the design concept for my plasma table water tank is almost finalized...
"The Kid" got the OK from his job to come in and use their laser and press
brake to cut and form everything. We're going with 11 gauge material.

One last question. The top plate on my captive air bladder needs to be
removable for future maintenance. Its a 6' x 10' sheet with a grid of
strips spaced 2' x 6' to fasten to. What fastener should I use? Bolts are
likely to just be rusted solid. How about pop rivets, do they drill out
easily? Will a squirt of silicone in the rivet hole seal them up (only .5
psi)? other suggestions.

Karl

On Tue, 19 May 2009 14:29:44 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

the design concept for my plasma table water tank is almost finalized...
"The Kid" got the OK from his job to come in and use their laser and press
brake to cut and form everything. We're going with 11 gauge material.

One last question. The top plate on my captive air bladder needs to be
removable for future maintenance. Its a 6' x 10' sheet with a grid of
strips spaced 2' x 6' to fasten to. What fastener should I use? Bolts are
likely to just be rusted solid. How about pop rivets, do they drill out
easily? Will a squirt of silicone in the rivet hole seal them up (only .5
psi)? other suggestions.

Karl

Stainless steel fasteners?

Gunner


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

Stainless steel fasteners?

The tank is cold rolled. Does it do any good to have a stainless screw?
Yhese would be a stone bitch to drill out when they twist off.

Karl

On Tue, 19 May 2009 15:51:59 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



Stainless steel fasteners?

The tank is cold rolled. Does it do any good to have a stainless screw?
Yhese would be a stone bitch to drill out when they twist off.

Karl


Nuts and bolts Karl...nuts and bolts.

Gunner


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 19 May 2009 14:29:44 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

the design concept for my plasma table water tank is almost finalized...
"The Kid" got the OK from his job to come in and use their laser and press
brake to cut and form everything. We're going with 11 gauge material.

One last question. The top plate on my captive air bladder needs to be
removable for future maintenance. Its a 6' x 10' sheet with a grid of
strips spaced 2' x 6' to fasten to. What fastener should I use? Bolts are
likely to just be rusted solid. How about pop rivets, do they drill out
easily? Will a squirt of silicone in the rivet hole seal them up (only .5
psi)? other suggestions.

Karl

Stainless steel fasteners?

Gunner


Stainless steel pop rivets will NOT drill out easily.
Most likely they will spin in the hole before you can drill through the head.

If you have access to the back side, a pair of vice grips can solve that.

(my spell checker choked on "plires")

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 May 2009 15:51:59 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



Stainless steel fasteners?

The tank is cold rolled. Does it do any good to have a stainless screw?
Yhese would be a stone bitch to drill out when they twist off.

Karl


Nuts and bolts Karl...nuts and bolts.

Gunner

Sorry, guess i didn't describe what i'm doing well enough. If i use screws
they would have to be self tapping into cold rolled straps.

Karl

Stainless steel pop rivets will NOT drill out easily.
Most likely they will spin in the hole before you can drill through the
head.

If you have access to the back side, a pair of vice grips can solve that.

No access. this plate makes it a captive air tank. Say, do they make a pop
rivet that doesn't leave a hollow behind. No way would i use SS pop rivets.

Karl

They make closed end pop rivets. www.mcmaster.com, put 3247 in the search
box, for examples.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...

Stainless steel pop rivets will NOT drill out easily.
Most likely they will spin in the hole before you can drill through the
head.

If you have access to the back side, a pair of vice grips can solve that.

No access. this plate makes it a captive air tank. Say, do they make a pop
rivet that doesn't leave a hollow behind. No way would i use SS pop
rivets.

Karl

Carl Ijames wrote:
They make closed end pop rivets. www.mcmaster.com, put 3247 in the search
box, for examples.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
Stainless steel pop rivets will NOT drill out easily.
Most likely they will spin in the hole before you can drill through the
head.

If you have access to the back side, a pair of vice grips can solve that.
No access. this plate makes it a captive air tank. Say, do they make a pop
rivet that doesn't leave a hollow behind. No way would i use SS pop
rivets.

Karl





Well, Carl beat be to it...

http://www.mcmaster.com/#pop-rivets/=1y4ctq
Will take you right to them.

Sealing Blind Rivets
Also known as closed-end sealing rivets; these fasteners prevent water and
air from passing through or around them. Because 100% of the mandrel is retained
they have higher shear and tensile strength than standard blind rivets of the
same size and material.
Stainless steel rivets and mandrels have excellent corrosion resistance and
may be mildly magnetic. Rivets are 18-8 stainless steel; mandrels are 400 series
stainless steel. Aluminum rivets and mandrels are corrosion resistant and
nonmagnetic. Rivets are 1100 aluminum; mandrels are 7000 series aluminum.
Aluminum rivets with steel mandrel are nonmagnetic. Rivets are corrosion
resistant and made of 5056 aluminum; mandrels are C1006-C1010 steel.

On Tue, 19 May 2009 18:01:13 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 19 May 2009 15:51:59 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



Stainless steel fasteners?

The tank is cold rolled. Does it do any good to have a stainless screw?
Yhese would be a stone bitch to drill out when they twist off.

Karl


Nuts and bolts Karl...nuts and bolts.

Gunner

Sorry, guess i didn't describe what i'm doing well enough. If i use screws
they would have to be self tapping into cold rolled straps.

Karl

For the 11 gauge plasma tank that you are building????

Gunner




"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 May 2009 18:01:13 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 19 May 2009 15:51:59 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



Stainless steel fasteners?

The tank is cold rolled. Does it do any good to have a stainless screw?
Yhese would be a stone bitch to drill out when they twist off.

Karl


Nuts and bolts Karl...nuts and bolts.

Gunner

Sorry, guess i didn't describe what i'm doing well enough. If i use screws
they would have to be self tapping into cold rolled straps.

Karl

For the 11 gauge plasma tank that you are building????

Gunner

yes, into the angle iron supports.

Karl

Well, Carl beat be to it...

yea, but he spells his name wrong.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#pop-rivets/=1y4ctq
Will take you right to them.

Sealing Blind Rivets
Also known as closed-end sealing rivets; these fasteners prevent water
and air from passing through or around them. Because 100% of the mandrel
is retained they have higher shear and tensile strength than standard
blind rivets of the same size and material.


Thanks guys, i learned something today.

Karl

On Tue, 19 May 2009 19:22:44 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 19 May 2009 18:01:13 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 May 2009 15:51:59 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



Stainless steel fasteners?

The tank is cold rolled. Does it do any good to have a stainless screw?
Yhese would be a stone bitch to drill out when they twist off.

Karl


Nuts and bolts Karl...nuts and bolts.

Gunner

Sorry, guess i didn't describe what i'm doing well enough. If i use screws
they would have to be self tapping into cold rolled straps.

Karl

For the 11 gauge plasma tank that you are building????

Gunner

yes, into the angle iron supports.

Karl

inside..or outside or on the bottom?

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

On Tue, 19 May 2009 19:25:11 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


Well, Carl beat be to it...

yea, but he spells his name wrong.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#pop-rivets/=1y4ctq
Will take you right to them.

Sealing Blind Rivets
Also known as closed-end sealing rivets; these fasteners prevent water
and air from passing through or around them. Because 100% of the mandrel
is retained they have higher shear and tensile strength than standard
blind rivets of the same size and material.


Thanks guys, i learned something today.

Karl

They are used all over sailboats btw. Hobis have at least 100 of them
holding them together.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

Karl Townsend wrote:
Stainless steel fasteners?

The tank is cold rolled. Does it do any good to have a stainless screw?
Yhese would be a stone bitch to drill out when they twist off.

Karl



Stainless hex bodied rivet nuts installed in the angle iron. Coat the
stainless bolts with teflon sealer and assemble.
Or use a captive stainless stud.

http://www.hansonrivet.com/w01.htm
Shows you a few options.

--
Steve W.

On Tue, 19 May 2009 17:41:44 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 19 May 2009 19:22:44 -0500, "Karl Townsend"... wrote:
"Gunner Asch" ... wrote ...
On Tue, 19 May 2009 18:01:13 -0500, ... Karl Townsend wrote:
"Gunner Asch" ... wrote ...
On Tue, 19 May 2009 15:51:59 -0500, "Karl Townsend"... wrote:
Stainless steel fasteners?

The tank is cold rolled. Does it do any good to have a stainless
screw? Yhese would be a stone bitch to drill out when they twist
off.

Nuts and bolts Karl...nuts and bolts.

Sorry, guess i didn't describe what i'm doing well enough. If i use
screws they would have to be self tapping into cold rolled straps.

For the 11 gauge plasma tank that you are building????

yes, into the angle iron supports.

inside..or outside or on the bottom?

Some plasma tables use air bladders to displace water to
raise or lower the water surface level; others have a two-
compartment tank with no bladder, and use compressed air to
push water out of the lower tank to raise water surface level
in the upper tank. The top part of the lower tank is air-tight
and the water transfer pipe picks up near the bottom of the tank.

I think Karl's early post in this thread talked about a bladder,
but some more recent ones give me the impression there won't be
a bladder, just the two-part-tank arrangement, with a big flat
plate dividing the parts. Although I don't know whether his
plan has the angle iron supports above or below the flat plate,
if the supports were above it I don't see how he would get it
out again later (as he apparently wants to be able to do, for
maintenance). So, I think he is looking for fasteners to hold
the plate down, air tight up to say 3 psi, on top of angle iron
supports. It seems like an alternative would be a framework that
lays in on top of the plate and bolts to the tank sides with nuts
on the outside of the tank. This would stiffen the tank sides and
wouldn't make any holes in the plate, while holding it down
against gasket material on the angle iron. Or, if angle iron
were welded along the edges of the separator plate, the gasket
would be vertical, captive between the angle and the tank wall.
If holes are drilled in place and if the walls taper out just a
bit, then bolts will fit ok and assembly/disassembly is possible.

--
jiw

On Wed, 20 May 2009 02:15:40 -0500, James Waldby wrote:

On Tue, 19 May 2009 17:41:44 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 19 May 2009 19:22:44 -0500, "Karl Townsend"... wrote:
"Gunner Asch" ... wrote ...
On Tue, 19 May 2009 18:01:13 -0500, ... Karl Townsend wrote:
"Gunner Asch" ... wrote ...
On Tue, 19 May 2009 15:51:59 -0500, "Karl Townsend"... wrote:
Stainless steel fasteners?

The tank is cold rolled. Does it do any good to have a stainless
screw? Yhese would be a stone bitch to drill out when they twist
off.

Nuts and bolts Karl...nuts and bolts.

Sorry, guess i didn't describe what i'm doing well enough. If i use
screws they would have to be self tapping into cold rolled straps.

For the 11 gauge plasma tank that you are building????

yes, into the angle iron supports.

inside..or outside or on the bottom?

Some plasma tables use air bladders to displace water to
raise or lower the water surface level; others have a two-
compartment tank with no bladder, and use compressed air to
push water out of the lower tank to raise water surface level
in the upper tank. The top part of the lower tank is air-tight
and the water transfer pipe picks up near the bottom of the tank.

I think Karl's early post in this thread talked about a bladder,
but some more recent ones give me the impression there won't be
a bladder, just the two-part-tank arrangement, with a big flat
plate dividing the parts. Although I don't know whether his
plan has the angle iron supports above or below the flat plate,
if the supports were above it I don't see how he would get it
out again later (as he apparently wants to be able to do, for
maintenance). So, I think he is looking for fasteners to hold
the plate down, air tight up to say 3 psi, on top of angle iron
supports. It seems like an alternative would be a framework that
lays in on top of the plate and bolts to the tank sides with nuts
on the outside of the tank. This would stiffen the tank sides and
wouldn't make any holes in the plate, while holding it down
against gasket material on the angle iron. Or, if angle iron
were welded along the edges of the separator plate, the gasket
would be vertical, captive between the angle and the tank wall.
If holes are drilled in place and if the walls taper out just a
bit, then bolts will fit ok and assembly/disassembly is possible.


But.....why bother with all the internal workings? Yu need at
most....3" of water under your work piece and an inch of freeboard to
make sure it doesnt drip on the floor.

IRRC...its only going to be 6x10 feet in size...and its NOT going to be
used for rocket motors and large assemblies.

If he is actually going to cut assemblies...thats another story..but
then he is going to have to have a large liftable gantry for the torch
and moving parts and that becomes a much larger issue.

Im not seeing where all the complicated stuff is involved here.

Shrug..while not a "pro"....Ive a bit of hands on with plasma tables and
the side mounted milling cutters for using the same hardware for cutting
plastics and wood on the other side of the tank.


Gunner, scratching his head in a bit of confusion apparently.

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

On Wed, 20 May 2009 00:50:15 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 20 May 2009 02:15:40 -0500, James Waldby ... wrote:
....
Some plasma tables use air bladders to displace water to raise or lower
the water surface level; others have a two- compartment tank with no
bladder, and use compressed air to push water out of the lower tank to
raise water surface level in the upper tank. The top part of the lower
tank is air-tight and the water transfer pipe picks up near the bottom
of the tank.

I think Karl's early post in this thread talked about a bladder, but
some more recent ones give me the impression there won't be a bladder,
just the two-part-tank arrangement, with a big flat plate dividing the
parts. Although I don't know whether his plan has the angle iron
supports above or below the flat plate, if the supports were above it I
don't see how he would get it out again later (as he apparently wants to
be able to do, for maintenance). So, I think he is looking for
fasteners to hold the plate down, air tight up to say 3 psi, on top of
angle iron supports. It seems like an alternative would be a framework
that lays in on top of the plate and bolts to the tank sides with nuts
on the outside of the tank. This would stiffen the tank sides and
wouldn't make any holes in the plate, while holding it down against
gasket material on the angle iron. Or, if angle iron were welded along
the edges of the separator plate, the gasket would be vertical, captive
between the angle and the tank wall. If holes are drilled in place and
if the walls taper out just a bit, then bolts will fit ok and
assembly/disassembly is possible.


But.....why bother with all the internal workings? Yu need at
most....3" of water under your work piece and an inch of freeboard to
make sure it doesnt drip on the floor.

Don't know why.

IRRC...its only going to be 6x10 feet in size...and its NOT going to be
used for rocket motors and large assemblies.

If he is actually going to cut assemblies...thats another story..but
then he is going to have to have a large liftable gantry for the torch
and moving parts and that becomes a much larger issue.

Im not seeing where all the complicated stuff is involved here.

Likewise. I was merely explaining what I think Karl is looking for,
not why.

Shrug..while not a "pro"....Ive a bit of hands on with plasma tables and
the side mounted milling cutters for using the same hardware for cutting
plastics and wood on the other side of the tank.


Gunner, scratching his head in a bit of confusion apparently.
....

--
jiw