I am reading various diplomatic cables released recently. Naturally, I
tried to read about what I know at least something, so I picked cables
from the Moscow embassy.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable...MOSCOW272.html

Several random thoughts come to mind.

1. I am surprised that these cables were classified norofn and
confidential, instead of secret.

2. Most cables are lively, well thought out, some are outright funny
(like the Caucasus wedding cable).

3. In my own eyes, they do not damage the reputation of the United
States and do not create an impression of the US being an evil back
room manipulator. The most damaging impression for me is lack of any
deep and original insights, I was hoping to see something truly new.

4. A clear impression is that the US is specifically not able to pull
the strings in Russia (which is an allegation of Russian conspiracy
theorists).

5. The allegedly sensational accusations, like that Putin stole
billions of dollars through Gunvor and other companies, are likely
true, but not groundbreaking.

Like the authors of the cables, I also think of the Russian government
on all levels as a mafia of somewhat patriotically minded thieves. I
am personally VERY happy at being able to live in the United States
and make a decent living by relatively honest means.

Perhaps the Russian government officials are simply annoyed at the
known accusations being given credence by the US embassy. The
accusations are well known.

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude. Even if I
buy an argument that the documents were means for interdepartmental
sharing, and such, it is unbelievable to not have an alarm about
someone downloading everything. Many IT and administrative heads
specifically need to roll for this disaster.

i

On Dec 1, 8:36*pm, Ignoramus24652 ignoramus24...@NOSPAM.
24652.invalid wrote:
... 1. I am surprised that these cables were classified norofn and
confidential, instead of secret.
...
i

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/NOFORN

Ignoramus24652 wrote:
I am reading various diplomatic cables released recently. Naturally, I
tried to read about what I know at least something, so I picked cables
from the Moscow embassy.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable...MOSCOW272.html

Several random thoughts come to mind.

1. I am surprised that these cables were classified norofn and
confidential, instead of secret.

2. Most cables are lively, well thought out, some are outright funny
(like the Caucasus wedding cable).

3. In my own eyes, they do not damage the reputation of the United
States and do not create an impression of the US being an evil back
room manipulator. The most damaging impression for me is lack of any
deep and original insights, I was hoping to see something truly new.

4. A clear impression is that the US is specifically not able to pull
the strings in Russia (which is an allegation of Russian conspiracy
theorists).

5. The allegedly sensational accusations, like that Putin stole
billions of dollars through Gunvor and other companies, are likely
true, but not groundbreaking.

Like the authors of the cables, I also think of the Russian government
on all levels as a mafia of somewhat patriotically minded thieves. I
am personally VERY happy at being able to live in the United States
and make a decent living by relatively honest means.

Perhaps the Russian government officials are simply annoyed at the
known accusations being given credence by the US embassy. The
accusations are well known.

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude. Even if I
buy an argument that the documents were means for interdepartmental
sharing, and such, it is unbelievable to not have an alarm about
someone downloading everything. Many IT and administrative heads
specifically need to roll for this disaster.

I always appreciate your insight on these things...

On 12/1/2010 5:36 PM, Ignoramus24652 wrote:
I am reading various diplomatic cables released recently. Naturally, I
tried to read about what I know at least something, so I picked cables
from the Moscow embassy.



good analysis, thanks

On 12/1/2010 7:36 PM, Ignoramus24652 wrote:
I am reading various diplomatic cables released recently. Naturally, I
tried to read about what I know at least something, so I picked cables
from the Moscow embassy.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable...MOSCOW272.html

Several random thoughts come to mind.

1. I am surprised that these cables were classified norofn and
confidential, instead of secret.

2. Most cables are lively, well thought out, some are outright funny
(like the Caucasus wedding cable).

3. In my own eyes, they do not damage the reputation of the United
States and do not create an impression of the US being an evil back
room manipulator. The most damaging impression for me is lack of any
deep and original insights, I was hoping to see something truly new.

4. A clear impression is that the US is specifically not able to pull
the strings in Russia (which is an allegation of Russian conspiracy
theorists).

5. The allegedly sensational accusations, like that Putin stole
billions of dollars through Gunvor and other companies, are likely
true, but not groundbreaking.

Like the authors of the cables, I also think of the Russian government
on all levels as a mafia of somewhat patriotically minded thieves. I
am personally VERY happy at being able to live in the United States
and make a decent living by relatively honest means.

Perhaps the Russian government officials are simply annoyed at the
known accusations being given credence by the US embassy. The
accusations are well known.

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude. Even if I
buy an argument that the documents were means for interdepartmental
sharing, and such, it is unbelievable to not have an alarm about
someone downloading everything. Many IT and administrative heads
specifically need to roll for this disaster.

Ann Coulter has a pretty good commentary today on the guy that did the leak.

http://www.anncoulter.com/


--
I can see 2012 from my front porch

On Dec 1, 7:36*pm, Ignoramus24652 ignoramus24...@NOSPAM.
24652.invalid wrote:
I am reading various diplomatic cables released recently. Naturally, I
tried to read about what I know at least something, so I picked cables
from the Moscow embassy.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable...MOSCOW272.html

Several random thoughts come to mind.

1. I am surprised that these cables were classified norofn and
confidential, instead of secret.

2. Most cables are lively, well thought out, some are outright funny
(like the Caucasus wedding cable).

3. In my own eyes, they do not damage the reputation of the United
States and do not create an impression of the US being an evil back
room manipulator. The most damaging impression for me is lack of any
deep and original insights, I was hoping to see something truly new.

4. A clear impression is that the US is specifically not able to pull
the strings in Russia (which is an allegation of Russian conspiracy
theorists).

5. The allegedly sensational accusations, like that Putin stole
billions of dollars through Gunvor and other companies, are likely
true, but not groundbreaking.

Like the authors of the cables, I also think of the Russian government
on all levels as a mafia of somewhat patriotically minded thieves. I
am personally VERY happy at being able to live in the United States
and make a decent living by relatively honest means.

Perhaps the Russian government officials are simply annoyed at the
known accusations being given credence by the US embassy. The
accusations are well known.

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude. Even if I
buy an argument that the documents were means for interdepartmental
sharing, and such, it is unbelievable to not have an alarm about
someone downloading everything. Many IT and administrative heads
specifically need to roll for this disaster.

i

Good analysis Ig.

Try reading this one...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europ...ama-conspiracy

On 2010-12-02, RBnDFW wrote:
On 12/1/2010 7:36 PM, Ignoramus24652 wrote:
I am reading various diplomatic cables released recently. Naturally, I
tried to read about what I know at least something, so I picked cables
from the Moscow embassy.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable...MOSCOW272.html

Several random thoughts come to mind.

1. I am surprised that these cables were classified norofn and
confidential, instead of secret.

2. Most cables are lively, well thought out, some are outright funny
(like the Caucasus wedding cable).

3. In my own eyes, they do not damage the reputation of the United
States and do not create an impression of the US being an evil back
room manipulator. The most damaging impression for me is lack of any
deep and original insights, I was hoping to see something truly new.

4. A clear impression is that the US is specifically not able to pull
the strings in Russia (which is an allegation of Russian conspiracy
theorists).

5. The allegedly sensational accusations, like that Putin stole
billions of dollars through Gunvor and other companies, are likely
true, but not groundbreaking.

Like the authors of the cables, I also think of the Russian government
on all levels as a mafia of somewhat patriotically minded thieves. I
am personally VERY happy at being able to live in the United States
and make a decent living by relatively honest means.

Perhaps the Russian government officials are simply annoyed at the
known accusations being given credence by the US embassy. The
accusations are well known.

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude. Even if I
buy an argument that the documents were means for interdepartmental
sharing, and such, it is unbelievable to not have an alarm about
someone downloading everything. Many IT and administrative heads
specifically need to roll for this disaster.

Ann Coulter has a pretty good commentary today on the guy that did the leak.

http://www.anncoulter.com/



Brad Manning was the guy who released Iraq documents. He stole and
leaked the documents because he wanted to be famous, not so much
because he was gay. Many people of all orientations want to be
famous.

I am not, yet, aware of who released the diplomatic cables.

Remember a story about "ten Russian spies" from this summer? They were
betrayed by a Moscow based Russian intelligence director Scherbakov
This guy defected to the US with personal files (of the paper
variety), of his spies, whom he betrayed.

So, the FBI interrogated those spies and asked, please confess to
your spying, and they would, naturally, refuse. Then the FBI would get
their defected boss right into the interrogation room, and he would
bring their personal file to really prove that they were completely
screwed.

This incident seriously ****ed off at least one of the spies,
"Juan Lazaro" (Mikhail Vasenkov), he said that he does not want to
live in Russia after this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101111/...ssia_usa_spies


i

On Dec 2, 2:19*pm, RBnDFW wrote:
...
Ann Coulter has a pretty good commentary today on the guy that did the leak.

http://www.anncoulter.com/

Watch "Glee" sometime to see their bitter, vengeful and destructive
self-portrayal.
http://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/char...sue-sylvester/
That actress is married to Dr.Laura.

The music can be good, but keep the remote handy to mute the loud
sucking sound the plots make.

On 12/01/2010 07:36 PM, Ignoramus24652 wrote:

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude.
Yeah, this stuff is all supposed to be on a "need to know" system.
Any decent IT department ought to be able to figure out how to track
access, and if any one person or site is downloading too many files,
they should ask what is going on. It might be legit, somebody who HAS
need to know doing some research, but it is a SURE red flag that needs
to be checked. This guy apparently downloaded WAY more than anyone
could possibly read. And, apparently, the guy did NOT have the required
clearances.

Jon

On 2010-12-02, Jon Elson wrote:
On 12/01/2010 07:36 PM, Ignoramus24652 wrote:
6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude.

Yeah, this stuff is all supposed to be on a "need to know" system.
Any decent IT department ought to be able to figure out how to track
access, and if any one person or site is downloading too many files,
they should ask what is going on. It might be legit, somebody who HAS
need to know doing some research, but it is a SURE red flag that needs
to be checked. This guy apparently downloaded WAY more than anyone
could possibly read. And, apparently, the guy did NOT have the required
clearances.

Exactly.

I hope that many IT heads will roll in this.

i

Jon Elson wrote:

On 12/01/2010 07:36 PM, Ignoramus24652 wrote:

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude.
Yeah, this stuff is all supposed to be on a "need to know" system.
Any decent IT department ought to be able to figure out how to track
access, and if any one person or site is downloading too many files,
they should ask what is going on. It might be legit, somebody who HAS
need to know doing some research, but it is a SURE red flag that needs
to be checked. This guy apparently downloaded WAY more than anyone
could possibly read. And, apparently, the guy did NOT have the required
clearances.

Jon

Where I work we have quarterly access reviews where the managers
responsible for a given area have to review the list of users with
access to those systems and confirm if that access is correct and still
required. This is in addition to similar required audits for various
applications.

It's not a perfect process and has some issue now and then with
independent auditors just requesting reports of the needed data be
generated by us, where we are highly privileged users and this really
violates the separation of control concept, vs. the auditors extracting
those reports themselves after we've given them sufficiently privileged
accounts to do so.

Beyond all of that there are audit logs and session logs that can be
used to identify who accessed what and when, since you can still have
instances of people who do have a legitimate access requirement doing
illegitimate things.

I would certainly agree that these leaks show a shocking level of
security issues in an environment which should have even tighter
controls than the one I deal with.

On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 12:34:36 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Dec 2, 2:19*pm, RBnDFW wrote:
...
Ann Coulter has a pretty good commentary today on the guy that did the leak.

http://www.anncoulter.com/

The point most people miss is that it doesn't matter what Manning's
sexual preference was. He would have done it if he were hetero, too.
Treason is not sexually motivated, it's simply a criminal act.



Watch "Glee" sometime to see their bitter, vengeful and destructive
self-portrayal.

Masochist!


http://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/char...sue-sylvester/
That actress is married to Dr.Laura.

So?


The music can be good, but keep the remote handy to mute the loud
sucking sound the plots make.

I avoid all loud sucking sounds that teevee makes every day on every
channel. How? I ended my DISH subscription and only use the TV for
watching Netflix movies.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Dec 2, 5:56*pm, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 12:34:36 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
...
Watch "Glee" sometime to see their bitter, vengeful and destructive
self-portrayal.

Masochist!

How would YOU know if you only watch Netflix?

It's a poor substitute for variety shows but there are few other
choices. Quite a few big names have appeared as guests, most recently
Gwyneth Paltrow and Carol Burnett. John Stamos gave a good performance
of "Hot Patootie" as Eddie from Rocky Horror.

The Time Warp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t3CW...eature=related

jsw

On 2010-12-02, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 12:34:36 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Dec 2, 2:19?pm, RBnDFW wrote:
...
Ann Coulter has a pretty good commentary today on the guy that did the leak.

http://www.anncoulter.com/

The point most people miss is that it doesn't matter what Manning's
sexual preference was. He would have done it if he were hetero, too.
Treason is not sexually motivated, it's simply a criminal act.

Ann Coulter does not miss it too. She is not that stupid. She simply
markets herself to her audience and she knows that homophobia will
earn her points and money.

On the emotional level, I do not really like homosexuality either, but
at least I can tell nonsense where I see it.

i

On 2010-12-02, Pete C. wrote:

Jon Elson wrote:

On 12/01/2010 07:36 PM, Ignoramus24652 wrote:

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude.
Yeah, this stuff is all supposed to be on a "need to know" system.
Any decent IT department ought to be able to figure out how to track
access, and if any one person or site is downloading too many files,
they should ask what is going on. It might be legit, somebody who HAS
need to know doing some research, but it is a SURE red flag that needs
to be checked. This guy apparently downloaded WAY more than anyone
could possibly read. And, apparently, the guy did NOT have the required
clearances.

Jon

Where I work we have quarterly access reviews where the managers
responsible for a given area have to review the list of users with
access to those systems and confirm if that access is correct and still
required. This is in addition to similar required audits for various
applications.

It's not a perfect process and has some issue now and then with
independent auditors just requesting reports of the needed data be
generated by us, where we are highly privileged users and this really
violates the separation of control concept, vs. the auditors extracting
those reports themselves after we've given them sufficiently privileged
accounts to do so.

Beyond all of that there are audit logs and session logs that can be
used to identify who accessed what and when, since you can still have
instances of people who do have a legitimate access requirement doing
illegitimate things.

I would certainly agree that these leaks show a shocking level of
security issues in an environment which should have even tighter
controls than the one I deal with.

I can kind of, sort of, understand that most government IT guys were
not exactly top dogs in computer security, deterrence, audits etc.
Just being there 9-5 to collect a modest salary and good benefits.

What kind of upsets me is that apparently, no one there, of all the
employees, could not consider this and suggest improvements to their
superiors.

i

On Dec 2, 8:18*pm, Ignoramus13150 ignoramus13...@NOSPAM.
13150.invalid wrote:
...
I can kind of, sort of, understand that most government IT guys were
not exactly top dogs in computer security, deterrence, audits etc.
Just being there 9-5 to collect a modest salary and good benefits.

What kind of upsets me is that apparently, no one there, of all the
employees, could not consider this and suggest improvements to their
superiors.

i

Consider yes, suggest no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Law_of_Oligarchy

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Dec 1, 7:36 pm, Ignoramus24652 ignoramus24...@NOSPAM.
24652.invalid wrote:
I am reading various diplomatic cables released recently. Naturally, I
tried to read about what I know at least something, so I picked cables
from the Moscow embassy.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable...MOSCOW272.html

Several random thoughts come to mind.

1. I am surprised that these cables were classified norofn and
confidential, instead of secret.

2. Most cables are lively, well thought out, some are outright funny
(like the Caucasus wedding cable).

3. In my own eyes, they do not damage the reputation of the United
States and do not create an impression of the US being an evil back
room manipulator. The most damaging impression for me is lack of any
deep and original insights, I was hoping to see something truly new.

4. A clear impression is that the US is specifically not able to pull
the strings in Russia (which is an allegation of Russian conspiracy
theorists).

5. The allegedly sensational accusations, like that Putin stole
billions of dollars through Gunvor and other companies, are likely
true, but not groundbreaking.

Like the authors of the cables, I also think of the Russian government
on all levels as a mafia of somewhat patriotically minded thieves. I
am personally VERY happy at being able to live in the United States
and make a decent living by relatively honest means.

Perhaps the Russian government officials are simply annoyed at the
known accusations being given credence by the US embassy. The
accusations are well known.

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude. Even if I
buy an argument that the documents were means for interdepartmental
sharing, and such, it is unbelievable to not have an alarm about
someone downloading everything. Many IT and administrative heads
specifically need to roll for this disaster.

i

Good analysis Ig.

Try reading this one...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europ...ama-conspiracy

I wouldn't be surprised if the Israelis are involved in this. Eric Cantor
has already pledged his allegiance to Israel, promising to protect and
defend Israeli interests against the government of the US.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl...0/11/13/israel

On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 16:07:01 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Dec 2, 5:56*pm, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 12:34:36 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
...
Watch "Glee" sometime to see their bitter, vengeful and destructive
self-portrayal.

Masochist!

How would YOU know if you only watch Netflix?

My sister was in glee club, drama club, drill team and all that ****.
I had to live through it once, hence being too-familiar with it.
Besides, TV is TV. IN the last ten years, the only things good on
broadcast TV have been CSI, NCIS, Bones, House, and Buffy the Vampire
Slayer. Those out of ten years on 500 channels for 24 hours a day.
It's damned sad.


It's a poor substitute for variety shows but there are few other
choices. Quite a few big names have appeared as guests, most recently
Gwyneth Paltrow and Carol Burnett. John Stamos gave a good performance
of "Hot Patootie" as Eddie from Rocky Horror.

The Time Warp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t3CW...eature=related

Pass. I never was an opera or ****com fan.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:36:53 -0600, Ignoramus24652
wrote:


6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude. Even if I
buy an argument that the documents were means for interdepartmental
sharing, and such, it is unbelievable to not have an alarm about
someone downloading everything. Many IT and administrative heads
specifically need to roll for this disaster.
i

Our government has been infiltrated by a mafia with state backed
technological expertise. (Look at the StuxNet worm as an example of
state backed technical expertise.) This is the only explanation that
makes sense. It would be impossible to cull this many documents
without tripping some internal audit trail alarm unless such an alarm
could be over-ridden with a well placed software hack.

This is the Neo-Cons at work. The Army PFC blamed in this and the
other leak is a mere patsy. The Wikileaks founder is being used as a
useful idiot to leak these docs.

Que Bono? Who benefits? Israel. This is a divide and conquer tactic if
ever there was one. The US is being set up as THE causative factor in
a coming global economic collapse.....when, in fact, such collapse has
been engineered, through derivatives, by international banking
consortiums pursuing a globalist agenda to create the New World Order.

Fortunately, the Russian government seems perfectly aware of this and
has acted completely reasonably by ignoring this provocation.

The Zionists and their mafia stooges are getting sloppy. Their frauds
are becoming legion, well known, and completely exposed.

The entire world is waking up to what is going on and its criminal
nature. The vast majority of the world's population is aware that the
destruction of the sovereign nation-state in favor of a global
government is probably an incredibly bad idea.

The people behind this are, unfortunately, power drunk and completely
psychopathic. Expect more of their attempts to create discord in the
future. Ordo Ab Chao.......Order from Chaos. They will require ever
more chaos before they can impose their New Order.
Dave

On Dec 3, 10:49*am, wrote:
...
This is the Neo-Cons at work. The Army PFC blamed in this and the
other leak is a mere patsy. The Wikileaks founder is being used as a
useful idiot to leak these docs.
...
Dave

Perhaps you are correct, but if you look into past spying incidents
you see as much incompetence and carelessness as conspiracy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker

Asked later how he had managed to access so much classified
information, Walker said, "KMart has better security than the Navy"

I can neither confirm nor deny any of this.

"Ignoramus13150" wrote in message
...
On 2010-12-02, RBnDFW wrote:
On 12/1/2010 7:36 PM, Ignoramus24652 wrote:
I am reading various diplomatic cables released recently. Naturally, I
tried to read about what I know at least something, so I picked cables
from the Moscow embassy.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable...MOSCOW272.html

Several random thoughts come to mind.

1. I am surprised that these cables were classified norofn and
confidential, instead of secret.

2. Most cables are lively, well thought out, some are outright funny
(like the Caucasus wedding cable).

3. In my own eyes, they do not damage the reputation of the United
States and do not create an impression of the US being an evil back
room manipulator. The most damaging impression for me is lack of any
deep and original insights, I was hoping to see something truly new.

4. A clear impression is that the US is specifically not able to pull
the strings in Russia (which is an allegation of Russian conspiracy
theorists).

5. The allegedly sensational accusations, like that Putin stole
billions of dollars through Gunvor and other companies, are likely
true, but not groundbreaking.

Like the authors of the cables, I also think of the Russian government
on all levels as a mafia of somewhat patriotically minded thieves. I
am personally VERY happy at being able to live in the United States
and make a decent living by relatively honest means.

Perhaps the Russian government officials are simply annoyed at the
known accusations being given credence by the US embassy. The
accusations are well known.

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude. Even if I
buy an argument that the documents were means for interdepartmental
sharing, and such, it is unbelievable to not have an alarm about
someone downloading everything. Many IT and administrative heads
specifically need to roll for this disaster.

Ann Coulter has a pretty good commentary today on the guy that did the
leak.

http://www.anncoulter.com/



Brad Manning was the guy who released Iraq documents. He stole and
leaked the documents because he wanted to be famous, not so much
because he was gay. Many people of all orientations want to be
famous.

Although I find it ironic that a woman with an Adam's apple is commenting on
anyone's sexuality, I kinda have to agree with Ann on this one. A guy with a
drag queen for a boyfriend doesn't sound like a good candidate for a
security clearance.

On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:47:06 -0500, "ATP"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Dec 1, 7:36 pm, Ignoramus24652 ignoramus24...@NOSPAM.
24652.invalid wrote:
I am reading various diplomatic cables released recently. Naturally, I
tried to read about what I know at least something, so I picked cables
from the Moscow embassy.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable...MOSCOW272.html

Several random thoughts come to mind.

1. I am surprised that these cables were classified norofn and
confidential, instead of secret.

2. Most cables are lively, well thought out, some are outright funny
(like the Caucasus wedding cable).

3. In my own eyes, they do not damage the reputation of the United
States and do not create an impression of the US being an evil back
room manipulator. The most damaging impression for me is lack of any
deep and original insights, I was hoping to see something truly new.

4. A clear impression is that the US is specifically not able to pull
the strings in Russia (which is an allegation of Russian conspiracy
theorists).

5. The allegedly sensational accusations, like that Putin stole
billions of dollars through Gunvor and other companies, are likely
true, but not groundbreaking.

Like the authors of the cables, I also think of the Russian government
on all levels as a mafia of somewhat patriotically minded thieves. I
am personally VERY happy at being able to live in the United States
and make a decent living by relatively honest means.

Perhaps the Russian government officials are simply annoyed at the
known accusations being given credence by the US embassy. The
accusations are well known.

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude. Even if I
buy an argument that the documents were means for interdepartmental
sharing, and such, it is unbelievable to not have an alarm about
someone downloading everything. Many IT and administrative heads
specifically need to roll for this disaster.

i

Good analysis Ig.

Try reading this one...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europ...ama-conspiracy

I wouldn't be surprised if the Israelis are involved in this. Eric Cantor
has already pledged his allegiance to Israel, promising to protect and
defend Israeli interests against the government of the US.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl...0/11/13/israel


The real fallout from WikiLeaks

12:19 pm November 29, 2010, by Kyle Wingfield

The release of hundreds of thousands of State Department documents by
WikiLeaks, many of which were reported this weekend by the New York
Times and other newspapers around the world, is a humiliation for the
United States. But it need not be a catastrophe.

While the leaked documents reveal some highly undiplomatic lip-flapping
on the part of U.S. emissaries, I don’t think it will harm our relations
with other nations as much as some people fear, for two reasons. First,
other nations’ leaders will probably see this as a
there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I moment; their diplomatic corps most
likely make assessments of one another — including ours — that are at
least as frank as the ones now being aired publicly. (Although they will
surely instruct their ambassadors and staff not to put such thoughts in
electronic documents — something one would have hoped had been common
practice before now for our own State Department.)

The second reason, related to the first, is that there was no apparent
reason for the leaks besides our sheer humiliation, and no reason for
our allies, at least, to believe they will remain immune from similar
treatment in the future. As our State Department and the Obama
administration work to limit the damage from the leaks, this is a point
they will probably try to make.

There will of course be some bitterness among some parties. But as heads
and tempers cool, I suspect the real perceived enemy here will not be us
but the founder of WikiLeaks, Julian Assange.

Assange has been described as a neo-anarchist and an enemy of the United
States, and both are true on the evidence. His false moral crusade is
not an effort to replace American might with something else, just to
tear it down. In a just world, it is Assange, not Rupert Murdoch or Ted
Turner, who would provide inspiration for a James Bond villain.

Those who tut-tut approvingly about a “democracy [that] purports to be
‘world policeman’ “ being brought down a peg ignore the fact that we
have fallen into this role in large part due to the abdication by
numerous other Western nations of their own security responsibilities.
If our capacity is weakened, the result will be a vacuum of
responsibility, not a shift. That is well understood in other capitals,
which is another reason I suspect the fallout from this episode will be
more muted than one might expect.

That’s not to say there shouldn’t be consequences.

The leak itself is the embarrassment here, and the Obama administration
should re-double, re-triple, re-quadruple its efforts to tighten up this
obviously gaping hole in our national security. Some people, including
Assange himself, seem intent on casting this as being particularly
embarrassing and hypocritical for President Obama, who promised “smart
power” and a return to respect for America abroad. To be sure, it isn’t
very smart to produce and store hackable documents with such
unflattering commentary, but neither that practice nor our apparent
electronic vulnerability began Jan. 20, 2009 — or Jan. 20, 2001, for
that matter.

Along those lines, one useful result of Assange’s idiocy is that it
shoots a very large hole through the notion, popular on the left here
and abroad, that anti-Americanism was novel or exclusive to the Bush
era. People who hate America hate us no matter who the president is. To
think otherwise is naive or willfully ignorant.

Beyond that, the leaker(s) of these documents — an American soldier,
Bradley Manning, is again suspected as the source — should be prosecuted
for treason and, if found guilty, executed. Assange and his cohorts
should be charged as co-conspirators, and our allies urged in the
strongest way possible to cooperate with their arrest. They, too, should
face the most severe punishments that our justice system affords for
their crimes.

See, that’s the problem for these dirtbags’ efforts to expose the U.S.
government as a bunch of hypocrites. What now is Washington’s motivation
for not proving them right — by pursuing them mercilessly until the end?



--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:47:06 -0500, "ATP"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Dec 1, 7:36 pm, Ignoramus24652 ignoramus24...@NOSPAM.
24652.invalid wrote:
I am reading various diplomatic cables released recently. Naturally, I
tried to read about what I know at least something, so I picked cables
from the Moscow embassy.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable...MOSCOW272.html

Several random thoughts come to mind.

1. I am surprised that these cables were classified norofn and
confidential, instead of secret.

2. Most cables are lively, well thought out, some are outright funny
(like the Caucasus wedding cable).

3. In my own eyes, they do not damage the reputation of the United
States and do not create an impression of the US being an evil back
room manipulator. The most damaging impression for me is lack of any
deep and original insights, I was hoping to see something truly new.

4. A clear impression is that the US is specifically not able to pull
the strings in Russia (which is an allegation of Russian conspiracy
theorists).

5. The allegedly sensational accusations, like that Putin stole
billions of dollars through Gunvor and other companies, are likely
true, but not groundbreaking.

Like the authors of the cables, I also think of the Russian government
on all levels as a mafia of somewhat patriotically minded thieves. I
am personally VERY happy at being able to live in the United States
and make a decent living by relatively honest means.

Perhaps the Russian government officials are simply annoyed at the
known accusations being given credence by the US embassy. The
accusations are well known.

6. I see the theft of hundreds of thousands of confidential cables, as
an IT and computer security disaster of shocking magnitude. Even if I
buy an argument that the documents were means for interdepartmental
sharing, and such, it is unbelievable to not have an alarm about
someone downloading everything. Many IT and administrative heads
specifically need to roll for this disaster.

i

Good analysis Ig.

Try reading this one...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europ...ama-conspiracy

I wouldn't be surprised if the Israelis are involved in this. Eric Cantor
has already pledged his allegiance to Israel, promising to protect and
defend Israeli interests against the government of the US.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl...0/11/13/israel

If only good Germans had told the Jews the same thing and acted on it
against THEIR totalitarian nutcase leadership.

Bravo Mr Cantor!

Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 10:49:04 -0500, lid wrote:

Our government has been infiltrated by a mafia with state backed
technological expertise. (Look at the StuxNet worm as an example of
state backed technical expertise.) This is the only explanation that
makes sense. It would be impossible to cull this many documents
without tripping some internal audit trail alarm unless such an alarm
could be over-ridden with a well placed software hack.

This is the Neo-Cons at work. The Army PFC blamed in this and the
other leak is a mere patsy. The Wikileaks founder is being used as a
useful idiot to leak these docs.

Oh look..another Far Leftwing Extremist Fringe Kook rises to the top.

Say...you missed blaming it on Bush and Cheney. Why?


--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On Dec 4, 10:53*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
...
Those who tut-tut approvingly about a democracy [that] purports to be
world policeman being brought down a peg ignore the fact that we
have fallen into this role in large part due to the abdication by
numerous other Western nations of their own security responsibilities.
If our capacity is weakened, the result will be a vacuum of
responsibility, not a shift. That is well understood in other capitals,
which is another reason I suspect the fallout from this episode will be
more muted than one might expect.

An excellent example is the Eur-moil in the Balkans before Clinton
intervened. In that instance the whiners blamed us for neglect when
they couldn't accuse us of meddling. Rwanda was another, where was the
UN???

The first major signs of the transfer of global influence were the
1956 Suez cisis where Egypt outmuscled Britain and France, and the
extremely swift US response in Lebanon in 1958.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Lebanon_crisis
It wasn't a major event, but it showed world leaders how capable we
had become relative to their declining, underfunded militaries. We
reacted in hours, Russia needed weeks to bolster Syria. It also proved
the worth of self-supporting carrier groups that could remain on
station for many months, which not even the Royal Navy had ever had.

Imagine the righteous indignation if someone leaked the internal files
of Wikileaks or the outlets that published the leaked documents.

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 07:55:49 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:47:06 -0500, "ATP"
wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the Israelis are involved in this. Eric Cantor
has already pledged his allegiance to Israel, promising to protect and
defend Israeli interests against the government of the US.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl...0/11/13/israel

If only good Germans had told the Jews the same thing and acted on it
against THEIR totalitarian nutcase leadership.

Bravo Mr Cantor!

Gunner, may I ask what makes you so absolutely gung-ho about all
things Israeli all the time?

I admire the Israelis in many ways, but feel that our gov't has gone,
and continues to go, waaay overboard supporting them. The feeling of
extreme nepotism pervades it. Are we getting that much intel from the
Mossad (funding them instead of the CIA), or what?

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On 2010-12-04, Larry Jaques wrote:
Gunner, may I ask what makes you so absolutely gung-ho about all
things Israeli all the time?

I admire the Israelis in many ways, but feel that our gov't has gone,
and continues to go, waaay overboard supporting them. The feeling of
extreme nepotism pervades it. Are we getting that much intel from the
Mossad (funding them instead of the CIA), or what?


There is one thing that I expect from US public servants, which is
"allegiance" to the US. Which, in my own mind, means considering all
foreign issues from the standpoint of what is best for the US, and now
what is best for Russia, Israel, Germany of any other foreign country.

I kind of, sort of understand that some public servants feel partial
to special domestic interests, like oil industry or gun owners etc.

But I draw the line at politicians pledging unyielding and
unconditional support for any foreign country.

i

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 12:21:33 -0600, Ignoramus4371
wrote:

On 2010-12-04, Larry Jaques wrote:
Gunner, may I ask what makes you so absolutely gung-ho about all
things Israeli all the time?

I admire the Israelis in many ways, but feel that our gov't has gone,
and continues to go, waaay overboard supporting them. The feeling of
extreme nepotism pervades it. Are we getting that much intel from the
Mossad (funding them instead of the CIA), or what?


There is one thing that I expect from US public servants, which is
"allegiance" to the US. Which, in my own mind, means considering all
foreign issues from the standpoint of what is best for the US, and now
what is best for Russia, Israel, Germany of any other foreign country.

I kind of, sort of understand that some public servants feel partial
to special domestic interests, like oil industry or gun owners etc.

But I draw the line at politicians pledging unyielding and
unconditional support for any foreign country.

I can't argue with you in the slightest here.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 12:21:33 -0600, Ignoramus4371
wrote:


There is one thing that I expect from US public servants, which is
"allegiance" to the US. Which, in my own mind, means considering all
foreign issues from the standpoint of what is best for the US, and now
what is best for Russia, Israel, Germany of any other foreign country.

I kind of, sort of understand that some public servants feel partial
to special domestic interests, like oil industry or gun owners etc.

But I draw the line at politicians pledging unyielding and
unconditional support for any foreign country.
i

Absolutely.

The problem is: the debt money creation system of international
banking has beholden our government to the globalist agenda of unseen
puppet masters who pursue this agenda for their "administrative
convenience". Here the term "administrative convenience" means: total
dictatorial control of "their" property, i.e., the entire world and
all its peoples.

The fact that the US has a Constitution and is chartered to create its
own laws and institutions that serve the interests of its citizens is
of no importance to them. They merely create supra national
institutions (the UN, the IMF, the WTO, etc.) that, through power of
bought and paid for treaties (the foreign entanglements George
Washington warned of), override the sovereignty of nations.

It may be of some concern to the world's peoples that these
globalists, once firmly ensconced at the apex of their created global
police state, will certainly seek to cull the population of the Earth.
The exterminations they plan will make Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Pol
Pot look like pikers.

Why? Because their demon God feeds on the karma created by blasphemy.
Dave

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 07:57:14 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 10:49:04 -0500, lid wrote:

Our government has been infiltrated by a mafia with state backed
technological expertise. (Look at the StuxNet worm as an example of
state backed technical expertise.) This is the only explanation that
makes sense. It would be impossible to cull this many documents
without tripping some internal audit trail alarm unless such an alarm
could be over-ridden with a well placed software hack.

This is the Neo-Cons at work. The Army PFC blamed in this and the
other leak is a mere patsy. The Wikileaks founder is being used as a
useful idiot to leak these docs.

Oh look..another Far Leftwing Extremist Fringe Kook rises to the top.

Say...you missed blaming it on Bush and Cheney. Why?

I am far from an extremist left-wing kook. I prefer the Constitutional
center.

You, unfortunately, cannot seem to comprehend that your government has
been high-jacked by international banking entities of a supra national
nature that are pursuing the extinction of the concept of the
sovereign nation-state....a New World Order.

These international banking entities are presently looting the US
with the goal to destroy it as a viable force for the proactive
protections of individual freedom in this world. The release of these
diplomatic cables also furthers this goal by humiliating the US and
setting it up as a blame agent for a wide variety of troubles (mostly
economic) caused by the globalists. This cable release is, no doubt
about it, completely an inside job done by an infiltration agent in
the State Department.....a mole.

Until you can comprehend the structure, methods, and the goals of
these internationalists, you will unfortunately remain one of the
masses caught up in the left-right paradigm. You will continually
point at the boogie-men of the opposing viewpoint as the source of any
troubles. This is the goal of the internationalist puppet masters.
It's called: "divide and conquer", a war strategy as old as war
itself. You MUST gain a historical perspective to have the required
comprehension of their methods and goals. This is difficult because
they attempt to keep their histories locked away in secret, accessible
only to the adepts of their secret societies and educational
institutions.

Stuck in the left-right paradigm, you will become ever more
radicalized as the Kool-Aid drinking masses are presented with the
choice between National Socialism on the right and Maoist Communism on
the left.

Both choices are, in fact, the same thing: police states controlled by
a governing elite wherein the individual has no right except to
worship the state. This is a form of institutionalized blasphemy
called idolatry. The state will become God and its governing elites
Gods. Refer to history if you doubt this is possible.

Of course, when they start rounding up the Buddhists for internment or
execution because they refuse to worship at the feet of the state,
don't say you weren't warned. The state may wish to put you on
psychotropic medicines (chemical lobotomy) to cure your "anti-social
hooliganistic tendencies" or just execute you for your refusal to
comport with the decorums of the New Order.

As far as Bush and Cheney. These are mere tools. Puppets of the puppet
masters. That you consider them to be anything but puppets, is
symptomatic of your inability to comprehend the real ruling structure.

Bush and Cheney have, however, committed serious crimes in my name. I
am not appreciative of that fact. There are two types of karma:
individual karma and collective karma. Their criminal effects on the
collective karma of the US have benefited no one. We have yet to see
the full effects of what they have wrought on behalf of their puppet
masters.
Dave

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 08:59:11 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 07:55:49 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 21:47:06 -0500, "ATP"
wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the Israelis are involved in this. Eric Cantor
has already pledged his allegiance to Israel, promising to protect and
defend Israeli interests against the government of the US.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl...0/11/13/israel

If only good Germans had told the Jews the same thing and acted on it
against THEIR totalitarian nutcase leadership.

Bravo Mr Cantor!

Gunner, may I ask what makes you so absolutely gung-ho about all
things Israeli all the time?

Sure.
I admire a country the size of a postage stamp that has held its own
against virtually Every neighbor who has come along and tried to kill
them, often times in packs of multiple neighbors..and each time that
little fellow kicked the **** out of them and then simply let them trot
their beaten asses home.

I admire the Israelis in many ways, but feel that our gov't has gone,
and continues to go, waaay overboard supporting them. The feeling of
extreme nepotism pervades it. Are we getting that much intel from the
Mossad (funding them instead of the CIA), or what?

Mossad plays the Game to their advantage. Once they make sure that they
are advised..then they pass along info that we could/should have.

They are an ally..NOT a 51st state. So what is good for them, may not
necessarily be good for us..but they still with great regularity take it
in the shorts to follow our "suggestions".

So while they may always look out for themselves..they nearly always
pass info along to their best friend. Us. And they have saved many
many American lives by doing so. Stuff that wont make the papers.

But once again..we arent the big dog and they arent the sad little puffy
dog jumping joyously along side because they have a "big friend"

They are tough *******s who are making the best they can in a world that
wants them dead. And they are doing very very well indeed.

"Never again"


Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

lid wrote:

Why? Because their demon God feeds on the karma created by blasphemy.

Nah, it wants to kill the Magnetic Will because it wants to escape back to
the Void:

"Ahriman is in every human. He's the left-brained devil whose cool logic
and detached judgments point out that emotional presence is flawed and
somehow wrong. He's the clever devil whose financial and technical skills
dazzle and impress, and get him lots of recognition in the form of wealth
and power."

--- http://godchannel.com/ahriman.html

Cheers!
Rich

Gunner Asch wrote:

Sure.
I admire a country the size of a postage stamp that has held its own
against virtually Every neighbor who has come along and tried to kill
them, often times in packs of multiple neighbors..and each time that
little fellow kicked the **** out of them and then simply let them trot
their beaten asses home.

Of course, if they had any gratitude for being rescued from Hitler, they
certainly have a weird way of expressing it - the first thing they did
when they got their own country was starting to attack their neighbors
because they wanted to take over more territory.

On the American Taxpayers' Dime!

I say, cut off all foreign aid.

Thanks,
Rich

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:10:59 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Sure.
I admire a country the size of a postage stamp that has held its own
against virtually Every neighbor who has come along and tried to kill
them, often times in packs of multiple neighbors..and each time that
little fellow kicked the **** out of them and then simply let them trot
their beaten asses home.

Of course, if they had any gratitude for being rescued from Hitler, they
certainly have a weird way of expressing it - the first thing they did
when they got their own country was starting to attack their neighbors
because they wanted to take over more territory.

You getting your history from the KKK this week?

Fascinating.


On the American Taxpayers' Dime!

I say, cut off all foreign aid.

Thanks,
Rich

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:10:59 -0800, Rich Grise
Gunner Asch wrote:

Sure.
I admire a country the size of a postage stamp that has held its own
against virtually Every neighbor who has come along and tried to kill
them, often times in packs of multiple neighbors..and each time that
little fellow kicked the **** out of them and then simply let them trot
their beaten asses home.

Of course, if they had any gratitude for being rescued from Hitler, they
certainly have a weird way of expressing it - the first thing they did
when they got their own country was starting to attack their neighbors
because they wanted to take over more territory.

You getting your history from the KKK this week?

Fascinating.

No, I pretty much watched it happen. The papers, newsmagazines and teevee
actually reported actual news back in those days.

Thanks anyway.
Rich

On Dec 4, 8:10*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
...
Of course, if they had any gratitude for being rescued from Hitler, they
certainly have a weird way of expressing it - the first thing they did
when they got their own country was starting to attack their neighbors
because they wanted to take over more territory.
.... Rich

The 1948 was was considerably more complicated than that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Legion

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 22:10:31 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:10:59 -0800, Rich Grise
Gunner Asch wrote:

Sure.
I admire a country the size of a postage stamp that has held its own
against virtually Every neighbor who has come along and tried to kill
them, often times in packs of multiple neighbors..and each time that
little fellow kicked the **** out of them and then simply let them trot
their beaten asses home.

Of course, if they had any gratitude for being rescued from Hitler, they
certainly have a weird way of expressing it - the first thing they did
when they got their own country was starting to attack their neighbors
because they wanted to take over more territory.

You getting your history from the KKK this week?

Fascinating.

No, I pretty much watched it happen. The papers, newsmagazines and teevee
actually reported actual news back in those days.

Thanks anyway.
Rich

Then you wont have any trouble providing links and cites.

Ill be waiting for them

Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 05:20:44 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Dec 4, 8:10*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
...
Of course, if they had any gratitude for being rescued from Hitler, they
certainly have a weird way of expressing it - the first thing they did
when they got their own country was starting to attack their neighbors
because they wanted to take over more territory.
... Rich

The 1948 was was considerably more complicated than that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Legion

And dont forget this bit of butchery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre

Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:10:59 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Sure.
I admire a country the size of a postage stamp that has held its own
against virtually Every neighbor who has come along and tried to kill
them, often times in packs of multiple neighbors..and each time that
little fellow kicked the **** out of them and then simply let them trot
their beaten asses home.

Of course, if they had any gratitude for being rescued from Hitler, they
certainly have a weird way of expressing it - the first thing they did
when they got their own country was starting to attack their neighbors
because they wanted to take over more territory.

On the American Taxpayers' Dime!

I say, cut off all foreign aid.

While we have massive deficits, debt, poor, and hungry in our own
country? Damned straight.

--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London

On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 05:37:31 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 05:20:44 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Dec 4, 8:10*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
...
Of course, if they had any gratitude for being rescued from Hitler, they
certainly have a weird way of expressing it - the first thing they did
when they got their own country was starting to attack their neighbors
because they wanted to take over more territory.
... Rich

The 1948 was was considerably more complicated than that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Legion

And dont forget this bit of butchery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre

Look at the 3 dates. Which preceded which?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dawayima_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

But isn't this simply more proof that these folks have been after each
other's throats for thousands of years? Can't we all just get along?

--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London