Got water again. SHMBO is happy. I guess I'll never teach her to crap
in a bucketVBG I feel kind of dumb. The control box has motor
overloads. Only had the pump since '82 and didn't know that. At least
it was a cheap fix.

OK, the problem was short cycling. Air bladders out of air and pump
running 15 seconds to make pressure. I'd like to build a better mouse
trap. I'm thinking of a short cycle alarm. Get a timer relay that
trips when power is applied. If power drops before timer runs out,
apply power to buzzer. Should be just a few relays and wiring. But my
brain is pea size when it comes to EE logic. Can somebody draw this
up? Or, I'm open to another idea.

Karl

On 10/30/2011 8:46 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Got water again. SHMBO is happy. I guess I'll never teach her to crap
in a bucketVBG I feel kind of dumb. The control box has motor
overloads. Only had the pump since '82 and didn't know that. At least
it was a cheap fix.

OK, the problem was short cycling. Air bladders out of air and pump
running 15 seconds to make pressure. I'd like to build a better mouse
trap. I'm thinking of a short cycle alarm. Get a timer relay that
trips when power is applied. If power drops before timer runs out,
apply power to buzzer. Should be just a few relays and wiring. But my
brain is pea size when it comes to EE logic. Can somebody draw this
up? Or, I'm open to another idea.

Karl

Karl.
My suggestion is to replace the pressure tank with one of a better
quality. The water well system on this place is about the same age as yours.

The first owner replace the pump once due to pipe freezing at top of
well. We replace pump two years ago due to sand blocking. The pressure
tank has never been replaced.

My neighbor has replaced his tank twice in the same time frame but used
cheap tanks.

I can look up the name/part number if you are interested.

Paul

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 11:10:59 -0700, Paul Drahn
wrote:

On 10/30/2011 8:46 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Got water again. SHMBO is happy. I guess I'll never teach her to crap
in a bucketVBG I feel kind of dumb. The control box has motor
overloads. Only had the pump since '82 and didn't know that. At least
it was a cheap fix.

OK, the problem was short cycling. Air bladders out of air and pump
running 15 seconds to make pressure. I'd like to build a better mouse
trap. I'm thinking of a short cycle alarm. Get a timer relay that
trips when power is applied. If power drops before timer runs out,
apply power to buzzer. Should be just a few relays and wiring. But my
brain is pea size when it comes to EE logic. Can somebody draw this
up? Or, I'm open to another idea.

Karl

Karl.
My suggestion is to replace the pressure tank with one of a better
quality. The water well system on this place is about the same age as yours.

The first owner replace the pump once due to pipe freezing at top of
well. We replace pump two years ago due to sand blocking. The pressure
tank has never been replaced.

My neighbor has replaced his tank twice in the same time frame but used
cheap tanks.

I can look up the name/part number if you are interested.

Paul

yea, we already looked them up. Two 120 gallon tanks at $800 each.
Plus, I can see the plumbing would never come apart. I'm guessing a
couple hundred here for new fittings and pipe. This is a five horse
well and two inch plumbing.

Anyway, keeping them topped with air will have to do for a while. I've
been doing this 1/year with no trouble. I might have forgot last year.
Karl

On 10/30/2011 11:46 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Got water again. SHMBO is happy. I guess I'll never teach her to crap
in a bucketVBG I feel kind of dumb. The control box has motor
overloads. Only had the pump since '82 and didn't know that. At least
it was a cheap fix.

OK, the problem was short cycling. Air bladders out of air and pump
running 15 seconds to make pressure. I'd like to build a better mouse
trap. I'm thinking of a short cycle alarm. Get a timer relay that
trips when power is applied. If power drops before timer runs out,
apply power to buzzer. Should be just a few relays and wiring. But my
brain is pea size when it comes to EE logic. Can somebody draw this
up? Or, I'm open to another idea.

Karl


Install an air pressure sensor on the air side to alert you when the
pressure falls too low?

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:35:04 -0500
Karl Townsend wrote:

snip
yea, we already looked them up. Two 120 gallon tanks at $800 each.
Plus, I can see the plumbing would never come apart. I'm guessing a
couple hundred here for new fittings and pipe. This is a five horse
well and two inch plumbing.

Anyway, keeping them topped with air will have to do for a while. I've
been doing this 1/year with no trouble. I might have forgot last year.
Karl

Wel-X-trol used to make some pretty good bladder tanks. That is what my
Dad used to install with his jobs. Came from the local wholesale
supplier where he still had an "in".

The farm I worked on many years ago... just hooked up a light to the
pressure switch. When the light was on the pump was running (Doh!) and
it was pretty easy to deduce that something wasn't right when the light
was going on-off in a funny pattern. A simple delay switch might do the
trick too.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:06:45 -0400, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:

On 10/30/2011 11:46 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Got water again. SHMBO is happy. I guess I'll never teach her to crap
in a bucketVBG I feel kind of dumb. The control box has motor
overloads. Only had the pump since '82 and didn't know that. At least
it was a cheap fix.

OK, the problem was short cycling. Air bladders out of air and pump
running 15 seconds to make pressure. I'd like to build a better mouse
trap. I'm thinking of a short cycle alarm. Get a timer relay that
trips when power is applied. If power drops before timer runs out,
apply power to buzzer. Should be just a few relays and wiring. But my
brain is pea size when it comes to EE logic. Can somebody draw this
up? Or, I'm open to another idea.

Karl


Install an air pressure sensor on the air side to alert you when the
pressure falls too low?
I could be wrong, but I don't think that would work - the pressure
stays the same, just not enough volume??

On 10/30/2011 11:35 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 11:10:59 -0700, Paul Drahn
wrote:

On 10/30/2011 8:46 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Got water again. SHMBO is happy. I guess I'll never teach her to crap
in a bucketVBG I feel kind of dumb. The control box has motor
overloads. Only had the pump since '82 and didn't know that. At least
it was a cheap fix.

OK, the problem was short cycling. Air bladders out of air and pump
running 15 seconds to make pressure. I'd like to build a better mouse
trap. I'm thinking of a short cycle alarm. Get a timer relay that
trips when power is applied. If power drops before timer runs out,
apply power to buzzer. Should be just a few relays and wiring. But my
brain is pea size when it comes to EE logic. Can somebody draw this
up? Or, I'm open to another idea.

Karl

Karl.
My suggestion is to replace the pressure tank with one of a better
quality. The water well system on this place is about the same age as yours.

The first owner replace the pump once due to pipe freezing at top of
well. We replace pump two years ago due to sand blocking. The pressure
tank has never been replaced.

My neighbor has replaced his tank twice in the same time frame but used
cheap tanks.

I can look up the name/part number if you are interested.

Paul

yea, we already looked them up. Two 120 gallon tanks at $800 each.
Plus, I can see the plumbing would never come apart. I'm guessing a
couple hundred here for new fittings and pipe. This is a five horse
well and two inch plumbing.

Anyway, keeping them topped with air will have to do for a while. I've
been doing this 1/year with no trouble. I might have forgot last year.
Karl
You got me curious, so I got the brochure from the well file. It is a
WELL-X-TROL by Amtrol, Inc. Probably their WX-251 unit. They are
permanently pressurized at the factory. Ours has been emptied many times
for various reasons and have never had a problem.

Paul

The one time I worked on a well pump, it had some kind of
gadget that "regulates the air". I think I finally figured
it out. Diaphram, and a couple check valves. Every time the
pump went on and off, it injected a bit of air into the well
tank. Made perfect sense, to me.

Bit metal air compressor, and blow the water out of the
tanks. That works too. Twice a year, with clock changes and
smoke detector batteries.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Karl Townsend" wrote in
message ...

yea, we already looked them up. Two 120 gallon tanks at $800
each.
Plus, I can see the plumbing would never come apart. I'm
guessing a
couple hundred here for new fittings and pipe. This is a
five horse
well and two inch plumbing.

Anyway, keeping them topped with air will have to do for a
while. I've
been doing this 1/year with no trouble. I might have forgot
last year.
Karl

Better replace the start capacitor and relay. It will not be long
short cycling and age are sure signs to me. Grainger or an
equivalent will have the parts. Make sure the run caps are good too.
You should have 10.5 amps on the RED or start leg. If it is less add
the appropriate capacitance.

Scott

On 10/30/2011 12:06 PM, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
On 10/30/2011 11:46 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Got water again. SHMBO is happy. I guess I'll never teach her to crap
in a bucketVBG I feel kind of dumb. The control box has motor
overloads. Only had the pump since '82 and didn't know that. At least
it was a cheap fix.

OK, the problem was short cycling. Air bladders out of air and pump
running 15 seconds to make pressure. I'd like to build a better mouse
trap. I'm thinking of a short cycle alarm. Get a timer relay that
trips when power is applied. If power drops before timer runs out,
apply power to buzzer. Should be just a few relays and wiring. But my
brain is pea size when it comes to EE logic. Can somebody draw this
up? Or, I'm open to another idea.

Karl


Install an air pressure sensor on the air side to alert you when the
pressure falls too low?


I think I'd use a 555 timer configured for whatever you think a minimum
run time should be, use the circuit from the app note that starts the
timer on rising voltage. power the timer from a wall wart running on
the primary power, trigger it (start it) with pump start. Use a
standard latch circuit to set an alarm if the power to the motor is off
when the timer expires.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:35:04 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


On 10/30/2011 8:46 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Got water again. SHMBO is happy. I guess I'll never teach her to crap
in a bucketVBG I feel kind of dumb. The control box has motor
overloads. Only had the pump since '82 and didn't know that. At least
it was a cheap fix.

OK, the problem was short cycling. Air bladders out of air and pump
running 15 seconds to make pressure. I'd like to build a better mouse
trap. I'm thinking of a short cycle alarm. Get a timer relay that
trips when power is applied. If power drops before timer runs out,
apply power to buzzer. Should be just a few relays and wiring. But my
brain is pea size when it comes to EE logic. Can somebody draw this
up? Or, I'm open to another idea.

Karl

Hey Karl,

Allen-Bradley makes a nice timer. They can be set up in many modes.
They would handle the pump relay (not the pump direct). I use one of
these in a similar manner to protect my air compresser so it doesn't
run too long or too often.

http://ab.rockwellautomation.com/Relays-and-Timers/Dial-Timing-Relays

http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/br/700-br020_-en-p.pdf

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:38:17 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

The farm I worked on many years ago... just hooked up a light to the
pressure switch. When the light was on the pump was running (Doh!) and
it was pretty easy to deduce that something wasn't right when the light
was going on-off in a funny pattern. A simple delay switch might do the
trick too.

Bingo! Get a Vaportight outdoor wall fixture ('Jelly Jar' with a
protective cage) and put a 4O Box up on a Rigid conduit riser over
the well building (use a roof jack for the shingles) so you can see it
from all around.

Do NOT get the 'lantern' style Vaportight where the jar is pointed
straight up - those depend on there being a good gasket at the base of
the jar to keep the water out, worst case it runs down the inside of
the conduit and does nasty things to your pump panel.

With the jar mounted Open End Up gravity keeps the water out of the
fixture, the gasket is only there for washdown circumstances.

Put a Green or Amber globe on it, and a ~40W 130V A Lamp. It will
catch your eye from anywhere when the pump is running, and if the
light is blinking and fluttering you know something's up.

You could add a second Red one and hook it to a pressure switch if it
can't get enough pressure up - you might be overdrafting the well and
it's running dry. Or better, you get a Warrick Relay (Warrick
Controls Co.) - they have a low-voltage electrode that looks like a
sparkplug, you drill and tap a hole in the side of the well output
pipe. When the pump starts sucking air the detector electrode goes
open to ground, and it will trigger the Warrick to shut down the pump
until reset.

If you get a deal on an 'Indicator Stack' light that's outdoor rated,
go for it. You can then have a White indicator for Power On, Amber or
Green for run, Red for Failure, and a Blue for a Heating Alarm - the
pumphouse heater or stat has failed and it's below 45F in there.

But then again, let's not... What am I saying?? R.C.M ALWAYS
over-thinks these things!!

-- Bruce --

"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)" wrote:

But then again, let's not... What am I saying?? R.C.M ALWAYS
over-thinks these things!!


No. Overthinking would involve adding a Klaxton so you can 'hear'
when the pump is running. ;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On 31/10/2011 4:11 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)" wrote:

But then again, let's not... What am I saying?? R.C.M ALWAYS
over-thinks these things!!


No. Overthinking would involve adding a Klaxton so you can 'hear'
when the pump is running. ;-)



Wait a minute. This is 2011. You should be able to check it remotely
on your phone. Surely there's an App for that...... ;-)

Pete

--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario,
Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

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On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 08:47:11 -0400, Pete Snell wrote:

On 31/10/2011 4:11 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)" wrote:

But then again, let's not... What am I saying?? R.C.M ALWAYS
over-thinks these things!!


No. Overthinking would involve adding a Klaxton so you can 'hear'
when the pump is running. ;-)



Wait a minute. This is 2011. You should be able to check it remotely
on your phone. Surely there's an App for that...... ;-)

http://video.pbs.org/video/1402987791/ A cautionary tale. 1:26:10
Frontline: Digital Nation

--
Inside every older person is a younger person wondering WTF happened.

Pete Snell wrote:

Wait a minute. This is 2011. You should be able to check it remotely
on your phone. Surely there's an App for that...... ;-)


Sure, but your neighbor may not want to install that app. ;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Oct 30, 11:52*pm, Bill wrote:
On 10/30/2011 12:06 PM, Stuart Wheaton wrote:





On 10/30/2011 11:46 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
Got water again. SHMBO is happy. I guess I'll never teach her to crap
in a bucketVBG I feel kind of dumb. The control box has motor
overloads. Only had the pump since '82 and didn't know that. At least
it was a cheap fix.

OK, the problem was short cycling. Air bladders out of air and pump
running 15 seconds to make pressure. I'd like to build a better mouse
trap. I'm thinking of a short cycle alarm. Get a timer relay that
trips when power is applied. If power drops before timer runs out,
apply power to buzzer. Should be just a few relays and wiring. But my
brain is pea size when it comes to EE logic. Can somebody draw this
up? Or, I'm open to another idea.

Karl

Install an air pressure sensor on the air side to alert you when the
pressure falls too low?

I think I'd use a 555 timer configured for whatever you think a minimum
run time should be, use the circuit from the app note that starts the
timer on rising voltage. *power the timer from a wall wart running on
the primary power, trigger it (start it) with pump start. *Use a
standard latch circuit to set an alarm if the power to the motor is off
when the timer expires.

I was thinking this would be a good application for an AVR or some
such microcontroller. Wasn't Karl working on a temerature sensing
thing with a micro a while back - something about radio interference?
This would be a good add-on for that project.

On 31-Oct-2011 18:55, rangerssuck wrote:


I was thinking this would be a good application for an AVR or some
such microcontroller.

Yes. This is the sort of project folks do with Arduino systems
all the time. Look at the forums on http://arduino.cc/

Arduino is a super low-barrier-to-entry microcontroller development
platform aimed (partly) at education and artists.

As regards the actual core problem, I would also look at Terry
Love's most excellent Pumps and Wells forum. Lots of expertise there
to draw on.

__________________________________________________ __________________
Gardner Buchanan gbuchana(a)teksavvy(dot)com
FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today.

Gardner wrote:

On 31-Oct-2011 18:55, rangerssuck wrote:


I was thinking this would be a good application for an AVR or some
such microcontroller.

Yes. This is the sort of project folks do with Arduino systems
all the time. Look at the forums on http://arduino.cc/

Arduino is a super low-barrier-to-entry microcontroller development
platform aimed (partly) at education and artists.


I just got an Arduino MEGA2560 Board in the mail today. I'm waiting
on the prototype card to build a project.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On 31/10/2011 5:22 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Pete Snell wrote:

Wait a minute. This is 2011. You should be able to check it remotely
on your phone. Surely there's an App for that...... ;-)


Sure, but your neighbor may not want to install that app. ;-)


Ha! True, but he might not appreciate the Klaxton either!

Pete

--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario,
Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Imagination is more important than knowledge.

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Pete Snell wrote:

On 31/10/2011 5:22 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Pete Snell wrote:

Wait a minute. This is 2011. You should be able to check it remotely
on your phone. Surely there's an App for that...... ;-)


Sure, but your neighbor may not want to install that app. ;-)


Ha! True, but he might not appreciate the Klaxton either!


That's why he'll call you and tell you that your well pump has
problems, no matter where you are. ;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.