[Donovan Digital]

Howdy folks

I am the secretary of the Robotics Club at Passaic County Community
College in Paterson, NJ. Due to federal largesse we will shortly be
coming into some cash. It has fallen to me to specify a preliminary
loadout for machine shop tools as follows;

Drill Press - max. price $2.5k
Lathe - max. price $2.5k
CNC cutter - max. price $1.5k

Additional considerations;

Are these tools a good basic start? given the fact that no machinist
classes are offered at the school I'd like to build toward something
that is likely to be encountered in a professional environment.

Are my prices realistic? I have never bought anything remotely like
this, but I can easily imagine buying barely-tolerable stuff for this
budget and later learning I could have had the good stuff for an
additional $500.

What structural considerations are at play in the operation of machine
tools? Is special ventilation required or can we set up a fan with a
hose to a window? Are there such things as deployable units?

What specs should I use to determine quality/suitability? What
manufacturers, if any, should I reject on sight?

Many thanks in advance for any help

Sincerely

Joseph Stavitsky
Secretary
DaVinci Robotics club
Passaic County Community College

[Don Foreman]

On Fri, 1 Oct 2010 19:23:42 -0700 (PDT), Donovan Digital
wrote:

Howdy folks

I am the secretary of the Robotics Club at Passaic County Community
College in Paterson, NJ. Due to federal largesse we will shortly be
coming into some cash. It has fallen to me to specify a preliminary
loadout for machine shop tools as follows;

Drill Press - max. price $2.5k
Lathe - max. price $2.5k
CNC cutter - max. price $1.5k

Additional considerations;

Are these tools a good basic start? given the fact that no machinist
classes are offered at the school I'd like to build toward something
that is likely to be encountered in a professional environment.

Are my prices realistic? I have never bought anything remotely like
this, but I can easily imagine buying barely-tolerable stuff for this
budget and later learning I could have had the good stuff for an
additional $500.

What structural considerations are at play in the operation of machine
tools? Is special ventilation required or can we set up a fan with a
hose to a window? Are there such things as deployable units?

What specs should I use to determine quality/suitability? What
manufacturers, if any, should I reject on sight?

Many thanks in advance for any help

Sincerely

Joseph Stavitsky
Secretary
DaVinci Robotics club
Passaic County Community College

This is too extensive a subject to cover with newsgroup posts. Enlist
the help of one of the N.J. posters here who knows something about
machine tools. One such is Ed Huntress. I think he doesn't live far
from Paterson. There are probably others too. One of his first
questions will probably be "what do you want to do/make/accomplish
with your machine tools?"

[John]

Donovan Digital wrote:
Howdy folks

I am the secretary of the Robotics Club at Passaic County Community
College in Paterson, NJ. Due to federal largesse we will shortly be
coming into some cash. It has fallen to me to specify a preliminary
loadout for machine shop tools as follows;

Drill Press - max. price $2.5k
Lathe - max. price $2.5k
CNC cutter - max. price $1.5k

Additional considerations;

Are these tools a good basic start? given the fact that no machinist
classes are offered at the school I'd like to build toward something
that is likely to be encountered in a professional environment.

Are my prices realistic? I have never bought anything remotely like
this, but I can easily imagine buying barely-tolerable stuff for this
budget and later learning I could have had the good stuff for an
additional $500.

What structural considerations are at play in the operation of machine
tools? Is special ventilation required or can we set up a fan with a
hose to a window? Are there such things as deployable units?

What specs should I use to determine quality/suitability? What
manufacturers, if any, should I reject on sight?

Many thanks in advance for any help

Sincerely

Joseph Stavitsky
Secretary
DaVinci Robotics club
Passaic County Community College



Rather than buying a drillpress I would recommend a good used Bridgeport
type mill with a digital readout (DRO) which will give you your drilling
capacity as well as milling. The digital readout gives you accurate
positioning and makes life easier for laying out hole patterns and the
like. Some DRO's will automaticly compute the hole locations after you
punch in the hole circle diameter and number of holes.

I'm not sure what you mean by a cnc cutter but any cnc machine that is a
decent unit is going to go for much more than the figure you suggest.

YOu should first decide what you are going to cut with the machines, how
big and what material. Aluminum is much easier to cut than some other
materials. The other thing you must consider is what tooling you will
need to go with the machines. For instance with the lathe you would
possibly need a steady rest, three and four jaw chuck, maybe a collet
nose, and a bunch of toolholders and some type of quick change toolpost,
as well as some morse tapers and drillchuck.


A bandsaw will probably be handy to have unless you order you metal
precut to size. Again, it all depends on what you intend to do in the shop.


John

[DoN. Nichols[_2_]]

First off -- based on the headers, it does not appear to be crossposted,
but rather (perhaps) multi-posted. As a result, you will not get
cross-fertilization of debate between the two newsgroups. I presume
that the forum in question is a web based forum, while
rec.crafts.metalworking is a usenet newsgroup which may also appear in
Google's list of newsgroups gatewayed to "google groups". I am seeing
it in usenet, not on Google -- and you will be losing a certain
percentage of possible respondents, because a lot of trolls and spamers
post from Google, so many have set up killfiles to not show them article
posted from Google.

On 2010-10-02, Donovan Digital wrote:
Howdy folks

I am the secretary of the Robotics Club at Passaic County Community
College in Paterson, NJ. Due to federal largesse we will shortly be
coming into some cash. It has fallen to me to specify a preliminary
loadout for machine shop tools as follows;

Drill Press - max. price $2.5k
Lathe - max. price $2.5k
CNC cutter - max. price $1.5k

??? There are lots of things which are CNC. There are lathes,
Miling machines, wire EDM, plasma cutters, waterjet cutters, etc.

Assuming that all machines are for roughly the same size of
workpieces, I would consider that the lathe should cost significantly
more than the drill press, and until we know what kind of CNC machine
you really have in mind, no bets there -- except that CNC tends to do
nasty things to the cost -- unless it is done as a home conversion
project.

Additional considerations;

Are these tools a good basic start? given the fact that no machinist
classes are offered at the school I'd like to build toward something
that is likely to be encountered in a professional environment.

I would consider a milling machine to be a good thing to have in
addition to lathe and drill press. *Maybe* this is what you are calling
a cutter. But for pricing -- bear in mind:

1) a drill press moves in one axis (the drill bit moving down
towards the workpiece while rotating,

2) the lathe moves in two axes (cutting tool moved along the bed
towards the headstock (to form a cylinder or cut threads) and
across the bed to adjust the diameter, or to face off or part
off the workpiece. The cutter moves slowly relative to the
rotating (spinning) workpiece, cutting material from the surface
of the workpiece, and leaving a cylindrical surface -- either on
the OD or boring an ID.

3) The milling machine moves in thee axes (X and Y to position
the cutter relative to the workpiece, and Z to determine depth
of cut. The cutter in a milling machine rotates like that in a
drill press.

For each axis, you need more positioning equipment, and more
rigidity, so the order of cost for similar workpiece sizes would be:

1) Drill press (cheapest)

2) Lathe (more expensive)

3) Milling machine (most expensive).


Add factory CNC to either of the latter two and you do terrible
things to the price.

Are my prices realistic?

What sizes? And are you talking *new* prices, or used machine
tools?

Your prices seem high for a typical size drill press, perhaps a
reasonable value or a bit low for a medium size lathe, and *way* too low
for whatever kind of "cutter" you want with CNC -- except perhaps for a
little benchtop milling machine with CNC built from a PC.

I have never bought anything remotely like
this, but I can easily imagine buying barely-tolerable stuff for this
budget and later learning I could have had the good stuff for an
additional $500.

You need to know what size of workpieces you intend to work on.
From that, you can select sizes of machine tools.

What structural considerations are at play in the operation of machine
tools? Is special ventilation required or can we set up a fan with a
hose to a window? Are there such things as deployable units?

A good sized lathe or milling machine should have reinforced
concrete or a filled end-grain wood floor above concrete. Bench lathes
and milling machines just need a respectably strength bench -- and most
drill presses (before you get into radial drill presses) will go just
about anywhere.

You will need three phase electrical power (240 VAC three phase)
for serious machines, though you can find machines to run on single
phase 120 VAC at some loss in capability.

If you get into serious industrial sized machines, you will need
coolant -- and if you use mist coolant you need ventilation to keep it
out of the people's lungs. Serious CNC milling machines and lathes are
enclosed to keep the splashes of coolant under control.

If your "cutter" is a plasma cutter -- I suspect that you will
need special ventilation. Let someone who works with them answer that.

What specs should I use to determine quality/suitability? What

What do you need it to do? Until you know that, what might work
very well for one size of project will not do anything satisfactory for
a larger one.

manufacturers, if any, should I reject on sight?

Unfortunately, until you get into *serious* industrial machine
tools, most of what is available *new* will be Chinese imports, and all
of these should be viewed as a "pre-assembled kit". You have to take
them apart, file off burrs, and clean out sand and grit before
re-assembling and using them. And this requires someone who knows the
machines.

Good Luck,
Don.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

[[email protected]]

On Oct 1, 10:23*pm, Donovan Digital wrote:
Howdy folks

I am the secretary of the Robotics Club at Passaic County Community
College in Paterson, NJ. Due to federal largesse we will shortly be
coming into some cash. It has fallen to me to specify a preliminary
loadout for machine shop tools as follows;

Drill Press - max. price $2.5k
Lathe - max. price $2.5k
CNC cutter - max. price $1.5k

Additional considerations;


Many thanks in advance for any help

Sincerely

Joseph Stavitsky
Secretary
DaVinci Robotics club
Passaic County Community College

Do you have a shop now? If you do then talk to the people that
currently use the shop. If not then there are a lot of tools needed
before getting a lathe. Things as some sturdy benches, good vises, a
metal cutting bandsaw, a drill press, bench grinder, small belt
sander, small torch, mig welder.

I disagree with John on buying a Bridgeport mill instead of a drill
press. If you have a mill, someone will be using it for milling and
someone that needs to drill a few holes will have to wait. And a
drill press is something you can give a few minutes of instruction to
a 16 year old and then let him/her use it. Suitable drill presses are
not expensive.

Dan

[axolotl[_2_]]

On 10/1/2010 10:23 PM, Donovan Digital wrote:
Howdy folks

I am the secretary of the Robotics Club at Passaic County Community
College in Paterson, NJ. Due to federal largesse we will shortly be
coming into some cash. It has fallen to me to specify a preliminary
loadout for machine shop tools as follows;

Drill Press - max. price $2.5k
Lathe - max. price $2.5k
CNC cutter - max. price $1.5k

Additional considerations;

Are these tools a good basic start? given the fact that no machinist
classes are offered at the school I'd like to build toward something
that is likely to be encountered in a professional environment.

Are my prices realistic? I have never bought anything remotely like
this, but I can easily imagine buying barely-tolerable stuff for this
budget and later learning I could have had the good stuff for an
additional $500.p

What structural considerations are at play in the operation of machine
tools? Is special ventilation required or can we set up a fan with a
hose to a window? Are there such things as deployable units?

What specs should I use to determine quality/suitability? What
manufacturers, if any, should I reject on sight?

(Dad mode)

The first step is to find out what questions to ask.

What do you anticipate building? From there you can determine what it
will take to get there. You are only concerned with machine tools. Does
that mean you already have the hand tools, workbenches and storage
cabinets? Is your school going to put in the power required to operate
the machines? Who is going to provide the training (safety and operation)?

Time for a road trip. Reach out to your brothers and sisters at schools
that have good robotics programs; visit their shops, see what they are
building, get copies of their safety training (keep in mind that your
college will probably not let you operate without it), and determine
what will work for you. If you have time, go to the Cabin Fever Expo in
January to look at stuff and talk to people that make things.

At that point you may be able to make a shopping list. 6.5K will not get
you much in the CNC world.

If the terms of your grant allow it, you would probably be better off
finding a used machinery dealer who will have mercy on you and fix you
up with a package that includes the tooling you will require to actually
make anything with the machines. I do not know any machine tool dealers
in north Jersey. Perhaps one of the other guys up north (Joe?) can point
you to someone relatively honest.

If you ask nicely you may find a retired professional that will look in
on you occasionally for the good of his or her soul.

Olin College of Engineering does a lot of robotics work; here is a link
to the machine shop:

http://machineshop.olin.edu/index.html

Harvey Mudd on the west coast:

http://www.eng.hmc.edu/E8/Shops/MachineIndex.htm

Fortune favors the prepared.


Kevin Gallimore



Kevin Gallimore

[Donovan Digital]

Gentlemen

Many thanks for the informative and helpful suggestions. I feel more
enlightened already.

To business;

Re Ed Huntress: Sounds like an excellent person to get in touch with.
Any contact info for him?

Re used: not an option for educational institution purchasing

Re cnc machine: what we're looking for is a cnc router. Examination of
relevant websites (www.shopbottools.com) reveals that the price is
unfortunately closer to what axolotl says. However, something like
this (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...hree-Axis-CNC-
Machine-Cheaply-and-/) seems like a good start and will probably be a
good fallback position if, as I suspect, we conclude that we are
biting off more than we can chew.

checking out other schools - an excellent suggestion, but not
entirely certain it's in our timeframe. Will let everyone know by next
week.

Still wondering if there are any brands I should reject out of hand.
Given my lack of relevant experience I need some way to eliminate
obviously unsuitable bids.

Also, are there "desktop" versions of any of this stuff for relatively
small work?

Again, many thanks to everyone for their intelligent and useful
suggestions.

Joseph Stavitsky
Secretary
DaVinci Robotics club
Passaic County Community College

[Wes[_5_]]

Donovan Digital wrote:

Re Ed Huntress: Sounds like an excellent person to get in touch with.
Any contact info for him?

I will forward a link to this thread to him. He has been away from this group for a few
weeks. I did get a nice picture of a bluefish he caught the other day so I know he is
alive and fishing.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

[Jim Wilkins]

On Oct 2, 1:31*pm, Donovan Digital wrote:
...
Still wondering if there are any brands I should reject out of hand.
Given my lack of relevant experience I need some way to eliminate
obviously unsuitable bids.

Also, are there "desktop" versions of any of this stuff for relatively
small work?

Joseph Stavitsky

Here are some examples of what is available:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/feat..._machines.aspx
http://www.jetwilton.com/us/manufact...&category=7170

Larger, more expensive machines will handle larger parts, which is why
people have asked you what you want to make. They start very small:
http://www.sherline.com/4000pg.htm

Personally I'd want at least a mill-drill with a table TRAVEL long
enough to drill all the important holes in the largest frame
component, without having to unclamp and move the workpiece which
destroys accuracy. Mill-drills are good for two-dimensional parts made
from sheet or plate. If you expect to work on tall, bulky parts,
reboring a small gas engine cylinder for example, a knee mill is much
better.

Mills make the framework, lathes make or modify the power transmission
components. What are your largest wheel or pulley diameter and longest
shaft length? Power transmission parts are standardized and may be
easier to buy than make, so the lathe may not be quite as important.
In my opinion the minimum practical lathe is 9" - 10".

I'd avoid the lathe/mill combinations, especially for a team.

jsw

[Donovan Digital]

Jim: Really loving the Sherline site, highly informative and looks
like a good start. Do you have hands-on experience with their
products? If so, what's your opinion?

[Wes[_5_]]

Top posting. Ed said to drop him an e-mail using below. Notice the obsfucation and the
clue under the address.

Ed would like a phone number and a good time to call you


remove the 3 for real e-mail address



Donovan Digital wrote:

Howdy folks

I am the secretary of the Robotics Club at Passaic County Community
College in Paterson, NJ. Due to federal largesse we will shortly be
coming into some cash. It has fallen to me to specify a preliminary
loadout for machine shop tools as follows;

Drill Press - max. price $2.5k
Lathe - max. price $2.5k
CNC cutter - max. price $1.5k

Additional considerations;

Are these tools a good basic start? given the fact that no machinist
classes are offered at the school I'd like to build toward something
that is likely to be encountered in a professional environment.

Are my prices realistic? I have never bought anything remotely like
this, but I can easily imagine buying barely-tolerable stuff for this
budget and later learning I could have had the good stuff for an
additional $500.

What structural considerations are at play in the operation of machine
tools? Is special ventilation required or can we set up a fan with a
hose to a window? Are there such things as deployable units?

What specs should I use to determine quality/suitability? What
manufacturers, if any, should I reject on sight?

Many thanks in advance for any help

Sincerely

Joseph Stavitsky
Secretary
DaVinci Robotics club
Passaic County Community College

[Jim Wilkins]

On Oct 2, 9:34*pm, Donovan Digital wrote:
Jim: Really loving the Sherline site, highly informative and looks
like a good start. Do you have hands-on experience with their
products? If so, what's your opinion?

I had a Sherline lathe and mill and a Prazi lathe clone to play with
for a while. At the time I was making mostly small electronics parts
from aluminum or brass, for which they worked well. They were
seriously inadequate for making steel power transmission components
larger than toy size.

This is my exposure to robots:
http://rmp.segway.com/

My 10" lathe and small knee mill are barely large enough to work on
them, if I had to. My mill is the 1950's American original of these:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Vertical-Mill/G3102
I had an older Enco version of it in a model shop I ran. The low
quality of the small parts on it keeps me from recommending it, but it
had the potential to be a good choice for a hobbyist or small shop
that can't handle the weight and size of a Bridgeport. The RF-31 mill-
drill I bought for another shop had more X and Y axis capacity for
drilling plates accurately.

If you are making robots to teach the principles and can scale them
down you might get away with a lathe and mill the size of mine or
smaller. When I design a machine to do real work I have to compromise
to stay within their limited capacity:
http://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/H...65918437561074

jsw

[Wes[_5_]]

axolotl wrote:

(Dad mode)

The first step is to find out what questions to ask.

What do you anticipate building? From there you can determine what it
will take to get there. You are only concerned with machine tools. Does
that mean you already have the hand tools, workbenches and storage
cabinets? Is your school going to put in the power required to operate
the machines? Who is going to provide the training (safety and operation)?

I got an e-mail from Ed with some details. Doesn't sound like they have a lot of room and
it is upstairs. It also sounds like they need to spend the money quickly so I'm thinking
this is a what from the "insert your favorite supply souce" would you buy to get them set
up and running. Grizzly, ENCO, whatever model numbers.


###
On to other things: I visited Joe and the guys at Passaic County College.

They have to spend their money by next week -- it's $7,000, may be $10,000.
Maybe you can help out by asking for recommendations on the NG. They need a
mill, a lathe, a drillpress and a 4x6 bandsaw, and they have a very small
space, 2nd floor of a classroom building. Maybe a combination machine is the
trick. They don't have a lot of machining to do -- those robots are mostly
made from aluminum plate and extrusions. They're not into fighting robots.

###


Thanks,

Wes

[axolotl[_2_]]

On 10/16/2010 3:11 PM, Wes wrote:
wrote:

(Dad mode)

The first step is to find out what questions to ask.

What do you anticipate building? From there you can determine what it
will take to get there. You are only concerned with machine tools. Does
that mean you already have the hand tools, workbenches and storage
cabinets? Is your school going to put in the power required to operate
the machines? Who is going to provide the training (safety and operation)?

I got an e-mail from Ed with some details. Doesn't sound like they have a lot of room and
it is upstairs. It also sounds like they need to spend the money quickly so I'm thinking
this is a what from the "insert your favorite supply souce" would you buy to get them set
up and running. Grizzly, ENCO, whatever model numbers.


###
On to other things: I visited Joe and the guys at Passaic County College.

They have to spend their money by next week -- it's $7,000, may be $10,000.
Maybe you can help out by asking for recommendations on the NG. They need a
mill, a lathe, a drillpress and a 4x6 bandsaw, and they have a very small
space, 2nd floor of a classroom building. Maybe a combination machine is the
trick. They don't have a lot of machining to do -- those robots are mostly
made from aluminum plate and extrusions. They're not into fighting robots.


Ten grand. Now the answer is easy. Tormach.

Kevin Gallimore