I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

In article , john B.
writes
snip
I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.
That would have been 'killed spirits of salts'.
In other words; dilute hydrochloric acid which has had zinc dissolved in
it. It is an excellent flux but must be thoroughly washed off the work
after soldering as it is corrosive. In the UK 'Bakers Fluid' flux is
much the same thing. -don't leave the bottle near any tools etc. as the
vapour will cause corrosion.
--
Chris Holford

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

There are special epoxy fillers for powder-coating - temperature-
resistant and electrically conductive.

I'd leave the dings and just coat over them; if they are big enough to be
a structural problem you want to notice that, not hide it.

And big enough can be quite small - think crack-initiation...

Something else you might consider is baking-soda blasting.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:05:43 +0000 (UTC), xpzzzz wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

There are special epoxy fillers for powder-coating - temperature-
resistant and electrically conductive.

I'd leave the dings and just coat over them; if they are big enough to be
a structural problem you want to notice that, not hide it.

And big enough can be quite small - think crack-initiation...

Something else you might consider is baking-soda blasting.


It is not something to think about. The only place in that part of the
country that does powder coating used glass beads - take it or leave
it.

I admit that the dings are really too small the worry about but a
couple are, for instance, right in the middle of the top tube and they
sort of stick out like a sore thumb from the shinny polished look of
the rest of that tube.

None of them are serious enough to result in a strength problem but
after exerting considerable efforts I want it to be purty :-)

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:13:26 +0100, Chris Holford
wrote:

In article , john B.
writes
snip
I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.
That would have been 'killed spirits of salts'.
In other words; dilute hydrochloric acid which has had zinc dissolved in
it. It is an excellent flux but must be thoroughly washed off the work
after soldering as it is corrosive. In the UK 'Bakers Fluid' flux is
much the same thing. -don't leave the bottle near any tools etc. as the
vapour will cause corrosion.


I wonder what panel beaters used back in the day of leading body dents
in the front wing?

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:13:26 +0100, Chris Holford
wrote:

In article , john B.
writes
snip
I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.
That would have been 'killed spirits of salts'.
In other words; dilute hydrochloric acid which has had zinc dissolved in
it. It is an excellent flux but must be thoroughly washed off the work
after soldering as it is corrosive. In the UK 'Bakers Fluid' flux is
much the same thing. -don't leave the bottle near any tools etc. as the
vapour will cause corrosion.


I wonder what panel beaters used back in the day of leading body dents
in the front wing?

The same thing -- zinc chloride flux. And their smoothing paddles were
coated with beeswax, which protected the wooden paddles and also acted as a
flux.

Be aware that ordinary electrical solders are not good for body work, or any
work in which you need a pasty temperature range in order to work the lead.
Body solders have a long pasty range that allows you to smooth them into
shape with a paddle or other tool. Electrical solders have an abrupt melting
point and they're nearly impossible to work with in this type of work. They
just go "slump" and run off.

--
Ed Huntress

"john B." wrote in message
...

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

Zinc chloride flux. You can buy it already mixed, or make your own. Get some
muriatic acid (dilute hydrochloric) from a building supply place, where they
sell it for etching concrete. Dilute it with an equal amount of water.
Muriatic usually is sold as 31.45% hydrochloric; you want around 15%.

Drop in some small pieces of zinc, letting the solution work until it stops
bubbling. Do this out of doors or you'll rust any steel in the vicinity from
the acid vapor that goes off with the hydrogen bubbles. Then add some more
zinc until the solution is saturated. Leave it overnight. It's standard
practice to leave a few zinc pieces in the solution to be sure it's
saturated.

Zinc pieces can be obtained from the shell of a carbon-zinc battery, the
cheapos sold in discount stores.

FWIW, I personally would not apply soldering heat to the middle of a bicycle
frame tube. Unless it's a real cheap, heavy frame, it depends on the
hardness obtained from drawing the tube for strength, and it's easily
weakened with heat. This is less of a problem at the tube ends, which is how
they get away with brazing the frames together.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:45:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
.. .

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

Zinc chloride flux. You can buy it already mixed, or make your own. Get some
muriatic acid (dilute hydrochloric) from a building supply place, where they
sell it for etching concrete. Dilute it with an equal amount of water.
Muriatic usually is sold as 31.45% hydrochloric; you want around 15%.

Drop in some small pieces of zinc, letting the solution work until it stops
bubbling. Do this out of doors or you'll rust any steel in the vicinity from
the acid vapor that goes off with the hydrogen bubbles. Then add some more
zinc until the solution is saturated. Leave it overnight. It's standard
practice to leave a few zinc pieces in the solution to be sure it's
saturated.

Zinc pieces can be obtained from the shell of a carbon-zinc battery, the
cheapos sold in discount stores.

FWIW, I personally would not apply soldering heat to the middle of a bicycle
frame tube. Unless it's a real cheap, heavy frame, it depends on the
hardness obtained from drawing the tube for strength, and it's easily
weakened with heat. This is less of a problem at the tube ends, which is how
they get away with brazing the frames together.

As you say a "lugged" frame built with butted tubes has already been
heated to a red heat in order to braze the tubes, but even the best
frame makers seem quite happy to braze fittings anywhere on the tubes.
Braze-ons for bottle mounts on the down tube, brake posts on the forks
and seat stays, cable guides on the top tube and shifter mounts on the
down tube, to name a few, and all brazed at a red heat. My thoughts in
using lead was that it could be done at quite a bit lower temperature
- sort of fail safe thinking :-).

I was sorta aware that body lead was different then solder but since
I'm just filling small blemishes - think a 30 year old bike - and I
had hoped that a bit of flux and a glob of solder and a little filing
and polishing and I'd have a smooth tube. I hope :-)

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:45:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
. ..

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

Zinc chloride flux. You can buy it already mixed, or make your own. Get
some
muriatic acid (dilute hydrochloric) from a building supply place, where
they
sell it for etching concrete. Dilute it with an equal amount of water.
Muriatic usually is sold as 31.45% hydrochloric; you want around 15%.

Drop in some small pieces of zinc, letting the solution work until it
stops
bubbling. Do this out of doors or you'll rust any steel in the vicinity
from
the acid vapor that goes off with the hydrogen bubbles. Then add some more
zinc until the solution is saturated. Leave it overnight. It's standard
practice to leave a few zinc pieces in the solution to be sure it's
saturated.

Zinc pieces can be obtained from the shell of a carbon-zinc battery, the
cheapos sold in discount stores.

FWIW, I personally would not apply soldering heat to the middle of a
bicycle
frame tube. Unless it's a real cheap, heavy frame, it depends on the
hardness obtained from drawing the tube for strength, and it's easily
weakened with heat. This is less of a problem at the tube ends, which is
how
they get away with brazing the frames together.

As you say a "lugged" frame built with butted tubes has already been
heated to a red heat in order to braze the tubes, but even the best
frame makers seem quite happy to braze fittings anywhere on the tubes.

That's true. I've seen some discussion about it, including speculation about
the integrity of a frame with those features, but I've not seen any actual
test results.

Braze-ons for bottle mounts on the down tube, brake posts on the forks
and seat stays, cable guides on the top tube and shifter mounts on the
down tube, to name a few, and all brazed at a red heat. My thoughts in
using lead was that it could be done at quite a bit lower temperature
- sort of fail safe thinking :-).

Note that the loads on the down tube are mostly compressive; cable guides
are (or were) typically located near the ends of tubes, where bending loads
are low; and so on. Also, the two real racing bikes I have owned -- a Frejus
road bike in double-butted Reynolds 531, and a Cinelli track bike in
Columbus tube -- had no such brazed fittings on main frame tubes.

Bikes in normal use are not stressed enough to test the actual strength of
the tubing. They're generally well within the elastic range, because a frame
that flexes a lot, in racing, at least, is a very inefficient frame. I owned
one, which I kept for about two weeks. g

So I'm not saying that you're courting disaster to heat a frame tube in the
middle. If it's straight carbon tubing, even soldering heat will seriously
compromise the strength. But it's very rare that any bike in normal use
would ever approach the strength limits of the tube. Consider, though, that
enough local load was once applied to your bike to create those dents.


I was sorta aware that body lead was different then solder but since
I'm just filling small blemishes - think a 30 year old bike - and I
had hoped that a bit of flux and a glob of solder and a little filing
and polishing and I'd have a smooth tube. I hope :-)


Good luck. If you don't have a body-shop supply where you can buy body
solder, plumber's wiping solder is almost the same thing. But I doubt if any
of that has been sold for at least 30 years. d8-)

Let us know how it works out.

--
Ed Huntress

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Good luck. If you don't have a body-shop supply where you can buy body
solder, plumber's wiping solder is almost the same thing. But I doubt if any
of that has been sold for at least 30 years. d8-)

50/50 has some mush. Avoid 63% - eutectic or near eutectic. If you want
to fuss about it, melt some solder and add more lead to it.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Good luck. If you don't have a body-shop supply where you can buy body
solder, plumber's wiping solder is almost the same thing. But I doubt if
any
of that has been sold for at least 30 years. d8-)

50/50 has some mush. Avoid 63% - eutectic or near eutectic. If you want
to fuss about it, melt some solder and add more lead to it.

Ha! That's what I considered suggesting. I've done it in a pinch. However,
it sounds like John is aware of the issues and that he wants a simple,
straightforward solution. Between giving the recipe for zinc chloride flux
and mixing one's own solder, I was afraid I'd fallen into the RCM trap of
making a new avocation out of a quick fix-it job. g

--
Ed Huntress



--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go
away.

The flux question has been addressed, and you should be able to locate small
containers of plumber or general purpose flux at many retail hardware
sections, or a welding supply area in a place like Farm-Fleet or Tractor
Supply Co.
I found a water-soluable zinc chloride paste at TSC which isn't greasy like
the more common vaseline-based flux.

When dings/small dents occur in crowned surfaces, there are often raised
areas/high spots adjacent to the ding.
With thin tubing, attempts to level the high spots can present a problem of
weakening the tubing wall.

If high spots are present, they can be seen by checking the surface with a
straight edge.

An option might be to cover the damaged area with a vinyl graphic design
sticker or similar item, rather than potentially weakening the tubing by
attempting to level the surface.

--
WB
..........


"john B." wrote in message
...

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B.
wrote:


I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.
Greetings John,
If you want to repair these dings with solder I would say use lead
free plumbing solder and paste flux. The paste flux must contain zinc
chloride. I think all paste plumbing solder does. The lead free solder
is pretty easy to work with and the left over can still be used for
plumbing. If you need to build up deep areas use a pointed flame that
heats only a small area. This way you only heat up a small area enough
for the solder to flow aznd can add as much solder as you need without
melting all the surrounding solder.
Eric

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:05:43 +0000 (UTC), xpzzzz wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

Use LabMetal: http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?ID=1

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:26:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:45:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
...

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

Zinc chloride flux. You can buy it already mixed, or make your own. Get
some
muriatic acid (dilute hydrochloric) from a building supply place, where
they
sell it for etching concrete. Dilute it with an equal amount of water.
Muriatic usually is sold as 31.45% hydrochloric; you want around 15%.

Drop in some small pieces of zinc, letting the solution work until it
stops
bubbling. Do this out of doors or you'll rust any steel in the vicinity
from
the acid vapor that goes off with the hydrogen bubbles. Then add some more
zinc until the solution is saturated. Leave it overnight. It's standard
practice to leave a few zinc pieces in the solution to be sure it's
saturated.

Zinc pieces can be obtained from the shell of a carbon-zinc battery, the
cheapos sold in discount stores.

FWIW, I personally would not apply soldering heat to the middle of a
bicycle
frame tube. Unless it's a real cheap, heavy frame, it depends on the
hardness obtained from drawing the tube for strength, and it's easily
weakened with heat. This is less of a problem at the tube ends, which is
how
they get away with brazing the frames together.

As you say a "lugged" frame built with butted tubes has already been
heated to a red heat in order to braze the tubes, but even the best
frame makers seem quite happy to braze fittings anywhere on the tubes.

That's true. I've seen some discussion about it, including speculation about
the integrity of a frame with those features, but I've not seen any actual
test results.

Certainly heating a stressed tube could have an effect but I doubt
that in the case of a bicycle frame it is a major problem. Given that
in metal bikes (can't speak for fiber) the main problem is stiffness
it is likely that tubes either thick enough or large enough in
diameter to be stiff enough may well be able to stand a little heat in
the middle and the more modern frames are likely built of something
like Reynolds 631 or better that are air hardening.

The frame makers who have been building for many years are not
reluctant to add braze-ons where you want them.

Braze-ons for bottle mounts on the down tube, brake posts on the forks
and seat stays, cable guides on the top tube and shifter mounts on the
down tube, to name a few, and all brazed at a red heat. My thoughts in
using lead was that it could be done at quite a bit lower temperature
- sort of fail safe thinking :-).

Note that the loads on the down tube are mostly compressive; cable guides
are (or were) typically located near the ends of tubes, where bending loads
are low; and so on. Also, the two real racing bikes I have owned -- a Frejus
road bike in double-butted Reynolds 531, and a Cinelli track bike in
Columbus tube -- had no such brazed fittings on main frame tubes.


Actually, the down tube - runs from the head tube to the bottom
bracket - is the most highly stressed tube in the frame - in tension.
Think of a really fit racer mashing down on the pedals while pulling
up on the handle bars to beat Lance Armstrong up a hill :-)

I suggest that while your racing bikes may not have had braze-ons most
road racing bikes do. At least for a water bottle on the seat tube and
more then likely for cable guides on the top, down, and R.H. chain
stay tubes.

Bikes in normal use are not stressed enough to test the actual strength of
the tubing. They're generally well within the elastic range, because a frame
that flexes a lot, in racing, at least, is a very inefficient frame. I owned
one, which I kept for about two weeks. g

So I'm not saying that you're courting disaster to heat a frame tube in the
middle. If it's straight carbon tubing, even soldering heat will seriously
compromise the strength. But it's very rare that any bike in normal use
would ever approach the strength limits of the tube. Consider, though, that
enough local load was once applied to your bike to create those dents.

Reynolds 531 has been around for 100 years or more and certainly has
had an effect on the better grade of bicycle frames. I doubt that many
medium or high priced frames still exist that were built with straight
carbon steel tubes.


I was sorta aware that body lead was different then solder but since
I'm just filling small blemishes - think a 30 year old bike - and I
had hoped that a bit of flux and a glob of solder and a little filing
and polishing and I'd have a smooth tube. I hope :-)


Good luck. If you don't have a body-shop supply where you can buy body
solder, plumber's wiping solder is almost the same thing. But I doubt if any
of that has been sold for at least 30 years. d8-)

I live in a country that uses plastic pile exclusively for plumbing. I
doubt that one could find a stick of plumbing solder in the whole
country :-)

Let us know how it works out.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:48:22 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Good luck. If you don't have a body-shop supply where you can buy body
solder, plumber's wiping solder is almost the same thing. But I doubt if any
of that has been sold for at least 30 years. d8-)

50/50 has some mush. Avoid 63% - eutectic or near eutectic. If you want
to fuss about it, melt some solder and add more lead to it.

Appreciate it but as (I think) I mentioned in another post, this is
not an effort to fill dents it is mainly that small dings and scrapes
that a bicycle collects in 30 years of use that I'm contemplating.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:50:58 -0400, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

The flux question has been addressed, and you should be able to locate small
containers of plumber or general purpose flux at many retail hardware
sections, or a welding supply area in a place like Farm-Fleet or Tractor
Supply Co.

I live in Thailand. No Farm-Fleet or Tractor Supply here :-)

I found a water-soluable zinc chloride paste at TSC which isn't greasy like
the more common vaseline-based flux.

When dings/small dents occur in crowned surfaces, there are often raised
areas/high spots adjacent to the ding.
With thin tubing, attempts to level the high spots can present a problem of
weakening the tubing wall.

True.

If high spots are present, they can be seen by checking the surface with a
straight edge.

Or by running a finger over the damage.

An option might be to cover the damaged area with a vinyl graphic design
sticker or similar item, rather than potentially weakening the tubing by
attempting to level the surface.

Yes. But these are very small scratch sort of damage due to the 30
years that this frame had been ridden. Nothing major and the effort is
mainly to get a really, really, good looking finish. One does not want
to be asked "who built it?" and have to reply "me!" if it looks
horrible :-)

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:28:26 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:05:43 +0000 (UTC), xpzzzz wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

Use LabMetal: http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?ID=1


My powder coating guys tell me that they cure at around 200 degrees(C)
minimum.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 17:09:03 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B.
wrote:


I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.
Greetings John,
If you want to repair these dings with solder I would say use lead
free plumbing solder and paste flux. The paste flux must contain zinc
chloride. I think all paste plumbing solder does. The lead free solder
is pretty easy to work with and the left over can still be used for
plumbing. If you need to build up deep areas use a pointed flame that
heats only a small area. This way you only heat up a small area enough
for the solder to flow aznd can add as much solder as you need without
melting all the surrounding solder.
Eric

I'm not even sure that they have lead free solder over here in
Thailand. It is amazing what people can get along without. Plumbing?
All blue plastic these days.

But your comments about paste flux is appreciated as I can get that
and the current scheme is to try paste flux and solid solder if I can
find any of that and any solder if I can't. As the frame is in a frame
vise when working on it so I can orient the repair spot up and hope
that the solder doesn't run off faster then I can apply it :-)

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:26:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:45:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
m...

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

Zinc chloride flux. You can buy it already mixed, or make your own. Get
some
muriatic acid (dilute hydrochloric) from a building supply place, where
they
sell it for etching concrete. Dilute it with an equal amount of water.
Muriatic usually is sold as 31.45% hydrochloric; you want around 15%.

Drop in some small pieces of zinc, letting the solution work until it
stops
bubbling. Do this out of doors or you'll rust any steel in the vicinity
from
the acid vapor that goes off with the hydrogen bubbles. Then add some
more
zinc until the solution is saturated. Leave it overnight. It's standard
practice to leave a few zinc pieces in the solution to be sure it's
saturated.

Zinc pieces can be obtained from the shell of a carbon-zinc battery, the
cheapos sold in discount stores.

FWIW, I personally would not apply soldering heat to the middle of a
bicycle
frame tube. Unless it's a real cheap, heavy frame, it depends on the
hardness obtained from drawing the tube for strength, and it's easily
weakened with heat. This is less of a problem at the tube ends, which is
how
they get away with brazing the frames together.

As you say a "lugged" frame built with butted tubes has already been
heated to a red heat in order to braze the tubes, but even the best
frame makers seem quite happy to braze fittings anywhere on the tubes.

That's true. I've seen some discussion about it, including speculation
about
the integrity of a frame with those features, but I've not seen any actual
test results.

Certainly heating a stressed tube could have an effect but I doubt
that in the case of a bicycle frame it is a major problem. Given that
in metal bikes (can't speak for fiber) the main problem is stiffness
it is likely that tubes either thick enough or large enough in
diameter to be stiff enough may well be able to stand a little heat in
the middle and the more modern frames are likely built of something
like Reynolds 631 or better that are air hardening.

The frame makers who have been building for many years are not
reluctant to add braze-ons where you want them.

Braze-ons for bottle mounts on the down tube, brake posts on the forks
and seat stays, cable guides on the top tube and shifter mounts on the
down tube, to name a few, and all brazed at a red heat. My thoughts in
using lead was that it could be done at quite a bit lower temperature
- sort of fail safe thinking :-).

Note that the loads on the down tube are mostly compressive; cable guides
are (or were) typically located near the ends of tubes, where bending
loads
are low; and so on. Also, the two real racing bikes I have owned -- a
Frejus
road bike in double-butted Reynolds 531, and a Cinelli track bike in
Columbus tube -- had no such brazed fittings on main frame tubes.


Actually, the down tube - runs from the head tube to the bottom
bracket - is the most highly stressed tube in the frame - in tension.

Whoops! I forgot the terms. It's only been about 45 years. g Yes, that
tube is certainly loaded in tension.

Think of a really fit racer mashing down on the pedals while pulling
up on the handle bars to beat Lance Armstrong up a hill :-)

I suggest that while your racing bikes may not have had braze-ons most
road racing bikes do. At least for a water bottle on the seat tube and
more then likely for cable guides on the top, down, and R.H. chain
stay tubes.

Bikes in normal use are not stressed enough to test the actual strength of
the tubing. They're generally well within the elastic range, because a
frame
that flexes a lot, in racing, at least, is a very inefficient frame. I
owned
one, which I kept for about two weeks. g

So I'm not saying that you're courting disaster to heat a frame tube in
the
middle. If it's straight carbon tubing, even soldering heat will seriously
compromise the strength. But it's very rare that any bike in normal use
would ever approach the strength limits of the tube. Consider, though,
that
enough local load was once applied to your bike to create those dents.

Reynolds 531 has been around for 100 years or more and certainly has
had an effect on the better grade of bicycle frames. I doubt that many
medium or high priced frames still exist that were built with straight
carbon steel tubes.

It wasn't clear what type of bike you were talking about. My 30-year-old
bike, which is one of my two general-purpose road bikes and which was
medium-priced (Schwinn Super LeTour), is 1020 straight carbon, which
surprised me at the time.

Anyway, it wasn't clear.



I was sorta aware that body lead was different then solder but since
I'm just filling small blemishes - think a 30 year old bike - and I
had hoped that a bit of flux and a glob of solder and a little filing
and polishing and I'd have a smooth tube. I hope :-)


Good luck. If you don't have a body-shop supply where you can buy body
solder, plumber's wiping solder is almost the same thing. But I doubt if
any
of that has been sold for at least 30 years. d8-)

I live in a country that uses plastic pile exclusively for plumbing. I
doubt that one could find a stick of plumbing solder in the whole
country :-)

Let us know how it works out.

john B. wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:28:26 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:05:43 +0000 (UTC), xpzzzz wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.
Use LabMetal: http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?ID=1


My powder coating guys tell me that they cure at around 200 degrees(C)
minimum.


As someone who did a LOT of powder coating (12+ years) I can tell you
soft lead solder will not handle the heat of the powder cure.

However all is not lost. Silver solder or brazing will handle the heat.
OR there are special high temp fillers that most powder coaters can get
that will work.

Also make SURE that ALL threaded holes, bearing surfaces, anything you
don't want powder on/in is masked very well. Powder does NOT come off
easy. Get it in threads and you will have a ton of fun trying to get it out.


--
Steve W.

Ed Huntress wrote:
"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:26:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:45:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
...
I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.
Zinc chloride flux. You can buy it already mixed, or make your own. Get
some
muriatic acid (dilute hydrochloric) from a building supply place, where
they
sell it for etching concrete. Dilute it with an equal amount of water.
Muriatic usually is sold as 31.45% hydrochloric; you want around 15%.

Drop in some small pieces of zinc, letting the solution work until it
stops
bubbling. Do this out of doors or you'll rust any steel in the vicinity
from
the acid vapor that goes off with the hydrogen bubbles. Then add some
more
zinc until the solution is saturated. Leave it overnight. It's standard
practice to leave a few zinc pieces in the solution to be sure it's
saturated.

Zinc pieces can be obtained from the shell of a carbon-zinc battery, the
cheapos sold in discount stores.

FWIW, I personally would not apply soldering heat to the middle of a
bicycle
frame tube. Unless it's a real cheap, heavy frame, it depends on the
hardness obtained from drawing the tube for strength, and it's easily
weakened with heat. This is less of a problem at the tube ends, which is
how
they get away with brazing the frames together.
As you say a "lugged" frame built with butted tubes has already been
heated to a red heat in order to braze the tubes, but even the best
frame makers seem quite happy to braze fittings anywhere on the tubes.
That's true. I've seen some discussion about it, including speculation
about
the integrity of a frame with those features, but I've not seen any actual
test results.

Certainly heating a stressed tube could have an effect but I doubt
that in the case of a bicycle frame it is a major problem. Given that
in metal bikes (can't speak for fiber) the main problem is stiffness
it is likely that tubes either thick enough or large enough in
diameter to be stiff enough may well be able to stand a little heat in
the middle and the more modern frames are likely built of something
like Reynolds 631 or better that are air hardening.

The frame makers who have been building for many years are not
reluctant to add braze-ons where you want them.

Braze-ons for bottle mounts on the down tube, brake posts on the forks
and seat stays, cable guides on the top tube and shifter mounts on the
down tube, to name a few, and all brazed at a red heat. My thoughts in
using lead was that it could be done at quite a bit lower temperature
- sort of fail safe thinking :-).
Note that the loads on the down tube are mostly compressive; cable guides
are (or were) typically located near the ends of tubes, where bending
loads
are low; and so on. Also, the two real racing bikes I have owned -- a
Frejus
road bike in double-butted Reynolds 531, and a Cinelli track bike in
Columbus tube -- had no such brazed fittings on main frame tubes.

Actually, the down tube - runs from the head tube to the bottom
bracket - is the most highly stressed tube in the frame - in tension.

Whoops! I forgot the terms. It's only been about 45 years. g Yes, that
tube is certainly loaded in tension.

Think of a really fit racer mashing down on the pedals while pulling
up on the handle bars to beat Lance Armstrong up a hill :-)

I suggest that while your racing bikes may not have had braze-ons most
road racing bikes do. At least for a water bottle on the seat tube and
more then likely for cable guides on the top, down, and R.H. chain
stay tubes.

Bikes in normal use are not stressed enough to test the actual strength of
the tubing. They're generally well within the elastic range, because a
frame
that flexes a lot, in racing, at least, is a very inefficient frame. I
owned
one, which I kept for about two weeks. g

So I'm not saying that you're courting disaster to heat a frame tube in
the
middle. If it's straight carbon tubing, even soldering heat will seriously
compromise the strength. But it's very rare that any bike in normal use
would ever approach the strength limits of the tube. Consider, though,
that
enough local load was once applied to your bike to create those dents.

Reynolds 531 has been around for 100 years or more and certainly has
had an effect on the better grade of bicycle frames. I doubt that many
medium or high priced frames still exist that were built with straight
carbon steel tubes.

It wasn't clear what type of bike you were talking about. My 30-year-old
bike, which is one of my two general-purpose road bikes and which was
medium-priced (Schwinn Super LeTour), is 1020 straight carbon, which
surprised me at the time.

Anyway, it wasn't clear.

I was sorta aware that body lead was different then solder but since
I'm just filling small blemishes - think a 30 year old bike - and I
had hoped that a bit of flux and a glob of solder and a little filing
and polishing and I'd have a smooth tube. I hope :-)

Good luck. If you don't have a body-shop supply where you can buy body
solder, plumber's wiping solder is almost the same thing. But I doubt if
any
of that has been sold for at least 30 years. d8-)

I live in a country that uses plastic pile exclusively for plumbing. I
doubt that one could find a stick of plumbing solder in the whole
country :-)

Let us know how it works out.




Unless it's a light weight bike that was made with stretched tube.
THey do that, you know...


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

On Jun 1, 2:33*am, john B. wrote:
I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. *My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

Filling the dents with solder seems like a lot of work for what will
be a cosmetic repair. There are sand-able fillers for use beneath
powdercoat, as described at this thread: http://www.finishing.com/91/67.shtml

On 6/1/2011 8:52 PM, Paul Hays wrote:
On Jun 1, 2:33 am, john wrote:
I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

Filling the dents with solder seems like a lot of work for what will
be a cosmetic repair. There are sand-able fillers for use beneath
powdercoat, as described at this thread: http://www.finishing.com/91/67.shtml


note also that the reason the frame is thin is to reduce weight - a good
frame from the 1960s would be .020 thick Reynolds 531 tubing, double
butted - it would be criminal to undue that by adding lead. (I have a
Winsor bike, of the type that won the tour de California ridden by Eddie
Merx - some day I'll figure out what to do with it, I bought it new but
it's very short coupled and uncomfortable to ride as a touring bike)

--
www.wbnoble.com

john B. wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:48:22 -0400, Ecnerwal
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Good luck. If you don't have a body-shop supply where you can buy body
solder, plumber's wiping solder is almost the same thing. But I doubt if
any of that has been sold for at least 30 years. d8-)

50/50 has some mush. Avoid 63% - eutectic or near eutectic. If you want
to fuss about it, melt some solder and add more lead to it.

Appreciate it but as (I think) I mentioned in another post, this is
not an effort to fill dents it is mainly that small dings and scrapes
that a bicycle collects in 30 years of use that I'm contemplating.

Well, why not just sand it then?

Thanks,
Rich

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 23:16:35 -0700, Rich Grise
wrote:

john B. wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:48:22 -0400, Ecnerwal
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Good luck. If you don't have a body-shop supply where you can buy body
solder, plumber's wiping solder is almost the same thing. But I doubt if
any of that has been sold for at least 30 years. d8-)

50/50 has some mush. Avoid 63% - eutectic or near eutectic. If you want
to fuss about it, melt some solder and add more lead to it.

Appreciate it but as (I think) I mentioned in another post, this is
not an effort to fill dents it is mainly that small dings and scrapes
that a bicycle collects in 30 years of use that I'm contemplating.

Well, why not just sand it then?

Thanks,
Rich

Because the tube wall is only about a half-mm thick.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 22:18:20 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

john B. wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:28:26 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:05:43 +0000 (UTC), xpzzzz wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.
Use LabMetal: http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?ID=1


My powder coating guys tell me that they cure at around 200 degrees(C)
minimum.


As someone who did a LOT of powder coating (12+ years) I can tell you
soft lead solder will not handle the heat of the powder cure.

Ah Ha! Now that is something I didn't know. Thank you.

However all is not lost. Silver solder or brazing will handle the heat.
OR there are special high temp fillers that most powder coaters can get
that will work.

I can use a fairly low temp. silver braze that I know will be safe for
powder coating. The reason I had for using the lead was that it is
much softer then the steel and so easier to file down flush without
taking too much off the tube.

I guess it would have turned into doing it the easy way only to
discover that the easy way got considerably more complex and costly by
the time you got it finished.

Also make SURE that ALL threaded holes, bearing surfaces, anything you
don't want powder on/in is masked very well. Powder does NOT come off
easy. Get it in threads and you will have a ton of fun trying to get it out.

Yes, the powder coating guys briefed me on that.

Since I've got you (so to speak :-) I had given some thought to trying
to do a two color powder coating - spray the frame and bake one color.
Then mask off the portions that are to be the initial color and spray
a second color and bake again. The second coat would be darker then
the first coat, if that matters, and I also believe that the thickness
of the second coat would show. I also understand that the masking
tape(?) is fairly stiff so the masked edges would be pretty much
straight lines but I can live with that.

Any words of wisdom here?

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 21:57:50 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:26:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:45:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
om...

much snipped


Reynolds 531 has been around for 100 years or more and certainly has
had an effect on the better grade of bicycle frames. I doubt that many
medium or high priced frames still exist that were built with straight
carbon steel tubes.

It wasn't clear what type of bike you were talking about. My 30-year-old
bike, which is one of my two general-purpose road bikes and which was
medium-priced (Schwinn Super LeTour), is 1020 straight carbon, which
surprised me at the time.

Anyway, it wasn't clear.

I should have said. It is a strange one to me too. It was built in
Japan and when I bought it had 26 x 1-3/8 wheels and tires, cantilever
brakes, drop bars, fenders and a carrier. Standard 52-39 road
sprockets, 7 speed and a 2 Kg. lugged frame.

I bought it to make over into a semi touring bike and replaced the
wheels with standard MTB 26" wheels and had to move the brake studs.
which began the whole frame project.



I was sorta aware that body lead was different then solder but since
I'm just filling small blemishes - think a 30 year old bike - and I
had hoped that a bit of flux and a glob of solder and a little filing
and polishing and I'd have a smooth tube. I hope :-)


Good luck. If you don't have a body-shop supply where you can buy body
solder, plumber's wiping solder is almost the same thing. But I doubt if
any
of that has been sold for at least 30 years. d8-)

I live in a country that uses plastic pile exclusively for plumbing. I
doubt that one could find a stick of plumbing solder in the whole
country :-)

Let us know how it works out.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 22:21:50 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:
snipped


Unless it's a light weight bike that was made with stretched tube.
THey do that, you know...

Nope, it is a lugged frame with what appear to be double butted tubes.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 20:52:05 -0700 (PDT), Paul Hays
wrote:

On Jun 1, 2:33*am, john B. wrote:
I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. *My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

Filling the dents with solder seems like a lot of work for what will
be a cosmetic repair. There are sand-able fillers for use beneath
powdercoat, as described at this thread: http://www.finishing.com/91/67.shtml

You are probably correct however I live in Thailand and there doesn't
seem to be that much market for powder coating and thus not that much
material available. The place that are doing my frame has six colors
available.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 21:01:08 -0700, Bill Noble
wrote:

On 6/1/2011 8:52 PM, Paul Hays wrote:
On Jun 1, 2:33 am, john wrote:
I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

I do remember my uncle having a bottle of some sort of acid with zinc
(I think) strips in it that he used for flux but other then that I
don't have a clue.

Anyone help?
Cheers,

John B.

Filling the dents with solder seems like a lot of work for what will
be a cosmetic repair. There are sand-able fillers for use beneath
powdercoat, as described at this thread: http://www.finishing.com/91/67.shtml


note also that the reason the frame is thin is to reduce weight - a good
frame from the 1960s would be .020 thick Reynolds 531 tubing, double
butted - it would be criminal to undue that by adding lead. (I have a
Winsor bike, of the type that won the tour de California ridden by Eddie
Merx - some day I'll figure out what to do with it, I bought it new but
it's very short coupled and uncomfortable to ride as a touring bike)

Yes. As well as I can measure the tubes are in the neighborhood of 1/2
mm in thickness. What I was trying to do was to fair the dings and
scratches accumulated over 30 years and for the cosmetics only.

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 21:57:50 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:26:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:45:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
news:q91cu6hh6vr4s69qjrnkmo1qtaagnks4o8@4ax. com...

much snipped


Reynolds 531 has been around for 100 years or more and certainly has
had an effect on the better grade of bicycle frames. I doubt that many
medium or high priced frames still exist that were built with straight
carbon steel tubes.

It wasn't clear what type of bike you were talking about. My 30-year-old
bike, which is one of my two general-purpose road bikes and which was
medium-priced (Schwinn Super LeTour), is 1020 straight carbon, which
surprised me at the time.

Anyway, it wasn't clear.

I should have said. It is a strange one to me too. It was built in
Japan and when I bought it had 26 x 1-3/8 wheels and tires, cantilever
brakes, drop bars, fenders and a carrier. Standard 52-39 road
sprockets, 7 speed and a 2 Kg. lugged frame.

I bought it to make over into a semi touring bike and replaced the
wheels with standard MTB 26" wheels and had to move the brake studs.
which began the whole frame project.

That sounds like a fun project. Just two weeks ago I finished a bike
project, which I hadn't done for years. I converted my son's Raleigh
mountain bike into a heavy-duty commuter (with 26 x 1.5 road tires, etc.). I
was surprised at how light the frame is, despite large-diameter tubes. He's
23 and has suddenly developed a renewed interest in bicycling, and now he's
riding all over Washington, DC with it.

I wouldn't have thought of powder-coating a bike frame, but I'm not familiar
with having it done. My thought would have been for two-part polyurethane,
but I'm not equipped for spraying that stuff, either.

--
Ed Huntress

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:28:26 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:05:43 +0000 (UTC), xpzzzz wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

Use LabMetal: http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?ID=1


My powder coating guys tell me that they cure at around 200 degrees(C)
minimum.

And Lab-Metal will handle 425F (218C) for up to 20 minutes... so, again,
use Lab-Metal.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 09:15:35 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 21:57:50 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:26:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
om...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:45:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
news:q91cu6hh6vr4s69qjrnkmo1qtaagnks4o8@4ax .com...

much snipped


Reynolds 531 has been around for 100 years or more and certainly has
had an effect on the better grade of bicycle frames. I doubt that many
medium or high priced frames still exist that were built with straight
carbon steel tubes.

It wasn't clear what type of bike you were talking about. My 30-year-old
bike, which is one of my two general-purpose road bikes and which was
medium-priced (Schwinn Super LeTour), is 1020 straight carbon, which
surprised me at the time.

Anyway, it wasn't clear.

I should have said. It is a strange one to me too. It was built in
Japan and when I bought it had 26 x 1-3/8 wheels and tires, cantilever
brakes, drop bars, fenders and a carrier. Standard 52-39 road
sprockets, 7 speed and a 2 Kg. lugged frame.

I bought it to make over into a semi touring bike and replaced the
wheels with standard MTB 26" wheels and had to move the brake studs.
which began the whole frame project.

That sounds like a fun project. Just two weeks ago I finished a bike
project, which I hadn't done for years. I converted my son's Raleigh
mountain bike into a heavy-duty commuter (with 26 x 1.5 road tires, etc.). I
was surprised at how light the frame is, despite large-diameter tubes. He's
23 and has suddenly developed a renewed interest in bicycling, and now he's
riding all over Washington, DC with it.

I wouldn't have thought of powder-coating a bike frame, but I'm not familiar
with having it done. My thought would have been for two-part polyurethane,
but I'm not equipped for spraying that stuff, either.


Essentially what I'm doing, although I'm also learning about touring
at the same time. Standard road gearing is not what you want, or at
least not what I want, for cycling long distances in hot weather :-)

I initially thought about painting with two part paint and have access
to either the gear and/or people to do it for me but when I ran across
this powder coating place their price was cheaper then I'd have to pay
for the two part paint as it is only sold in gallon cans here. And, as
the paint place is a friend's I'd felt beholding and would have had to
offer to pay his help for their time, and as I'm a friend I'd have had
to pay the help over market rates to indicate my thanks, and, and....
the powder coating was cheaper :-)

Have the lad try a pair of 26 x 1.3 smooth tires. It turns the bike
into a rocket.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 08:39:01 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:28:26 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:05:43 +0000 (UTC), xpzzzz wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will eventually
be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

Use LabMetal: http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?ID=1


My powder coating guys tell me that they cure at around 200 degrees(C)
minimum.

And Lab-Metal will handle 425F (218C) for up to 20 minutes... so, again,
use Lab-Metal.

The problem is that I doubt that I can find any here and shipping plus
customs duties, etc., make the cost rather shocking :-)

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 08:39:01 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:28:26 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:05:43 +0000 (UTC), xpzzzz wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with
some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes
are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to
clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem
is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will
eventually
be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

Use LabMetal:
http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?ID=1


My powder coating guys tell me that they cure at around 200 degrees(C)
minimum.

And Lab-Metal will handle 425F (218C) for up to 20 minutes... so,
again,
use Lab-Metal.

The problem is that I doubt that I can find any here and shipping plus
customs duties, etc., make the cost rather shocking :-)

There is a very wide variety of solders used in industry that have melting
points ranging from 250 C to 450 C This is the best list I've seen.
Considering the small quantity you need, maybe you can get some from a local
electronics assembly plant or something:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

--
Ed Huntress

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 09:15:35 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 21:57:50 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:26:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
news:15gcu694pm4ccpppsuop1637qlgeboj52d@4ax. com...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:45:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
news:q91cu6hh6vr4s69qjrnkmo1qtaagnks4o8@4a x.com...

much snipped


Reynolds 531 has been around for 100 years or more and certainly has
had an effect on the better grade of bicycle frames. I doubt that many
medium or high priced frames still exist that were built with straight
carbon steel tubes.

It wasn't clear what type of bike you were talking about. My 30-year-old
bike, which is one of my two general-purpose road bikes and which was
medium-priced (Schwinn Super LeTour), is 1020 straight carbon, which
surprised me at the time.

Anyway, it wasn't clear.

I should have said. It is a strange one to me too. It was built in
Japan and when I bought it had 26 x 1-3/8 wheels and tires, cantilever
brakes, drop bars, fenders and a carrier. Standard 52-39 road
sprockets, 7 speed and a 2 Kg. lugged frame.

I bought it to make over into a semi touring bike and replaced the
wheels with standard MTB 26" wheels and had to move the brake studs.
which began the whole frame project.

That sounds like a fun project. Just two weeks ago I finished a bike
project, which I hadn't done for years. I converted my son's Raleigh
mountain bike into a heavy-duty commuter (with 26 x 1.5 road tires, etc.).
I
was surprised at how light the frame is, despite large-diameter tubes.
He's
23 and has suddenly developed a renewed interest in bicycling, and now
he's
riding all over Washington, DC with it.

I wouldn't have thought of powder-coating a bike frame, but I'm not
familiar
with having it done. My thought would have been for two-part polyurethane,
but I'm not equipped for spraying that stuff, either.


Essentially what I'm doing, although I'm also learning about touring
at the same time. Standard road gearing is not what you want, or at
least not what I want, for cycling long distances in hot weather :-)

I initially thought about painting with two part paint and have access
to either the gear and/or people to do it for me but when I ran across
this powder coating place their price was cheaper then I'd have to pay
for the two part paint as it is only sold in gallon cans here. And, as
the paint place is a friend's I'd felt beholding and would have had to
offer to pay his help for their time, and as I'm a friend I'd have had
to pay the help over market rates to indicate my thanks, and, and....
the powder coating was cheaper :-)

That's a strong incentive to try powder coating. Not having the equipment, I
haven't tried buying two-part polyurethane, so I don't know what sizes are
available here. I want to try the brushable stuff some time to see how it
behaves.


Have the lad try a pair of 26 x 1.3 smooth tires. It turns the bike
into a rocket.

I'll keep that in mind. Right now, I'm pleased that he's enjoying it, and
I'll try to teach him how to maintain it if he keeps up his interest. For
the present we just needed a bike that he could ride in DC with a low chance
of flats, and that he doesn't mind throwing into the luggage bin of a
DC-to-NYC bus.

His dad is pleased because I got my car back when he moved to Washington. He
can't afford to park it down there, which has been a boon for me. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Jun 2, 6:26*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"john B." wrote in message

...





On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 08:39:01 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:28:26 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:05:43 +0000 (UTC), xpzzzz wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with
some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes
are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to
clean
them up. *My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem
is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will
eventually
be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

* *Use LabMetal:
http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?ID=1

My powder coating guys tell me that they cure at around 200 degrees(C)
minimum.

* *And Lab-Metal will handle 425F (218C) for up to 20 minutes... so,
again,
use Lab-Metal.

The problem is that I doubt that I can find any here and shipping plus
customs duties, etc., make the cost rather shocking :-)

There is a very wide variety of solders used in industry that have melting
points ranging from 250 C to 450 C This is the best list I've seen.
Considering the small quantity you need, maybe you can get some from a local
electronics assembly plant or something:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

--
Ed Huntress-

There's also this magic Indium/Lead/tin stuff from http://www.chipquik.com
that, lowers the melting point of regular 63/37 solder to 150C. This
stuff is great for reworking large surface mounted chips - makes it a
whole lot easier to get them off the board without doing damage.

But it surely isn't cheap. And what kind of temperatures do you need
for powder coating? Maybe this stuff melts at too low a temperature.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 21:26:56 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 08:39:01 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:28:26 -0500, "David Courtney"
wrote:

"john B." wrote in message
om...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:05:43 +0000 (UTC), xpzzzz wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:33:43 +0700, john B. wrote:

I'm in the process of rebuilding a bicycle frame and am left with
some
minor dings and scratches which I want to fill and fair. The tubes
are
rather remarkably thin and I really do not want to use a file to
clean
them up. My idea is to use lead solder as a filler and my problem
is
that I have no idea what to use for flux.

The reason for using a metal filler is that the frame will
eventually
be
powder coated and the preparation used here is a good glass bead
blasting and I don't think that conventional painting fillers would
stand that, or the high temperature baking.

Use LabMetal:
http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?ID=1


My powder coating guys tell me that they cure at around 200 degrees(C)
minimum.

And Lab-Metal will handle 425F (218C) for up to 20 minutes... so,
again,
use Lab-Metal.

The problem is that I doubt that I can find any here and shipping plus
customs duties, etc., make the cost rather shocking :-)

There is a very wide variety of solders used in industry that have melting
points ranging from 250 C to 450 C This is the best list I've seen.
Considering the small quantity you need, maybe you can get some from a local
electronics assembly plant or something:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

Probably so but Bangkok covers some 15,000 sq. Km. and the telephone
yellow pages have about 10 pages in it and the entries are all large
companies. Trying to locate something essentially involves knowing
where to look for it.

But, I am going to Singapore next week (where you can look things up
in the phone book) and I'll have a look there.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 21:43:15 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 09:15:35 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 21:57:50 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
om...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:26:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
news:15gcu694pm4ccpppsuop1637qlgeboj52d@4ax .com...
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:45:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"john B." wrote in message
news:q91cu6hh6vr4s69qjrnkmo1qtaagnks4o8@4 ax.com...

much snipped


Reynolds 531 has been around for 100 years or more and certainly has
had an effect on the better grade of bicycle frames. I doubt that many
medium or high priced frames still exist that were built with straight
carbon steel tubes.

It wasn't clear what type of bike you were talking about. My 30-year-old
bike, which is one of my two general-purpose road bikes and which was
medium-priced (Schwinn Super LeTour), is 1020 straight carbon, which
surprised me at the time.

Anyway, it wasn't clear.

I should have said. It is a strange one to me too. It was built in
Japan and when I bought it had 26 x 1-3/8 wheels and tires, cantilever
brakes, drop bars, fenders and a carrier. Standard 52-39 road
sprockets, 7 speed and a 2 Kg. lugged frame.

I bought it to make over into a semi touring bike and replaced the
wheels with standard MTB 26" wheels and had to move the brake studs.
which began the whole frame project.

That sounds like a fun project. Just two weeks ago I finished a bike
project, which I hadn't done for years. I converted my son's Raleigh
mountain bike into a heavy-duty commuter (with 26 x 1.5 road tires, etc.).
I
was surprised at how light the frame is, despite large-diameter tubes.
He's
23 and has suddenly developed a renewed interest in bicycling, and now
he's
riding all over Washington, DC with it.

I wouldn't have thought of powder-coating a bike frame, but I'm not
familiar
with having it done. My thought would have been for two-part polyurethane,
but I'm not equipped for spraying that stuff, either.


Essentially what I'm doing, although I'm also learning about touring
at the same time. Standard road gearing is not what you want, or at
least not what I want, for cycling long distances in hot weather :-)

I initially thought about painting with two part paint and have access
to either the gear and/or people to do it for me but when I ran across
this powder coating place their price was cheaper then I'd have to pay
for the two part paint as it is only sold in gallon cans here. And, as
the paint place is a friend's I'd felt beholding and would have had to
offer to pay his help for their time, and as I'm a friend I'd have had
to pay the help over market rates to indicate my thanks, and, and....
the powder coating was cheaper :-)

That's a strong incentive to try powder coating. Not having the equipment, I
haven't tried buying two-part polyurethane, so I don't know what sizes are
available here. I want to try the brushable stuff some time to see how it
behaves.


Have the lad try a pair of 26 x 1.3 smooth tires. It turns the bike
into a rocket.

I'll keep that in mind. Right now, I'm pleased that he's enjoying it, and
I'll try to teach him how to maintain it if he keeps up his interest. For
the present we just needed a bike that he could ride in DC with a low chance
of flats, and that he doesn't mind throwing into the luggage bin of a
DC-to-NYC bus.

His dad is pleased because I got my car back when he moved to Washington. He
can't afford to park it down there, which has been a boon for me. d8-)


The joys of parenthood. I'm in the process of spoiling the grand kids
:-)