At my previous home I had a ~30 X 50 building with concrete floor that I
used for my home shop. Moved to the country maybe 5 years ago and don't
have a shop building or garage, just a car port and a wooden storage
building.

I'm trying to come up with the most cost effective home shop building I can.
I don't want to have to depend on any income from the home shop but I think
I can get some business if I get my shop set up. Part of my motivation is
that my son is now 11 and I'd like to teach him machining, controls, and
automation. The con is that every dollar I put into a shop is a dollar not
paying off something else, but may be dollars well spent (perhaps my shop
building would pay for itself and give my son some valuable experience).

So what type of building is most cost effective? (All metal, pole barn with
metal or wood skin, or ?) Would anything (wood, metal?) be good for a
smaller building for now but be expandable later if I needed more room? I
assume I need a concrete floor for the machines (I have 3 mills and 2
lathes, plus a press, welders, saw, and wood shop tools) would it be
advisable to save money with a part concrete, part rock floor?

RogerN

On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 15:53:31 -0500, RogerN wrote:

At my previous home I had a ~30 X 50 building with concrete floor that I
used for my home shop. Moved to the country maybe 5 years ago and don't
have a shop building or garage, just a car port and a wooden storage
building.

I'm trying to come up with the most cost effective home shop building I
can. I don't want to have to depend on any income from the home shop but
I think I can get some business if I get my shop set up. Part of my
motivation is that my son is now 11 and I'd like to teach him machining,
controls, and automation. The con is that every dollar I put into a
shop is a dollar not paying off something else, but may be dollars well
spent (perhaps my shop building would pay for itself and give my son
some valuable experience).

So what type of building is most cost effective? (All metal, pole barn
with metal or wood skin, or ?) Would anything (wood, metal?) be good for
a smaller building for now but be expandable later if I needed more
room? I assume I need a concrete floor for the machines (I have 3 mills
and 2 lathes, plus a press, welders, saw, and wood shop tools) would it
be advisable to save money with a part concrete, part rock floor?

RogerN

A lot depends on how much of the work you want to do yourself, and how
long you want it to last.

A wood-frame shop on a concrete pad with 'real' footings and the same
roof as your house will last as long as your house. A pole building with
a poured concrete floor won't last as long without work, but it'll be
just as nice at first (and anything can be maintained indefinitely).

Past that, if you have time and energy you can build it out of whatever
you can scrounge up -- there was at one house in Boring, Oregon that was
built out of the stub-ends of 2x4s, laid like bricks. The local stud
mill threw them away, and the homeowner worked at the mill and got them
for free. The house lasted for years until a fire unrelated to the
construction method burnt it down.

The point being that if you're going to do the work yourself you can save
some bucks by letting your choice of methods be determined by what you
can lay your hands on (and, if applicable, what the county will let you
build with).

--
www.wescottdesign.com

I think the cheapest by far is a metal skin pole barn you construct
yourself. Around here, the big box store have kits on sale all the time. I'd
build it square, 30 x 30 for example, and leave room to double the length.

Concrete is EXPENSIVE. In my barn, I got 12" diameter tubes and put big
machines on footings made with sackcrete and a mixer. Then packed class 5
gravel tight and level. Finally rubber mats to walk on. You hardly know
there's no concrete floor. FWIW, I also have a concrete floor heated shop in
the basement and garage.

Karl

On Sun, 6 Sep 2009 15:53:31 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

At my previous home I had a ~30 X 50 building with concrete floor that I
used for my home shop. Moved to the country maybe 5 years ago and don't
have a shop building or garage, just a car port and a wooden storage
building.

I'm trying to come up with the most cost effective home shop building I can.
I don't want to have to depend on any income from the home shop but I think
I can get some business if I get my shop set up. Part of my motivation is
that my son is now 11 and I'd like to teach him machining, controls, and
automation. The con is that every dollar I put into a shop is a dollar not
paying off something else, but may be dollars well spent (perhaps my shop
building would pay for itself and give my son some valuable experience).

So what type of building is most cost effective? (All metal, pole barn with
metal or wood skin, or ?) Would anything (wood, metal?) be good for a
smaller building for now but be expandable later if I needed more room? I
assume I need a concrete floor for the machines (I have 3 mills and 2
lathes, plus a press, welders, saw, and wood shop tools) would it be
advisable to save money with a part concrete, part rock floor?

RogerN

I have the same problem as you. Shrug...but then I live in Californias
high desert..so we dont get much rain or snow.

Build the building out of corrigated sheet metal, and pour the floor in
sections as you can afford them. First goes under the machine tools,
then expand it by sections under the rest of the shop.

You can, as I did, position the machines in a good working order..and
pour a small slab under each machine, leaving the rest to be filled in
as time and money permits.

The most important thing is the frame of the building and the roof.
Pipe framing with a corrigated metal roof works well, and then simply
hang Harbor Freight tarps as the walls and replace them as needed. I
should mention that used garage doors, particularly the old solid non
folding types are commonly available (cheap!) and make decent enough
walls with minimum framing needed to hold them in place. Which is what
Ive been doing.

Gunner

"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with
minimum food or water,in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing
clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---
his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
The True Believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or he dies.
He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?"

NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcome speech to new SF candidates

"RogerN" writes:

At my previous home I had a ~30 X 50 building with concrete floor that I
used for my home shop. Moved to the country maybe 5 years ago and don't
have a shop building or garage, just a car port and a wooden storage
building.

I'm trying to come up with the most cost effective home shop building I can.
I don't want to have to depend on any income from the home shop but I think
I can get some business if I get my shop set up. Part of my motivation is
that my son is now 11 and I'd like to teach him machining, controls, and
automation. The con is that every dollar I put into a shop is a dollar not
paying off something else, but may be dollars well spent (perhaps my shop
building would pay for itself and give my son some valuable experience).

So what type of building is most cost effective? (All metal, pole barn with
metal or wood skin, or ?) Would anything (wood, metal?) be good for a
smaller building for now but be expandable later if I needed more room? I
assume I need a concrete floor for the machines (I have 3 mills and 2
lathes, plus a press, welders, saw, and wood shop tools) would it be
advisable to save money with a part concrete, part rock floor?

It's hard to beat shipping containers.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
At my previous home I had a ~30 X 50 building with concrete floor that I
used for my home shop. Moved to the country maybe 5 years ago and don't
have a shop building or garage, just a car port and a wooden storage
building.

I'm trying to come up with the most cost effective home shop building I
can. I don't want to have to depend on any income from the home shop but I
think I can get some business if I get my shop set up. Part of my
motivation is that my son is now 11 and I'd like to teach him machining,
controls, and automation. The con is that every dollar I put into a shop
is a dollar not paying off something else, but may be dollars well spent
(perhaps my shop building would pay for itself and give my son some
valuable experience).

So what type of building is most cost effective? (All metal, pole barn
with metal or wood skin, or ?) Would anything (wood, metal?) be good for a
smaller building for now but be expandable later if I needed more room? I
assume I need a concrete floor for the machines (I have 3 mills and 2
lathes, plus a press, welders, saw, and wood shop tools) would it be
advisable to save money with a part concrete, part rock floor?

RogerN


Just added a 21x60 foot 'annex' to my shop. Had the grading (leveling and
compaction) done for free by my neighbor. Had the slab poured last year (4"
thick with edges deepened to 12") for $ 1,400 concrete and $ 1,500 labor.
Last month my neighbor cut all the lumber for me for 7 posts (6"x6" - 14 ft.
long), 10 rafters (2"x10" - 18 feet long). 50 purlins (2"x6" - 12 ft. long),
50 girts (2"x4" - 12 feet long). I suspect that the lumber at retail would
have cost about $800±. The metal skin (29 gage) costs $ 1.71 per foot for a
3 foot wide piece. Example: a 10ft long piece, 3 ft wide, costs $17.10.
The labor to erect all the lumber and metal skin came to $ 1,500. These are
prices for the Portland, OR area.

Stretched out the above for 2 years because of finances. Enjoyed the slab
for a whole year before the building went up. Finished produce = 18'x60'
building 12-14 feet high.

Ivan Vegvary

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
...
What's the weather like where you are?

Paul, which specialty license(s) do you hold? I am a R.C.E. and an L.S.
Ivan Vegvary

Pole barn with slab, metal building with slab, stick frame on slab,
stick frame on footings, etc. All have merit, depends a lot on your
local weather conditions (frost, rain, snow, heat, wind) and local
suppliers of both materials and labor. Around here, pole barn
construction runs around $4 a square foot for materials plus slab, plus
labor. Everything else goes up from there.

I guess I'd suggest a hard nosed system analysis. How many square feet
to you need? Dead storage space vs machine shop space vs vehicle work
space vs garage (active storage)? What temps do you have to deal with?
What temps are acceptable for winter work (machine shop needs to be
warmer than vehicle work space, etc) What kind of wall height do you
want (high for trucks, low for keeping it warm in the winter). And on to
heat, power, water, communications, etc etc.

RogerN wrote:
At my previous home I had a ~30 X 50 building with concrete floor that I
used for my home shop. Moved to the country maybe 5 years ago and don't
have a shop building or garage, just a car port and a wooden storage
building.

I'm trying to come up with the most cost effective home shop building I can.
I don't want to have to depend on any income from the home shop but I think
I can get some business if I get my shop set up. Part of my motivation is
that my son is now 11 and I'd like to teach him machining, controls, and
automation. The con is that every dollar I put into a shop is a dollar not
paying off something else, but may be dollars well spent (perhaps my shop
building would pay for itself and give my son some valuable experience).

So what type of building is most cost effective? (All metal, pole barn with
metal or wood skin, or ?) Would anything (wood, metal?) be good for a
smaller building for now but be expandable later if I needed more room? I
assume I need a concrete floor for the machines (I have 3 mills and 2
lathes, plus a press, welders, saw, and wood shop tools) would it be
advisable to save money with a part concrete, part rock floor?

RogerN

On Sep 6, 1:53�pm, "RogerN" wrote:
At my previous home I had a ~30 X 50 building with concrete floor that I
used for my home shop. �Moved to the country maybe 5 years ago and don't
have a shop building or garage, just a car port and a wooden storage
building.

RogerN

I built a shop abut 8 years ago. If I had it to do again I would make
it at least 20 X 40 instead of 20 X 20.

I too live in the desert. Buildings here have almost zero rain and
water consideration. Heat is a factor but with 12" insulation my shop
never gets below 55 degrees and 85 degrees year round. And I have AC
to make it more comfortable. A small space heater for the really cold
days. Like below 70. We are spoiled.

I used 12" steel studs, 10' high, for the walls and the same materials
for the roof. I used OSB and stucco with 1" foam for the outside walls
and OSB inside. 12" insulation throughout. There is no way I would not
have the walls as thick. I would also make the wall height 12'.

From the dimensions you listed you have enough space for a roll up
door to get big things in and out. With a 3' door for day to day use.
You may also want to consider some alternate egress for any possible
problems.

I would not use any wood at all. When I built my shop metal was 60% of
the cost of wood. Also with metal there is almost 0% waste. And a big
thing is no possible termite damage. The metal pieces can be ordered
to any size. My studs were all within 1/64" in length. I had less than
1% waste. Everything was specified and all was delivered within a
week.

Just my thoughts. I can write about things like this forever. More
about electric and other utilities if you would like.

Bob AZ

On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 16:38:00 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

"RogerN" writes:

At my previous home I had a ~30 X 50 building with concrete floor that I
used for my home shop. Moved to the country maybe 5 years ago and don't
have a shop building or garage, just a car port and a wooden storage
building.

I'm trying to come up with the most cost effective home shop building I can.
I don't want to have to depend on any income from the home shop but I think
I can get some business if I get my shop set up. Part of my motivation is
that my son is now 11 and I'd like to teach him machining, controls, and
automation. The con is that every dollar I put into a shop is a dollar not
paying off something else, but may be dollars well spent (perhaps my shop
building would pay for itself and give my son some valuable experience).

So what type of building is most cost effective? (All metal, pole barn with
metal or wood skin, or ?) Would anything (wood, metal?) be good for a
smaller building for now but be expandable later if I needed more room? I
assume I need a concrete floor for the machines (I have 3 mills and 2
lathes, plus a press, welders, saw, and wood shop tools) would it be
advisable to save money with a part concrete, part rock floor?

It's hard to beat shipping containers.


True indeed. But the average price of a 20', here in california, is
$1200, plus $500 shipping. I can build a nice 8x20' building for well
under $1700.

Gunner

"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with
minimum food or water,in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing
clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---
his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
The True Believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or he dies.
He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?"

NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcome speech to new SF candidates

I think a metal shop with C and some big steel here and there and a skin.
I'd insulate... I have insulation and chicken wire under it holding it up.

The only downside is the skylights - have screen over them. Humming birds
like to strand themselves there looking up at the bright lights.

I have to open the shop doors again - and just leave. The skylight darkens -
the sun comes in the front door and the bird flies out.

I'd reinforce the concrete - if not with steel - then with the in-cement
fibers. Mine was not and equipment has cracked the dome center fake thick
concrete.

Martin

RogerN wrote:
At my previous home I had a ~30 X 50 building with concrete floor that I
used for my home shop. Moved to the country maybe 5 years ago and don't
have a shop building or garage, just a car port and a wooden storage
building.

I'm trying to come up with the most cost effective home shop building I can.
I don't want to have to depend on any income from the home shop but I think
I can get some business if I get my shop set up. Part of my motivation is
that my son is now 11 and I'd like to teach him machining, controls, and
automation. The con is that every dollar I put into a shop is a dollar not
paying off something else, but may be dollars well spent (perhaps my shop
building would pay for itself and give my son some valuable experience).

So what type of building is most cost effective? (All metal, pole barn with
metal or wood skin, or ?) Would anything (wood, metal?) be good for a
smaller building for now but be expandable later if I needed more room? I
assume I need a concrete floor for the machines (I have 3 mills and 2
lathes, plus a press, welders, saw, and wood shop tools) would it be
advisable to save money with a part concrete, part rock floor?

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
At my previous home I had a ~30 X 50 building with concrete floor that I
used for my home shop. Moved to the country maybe 5 years ago and don't
have a shop building or garage, just a car port and a wooden storage
building.

I'm trying to come up with the most cost effective home shop building I
can. I don't want to have to depend on any income from the home shop but I
think I can get some business if I get my shop set up. Part of my
motivation is that my son is now 11 and I'd like to teach him machining,
controls, and automation. The con is that every dollar I put into a shop
is a dollar not paying off something else, but may be dollars well spent
(perhaps my shop building would pay for itself and give my son some
valuable experience).

So what type of building is most cost effective? (All metal, pole barn
with metal or wood skin, or ?) Would anything (wood, metal?) be good for a
smaller building for now but be expandable later if I needed more room? I
assume I need a concrete floor for the machines (I have 3 mills and 2
lathes, plus a press, welders, saw, and wood shop tools) would it be
advisable to save money with a part concrete, part rock floor?

RogerN



I did it 20 years ago with wood frame and 29 ga. barn metal. I did it last
year as a all metal used pipe for pole barn poles, with red iron, and 29 ga
sheets. I certainly like it better. Neither building was insulated, it was
just too expensive for my needs.

Wood frame buildings are prone to rot from cheap sheeting leaks that develop
over the years, not to mention insects and rodents. I would never do it
again.

The biggest factor is balancing your budget with your estimated for needs
for concrete and insulation. Gravel can save tons of money, but you are
going to need some concrete somewhere. I would certainly pour the entire
parameter with concrete and come in at lease a few inches at floor grade. It
will make it much easier if concrete the gravel areas later, and give you a
good seal for your sheets.

As far as weather, I'm located a little South West of StLouis in the
Southern part of Illinois. Winters are a little warmer than Chicago and we
have high humidity. Summer is too hot and winter is too cold, there's maybe
a month is spring and fall that the weather is comfortable.

My previous building has a problem with the wood rotting around the door
frame and coming loose from the concrete floor. I guess if there is no
other drawbacks an all steel building would be nice as long as rust isn't a
problem.

I'm thinking about maybe a 30 X 50 building on a 30 X 30 concrete slab.
Have a dividing wall and use 30' X 30'for the shop and the other 20' X
30'for mowers, tractors, storage.

I'm interested in doing home machining plus perhaps making some molding
machines, one to injection mold plastic and one for rubber parts. The idea
would be to make my own molds using my CNC mill and then mold the parts. I
think I could buy rubber from the tire plant I work at for a reasonable
price. They'd probably give me some scrap to experiment with. So,
depending on how things go, the shop could grow... or shrink for that
matter. A 30 X 30 shop in a 30 X 50 building sounds like a good start that
I could change as needed.

I'm wondering if I should have a company do it all or be my own contractor
and form out concrete and building separate?

Thanks for the replies!

RogerN

....
matter. A 30 X 30 shop in a 30 X 50 building sounds like a good start
that I could change as needed.

I'm wondering if I should have a company do it all or be my own contractor
and form out concrete and building separate?

In this part of the country you'd hire the building separate from the
concrete, no question. Up here (MN) they run construction specials in late
fall. Everybody trying to get one more job before winter shutdown.

Be sure and plan for doubling the size of your building. Ain't no such thing
as a shop or barn that's big enough.

Karl

It's hard to beat shipping containers.


True indeed. But the average price of a 20', here in california, is
$1200, plus $500 shipping. I can build a nice 8x20' building for well
under $1700.

Another possible is a semi trailer that lost its DOT rating. A friend got an
old reefer for $900. Already insulated and the air conditioner installed.
They look a sight though, might fit in Gunner's yard VBG

Karl

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 06:16:38 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



It's hard to beat shipping containers.


True indeed. But the average price of a 20', here in california, is
$1200, plus $500 shipping. I can build a nice 8x20' building for well
under $1700.

Another possible is a semi trailer that lost its DOT rating. A friend got an
old reefer for $900. Already insulated and the air conditioner installed.
They look a sight though, might fit in Gunner's yard VBG

Karl

Actually..Ive got a 20' Aluminum! seatrain down in Fullerton, that
needs to come up to the homestead. Ive been planning on making room for
it, and I have the spot picked out. I just dont have the $350 that they
want to haul it up empty...which means that Im gonna have to figure out
how to get the contents home as well. And its packed...tight


"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with
minimum food or water,in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing
clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---
his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
The True Believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or he dies.
He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?"

NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcome speech to new SF candidates

In article ,
"RogerN" wrote:

So what type of building is most cost effective?

Ask your farmer neighbors, if you have any. They often have a good idea
of the least expensive way to get space covered. Cost effective can be
sliced so many ways, depending what you want to do, or can stand - ie, I
built my shop from structural insulated panels, which are pretty easy to
erect for a single story with a crew of friends/neighbors and no crane.
Cost more to buy than some other options, but will cost far less to heat
in the long term. Make a very strong wall and the walls went up in two
days with inexperienced labor. Regular truss roof with regular
insulation - panels on roof require more framing, and pretty much need a
crane to put in - cranes being expensive.

Pole barn is typically considered the cheapest way to get space covered,
though the cheap steel arch buildings sometimes compete. If you can
handle really funky, a steel hoop plastic-covered greenhouse gets ground
covered, but is sort of a bitch to heat and cool. Nice light during
daytime, though.

The machines need soem sort of foundation, but that can be limited to
the machine base, and should be suited to the machine (IE, I understand
that some types of presses need huge foundations.)

For tedious, pecking away at it DIY, concrete block can work.

I assume you are in tornado country, broadly speaking - that can make
more robust building methods look more attractive. Skimpy buildings fall
apart easily.

While not anywhere near as convenient as "out the back door", renting
space somewhere nearby can be a good option (and if demand for space is
low, very cost effective), if you have farmer neighbors with disused
buildings, or an airport with empty hangars, or something like that
nearby.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

An old buddy got a decommissioned railcar. We had a good time getting
the 30,000 pound car off the low bed trailer that he hauled it home on.

Karl Townsend wrote:
It's hard to beat shipping containers.

True indeed. But the average price of a 20', here in california, is
$1200, plus $500 shipping. I can build a nice 8x20' building for well
under $1700.

Another possible is a semi trailer that lost its DOT rating. A friend got an
old reefer for $900. Already insulated and the air conditioner installed.
They look a sight though, might fit in Gunner's yard VBG

Karl

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
As far as weather, I'm located a little South West of StLouis in the
Southern part of Illinois. Winters are a little warmer than Chicago and
we have high humidity. Summer is too hot and winter is too cold, there's
maybe a month is spring and fall that the weather is comfortable.

My previous building has a problem with the wood rotting around the door
frame and coming loose from the concrete floor. I guess if there is no
other drawbacks an all steel building would be nice as long as rust isn't
a problem.

I'm thinking about maybe a 30 X 50 building on a 30 X 30 concrete slab.
Have a dividing wall and use 30' X 30'for the shop and the other 20' X
30'for mowers, tractors, storage.

I'm interested in doing home machining plus perhaps making some molding
machines, one to injection mold plastic and one for rubber parts. The
idea would be to make my own molds using my CNC mill and then mold the
parts. I think I could buy rubber from the tire plant I work at for a
reasonable price. They'd probably give me some scrap to experiment with.
So, depending on how things go, the shop could grow... or shrink for that
matter. A 30 X 30 shop in a 30 X 50 building sounds like a good start
that I could change as needed.

I'm wondering if I should have a company do it all or be my own contractor
and form out concrete and building separate?

Thanks for the replies!



What kind of welding and cutting equipment do you have, and are you
comfortable with welding 10 and 16 ga steel?

Have you ever poured a large concrete floor before? You probably want to
form it up and have it ready to pour, and have a contractor show up just to
pour and finish. The contractor may even be able to save you a few bucks on
the concrete.

Can you do your own dirt work? Perhaps rent a box blade and small excavator
locally?

Do you have access to a forklift, cherry picker or pole truck during
construction?

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 01:49:02 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

As far as weather, I'm located a little South West of StLouis in the
Southern part of Illinois. Winters are a little warmer than Chicago and we
have high humidity. Summer is too hot and winter is too cold, there's maybe
a month is spring and fall that the weather is comfortable.

My previous building has a problem with the wood rotting around the door
frame and coming loose from the concrete floor. I guess if there is no
other drawbacks an all steel building would be nice as long as rust isn't a
problem.

I'm thinking about maybe a 30 X 50 building on a 30 X 30 concrete slab.
Have a dividing wall and use 30' X 30'for the shop and the other 20' X
30'for mowers, tractors, storage.

I'm interested in doing home machining plus perhaps making some molding
machines, one to injection mold plastic and one for rubber parts. The idea
would be to make my own molds using my CNC mill and then mold the parts. I
think I could buy rubber from the tire plant I work at for a reasonable
price. They'd probably give me some scrap to experiment with. So,
depending on how things go, the shop could grow... or shrink for that
matter. A 30 X 30 shop in a 30 X 50 building sounds like a good start that
I could change as needed.

I'm wondering if I should have a company do it all or be my own contractor
and form out concrete and building separate?

Thanks for the replies!

RogerN

The extra space for mowers etc. is a great idea. If I had it to do
over, I'd do the size you're planning or something close to it. My
20x20 is wood built on a concrete slab, about 10 yrs ago or so. The
concrete was only about $400. I'm going to have to replace some of
the siding on the back wall---not now, in about five years or
so---because I didn't arrange proper drainage and the bottom of that
siding was continuously damp.

But if I had to do it over again I'd still use wood, I'd just be sure
that the vegetation at the back of the shop was removed periodically
to minimize splatter and the constant damp. The mulberry tree I cut
down when I built the shop has regrown to its original height...

Depends on how much time and money you have. At this stage of my life
(mid-50s) I am discovering that I am less willing to spend my time,
more willing to spend money. If I had it to do over I'd probably
build it myself again, but not to save money; rather, for the
enjoyment of "I did it all myself".

Best -- Terry

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
...
matter. A 30 X 30 shop in a 30 X 50 building sounds like a good start
that I could change as needed.

I'm wondering if I should have a company do it all or be my own
contractor and form out concrete and building separate?

In this part of the country you'd hire the building separate from the
concrete, no question. Up here (MN) they run construction specials in late
fall. Everybody trying to get one more job before winter shutdown.

Be sure and plan for doubling the size of your building. Ain't no such
thing as a shop or barn that's big enough.

Karl


I got pricing a few years ago from this company: http://www.tru-bilt.com/ .
My bank was familiar with them and they seemed to have a good reputation and
all. Anyway, they do the concrete work too. My previous price was a 30 X
50 building with a garage door on each end, I wanted to make it drive
through for fishing time, pull the truck in with boat attached, plug in
charge cord, be ready to go fishing on short notice.

Their price was 30 X 50 building, $13,XXX, concrete pad with some 30 tons of
rock $5000. I figured doing the wiring, lighting myself and added in
electrical materials, Grand total, including a tree removal, electricals,
lighting fixture, etc. was $22-$23K. I was denied financing due to child
support, on the debt to income ratio, with 32% of your income going to child
support it put my DTIR % too high. If they just don't count that money, as
I never see it and it's deducted before I get paid, my DTIR is pretty good.
Anyway, I'm getting my debts paid down now so my debt to income ratio should
satisfy the bank but I still hate getting a $22K+ debt.

Actually, thinking about it, maybe I should plan for a smaller shop for now
(a storage container?) and leave room for the 30 X 50 building later. Give
a small shop time to pay for itself and put up the larger building in a few
years after I'm done with child support.

RogerN

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 06:16:38 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



It's hard to beat shipping containers.


True indeed. But the average price of a 20', here in california, is
$1200, plus $500 shipping. I can build a nice 8x20' building for well
under $1700.

Another possible is a semi trailer that lost its DOT rating. A friend got an
old reefer for $900. Already insulated and the air conditioner installed.
They look a sight though, might fit in Gunner's yard VBG

Karl

Actually..Ive got a 20' Aluminum! seatrain down in Fullerton, that
needs to come up to the homestead. Ive been planning on making room for
it, and I have the spot picked out. I just dont have the $350 that they
want to haul it up empty...which means that Im gonna have to figure out
how to get the contents home as well. And its packed...tight


All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:52:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 06:16:38 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



It's hard to beat shipping containers.


True indeed. But the average price of a 20', here in california, is
$1200, plus $500 shipping. I can build a nice 8x20' building for well
under $1700.

Another possible is a semi trailer that lost its DOT rating. A friend got an
old reefer for $900. Already insulated and the air conditioner installed.
They look a sight though, might fit in Gunner's yard VBG

Karl

Actually..Ive got a 20' Aluminum! seatrain down in Fullerton, that
needs to come up to the homestead. Ive been planning on making room for
it, and I have the spot picked out. I just dont have the $350 that they
want to haul it up empty...which means that Im gonna have to figure out
how to get the contents home as well. And its packed...tight


All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)


Missed on at an auction 3 weeks ago by 5 minutes. Sigh...actually..I
thought it was a transmoglifier rather than a transporter and was
getting a soda when the bidding was going on. The Smolger Caps were off
and behind the machine.

Damniit!!!!!

And it was went for peanuts.

If I ever see that ****ing elephant again, Im gonna give him a piece of
my mind! What the hell does an elephant need a transporter for?

And who the hell brings 145 lbs of peanuts to a machine tool auction????

And Im not sure he was even a legal alien!

Gunner

"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with
minimum food or water,in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing
clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---
his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
The True Believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or he dies.
He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?"

NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcome speech to new SF candidates

On Sun, 6 Sep 2009 15:53:31 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:


So what type of building is most cost effective? (All metal, pole barn with
metal or wood skin, or ?) Would anything (wood, metal?) be good for a
smaller building for now but be expandable later if I needed more room? I
assume I need a concrete floor for the machines (I have 3 mills and 2
lathes, plus a press, welders, saw, and wood shop tools) would it be
advisable to save money with a part concrete, part rock floor?

RogerN


Given your weather, try looking at Structural Insulated Panels. Cost more than
steel sheet to buy but probably less, once you add in insulation and building
labour.

My (UK) Shop is 5"PU foam SIPs with cement bonded particle board on the
outside and OSB on the inside (R30 in US money). Almost airtight and very
comfortable. Even with your cheap power, heat and cooling savings will add up
over the years).


Mark Rand
RTFM

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:52:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 06:16:38 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



It's hard to beat shipping containers.


True indeed. But the average price of a 20', here in california, is
$1200, plus $500 shipping. I can build a nice 8x20' building for well
under $1700.

Another possible is a semi trailer that lost its DOT rating. A friend got an
old reefer for $900. Already insulated and the air conditioner installed.
They look a sight though, might fit in Gunner's yard VBG

Karl

Actually..Ive got a 20' Aluminum! seatrain down in Fullerton, that
needs to come up to the homestead. Ive been planning on making room for
it, and I have the spot picked out. I just dont have the $350 that they
want to haul it up empty...which means that Im gonna have to figure out
how to get the contents home as well. And its packed...tight


All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)

Missed on at an auction 3 weeks ago by 5 minutes. Sigh...actually..I
thought it was a transmoglifier rather than a transporter and was
getting a soda when the bidding was going on. The Smolger Caps were off
and behind the machine.

Damniit!!!!!

And it was went for peanuts.

If I ever see that ****ing elephant again, Im gonna give him a piece of
my mind! What the hell does an elephant need a transporter for?

And who the hell brings 145 lbs of peanuts to a machine tool auction????

And Im not sure he was even a legal alien!


That wasn't an elephant. In was Banquer in drag.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 19:56:12 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:52:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 06:16:38 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



It's hard to beat shipping containers.


True indeed. But the average price of a 20', here in california, is
$1200, plus $500 shipping. I can build a nice 8x20' building for well
under $1700.

Another possible is a semi trailer that lost its DOT rating. A friend got an
old reefer for $900. Already insulated and the air conditioner installed.
They look a sight though, might fit in Gunner's yard VBG

Karl

Actually..Ive got a 20' Aluminum! seatrain down in Fullerton, that
needs to come up to the homestead. Ive been planning on making room for
it, and I have the spot picked out. I just dont have the $350 that they
want to haul it up empty...which means that Im gonna have to figure out
how to get the contents home as well. And its packed...tight


All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)

Missed on at an auction 3 weeks ago by 5 minutes. Sigh...actually..I
thought it was a transmoglifier rather than a transporter and was
getting a soda when the bidding was going on. The Smolger Caps were off
and behind the machine.

Damniit!!!!!

And it was went for peanuts.

If I ever see that ****ing elephant again, Im gonna give him a piece of
my mind! What the hell does an elephant need a transporter for?

And who the hell brings 145 lbs of peanuts to a machine tool auction????

And Im not sure he was even a legal alien!


That wasn't an elephant. In was Banquer in drag.


Really? No wonder there was a lisp when he bid.


"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with
minimum food or water,in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing
clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---
his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
The True Believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or he dies.
He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?"

NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcome speech to new SF candidates

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 14:02:40 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:52:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)


Missed on at an auction 3 weeks ago by 5 minutes. Sigh...actually..I
thought it was a transmoglifier rather than a transporter and was
getting a soda when the bidding was going on. The Smolger Caps were off
and behind the machine.

Actually, it was that missing Illudium Q-23 Space Modulator...

Didn't you not-notice the not-"Earth Shattering Kaboom" that didn't
happen?

-- Bruce --

On Sep 8, 1:28*am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 14:02:40 -0700, Gunner Asch

wrote:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:52:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
* All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)

Missed on at an auction 3 weeks ago by 5 minutes. *Sigh...actually..I
thought it was a transmoglifier rather than a transporter and was
getting a soda when the bidding was going on. *The Smolger Caps were off
and behind the machine.

Actually, it was that missing Illudium Q-23 Space Modulator...

Didn't you not-notice the not-"Earth Shattering Kaboom" that didn't
happen?

-- Bruce --

Actually, that was an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator... I
don't think Illudium has a 23 isotope.

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 22:28:20 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 14:02:40 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:52:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)


Missed on at an auction 3 weeks ago by 5 minutes. Sigh...actually..I
thought it was a transmoglifier rather than a transporter and was
getting a soda when the bidding was going on. The Smolger Caps were off
and behind the machine.

Actually, it was that missing Illudium Q-23 Space Modulator...

Didn't you not-notice the not-"Earth Shattering Kaboom" that didn't
happen?

-- Bruce --


No ****? Then who got the Transporter? I wonder if the auctioneer had
done a deal with a dealer before the auction.....hummmmmm?

Gunner

"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with
minimum food or water,in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing
clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---
his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
The True Believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or he dies.
He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?"

NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcome speech to new SF candidates

rangerssuck wrote:

On Sep 8, 1:28 am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 14:02:40 -0700, Gunner Asch

wrote:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:52:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)

Missed on at an auction 3 weeks ago by 5 minutes. Sigh...actually..I
thought it was a transmoglifier rather than a transporter and was
getting a soda when the bidding was going on. The Smolger Caps were off
and behind the machine.

Actually, it was that missing Illudium Q-23 Space Modulator...

Didn't you not-notice the not-"Earth Shattering Kaboom" that didn't
happen?

-- Bruce --

Actually, that was an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator... I
don't think Illudium has a 23 isotope.


Moron! Why do you think its so explosive? It wants to return to
its natural state, and it can only do that, one way.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 19:56:12 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:52:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 06:16:38 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



It's hard to beat shipping containers.


True indeed. But the average price of a 20', here in california, is
$1200, plus $500 shipping. I can build a nice 8x20' building for well
under $1700.

Another possible is a semi trailer that lost its DOT rating. A friend got an
old reefer for $900. Already insulated and the air conditioner installed.
They look a sight though, might fit in Gunner's yard VBG

Karl

Actually..Ive got a 20' Aluminum! seatrain down in Fullerton, that
needs to come up to the homestead. Ive been planning on making room for
it, and I have the spot picked out. I just dont have the $350 that they
want to haul it up empty...which means that Im gonna have to figure out
how to get the contents home as well. And its packed...tight


All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)

Missed on at an auction 3 weeks ago by 5 minutes. Sigh...actually..I
thought it was a transmoglifier rather than a transporter and was
getting a soda when the bidding was going on. The Smolger Caps were off
and behind the machine.

Damniit!!!!!

And it was went for peanuts.

If I ever see that ****ing elephant again, Im gonna give him a piece of
my mind! What the hell does an elephant need a transporter for?

And who the hell brings 145 lbs of peanuts to a machine tool auction????

And Im not sure he was even a legal alien!


That wasn't an elephant. In was Banquer in drag.

Really? No wonder there was a lisp when he bid.


And there you were, without your anti moron gun! Shame on you.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 14:02:40 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:52:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)


Missed on at an auction 3 weeks ago by 5 minutes. Sigh...actually..I
thought it was a transmoglifier rather than a transporter and was
getting a soda when the bidding was going on. The Smolger Caps were off
and behind the machine.

Actually, it was that missing Illudium Q-23 Space Modulator...


That's pew36. Hear it, right from marivin's own mouth:

http://www.gargaro.com/MaRvInWaVs/pew36.wav


Didn't you not-notice the not-"Earth Shattering Kaboom" that didn't
happen?

-- Bruce --


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Let the Record show that Bruce L. Bergman
on or about Mon, 07 Sep 2009 22:28:20
-0700 did write/type or cause to appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the
following:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 14:02:40 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:52:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

All that stuff, and you still don't have a working transporter? ;-)


Missed on at an auction 3 weeks ago by 5 minutes. Sigh...actually..I
thought it was a transmoglifier rather than a transporter and was
getting a soda when the bidding was going on. The Smolger Caps were off
and behind the machine.

Actually, it was that missing Illudium Q-23 Space Modulator...

Didn't you not-notice the not-"Earth Shattering Kaboom" that didn't
happen?

I've heard about those. Must have been out of the building when
it happened.

Or was I in the building when it didn't happen?


"As I was climbing up the stairs
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today.
I think he is in the CIA."
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!