Hey guys, maybe you can help me out a bit here..

Here's the situation. We do some work for the food industry, so almost
everything we weld for them we need to grind smooth and polish the welds
and surfaces. Now this can be on an OD, or ID, or flat area.. Sometimes
its as big as 5" ID, or as small as 2" ID.. At the moment, and this is a
rough estimate, but we'll spend about an hour welding something, and 3
hours polishing. We grind with stones and flap wheels or sandpaper discs
on a pneumatic right angle or straight grinder, then polish with finer
flaps and or scotch bright wheels.

I really have to explore different avenues because this polishing time
is killing us. So, I come to you to ask, how the hell can I make these
jobs profitable?

Thanks for any insight


Tom

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:05:29 -0500, tnik wrote:

Hey guys, maybe you can help me out a bit here..

Here's the situation. We do some work for the food industry, so almost
everything we weld for them we need to grind smooth and polish the welds
and surfaces. Now this can be on an OD, or ID, or flat area.. Sometimes
its as big as 5" ID, or as small as 2" ID.. At the moment, and this is a
rough estimate, but we'll spend about an hour welding something, and 3
hours polishing. We grind with stones and flap wheels or sandpaper discs
on a pneumatic right angle or straight grinder, then polish with finer
flaps and or scotch bright wheels.

I really have to explore different avenues because this polishing time
is killing us. So, I come to you to ask, how the hell can I make these
jobs profitable?

It sounds as if you're underbidding and underbilling. Start billing
for time spent. That's why food tables are so damned expensive.

Have you tried belt sanders, either 1" angle-grinder addons or larger?

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

tnik wrote:

Hey guys, maybe you can help me out a bit here..

Here's the situation. We do some work for the food industry, so almost
everything we weld for them we need to grind smooth and polish the welds
and surfaces. Now this can be on an OD, or ID, or flat area.. Sometimes
its as big as 5" ID, or as small as 2" ID.. At the moment, and this is a
rough estimate, but we'll spend about an hour welding something, and 3
hours polishing. We grind with stones and flap wheels or sandpaper discs
on a pneumatic right angle or straight grinder, then polish with finer
flaps and or scotch bright wheels.

I really have to explore different avenues because this polishing time
is killing us. So, I come to you to ask, how the hell can I make these
jobs profitable?

Thanks for any insight

Tom

Post on sci.engr.joining.welding the resident expert there has extensive
experience with this type of situation.

On 02/23/2011 08:15 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:05:29 -0500, wrote:

Hey guys, maybe you can help me out a bit here..

Here's the situation. We do some work for the food industry, so almost
everything we weld for them we need to grind smooth and polish the welds
and surfaces. Now this can be on an OD, or ID, or flat area.. Sometimes
its as big as 5" ID, or as small as 2" ID.. At the moment, and this is a
rough estimate, but we'll spend about an hour welding something, and 3
hours polishing. We grind with stones and flap wheels or sandpaper discs
on a pneumatic right angle or straight grinder, then polish with finer
flaps and or scotch bright wheels.

I really have to explore different avenues because this polishing time
is killing us. So, I come to you to ask, how the hell can I make these
jobs profitable?

It sounds as if you're underbidding and underbilling. Start billing
for time spent. That's why food tables are so damned expensive.

Have you tried belt sanders, either 1" angle-grinder addons or larger?

Or work hard to bring your grinding & polishing costs down to the bid
prices that are winning you business.

Losing money on every sale and trying to make it up in volume is a
bitch, isn't it?

If you have someone smart and motivated on staff (you? that guy who's
always coming up with the irritating suggestions?) you could assign them
to spend a few hours a day investigating the whole grinding/polishing
process to try to find out what's cheapest. Pay attention to supplies
cost, too -- both so you don't save pennies on time while losing dollars
on supplies, and so you don't save pennies on supplies while losing
dollars on time.

I'd even consider going over your welding technique -- if you can spend
an extra 20% time on the welding and save 20% time on the polishing,
that's a 16% overall time savings, given your 3:1 polishing to welding
ratio.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:05:29 -0500, tnik wrote:

Hey guys, maybe you can help me out a bit here..

Here's the situation. We do some work for the food industry, so almost
everything we weld for them we need to grind smooth and polish the welds
and surfaces. Now this can be on an OD, or ID, or flat area.. Sometimes
its as big as 5" ID, or as small as 2" ID.. At the moment, and this is a
rough estimate, but we'll spend about an hour welding something, and 3
hours polishing. We grind with stones and flap wheels or sandpaper discs
on a pneumatic right angle or straight grinder, then polish with finer
flaps and or scotch bright wheels.

I really have to explore different avenues because this polishing time
is killing us. So, I come to you to ask, how the hell can I make these
jobs profitable?

Thanks for any insight


Tom

I've done a fair bit of this. I prefer carbide burs in a die grinder
to ruff it out. Then I have an INDUSTRIAL STRENGTH buffer. It a 2 hp.
motor driving an arbor with 12 inch diameter buffing pads. There's a
huge assortment for different jobs. Put buffing compound on the wheel,
then LEAN into it with the part. For huge parts, put the buffing wheel
in the side grinder.

Probably nothing new here. It is certainly a practice makes perfect
thing. I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

On 02/23/2011 11:39 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Laser marking hell -- when are they going to start genetically
engineering fruits so the bar codes just show up on the skins?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 2/23/2011 12:59 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
snip
Or work hard to bring your grinding & polishing costs down to the bid
prices that are winning you business.

Losing money on every sale and trying to make it up in volume is a
bitch, isn't it?

If you have someone smart and motivated on staff (you? that guy who's
always coming up with the irritating suggestions?) you could assign them
to spend a few hours a day investigating the whole grinding/polishing
process to try to find out what's cheapest. Pay attention to supplies
cost, too -- both so you don't save pennies on time while losing dollars
on supplies, and so you don't save pennies on supplies while losing
dollars on time.

I'd even consider going over your welding technique -- if you can spend
an extra 20% time on the welding and save 20% time on the polishing,
that's a 16% overall time savings, given your 3:1 polishing to welding
ratio.


Yea, I'm one of those people that love to come up with new ideas to ****
off everyone else. The welding is done about as good as it can get.. The
guy we have welding is (for better terms) a welding god. I've been
looking around at different things, buffing wheels with compounds and
whatnot. I bet if I can get the polishing down to %50 of the time, then
the boss would be content.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:50:06 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 02/23/2011 11:39 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Laser marking hell -- when are they going to start genetically
engineering fruits so the bar codes just show up on the skins?

Both great ideas. I'd just settle for some way to keep from getting
little tiny apple stickers all over everything. And find a use for the
miles of siliconed ribbon that the lables came on.

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:50:06 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 02/23/2011 11:39 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Laser marking hell -- when are they going to start genetically
engineering fruits so the bar codes just show up on the skins?

Both great ideas. I'd just settle for some way to keep from getting
little tiny apple stickers all over everything. And find a use for the
miles of siliconed ribbon that the lables came on.

The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology already,
I've seen news reports on it.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:39:14 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:50:06 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 02/23/2011 11:39 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Laser marking hell -- when are they going to start genetically
engineering fruits so the bar codes just show up on the skins?

Both great ideas. I'd just settle for some way to keep from getting
little tiny apple stickers all over everything. And find a use for the
miles of siliconed ribbon that the lables came on.

The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

KEWL, I've not seen this but i want one. How much will it cost me to
build a couple units?

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:39:14 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:50:06 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 02/23/2011 11:39 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Laser marking hell -- when are they going to start genetically
engineering fruits so the bar codes just show up on the skins?

Both great ideas. I'd just settle for some way to keep from getting
little tiny apple stickers all over everything. And find a use for the
miles of siliconed ribbon that the lables came on.

The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

It's supposed to work quite well, be more "green" since it eliminates
all those labels and carrier tape, and for the producers/processors,
being a non contact process it eliminates all the jamming and
mislabeling issues with the labeling machines. There is a good reason
nearly every other food product has it's packaging marked by laser or by
inkjet.

On Feb 23, 2:08*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:50:06 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 02/23/2011 11:39 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Laser marking hell -- when are they going to start genetically
engineering fruits so the bar codes just show up on the skins?

Both great ideas. I'd just settle for some way to keep from getting
little tiny apple stickers all over everything. And find a use for the
miles of siliconed ribbon that the lables came on.

Karl

Better take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7gVEStgfc

On 2/23/2011 2:29 PM, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:05:29 -0500, wrote:

Hey guys, maybe you can help me out a bit here..

Here's the situation. We do some work for the food industry, so almost
everything we weld for them we need to grind smooth and polish the welds
and surfaces. Now this can be on an OD, or ID, or flat area.. Sometimes
its as big as 5" ID, or as small as 2" ID.. At the moment, and this is a
rough estimate, but we'll spend about an hour welding something, and 3
hours polishing. We grind with stones and flap wheels or sandpaper discs
on a pneumatic right angle or straight grinder, then polish with finer
flaps and or scotch bright wheels.

I really have to explore different avenues because this polishing time
is killing us. So, I come to you to ask, how the hell can I make these
jobs profitable?

Thanks for any insight


Tom

I've done a fair bit of this. I prefer carbide burs in a die grinder
to ruff it out. Then I have an INDUSTRIAL STRENGTH buffer. It a 2 hp.
motor driving an arbor with 12 inch diameter buffing pads. There's a
huge assortment for different jobs. Put buffing compound on the wheel,
then LEAN into it with the part. For huge parts, put the buffing wheel
in the side grinder.

Probably nothing new here. It is certainly a practice makes perfect
thing. I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

About 40 years ago I worked at a place that made large industrial
washing machines in stainless. After a die grinder smoothed the welds a
touch, 12-14" sewn buffing wheels driven by a flexible shaft with a big
dolly mounted motor were used to polish the surfaces. The polishing was
a dirty job.

Kevin Gallimore

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:02:13 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:


The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

KEWL, I've not seen this but i want one. How much will it cost me to
build a couple units?

The water cooled laser tube, power supply and optics maybe $1K (?) and
you need to scan it. Maybe galvo mirrors or a mirror on x-y. Under 2K
each, I should think.

On 2/23/2011 3:08 PM, Karl Townsend wrote:

Both great ideas. I'd just settle for some way to keep from getting
little tiny apple stickers all over everything. And find a use for the
miles of siliconed ribbon that the lables came on.

Karl,

Dumb question. Is the adhesive on the (damned) sticker rated for human
consumption?

Kevin Gallimore

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:20:45 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:39:14 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:50:06 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 02/23/2011 11:39 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Laser marking hell -- when are they going to start genetically
engineering fruits so the bar codes just show up on the skins?

Both great ideas. I'd just settle for some way to keep from getting
little tiny apple stickers all over everything. And find a use for the
miles of siliconed ribbon that the lables came on.

The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

It's supposed to work quite well, be more "green" since it eliminates
all those labels and carrier tape, and for the producers/processors,
being a non contact process it eliminates all the jamming and
mislabeling issues with the labeling machines. There is a good reason
nearly every other food product has it's packaging marked by laser or by
inkjet.

Marking is all fine and good, but the bar code scanner has to be able
to pick it up for it to be really useful. I've not tested that. Laser
marking of ICs is barely readable by humans at times (particularly
humans with aging vision and less than 2,000 lux on the surface and
inability to tilt the surface just right).

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:02:13 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:


The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

KEWL, I've not seen this but i want one. How much will it cost me to
build a couple units?

The water cooled laser tube, power supply and optics maybe $1K (?) and
you need to scan it. Maybe galvo mirrors or a mirror on x-y. Under 2K
each, I should think.

I don't know if this is a factor, but keep in mind that breaking cell walls
in food products opens up a path for bacteria to get a grip. The marking
with a laser is the result of burning. Even a tiny amount may invite
bacterial attack. Once they get a colony going, they can attack cells that
are still intact. Rotten apples in barrels, and all of that.

Or it may be that skin cells alone don't lead to this problem. It's
something that you might be able to research in the technical literature.

--
Ed Huntress

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:20:45 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:39:14 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:50:06 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 02/23/2011 11:39 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Laser marking hell -- when are they going to start genetically
engineering fruits so the bar codes just show up on the skins?

Both great ideas. I'd just settle for some way to keep from getting
little tiny apple stickers all over everything. And find a use for the
miles of siliconed ribbon that the lables came on.

The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

It's supposed to work quite well, be more "green" since it eliminates
all those labels and carrier tape, and for the producers/processors,
being a non contact process it eliminates all the jamming and
mislabeling issues with the labeling machines. There is a good reason
nearly every other food product has it's packaging marked by laser or by
inkjet.

Marking is all fine and good, but the bar code scanner has to be able
to pick it up for it to be really useful. I've not tested that. Laser
marking of ICs is barely readable by humans at times (particularly
humans with aging vision and less than 2,000 lux on the surface and
inability to tilt the surface just right).

Produce very often does not have a barcode, just a PLU number. I know
they have been testing the laser marking of fruit and the like as a way
of eliminating all the little stickers, I don't know how far it's
progressed since I'm not in that business.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:50:06 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 02/23/2011 11:39 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Laser marking hell -- when are they going to start genetically
engineering fruits so the bar codes just show up on the skins?

Geneng barcodes AND his logo.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:05:29 -0500, tnik wrote:

Hey guys, maybe you can help me out a bit here..

Here's the situation. We do some work for the food industry, so almost
everything we weld for them we need to grind smooth and polish the welds
and surfaces. Now this can be on an OD, or ID, or flat area.. Sometimes

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&h...f95b1b9c7c0 d

--

Pete C. wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:39:14 -0600, "Pete
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:50:06 -0800, Tim
wrote:

On 02/23/2011 11:39 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Laser marking hell -- when are they going to start genetically
engineering fruits so the bar codes just show up on the skins?

Both great ideas. I'd just settle for some way to keep from getting
little tiny apple stickers all over everything. And find a use for the
miles of siliconed ribbon that the lables came on.

The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

It's supposed to work quite well, be more "green" since it eliminates
all those labels and carrier tape, and for the producers/processors,
being a non contact process it eliminates all the jamming and
mislabeling issues with the labeling machines. There is a good reason
nearly every other food product has it's packaging marked by laser or by
inkjet.


I think my stomach is covered with those stickers. Eating fruit at
night while driving has all types of hazards.

John

tnik wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:05:29 -0500:

I really have to explore different avenues because this polishing time
is killing us. So, I come to you to ask, how the hell can I make these
jobs profitable?

You might see if you can have a sales rep. from Dynabrade stop by and
have a look at what your doing currently. Their belt sander files
ain't cheap, but it's good quality, and they have a lot of different
attachments.

--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 16:49:44 -0500, the renowned axolotl
wrote:

On 2/23/2011 3:08 PM, Karl Townsend wrote:

Both great ideas. I'd just settle for some way to keep from getting
little tiny apple stickers all over everything. And find a use for the
miles of siliconed ribbon that the lables came on.

Karl,

Dumb question. Is the adhesive on the (damned) sticker rated for human
consumption?

Kevin Gallimore

There's even Kosher and Halal adhesives.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Pete C. wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Do you mean burn the mark into the apple itself?

Thanks,
Rich

On 02/23/2011 01:39 PM, Pete C. wrote:

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?


Does anyone make inkjet ink that is safe for human consumption?
If so, print directly on the apple.


technomaNge
--

Rich Grise wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Do you mean burn the mark into the apple itself?

Thanks,
Rich

Exactly. I know they have been testing the process, not sure how much
progress it's made to commercial implementation.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 19:11:54 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Do you mean burn the mark into the apple itself?

We prefer to think of it as "tanning", Richy.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On 02/23/2011 01:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Spehro wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:02:13 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:


The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

KEWL, I've not seen this but i want one. How much will it cost me to
build a couple units?

The water cooled laser tube, power supply and optics maybe $1K (?) and
you need to scan it. Maybe galvo mirrors or a mirror on x-y. Under 2K
each, I should think.

I don't know if this is a factor, but keep in mind that breaking cell walls
in food products opens up a path for bacteria to get a grip. The marking
with a laser is the result of burning. Even a tiny amount may invite
bacterial attack. Once they get a colony going, they can attack cells that
are still intact. Rotten apples in barrels, and all of that.

Or it may be that skin cells alone don't lead to this problem. It's
something that you might be able to research in the technical literature.

Mark them when they're green, then put them back in the tree to finish
ripening.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On 02/23/2011 01:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Spehro wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:02:13 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:


The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology
already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

KEWL, I've not seen this but i want one. How much will it cost me to
build a couple units?

The water cooled laser tube, power supply and optics maybe $1K (?) and
you need to scan it. Maybe galvo mirrors or a mirror on x-y. Under 2K
each, I should think.

I don't know if this is a factor, but keep in mind that breaking cell
walls
in food products opens up a path for bacteria to get a grip. The marking
with a laser is the result of burning. Even a tiny amount may invite
bacterial attack. Once they get a colony going, they can attack cells
that
are still intact. Rotten apples in barrels, and all of that.

Or it may be that skin cells alone don't lead to this problem. It's
something that you might be able to research in the technical literature.

Mark them when they're green, then put them back in the tree to finish
ripening.

LOL! But how do you stick them back on the tree?

That's definitely out-of-the-box thinking, Tim. I offer my applause. g

--
Ed Huntress

technomaNge wrote:
On 02/23/2011 01:39 PM, Pete C. wrote:

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?


Does anyone make inkjet ink that is safe for human consumption?
If so, print directly on the apple.

http://www.computercakes.com/

--Winston

Pete C. wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Do you mean burn the mark into the apple itself?

Exactly. I know they have been testing the process, not sure how much
progress it's made to commercial implementation.

Well, I'm no greenie or anything like that - I buy day-old bananas because
they're about 1/2 off, and that sort of thing[1], but envisioning apples
with burn marks on them (a brandin' ahrn springs to mind) kinda gives me
pause - like, how well did the wound get cauterized? Breaking anything's
skin is essentially ringing the dinner bell for hungry wild microbes. And
when apple flesh is exposed to air, it starts reacting - when I'm going to
use the apple, how much of it under the burn mark do I have to throw away?

But spraying edible ink on the surface sounds cool (and a lot of people
throw the peel away anyway) but are there apple-handling machines, or would
the people have to pick up each apple individually to mark it?

Thanks,
Rich
[1] I think it was Dave Barry who first said, [and I paraphrase] "'organic
food' is food that consists primarily of insects."

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 19:11:54 -0800, Rich Grise
Pete C. wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Do you mean burn the mark into the apple itself?

We prefer to think of it as "tanning", Richy.

I waxed histrionic in my response to Pete C. just upthread, but in case
nobody wants to bother, in a nutshell, it sounds more like a "brandin'
ahrn." ;-)

Why "Richy?" My name's "Rich."

Thanks,
Rich

Rich Grise wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Do you mean burn the mark into the apple itself?

Exactly. I know they have been testing the process, not sure how much
progress it's made to commercial implementation.

Well, I'm no greenie or anything like that - I buy day-old bananas because
they're about 1/2 off, and that sort of thing[1], but envisioning apples
with burn marks on them (a brandin' ahrn springs to mind) kinda gives me
pause - like, how well did the wound get cauterized? Breaking anything's
skin is essentially ringing the dinner bell for hungry wild microbes. And
when apple flesh is exposed to air, it starts reacting - when I'm going to
use the apple, how much of it under the burn mark do I have to throw away?

The laser certainly cauterizes just fine, that's why it's used on human
surgery. The depth that the laser burns to is also easily controlled, so
it only affects the surface, not all the way through the exterior.

technomaNge wrote:

On 02/23/2011 01:39 PM, Pete C. wrote:

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Does anyone make inkjet ink that is safe for human consumption?
If so, print directly on the apple.

Absolutely. Edible images and the like have been around for years. I'm
not sure if they have an edible ink that will work on the non porous
surface of food grade waxed fruit.

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On 02/23/2011 01:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Spehro wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:02:13 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:


The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology
already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

KEWL, I've not seen this but i want one. How much will it cost me to
build a couple units?

The water cooled laser tube, power supply and optics maybe $1K (?) and
you need to scan it. Maybe galvo mirrors or a mirror on x-y. Under 2K
each, I should think.

I don't know if this is a factor, but keep in mind that breaking cell
walls
in food products opens up a path for bacteria to get a grip. The marking
with a laser is the result of burning. Even a tiny amount may invite
bacterial attack. Once they get a colony going, they can attack cells
that
are still intact. Rotten apples in barrels, and all of that.

Or it may be that skin cells alone don't lead to this problem. It's
something that you might be able to research in the technical literature.

Mark them when they're green, then put them back in the tree to finish
ripening.

LOL! But how do you stick them back on the tree?

That's definitely out-of-the-box thinking, Tim. I offer my applause. g

Point and shoot marking gun with a backpack power supply. Of course all
of your migrant workers will inevitably end up branded with your product
identification as well as your trucks, tractors and most anything else
around.

On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 01:13:54 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 19:11:54 -0800, Rich Grise
Pete C. wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:

I built ten little SS apple labeling units a few years ago. The
last unit polishing took maybe 20% of the time that unit one did.

When are you going to start laser marking the apples and eliminate all
the little stickers?

Do you mean burn the mark into the apple itself?

We prefer to think of it as "tanning", Richy.

I waxed histrionic in my response to Pete C. just upthread, but in case
nobody wants to bother, in a nutshell, it sounds more like a "brandin'
ahrn." ;-)

Right. It's a high-tech electronic branding iron.


Why "Richy?" My name's "Rich."

George Hamilton joke.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

"Pete C." wrote in message
ter.com...

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On 02/23/2011 01:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Spehro wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:02:13 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:


The laser marking is supposed to be the solution to all those
little
stickers. It's not my idea, they've been testing the technology
already,
I've seen news reports on it.

I've marked a few of the very best Jazz apples with a company logo
using my wee CO2 laser. Went over very well with the founder.

KEWL, I've not seen this but i want one. How much will it cost me to
build a couple units?

The water cooled laser tube, power supply and optics maybe $1K (?)
and
you need to scan it. Maybe galvo mirrors or a mirror on x-y. Under 2K
each, I should think.

I don't know if this is a factor, but keep in mind that breaking cell
walls
in food products opens up a path for bacteria to get a grip. The
marking
with a laser is the result of burning. Even a tiny amount may invite
bacterial attack. Once they get a colony going, they can attack cells
that
are still intact. Rotten apples in barrels, and all of that.

Or it may be that skin cells alone don't lead to this problem. It's
something that you might be able to research in the technical
literature.

Mark them when they're green, then put them back in the tree to finish
ripening.

LOL! But how do you stick them back on the tree?

That's definitely out-of-the-box thinking, Tim. I offer my applause. g

Point and shoot marking gun with a backpack power supply. Of course all
of your migrant workers will inevitably end up branded with your product
identification as well as your trucks, tractors and most anything else
around.

And you can make in situ applesauce with the right adjustment. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 01:07:37 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

I don't know if this is a factor, but keep in mind that breaking cell
walls
in food products opens up a path for bacteria to get a grip. The marking
with a laser is the result of burning. Even a tiny amount may invite
bacterial attack. Once they get a colony going, they can attack cells
that
are still intact. Rotten apples in barrels, and all of that.

Or it may be that skin cells alone don't lead to this problem. It's
something that you might be able to research in the technical literature.

Mark them when they're green, then put them back in the tree to finish
ripening.

LOL! But how do you stick them back on the tree?

I think this was answered earlier in the thread. Super Glue. Just
gotta get the right kind... ;-)
--
Best -- Terry