I must make a very smooth, cosmetically impeccible brass tube that tapers
uniformly from 1" i.d. to 5/8" i.d. over a length of about 16". Lack of a
visible seam would be a plus.

It must be bent in three non-planar curves, none exceeding 45 degrees of
bend.

Anybody got any favorite methods?

Thanks,
Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I must make a very smooth, cosmetically impeccible brass tube that
tapers
uniformly from 1" i.d. to 5/8" i.d. over a length of about 16".
Lack of a
visible seam would be a plus.

It must be bent in three non-planar curves, none exceeding 45
degrees of
bend.

Anybody got any favorite methods?

Thanks,
Lloyd

Someone who made and repaired brass musical instruments used to post
here.

http://www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com/

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:juv7v4$cfi$1
@dont-email.me:

Someone who made and repaired brass musical instruments used to post
here.

http://www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com/

Yeah, that's probably my best bet. I've read all the stuff about making
brass instruments, and it requires tooling I just can't afford the time to
make for a two-off project.

LLoyd

On 7/27/2012 6:35 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Jim fired this volley in news:juv7v4$cfi$1
@dont-email.me:

Someone who made and repaired brass musical instruments used to post
here.

http://www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com/

Yeah, that's probably my best bet. I've read all the stuff about making
brass instruments, and it requires tooling I just can't afford the time to
make for a two-off project.

LLoyd


This ought to be interesting.

What are you making, Lloyd?

Richard fired this volley in
m:

What are you making, Lloyd?

A delivery chute for small paper tubes exiting a collating feeder. It
could be more crudely constructed; say, a channel instead of a tube. But
the machine is Sooooo pretty, I want the chute to look - well - "polished".

Lloyd

On 7/27/2012 7:27 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
fired this volley in
m:

What are you making, Lloyd?

A delivery chute for small paper tubes exiting a collating feeder. It
could be more crudely constructed; say, a channel instead of a tube. But
the machine is Sooooo pretty, I want the chute to look - well - "polished".

Lloyd


Sounds like a job for fiberglass guy!

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

Richard fired this volley in
m:

What are you making, Lloyd?

A delivery chute for small paper tubes exiting a collating feeder. It
could be more crudely constructed; say, a channel instead of a tube. But
the machine is Sooooo pretty, I want the chute to look - well - "polished".




Your secret is out. You're into Steampunk! ;-)

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
news:juv7v4$cfi$1
@dont-email.me:

Someone who made and repaired brass musical instruments used to
post
here.

http://www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com/

Yeah, that's probably my best bet. I've read all the stuff about
making
brass instruments, and it requires tooling I just can't afford the
time to
make for a two-off project.

LLoyd

The Chicago Symphony playing Mahler's 7th is on the other monitor. I'm
SOOO glad I wasn't the metalworker who was asked to make the first
French horn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_(instrument)

jsw

On 7/27/2012 7:31 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Jim fired this volley in
news:juv7v4$cfi$1
@dont-email.me:

Someone who made and repaired brass musical instruments used to
post
here.

http://www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com/

Yeah, that's probably my best bet. I've read all the stuff about
making
brass instruments, and it requires tooling I just can't afford the
time to
make for a two-off project.

LLoyd

The Chicago Symphony playing Mahler's 7th is on the other monitor. I'm
SOOO glad I wasn't the metalworker who was asked to make the first
French horn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_(instrument)

jsw



Here is a Youtube video for "How It's Mad" making a trumpet.

Mandrels for almost everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh7RrlazaRc

Richard wrote:
On 7/27/2012 7:31 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Jim fired this volley in
news:juv7v4$cfi$1
@dont-email.me:

Someone who made and repaired brass musical instruments used to
post
here.

http://www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com/

Yeah, that's probably my best bet. I've read all the stuff about
making
brass instruments, and it requires tooling I just can't afford the
time to
make for a two-off project.

LLoyd

The Chicago Symphony playing Mahler's 7th is on the other monitor. I'm
SOOO glad I wasn't the metalworker who was asked to make the first
French horn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_(instrument)

jsw



Here is a Youtube video for "How It's Mad" making a trumpet.

Mandrels for almost everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh7RrlazaRc
As long as you know how to sodder.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I must make a very smooth, cosmetically impeccible brass tube that tapers
uniformly from 1" i.d. to 5/8" i.d. over a length of about 16". Lack of a
visible seam would be a plus.

It must be bent in three non-planar curves, none exceeding 45 degrees of
bend.

Anybody got any favorite methods?

Thanks,
Lloyd

Never tried this, but it sounds lie a job for metal spinning. Make a mandrel
with the proper taper on a live lathe tailpiece and feed it into the brass
tube on the chuck. Use spinning tools to work the tube down to the mandrel.

The bending could be done afterwards with a jig and sand filling the tube to
prevent kinking.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. -- Mark Twain

On Jul 27, 8:40*pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote:

Never tried this, but it sounds lie a job for metal spinning. Make a mandrel
with the proper taper on a live lathe tailpiece and feed it into the brass
tube on the chuck. Use spinning tools to work the tube down to the mandrel.

The bending could be done afterwards with a jig and sand filling the tube to
prevent kinking.

--
Paul Hovnanian * *
------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. -- Mark Twain

Sounds like a plan. I would try bending using something like a padded
conduit hickey with the tube filled with sand or lead.

Dan

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
I must make a very smooth, cosmetically impeccible brass tube that tapers
uniformly from 1" i.d. to 5/8" i.d. over a length of about 16". Lack of a
visible seam would be a plus.

It must be bent in three non-planar curves, none exceeding 45 degrees of
bend.

Anybody got any favorite methods?

Thanks,
Lloyd

Does it have to be brass?

If you could use steel instead you could hydro-form it a bit easier,
just like the pipes on a 2 stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_Z3AIFSd60


You might be able to do that with brass, but I'm not sure you could hide
the seam as well. How about making the seams a decorative item? Form the
two halves, then trim the flanges down, and silver solder a decorative
strip down them?

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." fired this volley in news:juvdh6$72e$1
@dont-email.me:

If you could use steel instead you could hydro-form it a bit easier,
just like the pipes on a 2 stroke.

Well, if I were willing to make the mold to make it look pretty enough
(that pipe they made was UGLY), I would explosively form it, rather than
hydro-forming.

This is going to be a "no special tools" job -- Monday.

Lloyd

Does the taper need to be full length? If not, scrounge a male and female
of whatever Morse taper (or whatever taper you can find) covers your ID
range and use it as a swaging punch and die on the inlet end of your tube to
make a taper 3-6" long (annealing as needed), then like others said pack
with sand and bend.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
. 3.70...

"Steve W." fired this volley in news:juvdh6$72e$1
@dont-email.me:

If you could use steel instead you could hydro-form it a bit easier,
just like the pipes on a 2 stroke.

Well, if I were willing to make the mold to make it look pretty enough
(that pipe they made was UGLY), I would explosively form it, rather than
hydro-forming.

This is going to be a "no special tools" job -- Monday.

Lloyd

"Carl Ijames" fired this volley in
:

Does the taper need to be full length? If not, scrounge a male and
female of whatever Morse taper

Actually, probably not, but it would look "sexier" if it was. I'll keep
that idea in reserve.

LLoyd

On 7/27/2012 7:59 PM, Steve W. wrote:
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
I must make a very smooth, cosmetically impeccible brass tube that
tapers uniformly from 1" i.d. to 5/8" i.d. over a length of about 16".
Lack of a visible seam would be a plus.

It must be bent in three non-planar curves, none exceeding 45 degrees
of bend.

Anybody got any favorite methods?

Thanks,
Lloyd

Does it have to be brass?

If you could use steel instead you could hydro-form it a bit easier,
just like the pipes on a 2 stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_Z3AIFSd60


You might be able to do that with brass, but I'm not sure you could hide
the seam as well. How about making the seams a decorative item? Form the
two halves, then trim the flanges down, and silver solder a decorative
strip down them?


The trumpet guy used ice as the filler when he bent the tube.

Ice isn't really a special tool is it?

How big is this thing, Lloyd?

Richard fired this volley in
m:

The trumpet guy used ice as the filler when he bent the tube.

Ice isn't really a special tool is it?

How big is this thing, Lloyd?

Bending isn't the issue. I have a bender that can be pressed into use for
this purpose.

The issue is all the mandrels, seam rollers, and other smoothing devices
necessary to get the tube 'clean' before bending.

I saw somewhere that the material in the tube during bending is NOT just
water-ice, but a mixture that freezes hard (like would, say, ice cream),
but does not form a brittle crystal like water-ice does.

I'll have to look that up before Monday.

The tube is 1" i.d. at the mouth, and 5/8" i.d. at the small end, over
16", with three sub-45-degree non-planar bends.

It's an _almost_ trivial project, except that I want it to look sexy and
slick, because the rest of the machine is beginning to approach 'steam
punk pretty', and I don't want to add ugly parts to it.

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

It's an _almost_ trivial project, except that I want it to look sexy and
slick, because the rest of the machine is beginning to approach 'steam
punk pretty', and I don't want to add ugly parts to it.



Post plenty of pictures after it's all polished up.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message

It's an _almost_ trivial project, except that I want it to look sexy
and
slick, because the rest of the machine is beginning to approach
'steam
punk pretty', and I don't want to add ugly parts to it.

Lloyd

Three or four parallel seams might not look as out of place as a
single one, and have less effect on bending.

jsw

On 7/28/2012 09:49, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Richard fired this volley in
m:

The trumpet guy used ice as the filler when he bent the tube.

Ice isn't really a special tool is it?

How big is this thing, Lloyd?

Bending isn't the issue. I have a bender that can be pressed into use for
this purpose.

The issue is all the mandrels, seam rollers, and other smoothing devices
necessary to get the tube 'clean' before bending.

I saw somewhere that the material in the tube during bending is NOT just
water-ice, but a mixture that freezes hard (like would, say, ice cream),
but does not form a brittle crystal like water-ice does.

I'll have to look that up before Monday.

The tube is 1" i.d. at the mouth, and 5/8" i.d. at the small end, over
16", with three sub-45-degree non-planar bends.

It's an _almost_ trivial project, except that I want it to look sexy and
slick, because the rest of the machine is beginning to approach 'steam
punk pretty', and I don't want to add ugly parts to it.

Lloyd




Damn. Thunderbird changed, and doesn't have reply to newsgroup. I'm
using followup to newsgroup.

Anyway, steam punk pretty?????

Sounds way cool.

Can we see some pictures when done?

--
Steve Walker
(remove brain when replying)

In article ,
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I must make a very smooth, cosmetically impeccible brass tube that tapers
uniformly from 1" i.d. to 5/8" i.d. over a length of about 16". Lack of a
visible seam would be a plus.

It must be bent in three non-planar curves, none exceeding 45 degrees of
bend.

Anybody got any favorite methods?

Thanks,
Lloyd

Talk to a brass musical wind instrument maker/repairer - trumpet, tuba,
trombone french horn... I don't claim to be one, or to know their
methods in any detail, but they certainly do that and more difficult
things.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 17:54:46 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I must make a very smooth, cosmetically impeccible brass tube that tapers
uniformly from 1" i.d. to 5/8" i.d. over a length of about 16". Lack of a
visible seam would be a plus.

It must be bent in three non-planar curves, none exceeding 45 degrees of
bend.

Anybody got any favorite methods?

Thanks,
Lloyd
==============
As a one off I would be thinking wax sculpture complete with
bends (or for precision use cad design and print out on a 3D
printer, possibly in sections), coating with something
conductive and then electroforming/plating desired material,
and then melting/evaporating the substrate out of the
complete form, i.e. "lost wax" This is a commercial
process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroforming
http://dalmar.net/electroforming.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXHspsHir-k

for some sources to start (there are many others) see
http://www.servometer.com/products/p...FYVgTAod2DQAgw
http://www.spgveco.com/precision+met...product_id=146
http://garelectroforming.com/

Good luck and let the group know how you make out!



--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

F. George McDuffee fired this volley in
:

As a one off I would be thinking wax sculpture complete with
bends (or for precision use cad design and print out on a 3D
printer, possibly in sections), coating with something
conductive and then electroforming/plating desired material,
and then melting/evaporating the substrate out of the
complete form, i.e. "lost wax" This is a commercial
process.

Yeah! I should be able to do that Monday! G

LLoyd
(yes, that would be great, if I had the time and the budget)

On 7/28/2012 10:13 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
F. George fired this volley in
:

As a one off I would be thinking wax sculpture complete with
bends (or for precision use cad design and print out on a 3D
printer, possibly in sections), coating with something
conductive and then electroforming/plating desired material,
and then melting/evaporating the substrate out of the
complete form, i.e. "lost wax" This is a commercial
process.

Yeah! I should be able to do that Monday!G

LLoyd
(yes, that would be great, if I had the time and the budget)


I had a thought about hte fiberglass/carbon idea, Lloyd.

Is there, or might there possibly be, a possible danger with static
electricity?

If so, metal would be better choice than any plastic, including a carbon
lay-up. The carbon fiber fabric would be encased in resin, which would
insulate the carbon fiber and possibly result in a static charge buildup
due to the paper sliding through the guide.

Metal work. Good stuff...

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
F. George McDuffee fired this volley in
:

As a one off I would be thinking wax sculpture complete with
bends (or for precision use cad design and print out on a 3D
printer, possibly in sections), coating with something
conductive and then electroforming/plating desired material,
and then melting/evaporating the substrate out of the
complete form, i.e. "lost wax" This is a commercial
process.

Yeah! I should be able to do that Monday! G

LLoyd
(yes, that would be great, if I had the time and the budget)

Geeze, you guys spend more time spitballing than it takes to do it.

LLoyd you have two problems. Bending is the easy one. The taper is something
else.
Because of its long length and small diameter it will be a bitch. I can
write a thousand words on how to do it with a tapered strip of brass, a
rawhide hammer and a beakhorn stake, but it will still be a bitch.

Rethink the taper. Make a short taper and attach it to a 5/8 straight brass
tube.
Myself I would saw the rim off of a .50 cal cartridge, silver braze a piece
of 5/8 brass tube over the neck and turn a fitting to attach the big end to
the 1" .

To bend, fill the tube with lead (first paint the interior with milk of
magnesia and let it dry, it will keep the lead from sticking). Use wooden
dies for your bender. Carve matching grooves in them. And be prepared to
bend more than one before you get it right.

Paul K. Dickman

"Paul K. Dickman" fired this volley in
:

Because of its long length and small diameter it will be a bitch. I can
write a thousand words on how to do it with a tapered strip of brass, a
rawhide hammer and a beakhorn stake, but it will still be a bitch.

I've made such tapered tubes before, Paul, and don't find them difficult
to do. There are a couple of tricks to make it lay around the mandrel or
stake well.

The issue was the finish -- I didn't want a standing seam, but also
needed the conductivity of the brass; and it's "slippery" nature.

The finish is now easily solved. Make the tube of brass, with just a lap
seam on what will end up being the top. After bending, lay up a cover
with carbon fabric tape and epoxy. It'll look nice, and be conductive
end-to-end.

Lloyd

On 7/28/2012 5:04 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Paul K. fired this volley in
:

Because of its long length and small diameter it will be a bitch. I can
write a thousand words on how to do it with a tapered strip of brass, a
rawhide hammer and a beakhorn stake, but it will still be a bitch.

I've made such tapered tubes before, Paul, and don't find them difficult
to do. There are a couple of tricks to make it lay around the mandrel or
stake well.

The issue was the finish -- I didn't want a standing seam, but also
needed the conductivity of the brass; and it's "slippery" nature.

The finish is now easily solved. Make the tube of brass, with just a lap
seam on what will end up being the top. After bending, lay up a cover
with carbon fabric tape and epoxy. It'll look nice, and be conductive
end-to-end.

Lloyd

Sounds like a pln, Lloyd.

Do you have any pictures of it finished yet???

On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:13:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

F. George McDuffee fired this volley in
:

As a one off I would be thinking wax sculpture complete with
bends (or for precision use cad design and print out on a 3D
printer, possibly in sections), coating with something
conductive and then electroforming/plating desired material,
and then melting/evaporating the substrate out of the
complete form, i.e. "lost wax" This is a commercial
process.

Yeah! I should be able to do that Monday! G

LLoyd
(yes, that would be great, if I had the time and the budget)
==============

good
fast
cheap
pick any two :-)


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com on Fri, 27 Jul
2012 17:54:46 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
I must make a very smooth, cosmetically impeccible brass tube that tapers
uniformly from 1" i.d. to 5/8" i.d. over a length of about 16". Lack of a
visible seam would be a plus.

It must be bent in three non-planar curves, none exceeding 45 degrees of
bend.

Anybody got any favorite methods?

Make a brass "funnel" ("first - catch a rabbit")

Fill it with sand and start wrapping it round a mandrel / post.
Ideally, one mid sized to the curve you want and the tube you have.

Polish up when done.


Alternately - send it out.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

On 7/27/2012 3:54 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
[...]

Sounds like you need to make an appointment with a urologist.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I must make a very smooth, cosmetically impeccible brass tube that tapers
uniformly from 1" i.d. to 5/8" i.d. over a length of about 16". Lack of a
visible seam would be a plus.

It must be bent in three non-planar curves, none exceeding 45 degrees of
bend.

Anybody got any favorite methods?

Thanks,
Lloyd

If it were me, I'd try to make a straight tube with no taper. And the above
is what I'd end up with. :-/

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're ridin' ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and
then to make sure it's still there.