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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
The other day, I needed to turn a shaft to 25mm diameter for a machine at work. Not a big
deal I thought. I only need a 7" shaft, I'm turning 12L14, this should be easy. The first problem I ran into is that the normal CMNG tool holder I use would not clear the live center (this is a big lathe). So I looked around, I found a tool holder of the trigonal type. It had a ceramic insert in it but I knew where we had a machine running a carbide trigonal insert and installed one of those. Well, I never got a decent finish, it was so bad you could ridges across the item I turned. I tried a different carbide insert and it wasn't any better. It got to the point that I used a bit of sand paper, pressing the shaft through a bearing to burnish it to get a shaft I could use. I tried playing with the feed, speed and tweeking the tool height. Nothing made a difference. I should have just turned a longer shaft using the CMNG tool holder that always worked and parted off the excess. Anyway, what was the likely issue? It did look like the trigon tool holder had a bit more inclination but I didn't measure it. Thanks, Wes -- I was a skeptic before I became a cynic. |
#2
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:48:20 -0500, Wes
wrote: The other day, I needed to turn a shaft to 25mm diameter for a machine at work. Not a big deal I thought. I only need a 7" shaft, I'm turning 12L14, this should be easy. The first problem I ran into is that the normal CMNG tool holder I use would not clear the live center (this is a big lathe). So I looked around, I found a tool holder of the trigonal type. It had a ceramic insert in it but I knew where we had a machine running a carbide trigonal insert and installed one of those. Well, I never got a decent finish, it was so bad you could ridges across the item I turned. I tried a different carbide insert and it wasn't any better. By "ridges across," you mean chatter-type? Or was your tool-nose radius too small for your feedrate? If it's chatter, you know what things can cause that. -- Ed Huntress It got to the point that I used a bit of sand paper, pressing the shaft through a bearing to burnish it to get a shaft I could use. I tried playing with the feed, speed and tweeking the tool height. Nothing made a difference. I should have just turned a longer shaft using the CMNG tool holder that always worked and parted off the excess. Anyway, what was the likely issue? It did look like the trigon tool holder had a bit more inclination but I didn't measure it. Thanks, Wes |
#3
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
Ed Huntress wrote:
Well, I never got a decent finish, it was so bad you could ridges across the item I turned. I tried a different carbide insert and it wasn't any better. By "ridges across," you mean chatter-type? Or was your tool-nose radius too small for your feedrate? I was within the nose radius. I tried 0.001 to 0.002 ipr. If it's chatter, you know what things can cause that. This is a very solid machine. 22" chuck, 4" dia quill in tail stock, uses 1" sq tool holders. This should have been cake. Wes |
#4
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:24:11 -0500, Wes
wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: Well, I never got a decent finish, it was so bad you could ridges across the item I turned. I tried a different carbide insert and it wasn't any better. By "ridges across," you mean chatter-type? Or was your tool-nose radius too small for your feedrate? I was within the nose radius. I tried 0.001 to 0.002 ipr. If it's chatter, you know what things can cause that. This is a very solid machine. 22" chuck, 4" dia quill in tail stock, uses 1" sq tool holders. This should have been cake. Wes Well, someone else may have more specific ideas, but when it's chatter, the short answer is that you have too much drag for the rigidity of the setup, or you've had the bad luck to hit the right frequencies for a sympathetic vibration. The former is much more likely. I think the thing to do is to start at the tool tip and work your way out from there. Tool nose sharpness? Rake angle? Relief? Too much of the tool in the cut? Insert clamp? You know the drill. Good luck. -- Ed Huntress |
#5
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
Ed Huntress fired this volley in
: The former is much more likely. I think the thing to do is to start at the tool tip and work your way out from there. Tool nose sharpness? Rake angle? Relief? Too much of the tool in the cut? Insert clamp? He's never identified it as chatter. If it's circumferential ridges spaced out along the work, instead of the common chatter herringbone, then it may be that there's some slop in the saddle gibs. Slight warp in the lead screw or longitudinal drive shaft can cause an eccentric action that, with a loose saddle, will cause a well-defined ridge a few tenths deep every revolution of the screw or shaft. LLoyd |
#6
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... Ed Huntress fired this volley in : The former is much more likely. I think the thing to do is to start at the tool tip and work your way out from there. Tool nose sharpness? Rake angle? Relief? Too much of the tool in the cut? Insert clamp? He's never identified it as chatter. If it's circumferential ridges spaced out along the work, instead of the common chatter herringbone, then it may be that there's some slop in the saddle gibs. Slight warp in the lead screw or longitudinal drive shaft can cause an eccentric action that, with a loose saddle, will cause a well-defined ridge a few tenths deep every revolution of the screw or shaft. To me sounds like maybe too slow of sfm--in which case taking too light of a finish cut will only worsen the problem. |
#7
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:42:13 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Ed Huntress fired this volley in : The former is much more likely. I think the thing to do is to start at the tool tip and work your way out from there. Tool nose sharpness? Rake angle? Relief? Too much of the tool in the cut? Insert clamp? He's never identified it as chatter. If it's circumferential ridges spaced out along the work, instead of the common chatter herringbone, then it may be that there's some slop in the saddle gibs. If that's what it is, I'm not reading him right. Slight warp in the lead screw or longitudinal drive shaft can cause an eccentric action that, with a loose saddle, will cause a well-defined ridge a few tenths deep every revolution of the screw or shaft. LLoyd Yeah, but if it's just with this tool, I wouldn't draw that conclusion. -- Ed Huntress |
#8
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote: Ed Huntress fired this volley in : The former is much more likely. I think the thing to do is to start at the tool tip and work your way out from there. Tool nose sharpness? Rake angle? Relief? Too much of the tool in the cut? Insert clamp? He's never identified it as chatter. If it's circumferential ridges spaced out along the work, instead of the common chatter herringbone, then it may be that there's some slop in the saddle gibs. Slight warp in the lead screw or longitudinal drive shaft can cause an eccentric action that, with a loose saddle, will cause a well-defined ridge a few tenths deep every revolution of the screw or shaft. LLoyd Perhaps the rigidity issue is in the part, not the machine? The lathe sounds massive, but he's turning a part to 25mm which isn't that massive. |
#9
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
"Pete C." fired this volley in news:4f56be59$0$2789
: Perhaps the rigidity issue is in the part, not the machine? The lathe sounds massive, but he's turning a part to 25mm which isn't that massive. With "only" 7" of overhang, a 1" bar wouldn't be too rigid to deflect. He never mentioned whether or not it was supported on the outboard end, or in a steady. LLoyd |
#10
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Pete fired this volley in news:4f56be59$0$2789 : Perhaps the rigidity issue is in the part, not the machine? The lathe sounds massive, but he's turning a part to 25mm which isn't that massive. With "only" 7" of overhang, a 1" bar wouldn't be too rigid to deflect. He never mentioned whether or not it was supported on the outboard end, or in a steady. LLoyd The insert may be rubbing on the part from being set too high. John |
#11
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
Was the carbide insert also a negative rake type? If so, you'd be forcing the tool into the work to get it to cut and I could see this as a real issue with a bar only one inch in diameter. Pete Stanaitis --------------- |
#12
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Tool holder geometry, carbide vs ceramic, trigon inserts
On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:48:20 -0500, Wes wrote:
The other day, I needed to turn a shaft to 25mm diameter for a machine at work. Not a big deal I thought. I only need a 7" shaft, I'm turning 12L14, this should be easy. The first problem I ran into is that the normal CMNG tool holder I use would not clear the live center (this is a big lathe). So I looked around, I found a tool holder of the trigonal type. It had a ceramic insert in it but I knew where we had a machine running a carbide trigonal insert and installed one of those. Well, I never got a decent finish, it was so bad you could ridges across the item I turned. I tried a different carbide insert and it wasn't any better. It got to the point that I used a bit of sand paper, pressing the shaft through a bearing to burnish it to get a shaft I could use. I tried playing with the feed, speed and tweeking the tool height. Nothing made a difference. I should have just turned a longer shaft using the CMNG tool holder that always worked and parted off the excess. Anyway, what was the likely issue? It did look like the trigon tool holder had a bit more inclination but I didn't measure it. Thanks, Wes If you are using the live center be sure its actually *on* center. John |
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