Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian? d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On 06/01/2011 08:33 AM, wrote:
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

Or do you exemplify the fact that fundamentalist thinkers, whether
liberal or conservative, tend to oversimplify issues in their rush to
feel superior to everyone else?

When I'm with my conservative buddies I'm a wimpy bleeding heart
dangerous liberal.

When I'm with my liberal buddies I'm a knife-in-the-teeth, ranting,
dangerous conservative.

From which I conclude two things:

(A) I'm balanced.
(B) They're not.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

In article
,
" wrote:
I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?

You are an ignorant person who assumes, apparently.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Jun 1, 11:52*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...
I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian? d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Self-confidence

On Jun 1, 11:33*am, "
wrote:
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

I would assume that your assumptions are incorrect.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Jun 1, 11:52 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...
I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would
ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian?
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Self-confidence

Self-delusion.

--
Ed Huntress

wrote in message
...

Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?



What gives here? You're reading posts from some liberals who are interested
in metalworking. What's so weird about that?

I'm suspecting that you're disingenuously trying to stir up some trouble by
trolling while trying not to look like you are.

Best regards,
Tom
who happens to be liberal, is interested in metalworking, and whose
machinery doesn't give a damn about my politics (why do you?)

On Jun 1, 12:28*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

...
On Jun 1, 11:52 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

...
I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would
ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian?
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress
Self-confidence

Self-delusion.

--
Ed Huntress

The socially pernicious self-delusion of liberals is denying that
others can acquire the life skills and self reliance which they
haven't bothered to learn.

I read an analysis of the demographics of reality show viewers which
observed that conservatives like Dancing With the Stars etc because it
shows the contestants succeeding by their own efforts, while liberals
preferred to feel superior to dysfunctional people.

Libertarians may have interesting parties ("I thought they said
libertine party") but I can't agree with their conclusions.

jsw

On Jun 1, 12:50*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The socially pernicious self-delusion of liberals is denying that
others can acquire the life skills and self reliance which they
haven't bothered to learn.

What in the world are you talking about?

wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

Stereotypes are a powerful propaganda tool for warping minds. Even if most
choreographers really are liberal, the propaganda comes from assigning
importance to this with the implication that this says something about the
manliness of the liberal view. The current right wing who propagate stuff
like this are far more dangerous than the current left.

As for "replicable measurments", my occupation has mostly involved improving
metrology for the semiconductor industry down to 0.001 nanometers (i.e.
subatomic level) in some cases.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

I read an analysis of the demographics of reality show viewers which
observed that conservatives like Dancing With the Stars etc because it
shows the contestants succeeding by their own efforts, while liberals
preferred to feel superior to dysfunctional people.

I've never seen this show
so I have no way to tell who would watch
or why.

But I thought it had been established by the OP
as a matter of empirical fact
that dancers were all liberals.

Is that not so?

On Jun 1, 9:50*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The socially pernicious self-delusion of liberals is denying that
others can acquire the life skills and self reliance which they
haven't bothered to learn.

I read an analysis of the demographics of reality show viewers which
observed that conservatives like Dancing With the Stars etc because it
shows the contestants succeeding by their own efforts, while liberals
preferred to feel superior to dysfunctional people.

Rush says that most TV formats are shrinking, but football is growing.
He attributes this to the fact that football is unscripted, and so
cannot be liberal propaganda.

My favorite TV show is "The First 48", which has no liberal
propaganda. I don't know how much longer the TV industry can tolerate
that TV show without liberal propaganda every few seconds.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Jun 1, 12:28 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

...
On Jun 1, 11:52 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

...
I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would
ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian?
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress
Self-confidence

Self-delusion.

--
Ed Huntress

The socially pernicious self-delusion of liberals is denying that
others can acquire the life skills and self reliance which they
haven't bothered to learn.

Oh, horse manure. To lean left or right is one thing; a product of one's
attitudes, experiences, and so on, and part of the normal distribution of
human thinking and behavior. But to be ideologically liberal or conservative
is a kind of abdication of thinking about complexities in the world.

People adopt strong ideological stances as a compensation, a foil against a
world that they find too confusing, frustrating, or threatening, unless they
have an ideological shield to protect themselves from argument or the angst
that those people feel as a result of uncertaintly. Adopting an ideological
shield is their escape from uncertainty.

Once you have that shield around you, you can devote yourself to belittling
and demonizing the other side, which further pumps up your own self-esteem
and which allows you to dehumanize those who don't agree with you. You know
what I'm talking about.


I read an analysis of the demographics of reality show viewers which
observed that conservatives like Dancing With the Stars etc because it
shows the contestants succeeding by their own efforts, while liberals
preferred to feel superior to dysfunctional people.

Watching Dancing With the Stars is a good indication that you're ready for
bread and circuses. Republicans, if not conservatives (the distinction
wasn't surveyed) are typically 20% - 25% more likely than Democrats to watch
pro sports -- another passive activity that involves watching someone *else*
do something while you sit on your ass.


Libertarians may have interesting parties ("I thought they said
libertine party") but I can't agree with their conclusions.

That's a good sign. g

--
Ed Huntress

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Jun 1, 12:50 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The socially pernicious self-delusion of liberals is denying that
others can acquire the life skills and self reliance which they
haven't bothered to learn.

What in the world are you talking about?

His new bong.

--

On 2011-06-01, rangerssuck wrote:
On Jun 1, 12:50?pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The socially pernicious self-delusion of liberals is denying that
others can acquire the life skills and self reliance which they
haven't bothered to learn.

What in the world are you talking about?

I would like to question Jim's assumption and ask him where did he get
this idea, that liberals are not as self reliant.

I would, personally, think that anyone with enough brains to think
about political questions, and arrive at a liberal, or some other well
thought out worldview, would generally be sufficiently smart to be
self reliant.

Though some would call me a liberal, I am personally, for example,
able to take care of myself and my family and am quite self reliant,
spending well below my income.

I often hear a stereotype that "liberals are mooches of society" and
how "liberals are unable to take careof themselves" and so on.

Based on everything I know, such as this Pew report:

http://people-press.org/files/legacy-pdf/242.pdf

liberals are generally well to do as far as incomes are concerned.

I think that this stereotype of liberals being social leecges, was
invented as an intimidation tool, so that people would be afraid to
identify themselves as liberals.

Personally, I do not identify myself as being liberal, because my
opinions come from analysis of issues, and not from ideology. My
thoughts align with liberals or conservatives purely by accident and
not because I source my opinions from a particular ideologue.

If anything, the median liberal is more affluent than a median
"conservative".

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Com...ty-of-the-rich

This is perfectly explainable, since a large number of self
identifying "social conservatives" are basically poor people.

i

On 6/1/2011 8:52 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian? d8-)


That has to do with man's instinct to follow others. Anyone that adopts
a specific ideology is by definition a "follower". When someone accepts
an ideology as their own they have chosen a path or a dogma that they
want to follow. This is the natural behavior of most people. Only a
small percentage of the population does not act this way. People like
me, we call those people mavericks.

It's also a mistake to assume things about broad groups of people. You
need to do some research first. For example, I don't know if most
machinists are conservative or not without looking at polling data. You
can guess, but you'll probably be wrong most of the time. On the other
hand, research shows who and where conservatives are found and what kind
of work most of them do. Same with liberals. So you can find out the
answers to a lot of questions about work and political ideology if you
want to look into it.



Hawke

On 6/1/2011 10:05 AM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Jun 1, 12:50 pm, Jim wrote:

The socially pernicious self-delusion of liberals is denying that
others can acquire the life skills and self reliance which they
haven't bothered to learn.

What in the world are you talking about?


Like many conservatives he's living with a lot of delusions. One happens
to be that only conservatives work hard or are self reliant. Another
delusion is that conservatives are somehow superior to everyone else. We
all know that is crazy thinking because every ignorant, red-neck, you
find is a conservative and just as many conservatives receive benefits
from government as anyone else. But the delusions persist. It's like
Americans' belief that America is better at everything than the rest of
the world when that is factually untrue.

Hawke

On 6/1/2011 8:58 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 06/01/2011 08:33 AM, wrote:
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

Or do you exemplify the fact that fundamentalist thinkers, whether
liberal or conservative, tend to oversimplify issues in their rush to
feel superior to everyone else?

When I'm with my conservative buddies I'm a wimpy bleeding heart
dangerous liberal.

When I'm with my liberal buddies I'm a knife-in-the-teeth, ranting,
dangerous conservative.

From which I conclude two things:

(A) I'm balanced.
(B) They're not.


I have the same thing happen to me frequently. Whenever I'm around a
bunch of real liberals they think I'm really conservative, but when I'm
around conservatives they think I'm a flaming liberal. When you are a
real liberal or conservative that doesn't happen. You fit in your group
and your anathema to the other. It used to be that moderates were the
majority. Now it seems middle of the roaders are hard to find.

Hawke

On Jun 1, 10:58*am, Tim Wescott wrote:
(A) *I'm balanced.
(B) *They're not.

Or, as my brother says: "You need the nuts on both sides to know where
the middle is".

wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

Generally, conservatives oftentimes turn out be closet homosexuals.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.

But, hot chips oftentimes have the effect of making Machinists dance.

I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

And why would that be....was it something Limbaugh said ?


But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.


Actually, it's how I earn my living

What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

IMO most of the liberal posts are in direct response to something originally
posted by what is really only a small group of right wing nut jobs who tend
to troll here on a regular basis....

Then again, a lot depends on how you define "Liberalism"...

Here's the short list, from Wiki:

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom")[1] is the belief in the
importance of liberty and equal rights.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of
views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most
liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutionalism, liberal
democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, free trade,
and the freedom of religion.[3][4][5][6][7

--

"What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by
"Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in
his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned
with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members
demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal"
they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new
ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the
people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their
civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break
through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if
that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a
"Liberal."
John F. Kennedy--Acceptance Speech of the New York
Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

"Tom Dacon" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?



What gives here? You're reading posts from some liberals who are
interested in metalworking. What's so weird about that?

Woodworkers are liberal (Andy Rooney) -- nature'n'****...
Metalworkers are conservative -- 3,000 F smelting'n'****....

Both, however, seem to have some bloodlust for game hunting, and mounting
the heads in their reception areas.
Whazzup wit dat?

We should be mounting the heads of our politicians and multi-national CEO's
on the walls of our reception areas.
--
EA



I'm suspecting that you're disingenuously trying to stir up some trouble
by trolling while trying not to look like you are.

Best regards,
Tom
who happens to be liberal, is interested in metalworking, and whose
machinery doesn't give a damn about my politics (why do you?)

On 06/01/2011 10:33 AM, wrote:
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

Although some of my friends might consider me a liberal, I have a mix of
opinions, some that sound more liberal, some that sound more
conservative. I certainly don't come here for political fodder, or to
argue anything other than how best to make some kind of widget.

Jon

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:59:00 -0700 (PDT), Brian Rosenthal
wrote:

On Jun 1, 10:58*am, Tim Wescott wrote:
(A) *I'm balanced.
(B) *They're not.

Or, as my brother says: "You need the nuts on both sides to know where
the middle is".
Having nuts on both sides applies to more than politics.

wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

A better question might be :What percentage of machinists are
Capitalists?" The difference exists between those that believe in
wealth creation and those that believe in wealth redistribution.
Obviously, wealth redistributionists arrogantly view wealth
creationists with distain and have no idea where wealth comes
from...they just know that they want to take it away from those that
make it.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:08:27 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

On 06/01/2011 10:33 AM, wrote:
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

Although some of my friends might consider me a liberal, I have a mix of
opinions, some that sound more liberal, some that sound more
conservative. I certainly don't come here for political fodder, or to
argue anything other than how best to make some kind of widget.

Jon

Im rather socially liberal. Really. Those of you who read my posts
should be quite aware of this.

However..Im politically conservative.

Gunner

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.

Im rather socially liberal. Really. Those of you who read my posts
should be quite aware of this.

However..Im politically conservative.

Gunner


That is libertarian philosophy, wanting less gov intervention both
morally AND financially. Most engineers think that way, but are forced
to vote with the conservatives to counter the extremes of liberal
domination of society.


When we have a gov at the peak of the Laffer curve, bringing in $2T
and spending $4T, and there are people who still want even more
collectivism, then the liberals have identified themselves.

There seem, to be a few men with enough left brain function to cut
metal, and that are still are so dominated by right brain activity to
the point of religious faith in collectivism, and they post flames on
rec.crafts.metalworking.

It is an anomaly.

Tom Gardner wrote:


wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

A better question might be :What percentage of machinists are
Capitalists?" The difference exists between those that believe in
wealth creation and those that believe in wealth redistribution.
Obviously, wealth redistributionists arrogantly view wealth
creationists with distain and have no idea where wealth comes
from...they just know that they want to take it away from those that
make it.

Even socialists are capitalists. Without capital, there wouldn't be anything
but flowers and trees and caves and raw meat.

It's just that under socialism, the rulers hold all the capital.

Hope This Helps!
Rich

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:


wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

A better question might be :What percentage of machinists are
Capitalists?" The difference exists between those that believe in
wealth creation and those that believe in wealth redistribution.
Obviously, wealth redistributionists arrogantly view wealth
creationists with distain and have no idea where wealth comes
from...they just know that they want to take it away from those
that
make it.

Even socialists are capitalists. Without capital, there wouldn't be
anything
but flowers and trees and caves and raw meat.

It's just that under socialism, the rulers hold all the capital.

Hope This Helps!
Rich


I don't usually like raw meat, I prefer rare to
medium-rare...depending on the cut. My latest was a six-bone Prime
Rib Roast for Memorial day. Roasted on a very hot charcoal spit to
get that wonderful crust on the outside yet rare inside. It was
perfect! ...bastage relatives didn't leave any leftovers.

On 6/1/2011 10:52 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian? d8-)

Do you believe that people who can think must therefore be authoritarian?

Authoritarian means, among other things, believing that you have the
right to think for others. I don't happen to need or want that.

David

wrote in message
...

Im rather socially liberal. Really. Those of you who read my posts
should be quite aware of this.

However..Im politically conservative.

Gunner


That is libertarian philosophy, wanting less gov intervention both
morally AND financially. Most engineers think that way, but are forced
to vote with the conservatives to counter the extremes of liberal
domination of society.

Gunner's been advertised as a PE, so I guess he fits your model. Except when
it comes to bailing HIS ass out.

"David R. Birch" wrote in message
...
On 6/1/2011 10:52 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would
ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian?
d8-)

Do you believe that people who can think must therefore be authoritarian?

Nope. Nor do they believe in the market tyrrany that ideological
libertarians would impose, in which poor people are at the whim and mercy of
handouts for medical care, and in which banksters run the world by
controlling all of the money, with no restrictions on monopoly or collusion
among them. Only those who could afford it would get an education
("principle" 2.8 of the platform). Those are among the mindless
reductionisms that the Libertarian Party platform provides for, if you read
it with a critical eye.

That's where thinking comes in. Libertarianism can be a mindless ideology
like all other ideologies. In the case of libertarianism, the mindlessness
results in this, inevitably: It takes power away from democratically elected
government and turns it over to money, in the form of monopolies, cartels,
and oligopolies. Astute observers have recognized this since the time of
Adam Smith.

Now, that's libertarianism as an ideology. Conservatism, liberalism, and any
other ideology you can think of has equally disastrous failings.

Most people who call themselves conservative, or liberal, or libertarian do
not really buy into the ideologies. Their postures most often reflect an
attitude and a leaning. On a scale, they lie somewhere between dead center
and the ideological extreme, and the closer they are to the true center of
political and economic thought they are, the more thoughtful and insightful
they're likely to be.

There's nothing wrong with leanings and attitudes. That diversity of
persepective and opinion is essential to a democratic society if it is to
avoid falling into a static and entropic state. Further, as I've said many
times, most Americans, including myself, have a greater or lesser streak of
libertarian attitude. But not ideology. That's for the people who can't deal
with the anxiety and challenge of the real, and very messy, world, including
contradictory facts and ideas that are equally true.


Authoritarian means, among other things, believing that you have the right
to think for others. I don't happen to need or want that.

Hardly anyone does.

--
Ed Huntress


David

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:


wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

A better question might be :What percentage of machinists are
Capitalists?" The difference exists between those that believe in
wealth creation and those that believe in wealth redistribution.
Obviously, wealth redistributionists arrogantly view wealth
creationists with distain and have no idea where wealth comes
from...they just know that they want to take it away from those that
make it.

Even socialists are capitalists. Without capital, there wouldn't be
anything
but flowers and trees and caves and raw meat.

It's just that under socialism, the rulers hold all the capital.


Excepting for counterfeit, the only way new money can be created is through
the constant expansion of indebtedness.

And IMO way too many folks today seem to be confusing "creation of wealth"
with "accumulation of wealth"--most of whom also conveniently ignore that in
this context, "accumulation" holds basically the same meaning as
"redistribution"

--Troll.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Steel, Stainless, Titanium:
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : Guaranteed Uncertified Welding!
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

"ATP" wrote in message
...


Gunner's been advertised as a PE,


NO

He's committed fraud by advertising his business as such.


so I guess he fits your model. Except when it comes to bailing HIS ass
out.

On 6/1/2011 6:05 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

A better question might be :What percentage of machinists are
Capitalists?" The difference exists between those that believe in
wealth creation and those that believe in wealth redistribution.
Obviously, wealth redistributionists arrogantly view wealth
creationists with distain and have no idea where wealth comes
from...they just know that they want to take it away from those that
make it.




Not at all. It's just that some people don't see the country as just a
bunch of individuals going around doing whatever they please and without
a concern about anything or anybody else.

People not so narrow minded as you understand that it means something to
be a citizen in a democratic country. There is a lot more to being an
American citizen than simply worrying about yourself. The problem is
people like you don't understand that there are bigger things than just
your selfish individual wants. Some people actually care about the
country and not just their own interests.

Those people who do care about the country understand that there needs
to be order. There needs to be rules. There needs to be common
obligations between the people and the government, which they created to
make their lives better, not to tell them what to do.

In a society there are mutual obligations. People like you don't want to
be obligated to anyone or anything. All you think about is yourself. But
being a citizen means you owe something to your country and to your
fellow citizens. We work as a team. We contribute to a general fund to
help the public good. Those with more are asked to give more. They got
the most from America so they have to contribute the most. It's a social
contract.

Your type only wants to take what the country gives but don't want to
pay your fair share. We know your type. That's why we have the IRS and
the police because we know you won't meet your obligations unless you
are forced to. Fortunately, you people are a minority of Americans, and
are not like most of us who don't mind putting in because it's worth it
to live here. You're the capitalists.

Hawke

On 6/1/2011 11:22 PM, Rich Grise wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:


wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

A better question might be :What percentage of machinists are
Capitalists?" The difference exists between those that believe in
wealth creation and those that believe in wealth redistribution.
Obviously, wealth redistributionists arrogantly view wealth
creationists with distain and have no idea where wealth comes
from...they just know that they want to take it away from those that
make it.

Even socialists are capitalists. Without capital, there wouldn't be anything
but flowers and trees and caves and raw meat.

It's just that under socialism, the rulers hold all the capital.

Hope This Helps!
Rich


Tell us some of the socialist countries where the rulers hold all the
capital.

Hawke

On 6/2/2011 6:09 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
"David R. wrote in message
...
On 6/1/2011 10:52 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would
ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian?
d8-)

Do you believe that people who can think must therefore be authoritarian?

Nope. Nor do they believe in the market tyrrany that ideological
libertarians would impose, in which poor people are at the whim and mercy of
handouts for medical care, and in which banksters run the world by
controlling all of the money, with no restrictions on monopoly or collusion
among them. Only those who could afford it would get an education
("principle" 2.8 of the platform). Those are among the mindless
reductionisms that the Libertarian Party platform provides for, if you read
it with a critical eye.

That's where thinking comes in. Libertarianism can be a mindless ideology
like all other ideologies. In the case of libertarianism, the mindlessness
results in this, inevitably: It takes power away from democratically elected
government and turns it over to money, in the form of monopolies, cartels,
and oligopolies. Astute observers have recognized this since the time of
Adam Smith.

Now, that's libertarianism as an ideology. Conservatism, liberalism, and any
other ideology you can think of has equally disastrous failings.

You oversimplify. That's libertarian right. Just as there are
authoritarian left and right, so there are also two sides to
libertarianism.

Most people who call themselves conservative, or liberal, or libertarian do
not really buy into the ideologies. Their postures most often reflect an
attitude and a leaning. On a scale, they lie somewhere between dead center
and the ideological extreme, and the closer they are to the true center of
political and economic thought they are, the more thoughtful and insightful
they're likely to be.

There's nothing wrong with leanings and attitudes. That diversity of
persepective and opinion is essential to a democratic society if it is to
avoid falling into a static and entropic state. Further, as I've said many
times, most Americans, including myself, have a greater or lesser streak of
libertarian attitude. But not ideology. That's for the people who can't deal
with the anxiety and challenge of the real, and very messy, world, including
contradictory facts and ideas that are equally true.


Authoritarian means, among other things, believing that you have the right
to think for others. I don't happen to need or want that.

Hardly anyone does.

Yet the authoritarian left and right seem to need to do that for
everyone. And they do it so poorly!

David

"David R. Birch" wrote in message
...
On 6/2/2011 6:09 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
"David R. wrote in message
...
On 6/1/2011 10:52 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would
ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian?
d8-)

Do you believe that people who can think must therefore be
authoritarian?

Nope. Nor do they believe in the market tyrrany that ideological
libertarians would impose, in which poor people are at the whim and mercy
of
handouts for medical care, and in which banksters run the world by
controlling all of the money, with no restrictions on monopoly or
collusion
among them. Only those who could afford it would get an education
("principle" 2.8 of the platform). Those are among the mindless
reductionisms that the Libertarian Party platform provides for, if you
read
it with a critical eye.

That's where thinking comes in. Libertarianism can be a mindless ideology
like all other ideologies. In the case of libertarianism, the
mindlessness
results in this, inevitably: It takes power away from democratically
elected
government and turns it over to money, in the form of monopolies,
cartels,
and oligopolies. Astute observers have recognized this since the time of
Adam Smith.

Now, that's libertarianism as an ideology. Conservatism, liberalism, and
any
other ideology you can think of has equally disastrous failings.

You oversimplify. That's libertarian right. Just as there are
authoritarian left and right, so there are also two sides to
libertarianism.

Well, you may be just the guy to clear up something for the rest of us.
You're suggesting that there is a side to libertarianism other than
"libertarian right." I was basing the words above on the Libertarian Party
platform, which says, among other things:

"The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect
property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which
voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute
wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society."
(principle 2.0)

"We oppose all controls on wages, prices, rents, profits, production, and
interest rates. We advocate the repeal of all laws banning or restricting
the advertising of prices, products, or services. We oppose all violations
of the right to private property, liberty of contract, and freedom of
trade." (principle 2.1)

That's an invitation to monopoly and collusion to control markets, to
predatory pricing to strangle new market entrants, etc. Someone at the Party
office got carried away with the music of their words and didn't think about
what they mean. They forgot about Standard Oil, the Steel Trust, and other
monopolies of the late 19th century, and how they came about. They also
forgot about quack doctors and snake oil drug salesmen.

Now, does your flavor of libertarianism (what do you call it, "liberal
libertarian"?) hold to those principles, too? And if not, what is it about
your position that can be called "libertarian"?


Most people who call themselves conservative, or liberal, or libertarian
do
not really buy into the ideologies. Their postures most often reflect an
attitude and a leaning. On a scale, they lie somewhere between dead
center
and the ideological extreme, and the closer they are to the true center
of
political and economic thought they are, the more thoughtful and
insightful
they're likely to be.

There's nothing wrong with leanings and attitudes. That diversity of
persepective and opinion is essential to a democratic society if it is to
avoid falling into a static and entropic state. Further, as I've said
many
times, most Americans, including myself, have a greater or lesser streak
of
libertarian attitude. But not ideology. That's for the people who can't
deal
with the anxiety and challenge of the real, and very messy, world,
including
contradictory facts and ideas that are equally true.


Authoritarian means, among other things, believing that you have the
right
to think for others. I don't happen to need or want that.

Hardly anyone does.

Yet the authoritarian left and right seem to need to do that for everyone.
And they do it so poorly!

One of the two basic strains of conservatism in America is highly
authoritarian ("law and order" conservatives -- the traditional type, who
have morphed into what we now call "social conservatives."). The other is
what's being called "libertarian" today. What they are, in their pure form,
is what Murray Rothbard called "anarcho-capitalists." That was a term of
approval by Rothbard, by the way, and it was in use for 12 or 15 years
before the invention of modern "libertarianism" and the Libertarian Party.

Now, how do you differ from that conservative type of libertarian? Do you
somehow restrict commerce or contracts to differentiate yourself from the
conservatives? Are there other differences between you and them?

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"David R. Birch" wrote in message
...
On 6/2/2011 6:09 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
"David R. wrote in message
...
On 6/1/2011 10:52 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
aesthetics, are dominated by liberals.
Generally, occupations, where the final arbiter of truth is
replicable
measurements, are dominated by conservatives.

I would assume that most dance choreographers are liberal.
I would assume that most machinists are conservative.

But here on rec.crafts.metalworking, I am reading some posts by
liberals who are interested in metalworking.
What gives here?
Are liberals just looking for forums to argue?

I think the real question is why people who supposedly can think would
ever
be ideologically conservative or liberal? Or, especially, libertarian?
d8-)

Do you believe that people who can think must therefore be
authoritarian?

Nope. Nor do they believe in the market tyrrany that ideological
libertarians would impose, in which poor people are at the whim and
mercy of
handouts for medical care, and in which banksters run the world by
controlling all of the money, with no restrictions on monopoly or
collusion
among them. Only those who could afford it would get an education
("principle" 2.8 of the platform). Those are among the mindless
reductionisms that the Libertarian Party platform provides for, if you
read
it with a critical eye.

That's where thinking comes in. Libertarianism can be a mindless
ideology
like all other ideologies. In the case of libertarianism, the
mindlessness
results in this, inevitably: It takes power away from democratically
elected
government and turns it over to money, in the form of monopolies,
cartels,
and oligopolies. Astute observers have recognized this since the time of
Adam Smith.

Now, that's libertarianism as an ideology. Conservatism, liberalism, and
any
other ideology you can think of has equally disastrous failings.

You oversimplify. That's libertarian right. Just as there are
authoritarian left and right, so there are also two sides to
libertarianism.

Well, you may be just the guy to clear up something for the rest of us.
You're suggesting that there is a side to libertarianism other than
"libertarian right." I was basing the words above on the Libertarian Party
platform, which says, among other things:

"The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect
property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in
which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to
redistribute wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free
society." (principle 2.0)

"We oppose all controls on wages, prices, rents, profits, production, and
interest rates. We advocate the repeal of all laws banning or restricting
the advertising of prices, products, or services. We oppose all violations
of the right to private property, liberty of contract, and freedom of
trade." (principle 2.1)

That's an invitation to monopoly and collusion to control markets, to
predatory pricing to strangle new market entrants, etc. Someone at the
Party office got carried away with the music of their words and didn't
think about what they mean. They forgot about Standard Oil, the Steel
Trust, and other monopolies of the late 19th century, and how they came
about. They also forgot about quack doctors and snake oil drug salesmen.

Now, does your flavor of libertarianism (what do you call it, "liberal
libertarian"?) hold to those principles, too? And if not, what is it about
your position that can be called "libertarian"?


Most people who call themselves conservative, or liberal, or libertarian
do
not really buy into the ideologies. Their postures most often reflect an
attitude and a leaning. On a scale, they lie somewhere between dead
center
and the ideological extreme, and the closer they are to the true center
of
political and economic thought they are, the more thoughtful and
insightful
they're likely to be.

There's nothing wrong with leanings and attitudes. That diversity of
persepective and opinion is essential to a democratic society if it is
to
avoid falling into a static and entropic state. Further, as I've said
many
times, most Americans, including myself, have a greater or lesser streak
of
libertarian attitude. But not ideology. That's for the people who can't
deal
with the anxiety and challenge of the real, and very messy, world,
including
contradictory facts and ideas that are equally true.


Authoritarian means, among other things, believing that you have the
right
to think for others. I don't happen to need or want that.

Hardly anyone does.

Yet the authoritarian left and right seem to need to do that for
everyone. And they do it so poorly!

One of the two basic strains of conservatism in America is highly
authoritarian ("law and order" conservatives -- the traditional type, who
have morphed into what we now call "social conservatives."). The other is
what's being called "libertarian" today. What they are, in their pure
form, is what Murray Rothbard called "anarcho-capitalists." That was a
term of approval by Rothbard, by the way, and it was in use for 12 or 15
years before the invention of modern "libertarianism" and the Libertarian
Party.

Now, how do you differ from that conservative type of libertarian? Do you
somehow restrict commerce or contracts to differentiate yourself from the
conservatives? Are there other differences between you and them?

--
Ed Huntress

Ed, he is probably one of these types of libertarian:
http://www.leftycartoons.com/the-24-...f-libertarian/

(How many of these folks frequent this group?)