Basically, how to? Rolled wire edges on thin aluminum sheet?

"Richard" wrote in message
m...
Basically, how to? Rolled wire edges on thin aluminum sheet?

On the right side of the page are illustrations on how to do it on a rotary
machine.
http://www.tpub.com/content/construc...s/14251_59.htm

You can also do it with a hammer and a stake, but that takes a long
explanation.

Paul K. Dickman

On 9/5/2011 3:16 PM, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
m...
Basically, how to? Rolled wire edges on thin aluminum sheet?

On the right side of the page are illustrations on how to do it on a rotary
machine.
http://www.tpub.com/content/construc...s/14251_59.htm

You can also do it with a hammer and a stake, but that takes a long
explanation.

Paul K. Dickman



Thanks, Paul

"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
...

"Richard" wrote in message
m...
Basically, how to? Rolled wire edges on thin aluminum sheet?

On the right side of the page are illustrations on how to do it on a
rotary machine.
http://www.tpub.com/content/construc...s/14251_59.htm

You can also do it with a hammer and a stake, but that takes a long
explanation.

Paul K. Dickman

If the sheet is flat you could cut an acceptably half round edge on a piece
of steel, clamp it to the aluminum and bend the seam allowance over it. Then
insert the wire and hammer or press the seam closed.

The 3-in-1 import sheet metal machine has grooves in the rolls for making
circular wire loops and possibly rolled wired edges. The CM manual doesn't
tell how. It didn't work out for me because I couldn't simultaneously hold
the metal and wire in place and turn the handle.

jsw

On 9/5/2011 5:02 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Paul K. wrote in message
...

wrote in message
m...
Basically, how to? Rolled wire edges on thin aluminum sheet?

On the right side of the page are illustrations on how to do it on a
rotary machine.
http://www.tpub.com/content/construc...s/14251_59.htm

You can also do it with a hammer and a stake, but that takes a long
explanation.

Paul K. Dickman

If the sheet is flat you could cut an acceptably half round edge on a piece
of steel, clamp it to the aluminum and bend the seam allowance over it. Then
insert the wire and hammer or press the seam closed.

The 3-in-1 import sheet metal machine has grooves in the rolls for making
circular wire loops and possibly rolled wired edges. The CM manual doesn't
tell how. It didn't work out for me because I couldn't simultaneously hold
the metal and wire in place and turn the handle.

jsw



The latter sounds more like what I need.
It's not a flat piece though.

It a cockpit combing (surround/fairing) piece that needs a stiffened edge.

Sounds like a job for four hands?

"Richard" wrote in message
m...
On 9/5/2011 5:02 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
The latter sounds more like what I need.
It's not a flat piece though.

It a cockpit combing (surround/fairing) piece that needs a stiffened edge.

Sounds like a job for four hands?

The four hands of two experienced sheet-metal pros. I've heard that the edge
rolling machines

http://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch...kit-34104.html

are difficult to use, even the good industrial-quality ones.

jsw

On 9/5/2011 5:02 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The 3-in-1 import sheet metal machine has grooves in the rolls for
making circular wire loops and possibly rolled wired edges. The CM
manual doesn't tell how. It didn't work out for me because I
couldn't simultaneously hold the metal and wire in place and turn
the handle.

I haven't seen this "3-in-1 import sheet metal machine" to which you
refer. But the usual way to wire an edge shouldn't require holding
wire and workpiece awkwardly. You turn up the edge, roll the wire to
fit, put the wire in place and manually ding a few spots on the edge
to hold the wire in place. Then you can fully close the edge over the
wire manually with a hammer or with a jenny without needing three
hands. (Unless, of course, the workpiece is very large, in which case
you probably needed a helper all the way through anyhow.)

Richard wrote:

It a cockpit combing (surround/fairing) piece that needs a stiffened
edge.

Sounds like a job for four hands?

Like, maybe 3' or more across? Yeah, 4 hands if you're going to use a
jenny/wiring machine.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Richard" ? wrote in message
m...
? On 9/5/2011 5:02 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
?? ...
? The latter sounds more like what I need.
? It's not a flat piece though.
?
? It a cockpit combing (surround/fairing) piece that needs a stiffened edge.
?
? Sounds like a job for four hands?

The four hands of two experienced sheet-metal pros. I've heard that the edge
rolling machines

http://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch...kit-34104.html

are difficult to use, even the good industrial-quality ones.


A freind of mine in Ohio made a lot of replacement parts for Model T
& Model A Fords. He had one of the machines Ford used to roll wire into
the edges of the fenders and it was one of the worst jobs they had to
do. He was a tool & die maker from Aeronca who started making a few
parts on the side. Aeronca laid some people off for a while, and he
never went back. He bought every original Ford T or A die he could
find, and made his own for things like the battery. He used bits &
pieces of corroded samples to make a new die. His quality was so high
that Ford let him use their early logo on his shipping boxes. He had
the best machine shop I ever had access to. I could use any machine in
the place that I needed, if it wasn't busy. It was intersting to watch a
flat sheet of steel be stamped a couple times and turned into a new
fender. Or to watch him assemble the can they made with with the early
Ford logo with an insert from Echlin.


I finally tracked it down: Engle's A & T Reproductions, 2516 Oxford
State Rd, Middletown, OH 45044


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Richard" wrote in message
m...
On 9/5/2011 5:02 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Paul K. wrote in message
...

wrote in message
m...
Basically, how to? Rolled wire edges on thin aluminum sheet?

On the right side of the page are illustrations on how to do it on a
rotary machine.
http://www.tpub.com/content/construc...s/14251_59.htm

You can also do it with a hammer and a stake, but that takes a long
explanation.

Paul K. Dickman

If the sheet is flat you could cut an acceptably half round edge on a
piece
of steel, clamp it to the aluminum and bend the seam allowance over it.
Then
insert the wire and hammer or press the seam closed.

The 3-in-1 import sheet metal machine has grooves in the rolls for making
circular wire loops and possibly rolled wired edges. The CM manual
doesn't
tell how. It didn't work out for me because I couldn't simultaneously
hold
the metal and wire in place and turn the handle.

jsw



The latter sounds more like what I need.
It's not a flat piece though.

It a cockpit combing (surround/fairing) piece that needs a stiffened edge.

Sounds like a job for four hands?

Since you've done aircraft sheet metal work, do you have a wedge tool?
That's the hand tool that's traditionally used for starting an edge over
past 90 degrees, for things like inserting wire edges. It's also used for
shrinking metal edges over a wooden die, as when you're making a shallow
dish from a flat piece of aluminum. The wedge is used to work the bent-over
edge down the sides of the die, shrinking the metal as you go. This was
covered in a little volume titled _Aircraft Metalwork_ a few decades ago --
maybe published by the EAA? I forget. I may have a copy if it wasn't ruined
in the flood here.

Anyway, it works, but the result won't be as neat as you'll get with a
wire-edger or other type of roller that makes a channel for the wire.

--
Ed Huntress

"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
...

On 9/5/2011 5:02 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The 3-in-1 import sheet metal machine has grooves in the rolls ...

I haven't seen this "3-in-1 import sheet metal machine" to which you
refer. But the usual way to wire an edge shouldn't require holding
wire and workpiece awkwardly. You turn up the edge, roll the wire to
fit, put the wire in place and manually ding a few spots on the edge
to hold the wire in place. Then you can fully close the edge over the
wire manually with a hammer or with a jenny without needing three
hands. (Unless, of course, the workpiece is very large, in which case
you probably needed a helper all the way through anyhow.)
..
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

This is the user's manual:
http://www.northerntool.com/download...als/334987.pdf

The rollers and half-round grooves are shown on Figure 13, page 15. You can
skew the rear bending roller to form a cone such as a bucket, megaphone or
cockpit cowl and smooth the bend around the wire in the grooves, but the
sheet metal has to rotate as it passes through the front clamp rolls. It's a
fight between enough clamping pressure to force the metal against the
bending roll and too much to steer the wire into the groove.

They are cheaper and ocupy much less space than a separate shear, finger
brake and roll. I ran a company machine shop that had both types, as it was
a refuge for the equipment from closed labs. A well made 3-in-1 such as I
had there isn't too much worse than the separate machines. The Central
Machinery model like I have at home, second-hand, takes much fussing to work
well enough. It's OK unless pushed near its capacity, then it won't hold
adjustments long. 0.050" Al is quite a bit easier to work with on them than
0.062". (1.5mm)

jsw

On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:52:29 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:
snip
This was
covered in a little volume titled _Aircraft Metalwork_ a few decades ago --
maybe published by the EAA? I forget. I may have a copy if it wasn't ruined
in the flood here.
snip
===========
I don't know if either of these is the same book but see
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/sheet41/index.html
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks3/airc/index.html

and for our welders
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks7/airweld/index.html

also
http://www.shopeaa.com/eaasheetmetalbuildingbasics.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...lwork &page=1


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:52:29 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:
snip
This was
covered in a little volume titled _Aircraft Metalwork_ a few decades
ago --
maybe published by the EAA? I forget. I may have a copy if it wasn't
ruined
in the flood here.
snip
===========
I don't know if either of these is the same book but see
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/sheet41/index.html
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks3/airc/index.html

Nope, those are different books, but they look interesting.




and for our welders
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks7/airweld/index.html

also
http://www.shopeaa.com/eaasheetmetalbuildingbasics.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...lwork &page=1


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On 2011-09-06, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
...

On 9/5/2011 5:02 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The 3-in-1 import sheet metal machine has grooves in the rolls ...

I haven't seen this "3-in-1 import sheet metal machine" to which you
refer.

[ ... ]

This is the user's manual:
http://www.northerntool.com/download...als/334987.pdf

I like the manual -- in particular on PDF page 8 (printed page
number 6) warnings #10 ("Never leave when the machine is running") and
13 ("Ues a grounded extension cord rated for the machine amperage".) :-)

It does seem to contain more warnings and safety advice than
information on how to actually *do* something with it. :-)

And I like the fact that it can (supposedly) roll and bend 22
Ga. mild steel, but can only *shear* 28 Ga. mild steel. It does not
fill me with confidence. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2011-09-06, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
This is the user's manual:
http://www.northerntool.com/download...als/334987.pdf

I like the manual -- in particular on PDF page 8 (printed page
number 6) warnings #10 ("Never leave when the machine is running") and
13 ("Ues a grounded extension cord rated for the machine amperage".) :-)

It does seem to contain more warnings and safety advice than
information on how to actually *do* something with it. :-)

And I like the fact that it can (supposedly) roll and bend 22
Ga. mild steel, but can only *shear* 28 Ga. mild steel. It does not
fill me with confidence. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

IMHO they are for hobbyists who don't -need- a sheet metal machine. Mine is
a second-hand reject from industry. I could have used one to wrap enclosures
around circuit boards for heavy in-house use or make board meeting demo
prototypes of products if I hadn't had better equipment.

But that better equipment takes up a lot of space that I don't have in my
basement, thus I put up with the 3-in-1.

Effectively it helped expand my reputation until they'd give me a rough
circuit sketch and leave me alone to build it however I wanted, my idea of
the ideal techie job.

This cuts 1/8" steel easily for a lot less money:
http://www.amazon.com/Sheet-Metal-Al.../dp/B001BZ720O

jsw

On 2011-09-07, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

It does seem to contain more warnings and safety advice than
information on how to actually *do* something with it. :-)

And I like the fact that it can (supposedly) roll and bend 22
Ga. mild steel, but can only *shear* 28 Ga. mild steel. It does not
fill me with confidence. :-)

[ ... ]

IMHO they are for hobbyists who don't -need- a sheet metal machine. Mine is
a second-hand reject from industry. I could have used one to wrap enclosures
around circuit boards for heavy in-house use or make board meeting demo
prototypes of products if I hadn't had better equipment.

Sounds like a realable use for it.

But that better equipment takes up a lot of space that I don't have in my
basement, thus I put up with the 3-in-1.

I've got a 24" DiAcro finger brake and a 24" DiAcro shear --
both good to 16 Ga (about 0.062") in mild steel. But yes, they do
consume bench space.

Effectively it helped expand my reputation until they'd give me a rough
circuit sketch and leave me alone to build it however I wanted, my idea of
the ideal techie job.

Indeed the ideal.

This cuts 1/8" steel easily for a lot less money:
http://www.amazon.com/Sheet-Metal-Al.../dp/B001BZ720O

A variant on a Beverly shear. Great for making curved cuts, but
a bit of a pain to make straight cuts with. The price on that web site
looks pretty tempting, if I had any more bench space to mount it. As it
is, the shear it taking one end of a bench, and the reloading press the
other end of the same bench. The back side of the bench with the brake
is loaded with arbors and tool holders for the Nichols horizontal mill. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2011-09-07, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
This cuts 1/8" steel easily for a lot less money:
http://www.amazon.com/Sheet-Metal-Al.../dp/B001BZ720O

A variant on a Beverly shear. Great for making curved cuts, but
a bit of a pain to make straight cuts with. The price on that web site
looks pretty tempting, if I had any more bench space to mount it. As it
is, the shear it taking one end of a bench, and the reloading press the
other end of the same bench. The back side of the bench with the brake
is loaded with arbors and tool holders for the Nichols horizontal mill.
:-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

Not exactly. They have more straight-line guidance than a Beverly shear and
can cut curves in only one direction.

I made a wheeled stand with a trunnion top that holds the corner notcher on
one side and either this shear or the HF compact bender on the other, with
an accessory cabinet below. It sleeps jammed in with other wheeled
equipment. Usually though I attach the shear to a plank lying on the
driveway, which makes a good work surface for large sheets resting on 2x4s.

jsw