the
settings and/or change the process, and try again.


http://amostle.com/blog/wp-content/u...ohol_curve.jpg

jsw

"RogerN" on Fri, 24 Aug 2012 05:57:14 -0500 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

Making alcohol by distilling leaves it fairly contaminated as far as
drinking it is concerned.

Also, any small distillery is fairly energy inefficient.

I made a still back in Russia when I was 15. It worked. The product
was not so great for drinking.

i

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

Where is the methanol coming from? Sugar & yeast produce lots of
fat yeast critters, all ****ing ethanol till they get too drunk to
continue. If you are getting methanol in your product, something else
is wrong.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

"azotic" on Fri, 24 Aug 2012 06:24:46 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"Ignoramus11822" wrote in message
m...
On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is
better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are
supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

The fuel is bound to be very expensive.

i

Would you have to pay Motor fuel tax?
Does the BATF regulate home stills?

Yes. You can make beer and wine, but not distilled spirits.
Another weird law.

And yes, fuel is "expensive" - you are basically boiling a lot of
water in order to get the ethanol to evaporate out of it.

--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

pyotr filipivich fired this volley in
:

If you are getting methanol in your product, something else
is wrong.


The primary "rough" content in a first-pass distillation from ordinary
grain mashes is furfurals. They taste bad, are moderately toxic, and
cause one banger of a hangover, even in tiny concentrations. There are
also some undesirable acetates and oils present in the first pass.

There is not normally any significant methanol content unless the
"still" is hot enough to destructively distill... not likely if there's
still any water left in the mash.

LLoyd

pyotr filipivich wrote:

"azotic" on Fri, 24 Aug 2012 06:24:46 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"Ignoramus11822" wrote in message
m...
On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is
better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are
supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

The fuel is bound to be very expensive.

i

Would you have to pay Motor fuel tax?
Does the BATF regulate home stills?

Yes. You can make beer and wine, but not distilled spirits.
Another weird law.

And yes, fuel is "expensive" - you are basically boiling a lot of
water in order to get the ethanol to evaporate out of it.

That end of things at least could be improved by either using a
concentrating solar collector to provide the heat or a co-gen type setup
heating the cabin in the winter or whatever.

On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 05:54:22 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:04:08 -0500, RogerN wrote:
snip
So I think you're doomed to have some sort of a batch process. Putting
in the next batch of fermented stuff as you draw out the spent batch
would help with the energy efficiency, particularly if you make up some
sort of a heat transfer gizmo.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

The amount of heat that ends up in the alcohol itself isn't a whole lot,
with most of the heat used in distilling simply being spent in raising the
entire wash temperature to the point at which the alcohol(s) boil off...

--if you want to drink it, first you raise (and hold) the temp till all of
the methanol boils off, discarding that because it's poison...after this,
you again raise the temperature till the ethanol boils off, holding it
there and collecting....now what you finally will have left is mostly hot
water and dead yeast, easy enough to recover the heat from that concoction
by using a counterflow chiller but unless you have another batch that's all
ready to go or you have some other use for hot water then there's really
not much sense..

I never thought of it but I guess the overflow of hot water could be used to
pre-heat the alcohol/water going into the still, no need to waste all the
heat.

RogerN

Roger, just another idea for you. I've often thought using vacuum
would be the way to go for small scale fuel production. You'd need a
serious tank that wouldn't colapse, using an old refrigeration
compressor would pull off the alcohol at room or very slightly
elevated temperature.

it would work to have pretty small batches for this step and leave it
run all the time.

Just an idea, worth what you paid for it.

Karl

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com on Fri, 24 Aug
2012 18:12:12 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
pyotr filipivich fired this volley in
:

If you are getting methanol in your product, something else
is wrong.


The primary "rough" content in a first-pass distillation from ordinary
grain mashes is furfurals. They taste bad, are moderately toxic, and
cause one banger of a hangover, even in tiny concentrations. There are
also some undesirable acetates and oils present in the first pass.

There is not normally any significant methanol content unless the
"still" is hot enough to destructively distill... not likely if there's
still any water left in the mash.

Hmm, things to remember, which wasn't covered in diddly squat
class.*

tschus
pyotr

*cf a conversation where I was chastised for making her feel like she
didn't know diddly squat. And then a moment or two later I said
"Okay, this is something I learned in diddly squat class."

--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

"Pete C." on Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:23:44 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

pyotr filipivich wrote:

"azotic" on Fri, 24 Aug 2012 06:24:46 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"Ignoramus11822" wrote in message
m...
On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is
better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are
supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

The fuel is bound to be very expensive.

i

Would you have to pay Motor fuel tax?
Does the BATF regulate home stills?

Yes. You can make beer and wine, but not distilled spirits.
Another weird law.

And yes, fuel is "expensive" - you are basically boiling a lot of
water in order to get the ethanol to evaporate out of it.

That end of things at least could be improved by either using a
concentrating solar collector to provide the heat or a co-gen type setup
heating the cabin in the winter or whatever.

Yep.

Or use the heat from the still to heat the house.

Geothermal solar powered still? .... not so sure.


pyotr


--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...


"RogerN" on Fri, 24 Aug 2012 05:57:14 -0500 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
snip
This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

Where is the methanol coming from? Sugar & yeast produce lots of
fat yeast critters, all ****ing ethanol till they get too drunk to
continue. If you are getting methanol in your product, something else
is wrong.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

I wondered the same thing, seems most of the moonshine distilling info I
read tells people to throw the first bit of the batch out, they said it
would have the methanol (maybe if there was any, just to be on the safe
side?). I thought maybe if you made mash with grains and they got burnt or
something it might make a trace of methanol, but I'm not sure where it could
come from in a sugar/water mix. From what I have read, it seems like the
other nasties left by the yeast need to be filtered by putting activated
charcoal in a tube and filtering the alcohol through it. I'm not sure how
that works with moonshine though, where some flavor comes from the grain
mash.

RogerN

On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 21:40:27 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
.. .


"RogerN" on Fri, 24 Aug 2012 05:57:14 -0500 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
snip
This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

Where is the methanol coming from? Sugar & yeast produce lots of
fat yeast critters, all ****ing ethanol till they get too drunk to
continue. If you are getting methanol in your product, something else
is wrong.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

I wondered the same thing, seems most of the moonshine distilling info I
read tells people to throw the first bit of the batch out, they said it
would have the methanol (maybe if there was any, just to be on the safe
side?). I thought maybe if you made mash with grains and they got burnt or
something it might make a trace of methanol, but I'm not sure where it could
come from in a sugar/water mix. From what I have read, it seems like the
other nasties left by the yeast need to be filtered by putting activated
charcoal in a tube and filtering the alcohol through it. I'm not sure how
that works with moonshine though, where some flavor comes from the grain
mash.

RogerN


I think that most of the amateur booze makers are using reflux stills
and turning out nearly pure alcohol. Then they cut it back with
distilled water and flavor it. Most of the shops selling supplies seem
to stock the flavors so I assume that is the preferred method, rather
then using a pot still and retaining the flavor from the mash as the
scotch whiskey makers do.

In article ,
"RogerN" wrote:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...


"RogerN" on Fri, 24 Aug 2012 05:57:14 -0500 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
snip
This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

Where is the methanol coming from? Sugar & yeast produce lots of
fat yeast critters, all ****ing ethanol till they get too drunk to
continue. If you are getting methanol in your product, something else
is wrong.

The yeast generate the methanol all by themselves. Likewise the fusel
alcohols.


I wondered the same thing, seems most of the moonshine distilling info I
read tells people to throw the first bit of the batch out, they said it
would have the methanol (maybe if there was any, just to be on the safe
side?). I thought maybe if you made mash with grains and they got burnt or
something it might make a trace of methanol, but I'm not sure where it could
come from in a sugar/water mix. From what I have read, it seems like the
other nasties left by the yeast need to be filtered by putting activated
charcoal in a tube and filtering the alcohol through it. I'm not sure how
that works with moonshine though, where some flavor comes from the grain
mash.

Throwing the first and last thirds away, and keeping the middle third,
is the secret of distillation discovered by the alchemists.

The first third is the methyl alcohol.

The middle third is the ethyl alcohol.

The last third contains the fusel alcohols.

http://www.copper-alembic.com/distillation_history.php

Joe Gwinn

"azotic" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus11822" wrote in message
...
On 2012-08-24, RogerN wrote:

How do you intend to use the alcohol? As fuel or for drinking, or
what?

This would be for fuel. From my understanding the batch process is
better
for drinking because methanol would be boiled off first. You are
supposed
to be able to take the alcohol from the continuous process and run it
through a pot still to boil off the methanol first and get the ethanol.

The fuel is bound to be very expensive.

i

Would you have to pay Motor fuel tax?
Does the BATF regulate home stills?

Best Regards
Tom.
--
http://fija.org/

A federal license is required, and the resulting alcohol must be denatured.
Sadly, it is very difficult to achieve pure alcohol---never by distilling
alone.

Harold

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

snip

Would you have to pay Motor fuel tax?
Does the BATF regulate home stills?

Best Regards
Tom.
--
http://fija.org/

A federal license is required, and the resulting alcohol must be denatured.
Sadly, it is very difficult to achieve pure alcohol---never by distilling
alone.

Harold

Related info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification
http://www.pcj.com/e10/pdf/THE%20PRO...0MOLECULAR.pdf

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
...
Related info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification
http://www.pcj.com/e10/pdf/THE%20PRO...0MOLECULAR.pdf

RogerN

More electric heat required. When you approach 1:1 efficiency in
converting electricity into ethanol you might as well buy an electric
vehicle.

jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...

"RogerN" wrote in message
om...
...
Related info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification
http://www.pcj.com/e10/pdf/THE%20PRO...0MOLECULAR.pdf

RogerN

More electric heat required. When you approach 1:1 efficiency in converting
electricity into ethanol you might as well buy an electric vehicle.

jsw

I'm not as concerned about 1:1 efficiency, just mostly about the cost to
drive a mile. Charging a battery from house power isn't very efficient but
it may be cheaper than gasoline. If I can't make ethanol with a cost per
gallon , including electricity, close to half the price of gasoline, then it
probably won't be worth messing with. But, even if it's not worth making
for motor vehicle fuel I wouldn't mind making for a $20 / gallon denatured
alcohol replacement. But I don't want to have to go through much paperwork
to make a couple of gallons of ethanol per year...

RogerN

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 15:00:13 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...

"RogerN" wrote in message
news:cdWdnZr6QeLf16fNnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d@earthlink. com...
...
Related info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification
http://www.pcj.com/e10/pdf/THE%20PRO...0MOLECULAR.pdf

RogerN

More electric heat required. When you approach 1:1 efficiency in converting
electricity into ethanol you might as well buy an electric vehicle.

jsw

I'm not as concerned about 1:1 efficiency, just mostly about the cost to
drive a mile. Charging a battery from house power isn't very efficient but
it may be cheaper than gasoline. If I can't make ethanol with a cost per
gallon , including electricity, close to half the price of gasoline, then it
probably won't be worth messing with. But, even if it's not worth making
for motor vehicle fuel I wouldn't mind making for a $20 / gallon denatured
alcohol replacement. But I don't want to have to go through much paperwork
to make a couple of gallons of ethanol per year...

RogerN


It may be more cost effective in the short run...but how much will
that battery pack cost you to replace? How much will an engine cost
to replace? A significant difference.

One can pick up a Ranger engine 3.0 for example..with less than 100k
on the clock for $600

What will the costs per 100k miles be for battery replacement?

One might buy a single round of ammunition for $0.15. A big ball
bearing for the sling shot, for .10. Which one is cheaper?

Dont forget the basic price of the delivery system..sling shot vrs
gun, how much the gun is going to cost you per 500 rds wear and
tear/maintainence versus the slingshots cost per 500 rds.
Remember..those rubber bands get replaced pretty often...etc etc

The slingshot may be the more expensive item over time.

The sticker price is not always indicative of the total cost of
owning/using something. Which is why owning a washing machine costs
far more today then it did 25 yrs ago, even with the prices adjusted
for inflation. They are built like crap and need far more repair than
did the old ones.

Which is why Harbor Freight is so popular. The tools may not be
SnapOn..but initial cost of ownership is far far cheaper, and if they
break, you simply go to the store and exhange it this afternoon. Lots
of SnapOn trucks in your AO? On Sunday?

Yes..SnapOn may be "better"...but that is based on a lot of things not
usually considered by a homeowner

Gunner

One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not
agree that "violence begets violence." I told him that it is my
earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure
- and in some cases I have - that any man who offers violence to his
fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.

- Jeff Cooper

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...

I'm not as concerned about 1:1 efficiency, just mostly about the
cost to drive a mile. Charging a battery from house power isn't
very efficient but it may be cheaper than gasoline. If I can't make
ethanol with a cost per gallon , including electricity, close to
half the price of gasoline, then it probably won't be worth messing
with. But, even if it's not worth making for motor vehicle fuel I
wouldn't mind making for a $20 / gallon denatured alcohol
replacement. But I don't want to have to go through much paperwork
to make a couple of gallons of ethanol per year...

RogerN

Did you see the link to the form that I posted?

The experimental EV I worked on recharges from a 120V outlet
overnight. IIRC the charger was at least 80% efficient.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EN-V

I understand that getting the last one percent or so of the water, etc., out
of the ethanol is a fairly complex process. That alone, might make a
home-sized project non-productive.

I like your take on the plc approach, though. I am new to Arduino as a
microprocessor, and I can see that a lot of folks use them for automating
beer production.

Pete Stanaitis
---------------

---------------------------

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
Been looking a little at ethanol production

"Pete S" wrote in message
.. .

I understand that getting the last one percent or so of the water, etc.,
out of the ethanol is a fairly complex process. That alone, might make a
home-sized project non-productive.

I doubt that the alcohol has to have the last 1% water out since they use
alcohol to remove water from gas tanks (Heet). From what I've read, size 3A
zeolite molecular sieve will absorb water but not alcohol. And you can dry
and reuse the zeolite.

I like your take on the plc approach, though. I am new to Arduino as a
microprocessor, and I can see that a lot of folks use them for automating
beer production.

Pete Stanaitis
---------------

I have 3 Arduino boards, they would be a good controller for such a project.
The handy thing about the PLC is I have modules for I/O for discrete and
analog + temperature sensing & load cells, also have a couple of touch
screen HMI panels. After finding out what works for controls on the PLC, it
would be nice to convert to an Arduino, my industrial PLC's are rather
bulky, my control cabinet might be bigger than the still.

RogerN

Roger, it is a great project, keep us posted.

A lot of stuff in one, thermodynamics, electrics, control, chemistry
etc.

I had a moonshine still a long time ago when I was 15 or 16, maybe I
should make another.

i

On 2012-08-28, RogerN wrote:
"Pete S" wrote in message
.. .

I understand that getting the last one percent or so of the water, etc.,
out of the ethanol is a fairly complex process. That alone, might make a
home-sized project non-productive.

I doubt that the alcohol has to have the last 1% water out since they use
alcohol to remove water from gas tanks (Heet). From what I've read, size 3A
zeolite molecular sieve will absorb water but not alcohol. And you can dry
and reuse the zeolite.

I like your take on the plc approach, though. I am new to Arduino as a
microprocessor, and I can see that a lot of folks use them for automating
beer production.

Pete Stanaitis
---------------

I have 3 Arduino boards, they would be a good controller for such a project.
The handy thing about the PLC is I have modules for I/O for discrete and
analog + temperature sensing & load cells, also have a couple of touch
screen HMI panels. After finding out what works for controls on the PLC, it
would be nice to convert to an Arduino, my industrial PLC's are rather
bulky, my control cabinet might be bigger than the still.

RogerN

On 08/24/2012 03:55 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Yes. You can make beer and wine, but not distilled spirits.
Another weird law.

You were not allowed to make either until the 1978 homebrewing law
relaxed Federal prohibition against homebrewing. Prohibition against
distilled spirits was not addressed in that law.

Jon