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#1
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P-51 Crash
When I first heard about the crash I thought the plane was a
refurbished WW II standard P-51 and that it was being flown in a War bird exhibition. I felt bad for the pilot, and for the people who died in the crowd and for the loss of an historic aircraft. Today (Sunday 09-18-11) I read an article in the paper about what happened. It seems that the P-51 had been highly modified for greater speed in an air race. One of the mod's was to remove 5 feet off of each wing tip and to modify the edge of the remaining wing. Couple this with the age of the pilot and the speed and g-forces involved and the chances of a crash increase greatly. To me it seems to have been bad judgment to make these mod's to an aircraft of this vintage and history, and extremely bad judgment on the part of the pilot to fly in the race. I Still feel bad for the deaths and injuries to all those involved, but also feel that it should have been avoided. |
#2
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P-51 Crash
On 2011-09-17, bobm46 wrote:
When I first heard about the crash I thought the plane was a refurbished WW II standard P-51 and that it was being flown in a War bird exhibition. I felt bad for the pilot, and for the people who died in the crowd and for the loss of an historic aircraft. Today (Sunday 09-18-11) I read an article in the paper about what happened. It seems that the P-51 had been highly modified for greater speed in an air race. One of the mod's was to remove 5 feet off of each wing tip and to modify the edge of the remaining wing. Couple this with the age of the pilot and the speed and g-forces involved and the chances of a crash increase greatly. To me it seems to have been bad judgment to make these mod's to an aircraft of this vintage and history, and extremely bad judgment on the part of the pilot to fly in the race. I Still feel bad for the deaths and injuries to all those involved, but also feel that it should have been avoided. When I read about those crashes and deaths, I always wonder, why can't they organize the races or shows so that the planes fly not too close to the crowds? |
#3
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P-51 Crash
On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 13:00:21 -0500, Ignoramus30681
wrote: On 2011-09-17, bobm46 wrote: When I first heard about the crash I thought the plane was a refurbished WW II standard P-51 and that it was being flown in a War bird exhibition. I felt bad for the pilot, and for the people who died in the crowd and for the loss of an historic aircraft. Today (Sunday 09-18-11) I read an article in the paper about what happened. It seems that the P-51 had been highly modified for greater speed in an air race. One of the mod's was to remove 5 feet off of each wing tip and to modify the edge of the remaining wing. Couple this with the age of the pilot and the speed and g-forces involved and the chances of a crash increase greatly. To me it seems to have been bad judgment to make these mod's to an aircraft of this vintage and history, and extremely bad judgment on the part of the pilot to fly in the race. I Still feel bad for the deaths and injuries to all those involved, but also feel that it should have been avoided. When I read about those crashes and deaths, I always wonder, why can't they organize the races or shows so that the planes fly not too close to the crowds? It's human nature to want to be as close to the action as possible. Have you ever been in the front row at the starting line of a drag race when either top fuelers or funny cars were running? Remember _feeling_ the sound (beneath your muffs and ear plugs) and breathing the nitro exhaust? I remember wading up to my waist in Mission Bay on an outside corner where the thunderboats were racing. We got splashed by Miss Budweiser who flew by us at 100mph not 50 feet away. Hayseuss Crisco, I wouldn't do that foolish thing again (now that I'm sober) but it was a very memorable experience. The bottom line is the bottom line. If people aren't thrilled and can't experience some of the risk, vendors sell fewer tickets. Fewer tickets means lower prize awards. Lower prize money attracts fewer top acts and the bottom falls out of the sport. -- Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. -- Thomas Jefferson |
#4
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P-51 Crash
On 9/18/2011 1:00 PM, Ignoramus30681 wrote:
On 2011-09-17, wrote: When I first heard about the crash I thought the plane was a refurbished WW II standard P-51 and that it was being flown in a War bird exhibition. I felt bad for the pilot, and for the people who died in the crowd and for the loss of an historic aircraft. Today (Sunday 09-18-11) I read an article in the paper about what happened. It seems that the P-51 had been highly modified for greater speed in an air race. One of the mod's was to remove 5 feet off of each wing tip and to modify the edge of the remaining wing. Couple this with the age of the pilot and the speed and g-forces involved and the chances of a crash increase greatly. To me it seems to have been bad judgment to make these mod's to an aircraft of this vintage and history, and extremely bad judgment on the part of the pilot to fly in the race. I Still feel bad for the deaths and injuries to all those involved, but also feel that it should have been avoided. When I read about those crashes and deaths, I always wonder, why can't they organize the races or shows so that the planes fly not too close to the crowds? You can fly as high as you want. But it's harder at higher altitude. The pylons define the turn points and it's not like you pull up to the pylon and turn left. The course is almost 8 1/2 miles long. At 500 mph that takes just under 1 minute. I'm not sure what the turning radius would be at 4 Gs but it would be a rather large arc! Pretty close to an oblong circle? In order to even see the pylons you have to be down close to the ground. Here is a map of the race course. http://aafo.com/racing/news/99/images/UL99MAP-2.jpg |
#5
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P-51 Crash
Richard wrote: On 9/18/2011 1:00 PM, Ignoramus30681 wrote: On 2011-09-17, wrote: When I first heard about the crash I thought the plane was a refurbished WW II standard P-51 and that it was being flown in a War bird exhibition. I felt bad for the pilot, and for the people who died in the crowd and for the loss of an historic aircraft. Today (Sunday 09-18-11) I read an article in the paper about what happened. It seems that the P-51 had been highly modified for greater speed in an air race. One of the mod's was to remove 5 feet off of each wing tip and to modify the edge of the remaining wing. Couple this with the age of the pilot and the speed and g-forces involved and the chances of a crash increase greatly. To me it seems to have been bad judgment to make these mod's to an aircraft of this vintage and history, and extremely bad judgment on the part of the pilot to fly in the race. I Still feel bad for the deaths and injuries to all those involved, but also feel that it should have been avoided. When I read about those crashes and deaths, I always wonder, why can't they organize the races or shows so that the planes fly not too close to the crowds? You can fly as high as you want. But it's harder at higher altitude. The pylons define the turn points and it's not like you pull up to the pylon and turn left. The course is almost 8 1/2 miles long. At 500 mph that takes just under 1 minute. I'm not sure what the turning radius would be at 4 Gs but it would be a rather large arc! Pretty close to an oblong circle? In order to even see the pylons you have to be down close to the ground. Here is a map of the race course. http://aafo.com/racing/news/99/images/UL99MAP-2.jpg Here are a couple photos I took of his Leeward Air Group, flying at our Veteran's Park: http://www.flickr.com/photos/materre...7617628185878/ -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
#6
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P-51 Crash
Ignoramus30681 wrote: On 2011-09-17, bobm46 wrote: When I first heard about the crash I thought the plane was a refurbished WW II standard P-51 and that it was being flown in a War bird exhibition. I felt bad for the pilot, and for the people who died in the crowd and for the loss of an historic aircraft. Today (Sunday 09-18-11) I read an article in the paper about what happened. It seems that the P-51 had been highly modified for greater speed in an air race. One of the mod's was to remove 5 feet off of each wing tip and to modify the edge of the remaining wing. Couple this with the age of the pilot and the speed and g-forces involved and the chances of a crash increase greatly. To me it seems to have been bad judgment to make these mod's to an aircraft of this vintage and history, and extremely bad judgment on the part of the pilot to fly in the race. I Still feel bad for the deaths and injuries to all those involved, but also feel that it should have been avoided. When I read about those crashes and deaths, I always wonder, why can't they organize the races or shows so that the planes fly not too close to the crowds? If the planes didn't fly close, nobody would attend. |
#7
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P-51 Crash
"Ignoramus30681" wrote When I read about those crashes and deaths, I always wonder, why can't they organize the races or shows so that the planes fly not too close to the crowds? I see car races all over the world with spectators sitting on the edge of death. And sometimes it comes. Steve |
#8
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P-51 Crash
On 9/17/2011 5:42 PM, bobm46 wrote:
When I first heard about the crash I thought the plane was a refurbished WW II standard P-51 and that it was being flown in a War bird exhibition. I felt bad for the pilot, and for the people who died in the crowd and for the loss of an historic aircraft. Today (Sunday 09-18-11) I read an article in the paper about what happened. It seems that the P-51 had been highly modified for greater speed in an air race. One of the mod's was to remove 5 feet off of each wing tip and to modify the edge of the remaining wing. Couple this with the age of the pilot and the speed and g-forces involved and the chances of a crash increase greatly. To me it seems to have been bad judgment to make these mod's to an aircraft of this vintage and history, and extremely bad judgment on the part of the pilot to fly in the race. I Still feel bad for the deaths and injuries to all those involved, but also feel that it should have been avoided. Planes in that category are like "King Arthur's Original Battle Axe" - the handle has been replaced three times and the head twice. Can you really say that age contributed to the accident? At what age must people not be allowed to do things? |
#9
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P-51 Crash
On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 14:06:25 -0400, Tom Gardner mars@tacks wrote:
On 9/17/2011 5:42 PM, bobm46 wrote: When I first heard about the crash I thought the plane was a refurbished WW II standard P-51 and that it was being flown in a War bird exhibition. I felt bad for the pilot, and for the people who died in the crowd and for the loss of an historic aircraft. Today (Sunday 09-18-11) I read an article in the paper about what happened. It seems that the P-51 had been highly modified for greater speed in an air race. One of the mod's was to remove 5 feet off of each wing tip and to modify the edge of the remaining wing. Couple this with the age of the pilot and the speed and g-forces involved and the chances of a crash increase greatly. To me it seems to have been bad judgment to make these mod's to an aircraft of this vintage and history, and extremely bad judgment on the part of the pilot to fly in the race. I Still feel bad for the deaths and injuries to all those involved, but also feel that it should have been avoided. Planes in that category are like "King Arthur's Original Battle Axe" - the handle has been replaced three times and the head twice. Can you really say that age contributed to the accident? At what age must people not be allowed to do things? If what is assumed to have happened actually happened, 80 or 18 would not make a significant difference - and as for the plane - calling it a 194X P51 is stretching it - as large parts of the plane will have been replaced, modified, and rebuilt several times over during it's racing carreer. It's a bit like a funny car. It might LOOK like a 1982 Camaro - - - - - - - -. Or even a Nascar stocker. It might LOOK like a Toyota Camry ___ _ _ _ _. In the case of the plane it's a LITTLE different - because at one point it actually WAS a P51 Mustang. |
#10
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P-51 Crash
wrote In the case of the plane it's a LITTLE different - because at one point it actually WAS a P51 Mustang. I think it's going to get real interesting legally. Obviously the pilot was a man of means, and that spells lawsuit. It tickles my curiosity about who has the responsibility to make the final determination regarding the aircraft modifications. I'm sure it is the FAA. But since this is such a rare bird, the "laws" and "regulations" about such changes will be, I think, ........ vague. This one had some changes that were noteworthy enough to become part of the "news" about the crash and facts that were reported. Did I just infer facts and newspeople in the same sentence? Sorry. Isn't Nancy Grace going to have fun with this one? Steve |
#11
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P-51 Crash
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#12
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P-51 Crash
Steve B wrote:
wrote In the case of the plane it's a LITTLE different - because at one point it actually WAS a P51 Mustang. I think it's going to get real interesting legally. Obviously the pilot was a man of means, and that spells lawsuit. It tickles my curiosity about who has the responsibility to make the final determination regarding the aircraft modifications. I'm sure it is the FAA. But since this is such a rare bird, the "laws" and "regulations" about such changes will be, I think, ........ vague. This one had some changes that were noteworthy enough to become part of the "news" about the crash and facts that were reported. Did I just infer facts and newspeople in the same sentence? Sorry. I've been thinking about that too. As I understand the FAA regs, an experimental aircraft, after major mods, has to undergo 40 hours of flight testing over an FAA-approved, unpopulated area to shake loose stuff like this. I think there will be some interesting questions raised. |
#13
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P-51 Crash
"Jim Stewart" wrote I've been thinking about that too. As I understand the FAA regs, an experimental aircraft, after major mods, has to undergo 40 hours of flight testing over an FAA-approved, unpopulated area to shake loose stuff like this. I think there will be some interesting questions raised. Today, Monday, 1PM MST, I saw a new video of the crash from another angle and much closer to the impact point. At the end of the broadcast, the "news" announcer said the FAA would (paraphrasing, IIRC, and all that) likely make changes regarding crowd placement at future races. From the angle the video was taken, I would have considered where the plane impacted to be a VERY dangerous position too close to the action, and would have never sat there. I go to, and have gone to, hundreds of various sporting events. I prefer to be back enough to have a better overall view, and for a safety factor. IMHO, those people were much much too close. But there are purely stupid people in the world who want to get next to the race track, or close to a police gunfight or whatever. You can't fix stupid and they will continue to do it. Steve |
#14
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P-51 Crash
On 9/19/2011 1:59 PM, Jim Stewart wrote:
As I understand the FAA regs, an experimental aircraft, after major mods, has to undergo 40 hours of flight testing over an FAA-approved, unpopulated area to shake loose stuff like this. I think there will be some interesting questions raised. You do not understand the FAA regs. You are quoting from a portion of Experimental Amateur-Built for when a non-type-certificated engine, propeller, or engine/propeller combination is installed. After the initial flight testing, a testing period for later modifications may be assigned a much shorter period of time, in the Amateur-Built class. The flight test area is determined by the operator and the overseeing FAA FSDO. These modified planes for racing are operated under Experimental-Air Racing, Group III. All flight and maintenance operations, including, various flight testing regimes and areas, are defined and restricted by the individual airplane's program letter which is tailored specifically for the individual airplane by the operators and the overseeing FAA Flight Safety District Offices. Any modification to the program must have prior notification to the governing FSDO by fax, with concurrence of the FSDO and any new FSDO involved. In other words, the rules for Experimental-Air Racing are tailored to each individual airplane's situation with direct FAA oversight and lots of internal FAA policy making. |
#17
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P-51 Crash
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#18
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This thread is hijacked - everyone stay in their seats. (was P-51Crash)
Speaking of planes: I took a joy ride today - what a hoot, as they used
to say. I have the picture to prove it: http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/BettyJane.jpg |
#19
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This thread is hijacked - everyone stay in their seats. (wasP-51 Crash)
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
... http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/BettyJane.jpg Well, OK ... that is a stock picture and I'm not in it. But I did have a ride in that very plane. Not only rode in it, but flew it, a little bit (it's the only fully dual-control P-51 in the world). The pilot would have given me all the aerobatics, but after a 4-point roll and a little inverted, I started getting queasy. I really felt cheated ... it would have been so cool to do more. If only they had warned me to take some Dramamine, there's no telling what I would have been up for. Bob |
#20
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This thread is hijacked - everyone stay in their seats. (was P-51 Crash)
On Sep 18, 6:51*pm, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote: ... http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/BettyJane.jpg Well, OK ... that is a stock picture and I'm not in it. *But I did have a ride in that very plane. *Not only rode in it, but flew it, a little bit (it's the only fully dual-control P-51 in the world). The pilot would have given me all the aerobatics, but after a 4-point roll and a little inverted, I started getting queasy. *I really felt cheated ... it would have been so cool to do more. *If only they had warned me to take some Dramamine, there's no telling what I would have been up for. Bob Where did you do this?? Milton C. |
#21
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This thread is hijacked - everyone stay in their seats. (wasP-51 Crash)
Milton C. wrote:
Where did you do this?? Beverly, MA. Offered by the Collings Foundation "Wings of Freedom". They travel the country with a B-17, a B-24, and the P-51. Their schedule: http://www.collingsfoundation.org/cf_schedule-wof.htm The P-51 ride was so expensive that I could only justify it as a "once in a lifetime" experience. Kinda' in the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" category. Bob |
#22
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This thread is hijacked - everyone stay in their seats. (was P-51 Crash)
On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 17:46:46 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: Milton C. wrote: Where did you do this?? Beverly, MA. Offered by the Collings Foundation "Wings of Freedom". They travel the country with a B-17, a B-24, and the P-51. Their schedule: http://www.collingsfoundation.org/cf_schedule-wof.htm The P-51 ride was so expensive that I could only justify it as a "once in a lifetime" experience. Kinda' in the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" category. Bob I saw them at Ft. Myers Paige Filed a couple of years back....and you sure are correct about the "if you have to ask..." part. I could only afford an autographed book!! Seem to recall they even had a price on getting a walk/crawl-through on the B-17 and B-24. Take care. Brian Lawson, Bothwell,mOntario. |
#23
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This thread is hijacked - everyone stay in their seats. (was P-51 Crash)
On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 17:46:46 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: Milton C. wrote: Where did you do this?? Beverly, MA. Offered by the Collings Foundation "Wings of Freedom". They travel the country with a B-17, a B-24, and the P-51. Their schedule: http://www.collingsfoundation.org/cf_schedule-wof.htm The P-51 ride was so expensive that I could only justify it as a "once in a lifetime" experience. Kinda' in the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" category. Bob Someone told me that a P-51 burns 90 gallons of gasoline an hour during takeoff but only 60 gallons per hour while cruising. Not a cheap ride. |
#24
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This thread is hijacked - everyone stay in their seats. (wasP-51Crash)
Bob Engelhardt wrote: Milton C. wrote: Where did you do this?? Beverly, MA. Offered by the Collings Foundation "Wings of Freedom". They travel the country with a B-17, a B-24, and the P-51. Their schedule: http://www.collingsfoundation.org/cf_schedule-wof.htm The P-51 ride was so expensive that I could only justify it as a "once in a lifetime" experience. Kinda' in the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" category. No kidding. But the cost per hour of flight has to be covered by the customers and those old planes aren't fuel efficient. I've seen some of their planes on display at the Ocala airport. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
#25
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P-51 Crash
On Sep 17, 5:42*pm, bobm46 wrote:
* * * * When I first heard about the crash I thought the plane was a refurbished WW II standard P-51 and that it was being flown in a War bird exhibition. I felt bad for the pilot, and for the people who died in the crowd and for the loss of an historic aircraft. * * * * Today (Sunday 09-18-11) I read an article in the paper about what happened. It seems that the P-51 had been highly modified for greater speed in an air race. One of the mod's was to remove 5 feet off of each wing tip and to modify the edge of the remaining wing. Couple this with the age of the pilot and the speed and g-forces involved and the chances of a crash increase greatly. * * * * To me it seems to have been bad judgment to make these mod's to an aircraft of this vintage and history, and extremely bad judgment on the part of the pilot to fly in the race. * * * * I Still feel bad for the deaths and injuries to all those involved, but also feel that it should have been avoided. Initial investigation and a pretty clear photograph show that the elevator trim tab separated from the elevator, which would have caused a major loss of pitch control. The modifications to the wings would have had nothing to do with that. People sit close to the action at air races because, well, that's what they want to do. It's part of the excitement. The slogan at Reno is, "Fly low, fly fast, turn left." |
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