Previous subject got me to thinking on my project that there were some
old ones in the barn that might serve current purpose w/ less effort
altho it's been some entertainment on hot afternoons searching...

So, one of the candidates is a _very_ old Klockner Moeller DIL 3/53.
Just talked w/ a rep from an outfit doing support parts, etc., for the
old line prior to Eaton buying them out and even they don't go back this
far...

Tag is faded beyond reading fully so question is -- anybody here know of
anywhere there might possibly be archive of old schematics/info?

My initial searches have turned up nothing of this old a vintage. I can
eventually ring it out and smoke test to affirm coil operating voltages,
etc., it would just be somewhat quicker if had a connection diagram...

Also have an old Furnas contactor that needs some contact kits -- I've
found some but they're very pricey. A set of four Furnas 75EA14 contact
kits or a L-17522 cross arm assembly would put it back to pristine but
at $60/pole it doesn't seem worth it...

Many other various parts/pieces...not enough of any of one thing to do
much w/ it appears (as is usual for the old parts bin I've noticed ).

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Previous subject got me to thinking on my project that there were some old
ones in the barn that might serve current purpose w/ less effort altho
it's been some entertainment on hot afternoons searching...

So, one of the candidates is a _very_ old Klockner Moeller DIL 3/53. Just
talked w/ a rep from an outfit doing support parts, etc., for the old line
prior to Eaton buying them out and even they don't go back this far...

Tag is faded beyond reading fully so question is -- anybody here know of
anywhere there might possibly be archive of old schematics/info?

My initial searches have turned up nothing of this old a vintage. I can
eventually ring it out and smoke test to affirm coil operating voltages,
etc., it would just be somewhat quicker if had a connection diagram...

Also have an old Furnas contactor that needs some contact kits -- I've
found some but they're very pricey. A set of four Furnas 75EA14 contact
kits or a L-17522 cross arm assembly would put it back to pristine but at
$60/pole it doesn't seem worth it...

Holy ****, sounds like Kalamazoo, with their $900 cutoff switches for their
horizontal bandsaws....
Even the guy on the phone was speechless....


Many other various parts/pieces...not enough of any of one thing to do
much w/ it appears (as is usual for the old parts bin I've noticed ).

You could proly make contact, no? c-bore some copper for the mounting
screw?

I've made decent bussbar out of copper plumbing pipe, hammer it flat. Not
electrical grade copper, but surely a whole lot better than aluminum!!
--
EA





--

On 8/16/2012 1:10 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
....

You could proly make contact, no? c-bore some copper for the mounting
screw?

I've made decent bussbar out of copper plumbing pipe, hammer it flat. Not
electrical grade copper, but surely a whole lot better than aluminum!!

Switching contacts for inductive loads are a whole different animal than
static conduction. (Which is why I've cautioned you on just switches if
your motor controllers are on anything of any size...)

The contact material is bonded to a copper substrate--typical relatively
small motor contacts like these are a Ag/Cd amalgam--I think these are
10% Cd.

The one really bad one has lost the contact substrate off the functional
backing plate entirely. The others were fairly deeply pitted but able
to clean them up reasonably well they'll last quite a while.

For this starter there are actually four contacts designed in parallel
for larger single-phase motors that are are demanding because the single
phase means higher currents. For a smaller motor could easily just use
two and even have a spare...which is likely what I'd do if were to put
this one into service somewhere.

Way back when, being limited to single-phase on the farm had a couple of
sizable old motors that ran the elevator leg (12.5 hp which I've not
seen a single phase that large even available any longer--it is about
3-ft in diameter and must weigh 500-lb if an ounce, now mean feat
hoisting it to the top of the elevator and getting enough structure to
hold it up) and a large hammer mill for grinding grain for feed (7.5 hp
iirc). Now one would go to phase converters but that wasn't such an
option in those way-back days shortly after REA did finally arrive.
That has been a while now but was recently enough I do remember before
anything but the old Delco 32 VDC WindCharger system for lights in the
house and a few applicances and the barest of bulbs in barn.

Interestingly enough, in rural Saskatchewan when was doing coal
analyzers eng'g support in a previous life the Co-op stores in Weyburn
and other regional rural shopping centers still had those appliances on
the showroom floor...that's not been but about 20 yr now and I suspect
they're still there now.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 8/16/2012 1:10 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
...

You could proly make contact, no? c-bore some copper for the mounting
screw?

I've made decent bussbar out of copper plumbing pipe, hammer it flat.
Not
electrical grade copper, but surely a whole lot better than aluminum!!

Switching contacts for inductive loads are a whole different animal than
static conduction. (Which is why I've cautioned you on just switches if
your motor controllers are on anything of any size...)

The contact material is bonded to a copper substrate--typical relatively
small motor contacts like these are a Ag/Cd amalgam--I think these are 10%
Cd.

The one really bad one has lost the contact substrate off the functional
backing plate entirely. The others were fairly deeply pitted but able to
clean them up reasonably well they'll last quite a while.

For this starter there are actually four contacts designed in parallel for
larger single-phase motors that are are demanding because the single phase
means higher currents. For a smaller motor could easily just use two and
even have a spare...which is likely what I'd do if were to put this one
into service somewhere.

Way back when, being limited to single-phase on the farm had a couple of
sizable old motors that ran the elevator leg (12.5 hp which I've not seen
a single phase that large even available any longer--it is about 3-ft in
diameter and must weigh 500-lb if an ounce, now mean feat hoisting it to
the top of the elevator and getting enough structure to hold it up) and a
large hammer mill for grinding grain for feed (7.5 hp iirc). Now one
would go to phase converters but that wasn't such an option in those
way-back days shortly after REA did finally arrive. That has been a while
now but was recently enough I do remember before anything but the old
Delco 32 VDC WindCharger system for lights in the house and a few
applicances and the barest of bulbs in barn.

Interestingly enough, in rural Saskatchewan when was doing coal analyzers
eng'g support in a previous life the Co-op stores in Weyburn and other
regional rural shopping centers still had those appliances on the showroom
floor...that's not been but about 20 yr now and I suspect they're still
there now.

You know, they make relatively high current solid state relays now, with
"coils" that operate at ANY voltage from proly below 120 to over 220-240.
No more contacts!
Some fuses, breakers, heaters, whatever in series, and wala, motor starter!
with mebbe a li'l latching/cutout relay in series with the coil -- which
could actually be just another solid state relay, with the coil powered by
the contacts, instead of the line.

HVAC houses carry these, and I'm sure many other places do, at much lower
prices than these ripoff hvac suppliers.
--
EA


--

On 8/16/2012 4:50 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
....

You know, they make relatively high current solid state relays now, with
"coils" that operate at ANY voltage from proly below 120 to over 220-240.
No more contacts!
Some fuses, breakers, heaters, whatever in series, and wala, motor starter!
with mebbe a li'l latching/cutout relay in series with the coil -- which
could actually be just another solid state relay, with the coil powered by
the contacts, instead of the line.

Indeed, I've done some looking into that -- there's some fairly
important engineering to be done that I've not opted to take on,
particularly as long as I've got old pieces-parts to scrounge up for
play-toy applications. If it comes to real gear for actual farm
revenue-generation, then all rules change, of course.

The section I've read on general principles in selecting SSRs for motor
applications says in part--

MOTORS: Motors frequently have severe inrush
currents during starting and can impose unusual
voltages during turnoff. The inrush currents
connected to mechanical loads having high starting
torque or inertia should be carefully determined to verify
that they are within the surge capabilities of the SSR.
A current shunt and oscilloscope should be used to
examine the duration of the inrush current. Motor
starting may frequently reoccur at short intervals and
the affect of repetitive inrush currents on the thermal
operating point of an SSR must be considered. Check
the motor operating current and locked rotor current
versus the SSR motor rating. The possibility of
abnormally stalled rotor conditions which draw much
higher than normal currents should be considered. An
extended stalled rotor condition may require an
oversized SSR or fuse protection. The generated EMF
of certain motors can require an SSR to have a blocking
voltage greater than might be expected from steady
state line voltage. The voltage applied to an SSR by
a motor circuit during turnoff should be examined with
an oscilloscope to verify hat the applied voltages are
safely below the specified SSR blocking voltages.
Otherwise lock-on or erratic turnoff of the motor may
occur. Some motor circuits may require higher than
normal blocking voltage, transient limiting devices, or
other techniques to control the voltage which must be
blocked by an SSR during deceleration or direction
reversal.

All in all, it says you don't just look at a (say) 10 hp motor drawing a
nominal 50A and just buy a 50A SSR and go on assuming everything is just
hunky-dory...

HVAC houses carry these, and I'm sure many other places do, at much lower
prices than these ripoff hvac suppliers.

Any specific parts you know of firsthand for a given/known motor for
comparison purposes? For 240V need either two or a 3P integrated even
though only need two of the three for load. Perhaps there are some but
I've not seen any w/ the auxiliary control contact(s) needed for a
starter circuit so that's another or (I presume) w/ the 3P you could use
the third load contact assuming it'll switch the small coil load
satisfactorily.

The Newark catalog ones of minimal size (10A that I'm sure don't meet
any of the above-discussed conditions for even a 1 hp motor what more 2
or 3 or 5) are about $25 for a single pole. The hp-rated by
manufacturer 2-pole 40A mechanicals were $8+/ea so that seems a
no-brainer on cost. They require another $8 or so control relay but
still that's pretty inexpensive comparably.

But, I'm still open for going forward at some point...

BTW, I got the old Moeller starter going this afternoon! No smoke
was harmed in the connecting...I did have to clean up a bunch of
terminals to get a good connection thru the start circuit but I'm about
ready to put it on the DC. If I can figure out a way to squeeze the
motor start capacitor that's in the present switchbox, I could replace
it entirely and eliminate the piggyback power feed...there's _almost_
enough room; I'm going to see if I can manage to make just enough more
by a rearrangement or removal of the third pole power feed that don't
need for the purpose. That would "neaten up" things significantly...

--

On 8/16/2012 4:50 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
....

HVAC houses carry these, and I'm sure many other places do, at much lower
prices than these ripoff hvac suppliers.

Well, the HVAC reference got me to searching w/ that and variants as
keyword --

So far, I've found some from TEMCO that are 3PH/AC up to 40A (iirc) at
about $25-$35/ea and one 70A. _BUT_, it appears they also need
heatsinks and very good motor protection because their LRA tolerance is
_very_ short (like 10s of msecs).

Found some SS motor controllers of course but they're $hundreds complete
so don't see (yet anyways) there's any great simple savings to be had...

Still, if you do have a specific part for a given app and have any info
on what is in one of these applications besides just the SSR I'd be
interested in seeing it. I'm thinking probably there, too, the aux gear
in the field is significant. For low level stuff we used them all the
time in data collection, etc., and for that I'll agree they're the cat's
meow over mechanical...

--

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 08:46:46 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/16/2012 4:50 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
...

HVAC houses carry these, and I'm sure many other places do, at much lower
prices than these ripoff hvac suppliers.

Well, the HVAC reference got me to searching w/ that and variants as
keyword --

So far, I've found some from TEMCO that are 3PH/AC up to 40A (iirc) at
about $25-$35/ea and one 70A. _BUT_, it appears they also need
heatsinks and very good motor protection because their LRA tolerance is
_very_ short (like 10s of msecs).

Found some SS motor controllers of course but they're $hundreds complete
so don't see (yet anyways) there's any great simple savings to be had...

Still, if you do have a specific part for a given app and have any info
on what is in one of these applications besides just the SSR I'd be
interested in seeing it. I'm thinking probably there, too, the aux gear
in the field is significant. For low level stuff we used them all the
time in data collection, etc., and for that I'll agree they're the cat's
meow over mechanical...

I think you've pretty well covered it, but I'd add one more warning:
SSRs' failure mode. They quite often fail on. I've used many SSRs in
automation controls to power devices like single-phase sub-fractional
HP motors that don't pose a safety hazard.

SSRs are common in place of the once-standard mercury relays in heater
control circuits. But, depending on the danger posed by a full-on
heater, redundancy is good practice.

This page covers the issues to consider with SSRs. The overview page
gives an idea what's required for heat sinks to utilize the full
capacity of an SSR. If you're putting them in an enclosure you also
need to figure the heat dissipated.
http://www.hbcontrols.com/ssr-contro...-technical.asp
http://www.hbcontrols.com/

Re the cost, I bet a 3-phase SSR with proper heat sink as a motor
control would be more expensive than a VFD. In fact, the price
difference between a mechanical motor starter and a VFD is not that
great these days. I'm working on design right now that has 10 motors
totalling about 40HP. We decided the other day not to bother with
starters for any of them -- VFDs all the way thru.

BTW, a good value for contactors and overloads are the Fujis from
Automation Direct.

--
Ned Simmons

On 8/18/2012 11:09 AM, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 08:46:46 -0500, wrote:
....
So far, I've found some from TEMCO that are 3PH/AC up to 40A (iirc) at
about $25-$35/ea and one 70A. _BUT_, it appears they also need
heatsinks and very good motor protection because their LRA tolerance is
_very_ short (like 10s of msecs).

Found some SS motor controllers of course but they're $hundreds complete
so don't see (yet anyways) there's any great simple savings to be had...

....
... For low level stuff we used them all the
time in data collection, etc., and for that I'll agree they're the cat's
meow over mechanical...

I think you've pretty well covered it, but I'd add one more warning:
SSRs' failure mode. They quite often fail on. I've used many SSRs in
automation controls to power devices like single-phase sub-fractional
HP motors that don't pose a safety hazard.

SSRs are common in place of the once-standard mercury relays in heater
control circuits. But, depending on the danger posed by a full-on
heater, redundancy is good practice.
....

Good point--the applications I'm familiar with are all just control
(Opto-22, mostly) and no loading to speak of so the thermal problem is
nonexistant. If one has to design in the redundancy that certainly
pretty much defeats the whole point to begin with as well as definitely
going to up the price point...

BTW, a good value for contactors and overloads are the Fujis from
Automation Direct.

OK, thanks; I'll keep them in mind. At present there's nothing new
going on that's "for real"; this is as much entertainment w/ an end
objective of adding the convenience of a remote control station to the
DC in the woodshop. Since I have bunches of old stuff laying around I
can rig up pieces and put them together...I've got this one working w/
the exception of rearranging the couple of connections to add the remote
pushbutton and waiting for the paint on the covers to dry to make it
look a little prettier in its new life. I've also refurbished/cleaned
up several others of various sizes and configurations and figured out
what parts were in the piles of stuff for the most part...who knows when
will dream up a use for some of it? At least half the fun is in simply
being able to reuse the stuff.


--