http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll

RBnDFW wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll


"The plant, which provides about 10% of Siberia's energy needs, was
expected to take several years and billions of roubles to fix."

I've got $15, let's fix the place.

"RBnDFW" wrote in message
...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll

holy ****, i didn't click on your link when you first posted it (assumed it
was investment advice). surprised there wasn't more interest in your
posting. you guys should check this out.
holy **** that's IN****ingCREDIBLE. the raw power. the multi-ton generator
rotor is lying in the bottom of a crater hollowed out of a solid block of
concrete. like 20,000 jackhammers unleashed in a matter of seconds.
terrible tragedy.

b.w.

William Wixon wrote:
"RBnDFW" wrote in message
...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll

holy ****, i didn't click on your link when you first posted it (assumed it
was investment advice). surprised there wasn't more interest in your
posting. you guys should check this out.
holy **** that's IN****ingCREDIBLE. the raw power. the multi-ton generator
rotor is lying in the bottom of a crater hollowed out of a solid block of
concrete. like 20,000 jackhammers unleashed in a matter of seconds.
terrible tragedy.

I was in a hurry, probably should have been more descriptive.
That hydroelectric plant wil be out of commission for at least 2 years.
It supplied all the power for the local aluminum industry, which
supplies 10% of the world aluminum supply.

"RBnDFW" wrote in message
...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll


i was hoping the opposite would be true too, "SELL aluminum". stopped by
the scrap man today, was hoping he was going to tell me aluminum prices are
off the charts, he said he's buying cast at $0.35 and extrusions at $0.50.
ok but not unbelievable. he hadn't heard about the hydroelectric dam
catastrophe in russia, i told him i read the aluminum plant near the dam
produces 30% of the world's aluminum, he told me (can't remember exactly but
it was something about) some organization in london england has stockpiles
of aluminum enough to last for the next 150 years, so he was saying aluminum
prices aren't going to fluctuate that much, at least scrap prices.

b.w.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll


The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too old to work
safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its functioning had
passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for engineering firm Power Machines

How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

On 2009-08-25, Randy wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll


The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too old to work
safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its functioning had
passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for engineering firm Power Machines

How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?

Let us now if you find anything out, I am interested.

i

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:02:49 -0400, the infamous Randy
scrawled the following:

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll


The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too old to work
safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its functioning had
passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for engineering firm Power Machines

How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?

Yabbut, they weren't Russian-built...

---
So far Mr. Obama has used his personally exciting presidency for initiatives
that are spending public money on a scale not seen since ancient Egypt.
-- Daniel Henninger
WSJ Online, 4 June 2009
"Obama's America: Too Fat to Fail
The age of the induced industrial coma."

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:29:25 -0500, Ignoramus27816
wrote:

On 2009-08-25, Randy wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll


The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too old to work
safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its functioning had
passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for engineering firm Power Machines

How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?

Let us now if you find anything out, I am interested.

i

38 years without a problem

http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=1413


Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

On Aug 25, 3:58*pm, "William Wixon" wrote:
"Randy" wrote in message

...



On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:29:25 -0500, Ignoramus27816
wrote:

On 2009-08-25, Randy wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...er-plant-death....

The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too
old to work
safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its functioning
had
passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for engineering firm Power
Machines

How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?

Let us now if you find anything out, I am interested.

i

38 years without a problem

http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=1413

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

jeez, they showed on modern marvels (or some such)(maybe it was dirty jobs?)
them replacing individual turbine blades, i can't remember if it was hoover
dam, but maybe (now i can't even remember if they were only replacing
individual blades or the entire turbine). *showed the back sides of the
blades are eroded by cavitation. *was FASCINATING to think water (i mean,
not water under 20,000 lb. of pressure like a water jet cutter) can erode
(whatever kind of) metal (it was). *i assumed after seeing that (modern
marvels/dirty jobs) they have regular (fastidious) monitoring and
maintenance.
that's what i wondered after seeing the russian video, if like a turbine
blade broke off (or part of a blade) and smashed the others on it's way out
and that ruptured the housing or sumphin'. *i mean, they replace the blades
on the hoover dam(?) i assume for a GOOD reason.
i think it's unwise to ridicule the russians, bad karma.

b.w.


Water jet cutting is usually done a pressures of 50,000 to 80,000 psi,
and an abrasive is added to enhance the cutting process.

Cavitation damage is caused by impingement pressures of 200,000 to
300,000 psi. Hard to believe, I know, but the collapsing bubble wall
forms a spike that impinges onto the surface with such velocity that
these pressures are achieved.

On modern hydraulic turbines several things can be done to decrease
and slow down this damage:

1) in cavitation prone areas use a material with a high work function
ie. a material that requires a lot of energy to remove bits. Examples
are 10% aluminum bronze and 17-4 ph heat treated stainless steel.

2) design the flow passages so that cavitation bubbles separate from
the flow guides/turbine surfaces thus, when the bubbles collapse, they
are removed from any surfaces. This is not an easy task and much
modelling work is required to get a good grip on this; even then some
of the professors get it wrong:-)).

3) add compressed air to the water just upstream of the turbine.

Old hydraulic turbines are often refurbished to increase their
efficiencies. On large machines, say 400 Mw and up, 94% efficiency is
claimed by some manufacturers.

Smaller machines are refurbished to re-establish original output.
Over the years some turbine blades may have been knocked-out or badly
bent because of ingestion of scrap iron such as steel fence posts. In
order to get the machine up-and-running as quickly as possible the
maintenance people would simply remove a diametrically opposite blade
and re-water the unit. Of course power production is seriously
impaired but electricity is produced. The full repair is then
scheduled during low water periods or when finances permit.

Modern turbine runners have odd numbers of blades or buckets and this
type of "repair" cannot be used.

Wolfgang

"Randy" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:29:25 -0500, Ignoramus27816
wrote:

On 2009-08-25, Randy wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll


The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too
old to work
safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its functioning
had
passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for engineering firm Power
Machines

How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?

Let us now if you find anything out, I am interested.

i

38 years without a problem

http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=1413


Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.



jeez, they showed on modern marvels (or some such)(maybe it was dirty jobs?)
them replacing individual turbine blades, i can't remember if it was hoover
dam, but maybe (now i can't even remember if they were only replacing
individual blades or the entire turbine). showed the back sides of the
blades are eroded by cavitation. was FASCINATING to think water (i mean,
not water under 20,000 lb. of pressure like a water jet cutter) can erode
(whatever kind of) metal (it was). i assumed after seeing that (modern
marvels/dirty jobs) they have regular (fastidious) monitoring and
maintenance.
that's what i wondered after seeing the russian video, if like a turbine
blade broke off (or part of a blade) and smashed the others on it's way out
and that ruptured the housing or sumphin'. i mean, they replace the blades
on the hoover dam(?) i assume for a GOOD reason.
i think it's unwise to ridicule the russians, bad karma.

b.w.

wolfgang wrote:
On Aug 25, 3:58 pm, "William Wixon" wrote:
"Randy" wrote in message

...



On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:29:25 -0500, Ignoramus27816
wrote:
On 2009-08-25, Randy wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...er-plant-death...
The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too
old to work
safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its functioning
had
passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for engineering firm Power
Machines
How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?
Let us now if you find anything out, I am interested.
i
38 years without a problem
http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=1413
Thank You,
Randy
Remove 333 from email address to reply.
jeez, they showed on modern marvels (or some such)(maybe it was dirty jobs?)
them replacing individual turbine blades, i can't remember if it was hoover
dam, but maybe (now i can't even remember if they were only replacing
individual blades or the entire turbine). showed the back sides of the
blades are eroded by cavitation. was FASCINATING to think water (i mean,
not water under 20,000 lb. of pressure like a water jet cutter) can erode
(whatever kind of) metal (it was). i assumed after seeing that (modern
marvels/dirty jobs) they have regular (fastidious) monitoring and
maintenance.
that's what i wondered after seeing the russian video, if like a turbine
blade broke off (or part of a blade) and smashed the others on it's way out
and that ruptured the housing or sumphin'. i mean, they replace the blades
on the hoover dam(?) i assume for a GOOD reason.
i think it's unwise to ridicule the russians, bad karma.

b.w.


Water jet cutting is usually done a pressures of 50,000 to 80,000 psi,
and an abrasive is added to enhance the cutting process.

I am sure the lake water from Lake Meade also contains some abrasives.

Cavitation damage is caused by impingement pressures of 200,000 to
300,000 psi. Hard to believe, I know, but the collapsing bubble wall
forms a spike that impinges onto the surface with such velocity that
these pressures are achieved.

On modern hydraulic turbines several things can be done to decrease
and slow down this damage:

1) in cavitation prone areas use a material with a high work function
ie. a material that requires a lot of energy to remove bits. Examples
are 10% aluminum bronze and 17-4 ph heat treated stainless steel.

2) design the flow passages so that cavitation bubbles separate from
the flow guides/turbine surfaces thus, when the bubbles collapse, they
are removed from any surfaces. This is not an easy task and much
modelling work is required to get a good grip on this; even then some
of the professors get it wrong:-)).

3) add compressed air to the water just upstream of the turbine.

Old hydraulic turbines are often refurbished to increase their
efficiencies. On large machines, say 400 Mw and up, 94% efficiency is
claimed by some manufacturers.

Smaller machines are refurbished to re-establish original output.
Over the years some turbine blades may have been knocked-out or badly
bent because of ingestion of scrap iron such as steel fence posts. In
order to get the machine up-and-running as quickly as possible the
maintenance people would simply remove a diametrically opposite blade
and re-water the unit. Of course power production is seriously
impaired but electricity is produced. The full repair is then
scheduled during low water periods or when finances permit.

Modern turbine runners have odd numbers of blades or buckets and this
type of "repair" cannot be used.

Why an odd number - harmonics?

Randy wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll


The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too old to work
safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its functioning had
passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for engineering firm Power Machines

How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?

Can't speak for Hoover, but I know for a
fact that the turbines and generators at
Wanapum Dam on the Columbia River got their
first major overhaul at right around 30 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanapum_Dam

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Randy wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll


The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too
old to work safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its
functioning had passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for
engineering firm Power Machines

How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?

Can't speak for Hoover, but I know for a
fact that the turbines and generators at
Wanapum Dam on the Columbia River got their
first major overhaul at right around 30 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanapum_Dam

The generators are pulled and checked a lot more than 30 years. When we are
Hoover Dam last Thanksgiving, they had one generator pulled. Impressive to
see the size of the armature and that is takes two traveling cranes to lift
it, and not much clearance.

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:02:49 -0400, Randy wrote:

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll


The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too old to work
safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its functioning had
passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for engineering firm Power Machines

How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.
I got a nice PPS slide show on the dam accident sent to me, if anyone
wants it, email me and I'll send it to you.

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

Randy wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:02:49 -0400, Randy wrote:

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:05:38 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ant-death-toll

The firm that built the destroyed turbine told Reuters that it was too old to work
safely. "The machine is 30 years old. All guarantees of its functioning had
passed," said Maria Aliyeva, a spokeswoman for engineering firm Power Machines
How long did the turbines at Hoover dam go before they were rebuilt?
50 years?

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.
I got a nice PPS slide show on the dam accident sent to me, if anyone
wants it, email me and I'll send it to you.


I saw that last night. Worth a look, definitely