I called Bridgeport (division of Hardinge now) and spoke to customer
support. I asked a lady if they have schematic for the electrical
cabinet and repair manual. To my great surprise, she said that they
likely have the manual and that she will email it to me today. I hope
that it works and I get something.

i

"Ignoramus16651" wrote in message
...
I called Bridgeport (division of Hardinge now) and spoke to customer
support. I asked a lady if they have schematic for the electrical
cabinet and repair manual. To my great surprise, she said that they
likely have the manual and that she will email it to me today. I hope
that it works and I get something.

i

Hardinge has always had extra great customer service. My only problem is the
parts must be gold plated. That's the only way they could cost that much.
I've purchased a few items. It turned out cheaper to buy an entire donor
machine. So far, I've been lucky, everything I've robbed from the donor was
in good shape.

I'm sure you don't want to buy control parts.

Karl

On 2010-04-08, Karl Townsend wrote:

"Ignoramus16651" wrote in message
...
I called Bridgeport (division of Hardinge now) and spoke to customer
support. I asked a lady if they have schematic for the electrical
cabinet and repair manual. To my great surprise, she said that they
likely have the manual and that she will email it to me today. I hope
that it works and I get something.

Hardinge has always had extra great customer service. My only problem is the
parts must be gold plated. That's the only way they could cost that much.
I've purchased a few items. It turned out cheaper to buy an entire donor
machine. So far, I've been lucky, everything I've robbed from the donor was
in good shape.

I'm sure you don't want to buy control parts.

Karl, I want the schematic to figure out what to do with the
control. If I retrofit the mill, I will need to know how to control
the spindle contactors, etc. There is also a big row of relays of
unknown purpose. One person said they may be limiting relays.

i

On Apr 8, 1:21*pm, Ignoramus16651 ignoramus16...@NOSPAM.
16651.invalid wrote:
I called Bridgeport (division of Hardinge now) and spoke to customer
support. I asked a lady if they have schematic for the electrical
cabinet and repair manual. To my great surprise, she said that they
likely have the manual and that she will email it to me today. I hope
that it works and I get something.

i

That IS a pleasant surprise. Please be sure to let us know wheter you
actually receive it.

On 2010-04-08, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 8, 1:21?pm, Ignoramus16651 ignoramus16...@NOSPAM.
16651.invalid wrote:
I called Bridgeport (division of Hardinge now) and spoke to customer
support. I asked a lady if they have schematic for the electrical
cabinet and repair manual. To my great surprise, she said that they
likely have the manual and that she will email it to me today. I hope
that it works and I get something.

i

That IS a pleasant surprise. Please be sure to let us know wheter you
actually receive it.

Not so far. I fI do not get it today, I will call them tomorrow.

i

On 2010-04-08, spaco wrote:
There was an article or series of articles in the Home Shop Machinist
some years ago where the author detailed methods of converting some of
the those semi automatic Bridgeports to manual machines.

If that's what you have and if you are interested, email me off list
and I will try to dig up the articles if you don't already have them.

Ideally, I would like to run it as a CNC machine with a Linux based
control.

Less ideally, I would like to fix the monitor, which is what is
supposed to be bad in this machine.

It has handles and dials that would let me use it manually.

i

what kind of monitor? why is it hard to just fix it?

"Ignoramus16651" wrote in message
...
On 2010-04-08, spaco wrote:
There was an article or series of articles in the Home Shop Machinist
some years ago where the author detailed methods of converting some of
the those semi automatic Bridgeports to manual machines.

If that's what you have and if you are interested, email me off list
and I will try to dig up the articles if you don't already have them.

Ideally, I would like to run it as a CNC machine with a Linux based
control.

Less ideally, I would like to fix the monitor, which is what is
supposed to be bad in this machine.

It has handles and dials that would let me use it manually.

i

On 2010-04-08, Bill Noble wrote:
what kind of monitor? why is it hard to just fix it?

It is some kind of old EGA monitor, like those found on "IBM PC XT".

i


"Ignoramus16651" wrote in message
...
On 2010-04-08, spaco wrote:
There was an article or series of articles in the Home Shop Machinist
some years ago where the author detailed methods of converting some of
the those semi automatic Bridgeports to manual machines.

If that's what you have and if you are interested, email me off list
and I will try to dig up the articles if you don't already have them.

Ideally, I would like to run it as a CNC machine with a Linux based
control.

Less ideally, I would like to fix the monitor, which is what is
supposed to be bad in this machine.

It has handles and dials that would let me use it manually.

i

Karl, I want the schematic to figure out what to do with the
control. If I retrofit the mill, I will need to know how to control
the spindle contactors, etc. There is also a big row of relays of
unknown purpose. One person said they may be limiting relays.

Don't waste your time. Go nuclear. Then just trace the few wires to find out
where they go. I make a small exception if you have a lot of outputs. In
this case, close the coil with a hot wire and find out what clicks where.
Then ID it. The outputs are normally all together and you can leave these
relays in place if you aren't using Opto 22 outs. In my case, I wire all the
I/Os to Opto 22 boards - a real good idea to have opto isolation. Your
spindle is almost certainly a three phase motor - put a VFD in to run it and
get rid of all the reversing contactor baloney.

Karl

Ignoramus16651 wrote:
On 2010-04-08, Bill Noble wrote:
what kind of monitor? why is it hard to just fix it?

It is some kind of old EGA monitor, like those found on "IBM PC XT".
Yeah, our old Bridgeport/Romi lathe with EZ-Trak control has an ANCIENT
B&W EGA display with 9-pin plug. When it went out, I took it over to my
bench and found some solder joints in the HV/horiz. sweep circuit had
partially melted and fatigued, and resoldered them. To my surprise, the
monitor came back to life and is still working after quite a few years.
If you troll the consumer electronic junk swap meets you may be able to
find a compatible monitor. Some of the older NEC multi-sync monitors
will go down to EGA sweep rates. You ought to put a scope on the H and
V sync pins and find out what the actual H sweep rate is, then you can
look for a monitor that will work.

My old PC book says the EGA sweep rates were 15.75 - 21.85 KHz, MCGA was
31.5 and the original VGA was also 31.5 KHz.

Jon

Ignoramus16651 wrote:
I called Bridgeport (division of Hardinge now) and spoke to customer
support. I asked a lady if they have schematic for the electrical
cabinet and repair manual. To my great surprise, she said that they
likely have the manual and that she will email it to me today. I hope
that it works and I get something.
I've lost track, but isn't that machine you just bought an Interact? I
don't think the complete machine was made by Bridgeport, only the iron.
So, Bridgeport/Hardinge won't have info on that. I know the control
is Heidenhain, it doesn't seem logical Bridgeport would supply controls
that competed with their own BOSS series, but maybe I'm wrong, as the
Interact machines DO say "Bridgeport" all over them.

Jon

Ignoramus16651 wrote:
On 2010-04-08, Bill Noble wrote:
what kind of monitor? why is it hard to just fix it?

It is some kind of old EGA monitor, like those found on "IBM PC XT".

If you can't fix it or find a replacement, google "scan converters" --
there may be a box you could put between the processor and a new VGA
monitor that'd make it all work.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

On 2010-04-08, Karl Townsend wrote:

Karl, I want the schematic to figure out what to do with the
control. If I retrofit the mill, I will need to know how to control
the spindle contactors, etc. There is also a big row of relays of
unknown purpose. One person said they may be limiting relays.

Don't waste your time. Go nuclear. Then just trace the few wires to find out
where they go. I make a small exception if you have a lot of outputs. In
this case, close the coil with a hot wire and find out what clicks where.
Then ID it. The outputs are normally all together and you can leave these
relays in place if you aren't using Opto 22 outs. In my case, I wire all the
I/Os to Opto 22 boards - a real good idea to have opto isolation. Your
spindle is almost certainly a three phase motor - put a VFD in to run it and
get rid of all the reversing contactor baloney.

It is three phase. If I can get a manual, I cuold decide intelligently
on what to keep and what not to keep. In any case, ilmit switches seem
like an essential safety feature.

i

On 2010-04-08, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus16651 wrote:
On 2010-04-08, Bill Noble wrote:
what kind of monitor? why is it hard to just fix it?

It is some kind of old EGA monitor, like those found on "IBM PC XT".
Yeah, our old Bridgeport/Romi lathe with EZ-Trak control has an ANCIENT
B&W EGA display with 9-pin plug. When it went out, I took it over to my
bench and found some solder joints in the HV/horiz. sweep circuit had
partially melted and fatigued, and resoldered them. To my surprise, the
monitor came back to life and is still working after quite a few years.
If you troll the consumer electronic junk swap meets you may be able to
find a compatible monitor. Some of the older NEC multi-sync monitors
will go down to EGA sweep rates. You ought to put a scope on the H and
V sync pins and find out what the actual H sweep rate is, then you can
look for a monitor that will work.

My old PC book says the EGA sweep rates were 15.75 - 21.85 KHz, MCGA was
31.5 and the original VGA was also 31.5 KHz.

I do not think that monitors have the sweep rate info on them
anywhere.

i

On 2010-04-08, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus16651 wrote:
I called Bridgeport (division of Hardinge now) and spoke to customer
support. I asked a lady if they have schematic for the electrical
cabinet and repair manual. To my great surprise, she said that they
likely have the manual and that she will email it to me today. I hope
that it works and I get something.
I've lost track, but isn't that machine you just bought an Interact? I
don't think the complete machine was made by Bridgeport, only the iron.

Well, there is three subsystems to the mill:

1) Iron
2) Big control cabinet with electromechanical relays and adaptor board
that connects to the Heidenhain control
3) Heidenhain control

I am trying to get a manual for 1) and 2). I already have a manual for
3).

So, Bridgeport/Hardinge won't have info on that. I know the control
is Heidenhain, it doesn't seem logical Bridgeport would supply controls
that competed with their own BOSS series, but maybe I'm wrong, as the
Interact machines DO say "Bridgeport" all over them.

So far I got nothing. I called her again and she said that she did not
get to it yet.

i

Your chances of getting a useful manual are slim. At least for me, a pile of
complex circuit drawings takes more time to deduce than its worth, you're
tossing 90 percent of it anyway. Unless you've got a tool changer, there's
not much to figure out.

Once your control box is empty and you've pulled the resolvers off the
servos (check you may get lucky and have encoders) you'll only have about 30
wires to figure out. Ten of them will be home and limit switches and the
common to them. nearly all machines use a special wire color for common just
tracing conduit runs will ID these inputs. You'll have three wires to the
spindle. Probably a spindle brake, often 120 VAC - note these work backward,
power holds them off. Maybe a power oiler and a couple other devices. Your
final group will be from your operator panel (which you probably won't use
but I do). Again, common is almost always one wire color. I put the rest of
the wires on an opto board and start pushing buttons and watching which
input lights on the opto board. You'll have to trace the wires from your MPG
(manual pulse generator) If you do have encoders, try to find the supplier
name and look up the wiring, otherwise white is often five volts common and
red or black +5volt. Get a logic probe and start watching which ones flick
on when. Encoders have been my most troublesome unit to figure out. You
should also have an Estop and Reset button, normally separate.

You will put some of the stuff you took out back in. Your servo power supply
should be fine. You can reuse the 5 volt and 24 volt power supplies, but I
normally don't. Re use one relay to make into your Estop reset or MCR
(master control relay)

I'm sure I missed a couple items, but you get the idea.

Karl

On 2010-04-09, Karl Townsend wrote:
Your chances of getting a useful manual are slim. At least for me, a pile of

So far I got nothing at all

complex circuit drawings takes more time to deduce than its worth, you're
tossing 90 percent of it anyway. Unless you've got a tool changer, there's
not much to figure out.

No tool changer. QC30 tooling with collar.

Once your control box is empty and you've pulled the resolvers off
the servos (check you may get lucky and have encoders) you'll only
have about 30 wires to figure out.

Why do I need to pull resolvers off?

Ten of them will be home and
limit switches and the common to them. nearly all machines use a
special wire color for common just tracing conduit runs will ID
these inputs. You'll have three wires to the spindle. Probably a
spindle brake,

Definitely a brake. We already ran the spindle. It stops instantly.

often 120 VAC - note these work backward, power holds them
off. Maybe a power oiler and a couple other devices. Your final
group will be from your operator panel (which you probably won't use
but I do).

My guess is that I will try to replace it with a PC monitor and a
keyboard.

Again, common is almost always one wire color. I put the rest of the
wires on an opto board and start pushing buttons and watching which
input lights on the opto board. You'll have to trace the wires from
your MPG (manual pulse generator) If you do have encoders, try to
find the supplier name and look up the wiring, otherwise white is
often five volts common and red or black +5volt. Get a logic probe
and start watching which ones flick on when. Encoders have been my
most troublesome unit to figure out. You should also have an Estop
and Reset button, normally separate.

You will put some of the stuff you took out back in. Your servo
power supply should be fine. You can reuse the 5 volt and 24 volt
power supplies, but I normally don't. Re use one relay to make into
your Estop reset or MCR (master control relay)

I'm sure I missed a couple items, but you get the idea.

Karl, I bought those AMC servo controls that you pointed me to, on
ebay. Thanks a lot. I would think I should junk their servo control boards
too? How about linear encoders? Those, IIRC, send some kind of a
sinewave signal, not square wave. Thanks a lot. My thoughts are
somewhat solidifying.

i

Once your control box is empty and you've pulled the resolvers off
the servos (check you may get lucky and have encoders) you'll only
have about 30 wires to figure out.

Why do I need to pull resolvers off?

obsolete, encoders used today.
....
Karl, I bought those AMC servo controls that you pointed me to, on
ebay. Thanks a lot. I would think I should junk their servo control boards
too? How about linear encoders? Those, IIRC, send some kind of a
sinewave signal, not square wave. Thanks a lot. My thoughts are
somewhat solidifying.

Linear encoders can be a good thing, but you'll need quadrature output. I've
not worked with them and AFAIK, this is an advanced subject. Personally, I'd
install USdigital.com differential encoders on the servo motors. Very cost
effective.

The servo control boards may have eBay value. People are still trying to run
your old control. Junk to you. IIRC, you bought 80 VDC servo drives. You can
build a power supply for next to nothing, or maybe re-use this from your old
control.

On 2010-04-09, Karl Townsend wrote:
Once your control box is empty and you've pulled the resolvers off
the servos (check you may get lucky and have encoders) you'll only
have about 30 wires to figure out.

Why do I need to pull resolvers off?

obsolete, encoders used today.

KO, how do I get those encoders, are they a standard item?

Karl, I bought those AMC servo controls that you pointed me to, on
ebay. Thanks a lot. I would think I should junk their servo control boards
too? How about linear encoders? Those, IIRC, send some kind of a
sinewave signal, not square wave. Thanks a lot. My thoughts are
somewhat solidifying.

Linear encoders can be a good thing, but you'll need quadrature output. I've
not worked with them and AFAIK, this is an advanced subject. Personally, I'd
install USdigital.com differential encoders on the servo motors. Very cost
effective.

OK, maybe I was unclear, I was talking about the linear scales to readout
position. Same kind of thing as a DRO.

Do you have a URL handy for those encoders?

The servo control boards may have eBay value. People are still trying to run
your old control. Junk to you. IIRC, you bought 80 VDC servo drives. You can
build a power supply for next to nothing, or maybe re-use this from your old
control.

I think that I can reuse the transformer from my old control.

i

any, and I mean ANY VGA monitor will support EGA resolution - it was (is)
part of the spec - there is an adapter available so you can connect a 15 pin
cable to the 9 pin ega/cga monitor output, and the wiring for the adapter is
available on line.

As far as I know, the original XT did not support EGA, the choice was either
a CGA card that had a 9 pin and composite video with a resolution that was
really pathetic (640×200), ega went a bit higher (640×350 ) and VGA higher
still (64-X480).

wikipedia provides the pinouts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Graphics_Adapter

The other choice on XT machines was the monochrome (MDA) monitor which was a
much more useful monitor and much higher resolution - it also used a 9 pin
connector, pinouts below - note that the MDA display was frequently
destroyed by connecting it to a CGA card - but the repair is easy, replace a
$3 horizontal drive transistor - I fixed many.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Mon...isplay_Adapter

Now, what display is it that you need?

"Ignoramus16651" wrote in message
...
On 2010-04-08, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus16651 wrote:
On 2010-04-08, Bill Noble wrote:
what kind of monitor? why is it hard to just fix it?

It is some kind of old EGA monitor, like those found on "IBM PC XT".
Yeah, our old Bridgeport/Romi lathe with EZ-Trak control has an ANCIENT
B&W EGA display with 9-pin plug. When it went out, I took it over to my
bench and found some solder joints in the HV/horiz. sweep circuit had
partially melted and fatigued, and resoldered them. To my surprise, the
monitor came back to life and is still working after quite a few years.
If you troll the consumer electronic junk swap meets you may be able to
find a compatible monitor. Some of the older NEC multi-sync monitors
will go down to EGA sweep rates. You ought to put a scope on the H and
V sync pins and find out what the actual H sweep rate is, then you can
look for a monitor that will work.

My old PC book says the EGA sweep rates were 15.75 - 21.85 KHz, MCGA was
31.5 and the original VGA was also 31.5 KHz.

I do not think that monitors have the sweep rate info on them
anywhere.

i

On 2010-04-08, Ignoramus16651 wrote:
On 2010-04-08, Karl Townsend wrote:

"Ignoramus16651" wrote in message
...
I called Bridgeport (division of Hardinge now) and spoke to customer
support. I asked a lady if they have schematic for the electrical
cabinet and repair manual. To my great surprise, she said that they
likely have the manual and that she will email it to me today. I hope
that it works and I get something.

[ ... ]

I'm sure you don't want to buy control parts.

Karl, I want the schematic to figure out what to do with the
control. If I retrofit the mill, I will need to know how to control
the spindle contactors, etc. There is also a big row of relays of
unknown purpose. One person said they may be limiting relays.

You *don't* want to use the contactors for the motor if you are
building a VFD into it to give three phase.

Instead -- send TTL commands to the forward and reverse inputs
(assuming the voltage will work -- otherwise try CMOS which will go as
high as 15 V), and set aside a spare axis D/A converter in the
controller to send speed voltage commands to the VFD. Just set up the
old contactor to drop power from the VFD's *input* when the computer is
turned off.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Encoder 101:

You have a Heidenhain control. They used a great feedback idea - linear
scales. Some had quadrature feedback but most older ones had some sort of
sinewave system kind of like a resolver. That's all I know about them. But I
have read of folks converting these to quadrature. Linear scales with
quadrature feedback would be top-of-the-line. If you go this route, any
backlash will kill you (servo oscillation) but its more accurate. Heidenhain
scales bring good money on eBay. My control has a system to use two feedback
devices, I'm almost certain EMC can only use one. So you use this or a shaft
encoder, not both.

Encoders on the servo motors give feedback position also. No backlash, they
are on the motor shaft. USdigital.com makes an inexpensive kit that bolts on
the shaft extension on the back of your servos. I've not worked with
Heidenhain, make sure you have a spot and motor shaft to work with.

It helps to choose encoder counts carefully. My control counts "edges" with
four counts per encoder pulse - I think EMC does the same. I won't explain
this unless you need, Anyway, the best way to eliminate rounding errors is
to have 100,000 or 50,000 or some very even counts per inch. For example, if
your servo turns five revolutions to go one inch get 2500 pulse encoders.

Also double check that EMC can use differential encoders. These are MUCH
more noise immune. I pulled all my hair out (I'm totally bald now) over what
turned out to be encoder noise during tool change.

Karl

Ignoramus16651 wrote:

I do not think that monitors have the sweep rate info on them
anywhere.

Right, you have to look it up by model #, but most of the ancient models
are on somebody's database, on the net.

I know you have an oscilloscope from your work on the TIG welder
project, so finding the sweep rates of the CNC control should be easy,
once you get it powered up.

Jon

Ignoramus16651 wrote:
On 2010-04-09, Karl Townsend wrote:
Once your control box is empty and you've pulled the resolvers off
the servos (check you may get lucky and have encoders) you'll only
have about 30 wires to figure out.
Why do I need to pull resolvers off?
obsolete, encoders used today.

KO, how do I get those encoders, are they a standard item?

If the motors have Harowe Controls resolvers in the NEMA size 11
package, it may be hard to fit encoders in place, as they are 1.1"
(28mm) diameter. I have a resolver converter that makes them look just
like encoders to the CNC control.

Resolvers are not obsolete. They were the top choice when cost was no
object and optical encoders had light BULBS in them, as you got a servo
runaway when the bulb burned out! Now they are just more expensive, but
will run underwater, fully filled with oil and coolant, and at 150 C.
They are nearly indestructible.

If you mean linear encoders from DROs, the problem with them is the
general DRO-class encoders have low resolution, typically .01mm ~=
..0004" This is really not good enough for CNC motion control. You
generally want 10X the encoder resolution compared to displayed
resolution. I have 50 uInch resolution on my X and Y, and 25 uInch on Z
on my Bridgeport mill retrofit. You can get higher resolution linear
encoders, and now 1 micron resolution is becoming pretty affordable, but
they will still cost several hundred $ each. If your machine has
resolvers and good ballscrews, just keeping that system and using the
resolver-quadrature converter may be the easiest way to go.

Jon

Karl Townsend wrote:
My control has a system to use two feedback
devices, I'm almost certain EMC can only use one. So you use this or a shaft
encoder, not both.

Nope, not true. EMC2 out of the box doesn't do dual-loop feedback by
default, but a number of people have certainly done it. It does require
additional encoder counter inputs and a little bit of special HAL code
to link it all up.
From the www.linuxcnc.org case studies page
http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxo...-02-20-08.html
There's a lot of unrelated stuff about Stuart Stevenson's awesome shop
in Wichita, but there is also a couple paragraphs about his dual-loop
servo setup on the G&L HBM under "the Project". (By the way, he is
using my PPMC analog servo interface for this.) The hal and ini files
are on line, but I don't want to post the URL here. I could send you
these files.
Encoders on the servo motors give feedback position also. No backlash, they
are on the motor shaft. USdigital.com makes an inexpensive kit that bolts on
the shaft extension on the back of your servos. I've not worked with
Heidenhain, make sure you have a spot and motor shaft to work with.

It helps to choose encoder counts carefully. My control counts "edges" with
four counts per encoder pulse - I think EMC does the same. I won't explain
this unless you need, Anyway, the best way to eliminate rounding errors is
to have 100,000 or 50,000 or some very even counts per inch. For example, if
your servo turns five revolutions to go one inch get 2500 pulse encoders.

Well, as long as the resolution is high enough, there really is no
"roundoff" problem, at least with EMC. All calculations are done in
floating point format. Now, a low-res (.01mm) scale is just low, and
non-inch, resolution. That isn't really "roundoff" it just has position
points that don't fall on even .001" boundaries. You get .0000. .0004,
..0008, .0012, etc. readings, and nothing in between. That is why it is
good practice to spec a higher res encoder. Much easier to get there
with shaft encoders and ballscrews than linear encoders.
Also double check that EMC can use differential encoders. These are MUCH
more noise immune. I pulled all my hair out (I'm totally bald now) over what
turned out to be encoder noise during tool change.
This is entirely a function of the encoder counter board used. If it
doesn't natively support differential inputs, you can always use a US
Digital diff. receiver board, they are $12, I think.

Jon

DoN. Nichols wrote:

You *don't* want to use the contactors for the motor if you are
building a VFD into it to give three phase.

Instead -- send TTL commands to the forward and reverse inputs
(assuming the voltage will work -- otherwise try CMOS which will go as
high as 15 V), and set aside a spare axis D/A converter in the
controller to send speed voltage commands to the VFD. Just set up the
old contactor to drop power from the VFD's *input* when the computer is
turned off.
Yes, except DC SSRs work really well, and safely, for controlling the
VFD command inputs. Otherwise, I completely agree. The command inputs
are set up for contact closure type controls.

Jon