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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in
it. I want to use it for diesel. I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the fitting in place also. My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not explode. The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks. Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would becmoe quite hot under the sun. Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding? Would purging with argon be a good idea? i |
#2
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Jul 11, 3:57*pm, Ignoramus24437 ignoramus24...@NOSPAM.
24437.invalid wrote: I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in it. I want to use it for diesel. I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the fitting in place also. My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not explode. The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks. Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would becmoe quite hot under the sun. Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding? Would purging with argon be a good idea? i Steam clean, if possible. Just a little vapor can cause a lot of trouble. Old-timers would work on one if it was filled with water first. Inert gas is a good idea, but how can you tell if it's full enough? With water, there's no doubt. Stan |
#3
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:57:11 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote: I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in it. I want to use it for diesel. I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the fitting in place also. My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not explode. The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks. Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would becmoe quite hot under the sun. Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding? Would purging with argon be a good idea? i You're probably safe if it's been empty for a while & the air purged out. Still the argon or CO2 wouldn't hurt On steel tanks fittings tend to be soldered rather than brazed, getting thin sheet metal hot enough to braze but not to cause any number of problems you don't want is a bit of an art. H. |
#4
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
I have heard that the gas tank repair places fill it with water, weld it and
then dump it out to dry. --------- "Ignoramus24437" wrote in message ... I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in it. I want to use it for diesel. I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the fitting in place also. My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not explode. The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks. Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would becmoe quite hot under the sun. Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding? Would purging with argon be a good idea? i |
#5
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:57:11 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote: I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in it. I want to use it for diesel. I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the fitting in place also. My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not explode. The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks. Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would becmoe quite hot under the sun. Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding? Would purging with argon be a good idea? i My experience has been good with washing it out with hot soapy water, then discharging a CO2 extinguisher into the tank to displace all air and vapours. Argon would likely work too - it is denser than air at 1.78+ g/l compared to air at something close to 1.25 g/l at atmospheric pressure - not as heavy as CO2 at 1.96. |
#6
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
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#7
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:05:40 -0400, "Carl Ijames" wrote:
CO2 is the cheapest purge gas. You could mostly fill the tank with water and then purge the remaining headspace with CO2 gas or get some dry ice and toss it into the tank and let most of it sublime then start heating. To remove 95% of the air you need three tank volumes of gas, assuming the exhaust line is long and skinny to keep air from back-diffusing into the tank. Without water, 22 gal is 82.5 L so 3x is 247 L. If you have a flowmeter on your MIG CO2 tank you can crank the flow up and calculate how long to wait. You will get roughly 1000-fold expansion from the dry ice so 247 L/1000= 0.25 L of dry ice. Winging the density that would be about 500 g or 1.1 lbs, so get two or three pounds and wait until 2/3 or 3/4 has sublimed then fire up the torch. Again, you want the exhaust line to be long and skinny, not just the fill neck :-). 3X purge is not required with CO2 because CO2 is so much heavier than air. Put it in at the bottom of the tank and it will displace all air and vapour as it fills. 20% more than tank capacity is all that is really required - but I always play it safe and add a bit more part way through the job - particularly when brazing oil pans. And a long and skinny exhaust is NOT required if the filler kneck is located at the top when filling/welding. ----- Regards, Carl Ijames "Ignoramus24437" wrote in message m... I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in it. I want to use it for diesel. I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the fitting in place also. My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not explode. The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks. Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would becmoe quite hot under the sun. Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding? Would purging with argon be a good idea? i |
#8
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:11:09 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:57:11 -0500, Ignoramus24437 wrote: I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in it. I want to use it for diesel. I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the fitting in place also. My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not explode. The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks. Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would becmoe quite hot under the sun. Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding? Would purging with argon be a good idea? i Fill it with carbon monoxide from your exhaust pipe on your welder, car or any other internal combustion system..and while the engine is running..make the weld. Its cheap, only requires a shop vac hose and works well enough. But let it run for an hour or so before starting the weldment. Or you could simply drill a hole..thread it..and screw in your fitting. Id suggest a 3/4" fitting, with an adapter to the proper size, if done this way. Gunner In order to get enough CO from the exhaust of either of my cars you'd need to run it a LONG time. Less than .03 parts per million CO on the one car, and less than .003 parts per million on the other. And CO isn't the best purge gas anyway. Thankfully the concentration of CO2 in engine exhaust is quite high, and O2 content extremely low - so engine exhaust works reasonably well. Has the advantage of being HOT so it boils out any gasoline absorbed into rust scale etc, and trapped in pinch seams etc.. For gas tanks I generally either soldered or brazed repairs and fuel fittings |
#9
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
Thanks, Clare. I wanted to be sure that any error was on the side of
safety, just like I would if I were the one holding the torch :-). ----- Regards, Carl Ijames wrote in message ... On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:05:40 -0400, "Carl Ijames" wrote: CO2 is the cheapest purge gas. You could mostly fill the tank with water and then purge the remaining headspace with CO2 gas or get some dry ice and toss it into the tank and let most of it sublime then start heating. To remove 95% of the air you need three tank volumes of gas, assuming the exhaust line is long and skinny to keep air from back-diffusing into the tank. Without water, 22 gal is 82.5 L so 3x is 247 L. If you have a flowmeter on your MIG CO2 tank you can crank the flow up and calculate how long to wait. You will get roughly 1000-fold expansion from the dry ice so 247 L/1000= 0.25 L of dry ice. Winging the density that would be about 500 g or 1.1 lbs, so get two or three pounds and wait until 2/3 or 3/4 has sublimed then fire up the torch. Again, you want the exhaust line to be long and skinny, not just the fill neck :-). 3X purge is not required with CO2 because CO2 is so much heavier than air. Put it in at the bottom of the tank and it will displace all air and vapour as it fills. 20% more than tank capacity is all that is really required - but I always play it safe and add a bit more part way through the job - particularly when brazing oil pans. And a long and skinny exhaust is NOT required if the filler kneck is located at the top when filling/welding. ----- Regards, Carl Ijames "Ignoramus24437" wrote in message m... I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in it. I want to use it for diesel. I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the fitting in place also. My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not explode. The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks. Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would becmoe quite hot under the sun. Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding? Would purging with argon be a good idea? i |
#10
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
wrote in message ... On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:11:09 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:57:11 -0500, Ignoramus24437 wrote: I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in it. I want to use it for diesel. I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the fitting in place also. My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not explode. The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks. Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would becmoe quite hot under the sun. Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding? Would purging with argon be a good idea? i Fill it with carbon monoxide from your exhaust pipe on your welder, car or any other internal combustion system..and while the engine is running..make the weld. Its cheap, only requires a shop vac hose and works well enough. But let it run for an hour or so before starting the weldment. Or you could simply drill a hole..thread it..and screw in your fitting. Id suggest a 3/4" fitting, with an adapter to the proper size, if done this way. Gunner In order to get enough CO from the exhaust of either of my cars you'd need to run it a LONG time. Less than .03 parts per million CO on the one car, and less than .003 parts per million on the other. And CO isn't the best purge gas anyway. In fact, there are muffle-type heat-treating furnaces that use CO for fuel. It doesn't sound like something I'd fool with. Thankfully the concentration of CO2 in engine exhaust is quite high, and O2 content extremely low - so engine exhaust works reasonably well. Has the advantage of being HOT so it boils out any gasoline absorbed into rust scale etc, and trapped in pinch seams etc.. That sounds better. d8-) For gas tanks I generally either soldered or brazed repairs and fuel fittings |
#11
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:20:22 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Jul 11, 5:57Â*pm, Ignoramus24437 ignoramus24...@NOSPAM. 24437.invalid wrote: I have a 22 gallon (or so) fuel tank that originally had gasoline in it. I want to use it for diesel. I would like to drill it and install a through-hull fitting, which would be for the fuel return line. Ideally, I would like to braze the fitting in place also. My question is how do I drill it and braze, so that it would not explode. The tank has not had gasoline in it for a couple of weeks. Today, I recently set it up with the fuel cap open, turned it over so that the fuel fill hole pionts down, and set it out so that it would becmoe quite hot under the sun. Would it be correct to assume that after a few days I could purge it with compressed air, and then drill and braze it, without exploding? Would purging with argon be a good idea? i A long time ago, I took a course in Vacuum Tube Technology. I figured it would a last chance to learn about vacuum tubes. The course was taught by Renee Rogers who worked at Varian. And had nothing to do with ordinary vacuum tubes. Klystrons, BWO's, TWT's, multigun CRT's, Yes. Triodes No. But what I really learned was how Renee figured out what was causing production problems. You have a hypothesis and then you put numbers on it and see if it still could be true. So how much gasoline vapor do you think could be in the tank. The equivalent of a drop of gasoline? Two drops of gasoline? Can you smell any gasoline fumes? Then how much energy is in say two drops of gasoline? if it was combined with the optimum amount of air, how much energy would there be. Then if it were combined with 22 gallons of air? The flammability limits for 100 octane gasoline is 1.4 % at the lower limit and 7.6 % at the upper limit ( per Wiki ). I have not done the math, but my guess is that you have no problem. Dan My guess is you are PROBABLY right - but would I bet my life on it? Nope. There could be several times more gas than you calculated for, and when that gas evaporated out of the rust/scale holding it in the tank it could stratify, producing a pretty lethal 14:1 type mix at exactly the wrong place - producing a fairly serious whollop. Remember, gasoline containd THREE TIMES the energy per unit of mass as compared to TNT. (or close enough for our discussion) |
#12
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here.
I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them, had liquids in them, and got punished. In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any. If, say, it has an incredible high concentration of fuel vapors, then, purging the tank by something like 10x the volume of air (from a home vacuum cleaner or compressor for a few minutes), would leave, more or less, nothing as far as vapors are concerned. The volume of the tank is less than 4 CF, and running my 15 CFM compressor for just 5 minutes, would provide about 20 times the volume of air in the tank. i |
#13
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
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#14
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:43:27 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them, had liquids in them, and got punished. In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any. If, say, it has an incredible high concentration of fuel vapors, then, purging the tank by something like 10x the volume of air (from a home vacuum cleaner or compressor for a few minutes), would leave, more or less, nothing as far as vapors are concerned. The volume of the tank is less than 4 CF, and running my 15 CFM compressor for just 5 minutes, would provide about 20 times the volume of air in the tank. i Well why not take it out back, away from the house, light up your torch, tie it to a pole and wave it back and forth in front of the tank opening, during the heat of the day? That will prove your case, one way or another. Gunner -- Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head. |
#15
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
Ignoramus24437 wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. Go ahead and blow your fool head off. -- It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch. |
#16
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Ignoramus24437 wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. Go ahead and blow your fool head off. Dibs on the Lincoln welder!! Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion. I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning journey. http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl Gunner -- Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head. |
#17
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:43:27 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them, had liquids in them, and got punished. In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any. If, say, it has an incredible high concentration of fuel vapors, then, purging the tank by something like 10x the volume of air (from a home vacuum cleaner or compressor for a few minutes), would leave, more or less, nothing as far as vapors are concerned. The volume of the tank is less than 4 CF, and running my 15 CFM compressor for just 5 minutes, would provide about 20 times the volume of air in the tank. You're probably right. But, I'd use the suspenders and belt approach. No fuel plus no O2 = double safe. A garden hose from your car exhaust to the tank only take a couple minutes. Karl i |
#18
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
Ignoramus24437 fired this volley in
: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them, had liquids in them, and got punished. Maybe more mis-information than BS. Gasoline tanks are repaired or modified commercially every day, with complete safety. Empty, wash, dry, bake out, and purge with an inert substance. If you can't smell the gasoline, there's not enough present to form an explosive mixture. LLoyd |
#19
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
Ignoramus24437 wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them, had liquids in them, and got punished. In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any. If, say, it has an incredible high concentration of fuel vapors, then, purging the tank by something like 10x the volume of air (from a home vacuum cleaner or compressor for a few minutes), would leave, more or less, nothing as far as vapors are concerned. The volume of the tank is less than 4 CF, and running my 15 CFM compressor for just 5 minutes, would provide about 20 times the volume of air in the tank. Actualy the common danger of oxyacetylene welding or cutting on a tank is the potential for accumulating explosive mixtures from the torch itself. People have blown them selves up cutting on tanks that never contained any flammable material. -jim i |
#20
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Ignoramus24437 wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. Go ahead and blow your fool head off. Dibs on the Lincoln welder!! Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion. I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning journey. http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl Gunner You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was referring to. i |
#21
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On 2011-07-12, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus24437 fired this volley in : I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them, had liquids in them, and got punished. Maybe more mis-information than BS. Gasoline tanks are repaired or modified commercially every day, with complete safety. Empty, wash, dry, bake out, and purge with an inert substance. If you can't smell the gasoline, there's not enough present to form an explosive mixture. I agree with every sentence that you wrote. i |
#22
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459
wrote: On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Ignoramus24437 wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. Go ahead and blow your fool head off. Dibs on the Lincoln welder!! Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion. I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning journey. http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl Gunner You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was referring to. i Of course we did. Did you view the links I provided? Did I mention I have..had rather..a good friend who blew a lsmall chunk of a Ford pickup truck gas tank directly through his lower descending aorta and bled to death within a few seconds, while brazing up a hole in it and another who suffered 3rd degree burns and razed the garage to the ground, while doing something similar on a VW gas tank? Both of course were empty. Jack has had 4 skin grafts so far and he can talk pretty well these day. But hey...I guess they were simply victims of B/S and scare talk huh? Do as you wish Iggy. Frankly..while I like you a lot...Im getting tired of holding your hand and being told Im an idiot. So do as I suggested..fire up the torch (forget the long pole) and direct the flame into the gas tank. Better yet..look into the filler nozzle while doing so. You can get a really good look and see if its rusty in there. Really. Gunner -- Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head. |
#23
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459 wrote: On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Ignoramus24437 wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. Go ahead and blow your fool head off. Dibs on the Lincoln welder!! Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion. I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning journey. http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl Gunner You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was referring to. i Of course we did. Did you view the links I provided? Yes, they were all about tanks full of gasoline when they exploded. Did I mention I have..had rather..a good friend who blew a lsmall chunk of a Ford pickup truck gas tank directly through his lower descending aorta and bled to death within a few seconds, while brazing up a hole in it and another who suffered 3rd degree burns and razed the garage to the ground, while doing something similar on a VW gas tank? Both of course were empty. Jack has had 4 skin grafts so far and he can talk pretty well these day. But hey...I guess they were simply victims of B/S and scare talk huh? No, but like I said, they probably did not observe the precautions. Do as you wish Iggy. Frankly..while I like you a lot...Im getting tired of holding your hand and being told Im an idiot. So do as I suggested..fire up the torch (forget the long pole) and direct the flame into the gas tank. Better yet..look into the filler nozzle while doing so. You can get a really good look and see if its rusty in there. Really. I will do just that and will video tape it too i |
#24
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:43:27 -0500, Ignoramus24437
wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them, had liquids in them, and got punished. In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any. If, say, it has an incredible high concentration of fuel vapors, then, purging the tank by something like 10x the volume of air (from a home vacuum cleaner or compressor for a few minutes), would leave, more or less, nothing as far as vapors are concerned. The volume of the tank is less than 4 CF, and running my 15 CFM compressor for just 5 minutes, would provide about 20 times the volume of air in the tank. i I had to solder a couple holes in my little Gibson tractor tank. It holds about 1/2 gallon. The tank has been filled with gas for over 50 years. I washed it out with acetone, then soap and water. After drying it a few days I started to heat the tank to solder it. I saw what looked like maybe a little steam coming out of the filler. When I waved the flame at it it caught fire for a sec. No explosion though. So I think that all the years of soaking in gas left some varnish inside that gasified from the heat. Eric |
#25
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 11:59:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459
wrote: On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459 wrote: On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Ignoramus24437 wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. Go ahead and blow your fool head off. Dibs on the Lincoln welder!! Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion. I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning journey. http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl Gunner You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was referring to. i Of course we did. Did you view the links I provided? Yes, they were all about tanks full of gasoline when they exploded. So you are admitting to not having viewed any of the links. Pity. Did I mention I have..had rather..a good friend who blew a lsmall chunk of a Ford pickup truck gas tank directly through his lower descending aorta and bled to death within a few seconds, while brazing up a hole in it and another who suffered 3rd degree burns and razed the garage to the ground, while doing something similar on a VW gas tank? Both of course were empty. Jack has had 4 skin grafts so far and he can talk pretty well these day. But hey...I guess they were simply victims of B/S and scare talk huh? No, but like I said, they probably did not observe the precautions. Actually...they did. Not well enough...shrug.... Do as you wish Iggy. Frankly..while I like you a lot...Im getting tired of holding your hand and being told Im an idiot. So do as I suggested..fire up the torch (forget the long pole) and direct the flame into the gas tank. Better yet..look into the filler nozzle while doing so. You can get a really good look and see if its rusty in there. Really. I will do just that and will video tape it too i Good for you Lad! Ballsy fellow! Onward!!! Dibs on your SA-200 Gunner -- Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head. |
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
Ignoramus15459 wrote: On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Ignoramus24437 wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. Go ahead and blow your fool head off. Dibs on the Lincoln welder!! Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion. I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning journey. http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl Gunner You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was referring to. i Like I said, blow yourself up. I had a 30 gallon tank from a '73 Chevy Step Van blow up on me. It had been empty for over two years. It was full of water, but it jumped five feet in the air and sprayed hot water all over me and a neighbor. It peeled most of the crimped seam apart, and destroyed the tank -- It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch. |
#27
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m: It had been empty for over two years. It was full of water, but it jumped five feet in the air and sprayed hot water all over me and a neighbor. It peeled most of the crimped seam apart, and destroyed the tank -- Then, Michael, it wasn't gasoline fumes, it was welding gasses -- or.... if it was "full of water", how, exactly, did you get a volume of gas in there to explode? Could it have been steam pressure, which you inadvertently caused by trying to cut or weld on a part immersed in water? LLoyd |
#28
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in m: It had been empty for over two years. It was full of water, but it jumped five feet in the air and sprayed hot water all over me and a neighbor. It peeled most of the crimped seam apart, and destroyed the tank Then, Michael, it wasn't gasoline fumes, it was welding gasses -- or.... if it was "full of water", how, exactly, did you get a volume of gas in there to explode? Could it have been steam pressure, which you inadvertently caused by trying to cut or weld on a part immersed in water? It was on the neck. Just a few inches of metal that wasn't under water. It turned out the inside of the tank was quite rusty, which wasn't visible before it blew. I talked to a couple people who repaired tanks before I tried to repair it, and was assured that nothing could go wrong. They just stood there and scratched their heads after they saw the results. This was in a steel town, where professional welders and machine shops were thick as thieves. -- It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch. |
#29
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m: It was on the neck. Just a few inches of metal that wasn't under water. It turned out the inside of the tank was quite rusty, which wasn't visible before it blew. Well... "sitting on empty" and "empty, and open to the air" for two years are two different things. I assume (unless welding gasses were the culprit) that there had not been adequate ventilation of the tank. I've modified numerous "pulled from service" gasoline and propane tanks (of course, emptied, dried, purged, and filled with inert stuff before work), and not had any even _minor_ malfunctions. And usually, all that folderol takes longer than the modifications do. I deal with a surprisingly high-tech welding/cutting shop in our little town of 2000 that welds repairs on RV gas tanks as a regular part of their business, and they don't have those problems, either. If it's gasses that are your problem, a _slightly_ oxidizing flame is your friend -- no free fuel, either in the form of gas or air-suspended particulate carbon, gets into the tank by accident. As part of my practice on propane tanks, I also wash out the mercaptan, which _can_ form an explosive mixture. (household lye converts it to other stuff which can be washed out with water) LLoyd |
#30
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in m: It was on the neck. Just a few inches of metal that wasn't under water. It turned out the inside of the tank was quite rusty, which wasn't visible before it blew. Well... "sitting on empty" and "empty, and open to the air" for two years are two different things. Empty, with no gas cap for over two years. also, there was a seven inch long stress crack in the bottom that would leak, until there was less than a gallon in the tank over a weekend. That was why the truck sat unused for over four years, and a little over two with no gas cap. I took the locking cap for another truck I owned. I assume (unless welding gasses were the culprit) that there had not been adequate ventilation of the tank. The only thing available to work with was a cheap SolidOx torch, with a small bottle of propane. I've modified numerous "pulled from service" gasoline and propane tanks (of course, emptied, dried, purged, and filled with inert stuff before work), and not had any even _minor_ malfunctions. And usually, all that folderol takes longer than the modifications do. I deal with a surprisingly high-tech welding/cutting shop in our little town of 2000 that welds repairs on RV gas tanks as a regular part of their business, and they don't have those problems, either. If it's gasses that are your problem, a _slightly_ oxidizing flame is your friend -- no free fuel, either in the form of gas or air-suspended particulate carbon, gets into the tank by accident. As part of my practice on propane tanks, I also wash out the mercaptan, which _can_ form an explosive mixture. (household lye converts it to other stuff which can be washed out with water) LLoyd -- It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch. |
#31
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
Gunner Asch writes:
Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion. I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning journey. http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl We covered such in firefighting class when I worked on a pipeline. You use a different tactic on BLEVE's: a) Recognize BLEVE b) $^%&%$& RUN ..... We welded tanks/pipelines all the time. 1) Jethero shoots a hole in same. 2) Pound in rubber plug. 3) Let dry {~week} 4) Ensure either good line rate, or sufficent tank fill above weld. [~2 ft comes to mind; less if Diesel than gas.] 5) Lay patch atop plug {can't recall size but say 8" dia.] 6) Weld in place. Of course, these were slightly larger than the average car's tank; say 60' diameter and 40' tall. And there was NO problem welding to a wall of say 0.375" thick. -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
#32
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On 2011-07-12, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in m: It was on the neck. Just a few inches of metal that wasn't under water. It turned out the inside of the tank was quite rusty, which wasn't visible before it blew. Well... "sitting on empty" and "empty, and open to the air" for two years are two different things. Exactly. The tank may have had little usable fuel, but was closed and trapped the remainder and the fumes. In my case, the tank is dry, the inlet is open, and I turned the tank over so that it sits outside, under the sun, with the open inlet pointing down. i |
#33
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
Ignoramus24437 wrote:
I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them, had liquids in them, and got punished. In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any. I'd love to read about your explosion in the paper and all, but vapors are exactly what you need to be worried about, they're what explodes, not the liquid itself. |
#34
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On 2011-07-13, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus24437 wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. I think that people whose tanks exploded, did nothing to purge them, had liquids in them, and got punished. In my case, the tank is completely free of liquids (which dried out days ago) and the only thing that it has is vapors, if any. I'd love to read about your explosion in the paper and all, but vapors are exactly what you need to be worried about, they're what explodes, not the liquid itself. Here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luubA9ELfwY i |
#35
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
You're quite the egomaniac.. it sounded as though there was a child standing
nearby, who could've been injured and/or disfigured if you had been wrong, or if the torch had malfunctioned. I've had several types of torches nearly go out and suddenly relight at full force when the tip is near a closed pocket or in a corner and then withdrawn.. pathetic -- WB .......... "Ignoramus23641" wrote in message ... Here's the |
#36
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On 2011-07-14, Wild_Bill wrote:
You're quite the egomaniac.. it sounded as though there was a child standing nearby, who could've been injured and/or disfigured if you had been wrong, or if the torch had malfunctioned. I've had several types of torches nearly go out and suddenly relight at full force when the tip is near a closed pocket or in a corner and then withdrawn.. Hint: the video was not the first time I tried it. i pathetic |
#37
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
Hint: I expected that and it doesn't change the situation.
-- WB .......... "Ignoramus27403" wrote in message ... On 2011-07-14, Wild_Bill wrote: You're quite the egomaniac.. it sounded as though there was a child standing nearby, who could've been injured and/or disfigured if you had been wrong, or if the torch had malfunctioned. I've had several types of torches nearly go out and suddenly relight at full force when the tip is near a closed pocket or in a corner and then withdrawn.. Hint: the video was not the first time I tried it. i pathetic |
#38
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:48:30 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 11:59:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459 wrote: On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:39 -0500, Ignoramus15459 wrote: On 2011-07-12, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Ignoramus24437 wrote: I sense a little bit of B/S and scare talk here. Go ahead and blow your fool head off. Dibs on the Lincoln welder!! Iggy has evidently never seen a gasoline vapor explosion. I hope he never does. But YouTube may be of assistance in his learning journey. http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ine+vapor+expl Gunner You two gave the exact example of "B/S and scare talk" that I was referring to. i Of course we did. Did you view the links I provided? Yes, they were all about tanks full of gasoline when they exploded. So you are admitting to not having viewed any of the links. Pity. Did I mention I have..had rather..a good friend who blew a lsmall chunk of a Ford pickup truck gas tank directly through his lower descending aorta and bled to death within a few seconds, while brazing up a hole in it and another who suffered 3rd degree burns and razed the garage to the ground, while doing something similar on a VW gas tank? Both of course were empty. Jack has had 4 skin grafts so far and he can talk pretty well these day. But hey...I guess they were simply victims of B/S and scare talk huh? No, but like I said, they probably did not observe the precautions. Actually...they did. Not well enough...shrug.... Do as you wish Iggy. Frankly..while I like you a lot...Im getting tired of holding your hand and being told Im an idiot. So do as I suggested..fire up the torch (forget the long pole) and direct the flame into the gas tank. Better yet..look into the filler nozzle while doing so. You can get a really good look and see if its rusty in there. Really. I will do just that and will video tape it too i Good for you Lad! Ballsy fellow! Onward!!! Dibs on your SA-200 Gunner If he's pointed the right direction you might not even need to have it delivered!!! Anyone who cuts or welds on a container that has EVER contained gosoline or other flamables without taking adequate precautions is a fool and an idiot. And "adequate" does not mean "barely adequate", or "should be good enough". |
#39
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:22:09 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in om: It had been empty for over two years. It was full of water, but it jumped five feet in the air and sprayed hot water all over me and a neighbor. It peeled most of the crimped seam apart, and destroyed the tank -- Then, Michael, it wasn't gasoline fumes, it was welding gasses -- or.... if it was "full of water", how, exactly, did you get a volume of gas in there to explode? Could it have been steam pressure, which you inadvertently caused by trying to cut or weld on a part immersed in water? LLoyd Nope - it was gasoline vapour. Had it happen to a friend on his 50's ford tank. He'd flushed it with water, let it sit in the sun, and filled it with water again - stood it against the shop wall and started to braze it. It heaved and buckled and knocked him on his ass on the other side of the driveway. They figured out there was gasoline "locked in" to the rust where he was doing the repair - perhaps 1/10 of a teaspoonfull at the very most - and when he heated it, the rust was reduced to iron and oxygen - which mixed with the gasoline with extremely un-expected and violent results. DON'T DO IT. If the tank had been full of CO2, Nitrogen, or Argon (I prefer CO2), the oxygen and gasoline vapours would have dissipated into the CO2, instead of being trapped and concentrated - and combustion would have been IMPOSSIBLE. |
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Drilling and brazing a fuel tank
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:37:57 -0500, Ignoramus15459
wrote: On 2011-07-12, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in m: It was on the neck. Just a few inches of metal that wasn't under water. It turned out the inside of the tank was quite rusty, which wasn't visible before it blew. Well... "sitting on empty" and "empty, and open to the air" for two years are two different things. Exactly. The tank may have had little usable fuel, but was closed and trapped the remainder and the fumes. In my case, the tank is dry, the inlet is open, and I turned the tank over so that it sits outside, under the sun, with the open inlet pointing down. i Trust me Iggy - it is STILL a potential bomb. What does a CO2 fire extinguisher refil cost????? Fill the tank with a shot of CO2 untill you see it flowing out the top (as a fog). Let it sit, filler up, for a moment, then add a bit more. Weld with filler up, and new fitting snugly in the hole, and plugged so the CO2 does not all flow out through the fitting as you weld/braze/solder.. If the job takes very long - give it another shot part way through - and you can GUARANTEE you will be here, and in one piece, the next day.. REmember, CO2 is almost twice as dense as air - but not NEARLY as dense as you if you weld that tank without taking "proper" precautions. |
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