I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:

I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

I'd suggest you take a closer look at Mach3 as well as the couple
external pulse generator modules that work with it which eliminate the
need for parallel ports as well. As you see you're already having
difficulty maintaining a system that requires ISA slots, better to
prepare for a newer setup that will work with more modern components.
Remember that Mach3 is free in code limited trial mode (~1000 lines
IIRC) so you can very easily try it out. It is also very reasonably
priced in full mode (~$150/unlimited for non commercial and
~$150/machine for commercial).

Most desktop motherboards aren't built to specification for long term
reliability. I know some motherboards have operated for many years without
failures, but long life isn't the average life.

Reliability is spec'ed in server machines that are intended to run
continuously over a long period.

The ISA bus is already old, and so are the individual special ISA hardware
cards/boards.
I'd imagine that ISA backplane boards exist, but I don't recall ever seeing
them. There may be a ISA backplane module that adapts to another buss or
port type.

There is a specialized class of industrial-duty computers similar to desktop
construction, but cased in 19" rack cases, which are airtight and cooled
without room air passing thru the cases. These systems may still be being
built with the ISA buss.

Hoarding old motherboards will only work until a failure wipes out the ISA
cards that the machines need to run on.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Pete C." wrote in message
ter.com...


I'd suggest you take a closer look at Mach3 as well as the couple
external pulse generator modules that work with it which eliminate the
need for parallel ports as well. As you see you're already having
difficulty maintaining a system that requires ISA slots, better to
prepare for a newer setup that will work with more modern components.
Remember that Mach3 is free in code limited trial mode (~1000 lines
IIRC) so you can very easily try it out. It is also very reasonably
priced in full mode (~$150/unlimited for non commercial and
~$150/machine for commercial).

On Apr 29, 7:13*am, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... *These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

You can still buy machines with ISA slots, but they are not typical
consumer machines.

One route that I often see used in industrial environments is PC/104
bus computers with a converter to the ISA bus. This was once useful as
a transition step when an ISA card was available that didn't have a PC/
104 equivalent yet. Today it is extremely unlikely to be that
combination; it's far more likely that the PC/104 card is available
new yet the ISA card hasn't been made in years.

The hardware lifecycle for PC/104 is quite a bit less frenetic than
for consumer PC stuff. Peripheral cards are likely to stay in
production for years and years, not just a few months. At work we
bought a large quantity of PC/104 stuff 7 years ago; today when the
manufacturers change board revisions they still send us updates and
often tell us which new versions are backwards compatible with the old
ones (they want to make sure we don't switch to a different
manufacturer I think!)

Tim.

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl



It's nothing more than a wag, but I would say new stuff every three years,
providing you keep the machines cool, clean, and turned on. Nothing seems to
hurt electronics more than heating and cooling cycles from turning them on
and off.

It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.

I'd suggest you take a closer look at Mach3 as well as the couple
external pulse generator modules that work with it which eliminate the
need for parallel ports as well. As you see you're already having
difficulty maintaining a system that requires ISA slots, better to
prepare for a newer setup that will work with more modern components.
Remember that Mach3 is free in code limited trial mode (~1000 lines
IIRC) so you can very easily try it out. It is also very reasonably
priced in full mode (~$150/unlimited for non commercial and
~$150/machine for commercial).

Mach3 has come a long way, but still not up to control of industrial size
commercial machines,IMHO. No closed loop servo control, can't handle large
amounts of I/O, PLC interface is still poor, custom M&Gcodes not there.
Don't want to start a ****ing match here, just explaining why I choose
another route. Redoing my existing running controls is a HUGE HUGE job. I'd
prefer to just have plenty of spare parts.

To another post, I'm also stockpiling the Galil ISA motion control card.

Maybe I should put my query another way. I'm using four computers with this
special setup. I'm well on my way to having four complete spares ready to
run. How long should I expect this level of spare parts to last? If I double
the spare level to eight, how much longer?

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl


Have you checked out the industrial computer suppliers? There's a lot
of folks in your shoes; I would expect that someone at least makes a
PC-104 carrier with a regular ISA slot.

Search on "embedded PC" and "ISA", if you haven't already.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Tim wrote:

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl



It's nothing more than a wag, but I would say new stuff every three years,
providing you keep the machines cool, clean, and turned on. Nothing seems to
hurt electronics more than heating and cooling cycles from turning them on
and off.


Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.


It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.


Around machine tools?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Karl Townsend wrote:

I'd suggest you take a closer look at Mach3 as well as the couple
external pulse generator modules that work with it which eliminate the
need for parallel ports as well. As you see you're already having
difficulty maintaining a system that requires ISA slots, better to
prepare for a newer setup that will work with more modern components.
Remember that Mach3 is free in code limited trial mode (~1000 lines
IIRC) so you can very easily try it out. It is also very reasonably
priced in full mode (~$150/unlimited for non commercial and
~$150/machine for commercial).

Mach3 has come a long way, but still not up to control of industrial size
commercial machines,IMHO.

You haven't looked closely enough then.

No closed loop servo control,

Closed loop servo is indeed available. Servo drives such as the Geckos
are closed loop and will readily fault and halt Mach3 in the event the
servo error exceeds the set threshold, just like any other servo system.

can't handle large
amounts of I/O,

It can handle more I/O than you can throw at it. There are numerous
interfaces available with plenty of I/O, Modbus, etc.

PLC interface is still poor, custom M&Gcodes not there.

It is fully customizable with a huge user and support base.

Don't want to start a ****ing match here, just explaining why I choose
another route. Redoing my existing running controls is a HUGE HUGE job. I'd
prefer to just have plenty of spare parts.

I don't know what your existing controls look like so I can't comment on
how big a job a conversion would be, but based on your incorrect
assumptions about Mach3 you may also be overestimating the conversion
effort.


To another post, I'm also stockpiling the Galil ISA motion control card.

If you insist on that route, you should be looking at newer non ISA
Galil controls.


Maybe I should put my query another way. I'm using four computers with this
special setup. I'm well on my way to having four complete spares ready to
run. How long should I expect this level of spare parts to last? If I double
the spare level to eight, how much longer?

You can expect the spares to last until the consumer grade components
like electrolytic caps die of old age, tin whiskers short connections,
internal chemical residue corrodes connections in chips, etc. Even
sealed in a static bag on a shelf the boards are aging and may not be
functional in 5 years when you try to use them.

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:17:06 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:


You haven't looked closely enough then.

No closed loop servo control,

Closed loop servo is indeed available. Servo drives such as the Geckos
are closed loop and will readily fault and halt Mach3 in the event the
servo error exceeds the set threshold, just like any other servo system.

The Geckos are a kluge that allows you to run servo motors from the
step and direction signals more commonly used for driving steppers.
Convenient under the right circumstances, but you'd sacrifice quite a
lot of the functionality that the Galil controller offers by going
that route.

--
Ned Simmons

Ned Simmons wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:17:06 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:


You haven't looked closely enough then.

No closed loop servo control,

Closed loop servo is indeed available. Servo drives such as the Geckos
are closed loop and will readily fault and halt Mach3 in the event the
servo error exceeds the set threshold, just like any other servo system.

The Geckos are a kluge that allows you to run servo motors from the
step and direction signals more commonly used for driving steppers.
Convenient under the right circumstances, but you'd sacrifice quite a
lot of the functionality that the Galil controller offers by going
that route.

What functionality? It's still closed loop, still flags an error and
shuts down the control if the servo is overloaded and can't hold
position, you can still tune the parameters, etc. I can't think of any
feature you loose that is relevant for the class of control.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...


Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

83 days?????????


BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.


It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.


Around machine tools?

Sure, why not?

You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.



My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff. Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I need rigid tapping on my mill. I've not seen this done under Mach. Again
how it was done and pics would be nice.

my lathes do Fanuc G76 multiple pass threading with definable infeed angle,
rough passes, finish passes, taper threads, ID or OD threads, number of
leads to pull out at end of thread, more. Again, I've not seen a successful
Mach machine doing this let alone going at high speed to hypercritical
specs.

For that matter, I think keyboard control sucks. It must be doable but I've
not seen a Mach control using a standard operator panel that you see on any
commercial machine.

Karl

On Apr 29, 9:56*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Tim wrote:

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
tanews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... *These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

It's nothing more than a wag, but I would say new stuff every three years,
providing you keep the machines cool, clean, and turned on. Nothing seems to
hurt electronics more than heating and cooling cycles from turning them on
and off.

* Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. *Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. *After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

* *BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.

It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.

* Around machine tools?

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not quite what the Nichicon spec sheet here says:
http://products.nichicon.co.jp/en/pdf/XJA043/e-hm.pdf

After 2000 hours at the specified conditions, leakage and ripple are
still under initial specs.

That said, the cheap electrolytics on consumer motherboards are what
usually goes bad the quickest, given otherwise good power and
environmental conditions. I just had to pull one and stick in a
spare, it'd been in service pretty much continuously for 5-6 years.
The big caps all had bulgy ends. I'll try reviving it with some new
caps, they're cheap and it's a fairly quick fix, if it works.

So for the O.P., I'd figure on a max lifetime of NEW boards at about 5
years. Used ones are a crapshoot. You might improve things with
better-quality caps, assuming you have the facilities and ability for
changing same.

Stan

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:35:02 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ned Simmons wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:17:06 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:


You haven't looked closely enough then.

No closed loop servo control,

Closed loop servo is indeed available. Servo drives such as the Geckos
are closed loop and will readily fault and halt Mach3 in the event the
servo error exceeds the set threshold, just like any other servo system.

The Geckos are a kluge that allows you to run servo motors from the
step and direction signals more commonly used for driving steppers.
Convenient under the right circumstances, but you'd sacrifice quite a
lot of the functionality that the Galil controller offers by going
that route.

What functionality? It's still closed loop, still flags an error and
shuts down the control if the servo is overloaded and can't hold
position, you can still tune the parameters, etc. I can't think of any
feature you loose that is relevant for the class of control.

The first thing you'd lose is the Galil controller itself, unless it's
a newer card than what I imagine it is. Some of Galil's newer
controllers can be configured for either step & direction or +/-10V,
but not the older generations.

But setting that aside, the first couple things that occur to me are,
since the gains are now set in the amp rather than the controller,
you'd give up: the auto-tuning routines available for the controller;
the ability to replace a drive without going thru a manual tuning
process(with the Galil board the setup parameters can be stored in the
motion program); and the ability to change the loop gains on the fly
in software. Also, the Gecko is missing integral gain.

Unless you were able to set up a second feedback loop from the encoder
to the controller board, you wouldn't get the "digital 'scope"
utilities that Galil supplies, and the motion program wouldn't have
access to real position and velocity numbers.

--
Ned Simmons

Karl Townsend wrote:
You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.



My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff. Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I need rigid tapping on my mill. I've not seen this done under Mach. Again
how it was done and pics would be nice.

my lathes do Fanuc G76 multiple pass threading with definable infeed angle,
rough passes, finish passes, taper threads, ID or OD threads, number of
leads to pull out at end of thread, more. Again, I've not seen a successful
Mach machine doing this let alone going at high speed to hypercritical
specs.

For that matter, I think keyboard control sucks. It must be doable but I've
not seen a Mach control using a standard operator panel that you see on any
commercial machine.

Karl




One of the long term storage problems you'll face is that electrolytic
capacitors will eventually dry out and fail.

Ned Simmons wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:35:02 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ned Simmons wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:17:06 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:


You haven't looked closely enough then.

No closed loop servo control,

Closed loop servo is indeed available. Servo drives such as the Geckos
are closed loop and will readily fault and halt Mach3 in the event the
servo error exceeds the set threshold, just like any other servo system.

The Geckos are a kluge that allows you to run servo motors from the
step and direction signals more commonly used for driving steppers.
Convenient under the right circumstances, but you'd sacrifice quite a
lot of the functionality that the Galil controller offers by going
that route.

What functionality? It's still closed loop, still flags an error and
shuts down the control if the servo is overloaded and can't hold
position, you can still tune the parameters, etc. I can't think of any
feature you loose that is relevant for the class of control.

The first thing you'd lose is the Galil controller itself, unless it's
a newer card than what I imagine it is. Some of Galil's newer
controllers can be configured for either step & direction or +/-10V,
but not the older generations.

But setting that aside, the first couple things that occur to me are,
since the gains are now set in the amp rather than the controller,
you'd give up: the auto-tuning routines available for the controller;
the ability to replace a drive without going thru a manual tuning
process(with the Galil board the setup parameters can be stored in the
motion program); and the ability to change the loop gains on the fly
in software. Also, the Gecko is missing integral gain.

Unless you were able to set up a second feedback loop from the encoder
to the controller board, you wouldn't get the "digital 'scope"
utilities that Galil supplies, and the motion program wouldn't have
access to real position and velocity numbers.

Ok, and exactly how relevant are those features to the day to day
operation of this class of machine? We're talking old used retrofitted
iron here, not the latest $1M machining centers. Nearly all of what you
indicated is only relevant to one time setup. I believe Mach3 can also
read encoder positions in some configurations so it does get to see the
"real" position, but even so, that makes little difference for this
class of control and machine. You're trying to put a Ferrari engine in a
Chevy truck.

Karl Townsend wrote:

You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.

My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff.

Yes, the same homing routine as the commercial machines I used to work
on.

Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I don't know anyone who is doing this, but I also don't know many folks
period. I do know that I can readily get Mach3 to work with this type of
precision homing and can give you the demo and details once I finish
re-retrofitting my mini mill.


I need rigid tapping on my mill. I've not seen this done under Mach. Again
how it was done and pics would be nice.

I'm not sure on this one. Mach does have the capability for a spindle
index pulse and I know this is used in the lathe threading mode. I'm
sure the Machsupport forums could provide answers on this.


my lathes do Fanuc G76 multiple pass threading with definable infeed angle,
rough passes, finish passes, taper threads, ID or OD threads, number of
leads to pull out at end of thread, more. Again, I've not seen a successful
Mach machine doing this let alone going at high speed to hypercritical
specs.

Check on the forums on that too.


For that matter, I think keyboard control sucks. It must be doable but I've
not seen a Mach control using a standard operator panel that you see on any
commercial machine.

There are a number of pendants and "real" control panel setups
available, complete with real jog encoder wheels and "hard" buttons for
the key functions.

"Pete C." wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.

My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff.

Yes, the same homing routine as the commercial machines I used to work
on.

Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I don't know anyone who is doing this, but I also don't know many folks
period. I do know that I can readily get Mach3 to work with this type of
precision homing and can give you the demo and details once I finish
re-retrofitting my mini mill.

Actually, here are the details:

Use separate home and limit switches and inputs to Mach. Route the
encoder index signal through the home switch to the home input on Mach
for the axis. Set Mach for 0 home offset and a reasonably slow home
speed. The axis heads towards home, eventually runs up the home switch
ramp, the home switch trips and then Mach homes when the next encoder
index pulse comes along. Same sequence as your current setup, home is
the first encoder index pulse past the home switch.

"Pete C." wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.

My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff.

Yes, the same homing routine as the commercial machines I used to work
on.

Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I don't know anyone who is doing this, but I also don't know many folks
period. I do know that I can readily get Mach3 to work with this type of
precision homing and can give you the demo and details once I finish
re-retrofitting my mini mill.


I need rigid tapping on my mill. I've not seen this done under Mach. Again
how it was done and pics would be nice.

I'm not sure on this one. Mach does have the capability for a spindle
index pulse and I know this is used in the lathe threading mode. I'm
sure the Machsupport forums could provide answers on this.


my lathes do Fanuc G76 multiple pass threading with definable infeed angle,
rough passes, finish passes, taper threads, ID or OD threads, number of
leads to pull out at end of thread, more. Again, I've not seen a successful
Mach machine doing this let alone going at high speed to hypercritical
specs.


Looking quickly on the Machsupport forum, I see references to semi-rigid
tapping as well as indications that the SmoothStepper (SS) external USB
connected pulsing engine is going to support better spindle sync.

"Pete C." wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.

My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff.

Yes, the same homing routine as the commercial machines I used to work
on.

Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I don't know anyone who is doing this, but I also don't know many folks
period. I do know that I can readily get Mach3 to work with this type of
precision homing and can give you the demo and details once I finish
re-retrofitting my mini mill.

Actually, here are the details:

Use separate home and limit switches and inputs to Mach. Route the
encoder index signal through the home switch to the home input on Mach
for the axis. Set Mach for 0 home offset and a reasonably slow home
speed. The axis heads towards home, eventually runs up the home switch
ramp, the home switch trips and then Mach homes when the next encoder
index pulse comes along. Same sequence as your current setup, home is
the first encoder index pulse past the home switch.

May need to condition / pulse stretch the index signal if it's real
short. I think the SmoothStepper can handle short index signals better.

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:13:48 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

AMI made almost bulletproof boards way back. Whatever you get you will
want to replace the Low ESR filter caps on the boards.(Generally a
set of 8)

Ok, and exactly how relevant are those features to the day to day
operation of this class of machine? We're talking old used retrofitted
iron here, not the latest $1M machining centers. Nearly all of what you
indicated is only relevant to one time setup. I believe Mach3 can also
read encoder positions in some configurations so it does get to see the
"real" position, but even so, that makes little difference for this
class of control and machine. You're trying to put a Ferrari engine in a
Chevy truck.

Your last sentence has the difference. A Galil based control is easily
better than the original control. These old machines have just as good iron
as today's brand new ones. They just need a top notch control, not a chevy.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Karl

Tim wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...


Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

83 days?????????


Study it, learn from it, or pay the consequences. Leaving some
modern electronics on 24/7 destroys it in short order. Long gone are
the tube days when you could put a couple fingers between components


BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.


It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.


Around machine tools?

Sure, why not?


Dream on. Better yet, rent a power analyzer and look at the AC line
for a few weeks. You will never see a pure sine wave. Some days you'll
barely recognize that it is supposed to be a sine wave.





--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

cavelamb wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:
You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.



My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff. Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I need rigid tapping on my mill. I've not seen this done under Mach. Again
how it was done and pics would be nice.

my lathes do Fanuc G76 multiple pass threading with definable infeed angle,
rough passes, finish passes, taper threads, ID or OD threads, number of
leads to pull out at end of thread, more. Again, I've not seen a successful
Mach machine doing this let alone going at high speed to hypercritical
specs.

For that matter, I think keyboard control sucks. It must be doable but I've
not seen a Mach control using a standard operator panel that you see on any
commercial machine.

Karl



One of the long term storage problems you'll face is that electrolytic
capacitors will eventually dry out and fail.


They aren't that hard to replace, if you know how. I've replaced
thousands of them on PTH boards. SMD boards are easy. The hard part is
buying good low ESR capacitors. Newer motherboards are starting to use
organic electrolytics that are supposed to last longer & work better. I
can desolder the six to ten electrolytics on most motherboards in under
an hour without damaging the PTHs or traces. Soldering them back is
easier, but you do have to take ESD precautions.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Karl Townsend wrote:

Ok, and exactly how relevant are those features to the day to day
operation of this class of machine? We're talking old used retrofitted
iron here, not the latest $1M machining centers. Nearly all of what you
indicated is only relevant to one time setup. I believe Mach3 can also
read encoder positions in some configurations so it does get to see the
"real" position, but even so, that makes little difference for this
class of control and machine. You're trying to put a Ferrari engine in a
Chevy truck.

Your last sentence has the difference. A Galil based control is easily
better than the original control. These old machines have just as good iron
as today's brand new ones. They just need a top notch control, not a chevy.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Karl

Do those old machines have gun drilled, liquid cooled ballscrews?
Spindle oil coolers? Have you entered pitch error compensation tables
from the ballscrew manufacturer?

Depends... I had some old XTs that just would not die. I still have drives
out of some of them as working spares, and I have one "all media" computer
that has some of those original XT floppy drives running today.

The real success story though is a 486 DX 80 that I bought 1st gen and threw
in an old 386 cabinet. I ran that machine 24/7 more than a decade with no
failures of anything. Drives, memory, processors, etc. In fact I think one
of the floppy drives in it is from one of my 386 machines. The last 3 years
I only power it up when I need it a couple times a week, but it still boots
right up and runs like a champ. Only reason I shut it down now is that it
has a nsiy power supply fan that drives me crazy. Can't complain. That
power supply came with the cabinet, and my wife had that computer before we
met. It was totally state of the art back then. LOL.

I have not had that luck with any computer newer than that however. Boards
fail, memory fails, processors get flaky, drives fail, etc etc... However,
I have managed to keep a lot of them going in a pinch just by slowing them
down. Its kind of a shame that its not that easy with a modern BIOS.



"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Tim wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...


Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

83 days?????????


Study it, learn from it, or pay the consequences. Leaving some
modern electronics on 24/7 destroys it in short order. Long gone are
the tube days when you could put a couple fingers between components

I've seen a BUNCH of file servers consistantly run 4 to 5 years without
failure. The PC I'm on now has been on for some 3 year now, and another in
the office more than 5. I also had my first Accurite II on a digital mill go
better than 25 years.

I will grant you your expertise, but I can assure you, my actual experiences
have shown quite different.



BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.


It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.


Around machine tools?

Sure, why not?


Dream on. Better yet, rent a power analyzer and look at the AC line
for a few weeks. You will never see a pure sine wave. Some days you'll
barely recognize that it is supposed to be a sine wave.

Everyone knows computers and electric motors are anything but partners on
the shop grid. If you can about your computers, battery back up power
supplies make good low cost filters. Not perfect, but many times better than
nothing at all.

They aren't that hard to replace, if you know how. I've replaced
thousands of them on PTH boards. SMD boards are easy. The hard part is
buying good low ESR capacitors. Newer motherboards are starting to use
organic electrolytics that are supposed to last longer & work better. I
can desolder the six to ten electrolytics on most motherboards in under
an hour without damaging the PTHs or traces. Soldering them back is
easier, but you do have to take ESD precautions.

Good to know, I should be able to hire somebody to help when the time comes.
Is there a way to know caps are failing? Or, wait till it broke and try this
fix?

Karl

"Karl Townsend" wrote:

Your last sentence has the difference. A Galil based control is easily
better than the original control. These old machines have just as good iron
as today's brand new ones. They just need a top notch control, not a chevy.

Galil is good stuff. Almost two decades ago, I was using some Galil 720's to lay down
hotmelt adhesive before turning the carpet on package trays. Made for a fairly
inexpensive servo system that got the job done. During those days, Doctor Tal was
responding personally to my bug reports. (yup, I found a few) New rom's came quickly.
Not sure how support is now.

I'm sure Doctor Tal's products have improved immensely. Btw, he put out a couple books
that were very interesting concerning motion systems. I was going to give you the titles
but I seemed to have moved them to another bookcase or boxed them. Only so much room.

Back to your original question, I'd shop goodwill stores and pick up boxes that meet your
needs now. We have a balancer that has a 8087 in it. You know how old that is, like 86
or so. That board has been rocking on for 2 decades. Short of a bad lightning strike,
most motherboards will last 10 years. So 4 spares are likely going last you as long as
you are interested in the technology level you are using. Cheap PCI or whatever available
Galils will be on the market when your supply dries up.

Wes

Karl,

UMMM look back 20 or 30 years, when was the last time you saw a 8080 CP/M
computer....

I'd seriously think about this statment you made...

(Note: I don't think I need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot
of these around)

I haven't seen a *NEW* 3.5 floopy drive in several years though someone
*might* make them

PATA hard disks (you know connected by the wide flat cable) are NO LONGER
MANUFACTURED... It's all SATA now (that skinny red cable)

FYI just to blow your mind, in the SATA world it's getting tough (at the OEM
manufacturing level) to buy a SATA drive SMALLER than 750GB and as of last
week the quotes a customer of mine got had 1TB (yes that's TERABYTE) drives
at a lower cost than 750GB...

Good luck pal...

--.- Dave

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

cavelamb wrote:

One of the long term storage problems you'll face is that electrolytic
capacitors will eventually dry out and fail.

A few episodes back, Steve Gibson was talking about his collection of PDP's. One of the
issues with firing them up was the capacitors. Some caps can be reformed.

http://www.vmars.org.uk/capacitor_reforming.htm


Wes

Oh yeah one other thing..

What's usually the death of most electronics is the capacitors... the Cap
manufactures have tuned the manufacturing process so close to the bone that
if you get 5 years outts some that good... the also don't age well even un
powered.. so sticking a bunch of boards away as spares will only get you so
far..

Get with the program and to paraphrase Walt Disney "just keep moving
forward"..

--.- Dave


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:29:32 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ned Simmons wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:35:02 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


What functionality? It's still closed loop, still flags an error and
shuts down the control if the servo is overloaded and can't hold
position, you can still tune the parameters, etc. I can't think of any
feature you loose that is relevant for the class of control.

The first thing you'd lose is the Galil controller itself, unless it's
a newer card than what I imagine it is. Some of Galil's newer
controllers can be configured for either step & direction or +/-10V,
but not the older generations.

But setting that aside, the first couple things that occur to me are,
since the gains are now set in the amp rather than the controller,
you'd give up: the auto-tuning routines available for the controller;
the ability to replace a drive without going thru a manual tuning
process(with the Galil board the setup parameters can be stored in the
motion program); and the ability to change the loop gains on the fly
in software. Also, the Gecko is missing integral gain.

Unless you were able to set up a second feedback loop from the encoder
to the controller board, you wouldn't get the "digital 'scope"
utilities that Galil supplies, and the motion program wouldn't have
access to real position and velocity numbers.

Ok, and exactly how relevant are those features to the day to day
operation of this class of machine? We're talking old used retrofitted
iron here, not the latest $1M machining centers. Nearly all of what you
indicated is only relevant to one time setup.

If you care to keep the machine running and making money, ease of
setup is a big deal.

The lack of a derivative term in the loop is not merely a one-time
convenience issue. It can have a big impact on positioning
performance, and may be more important on an older machine where the
control may be called on to compensate for some of the machine's
shortcomings.

I believe Mach3 can also
read encoder positions in some configurations so it does get to see the
"real" position, but even so, that makes little difference for this
class of control and machine. You're trying to put a Ferrari engine in a
Chevy truck.

I don't consider an obsolete motion controller to be a Ferrari, and
don't see the point in replacing something that's up and running and
familiar with a system that has less functionality.

--
Ned Simmons

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:40:32 -0400, Wes wrote:

"Karl Townsend" wrote:

Your last sentence has the difference. A Galil based control is easily
better than the original control. These old machines have just as good iron
as today's brand new ones. They just need a top notch control, not a chevy.

Galil is good stuff. Almost two decades ago, I was using some Galil 720's to lay down
hotmelt adhesive before turning the carpet on package trays. Made for a fairly
inexpensive servo system that got the job done. During those days, Doctor Tal was
responding personally to my bug reports. (yup, I found a few) New rom's came quickly.
Not sure how support is now.

He was still answering the phone occasionally as of a couple years
ago, but I think you're more likely to get him with an application
question than a support request. My first experience with Galil was
also with the 7xx series.


I'm sure Doctor Tal's products have improved immensely.

One of the best things about Galil is no matter how much the products
evolve, the stuff you learned remains relevant. The controllers still
use the same syntax and two letter mnemonic commands that I first
learned.

--
Ned Simmons

I have not had that luck with any computer newer than that however.
Boards
fail, memory fails, processors get flaky, drives fail, etc etc...
However, I have managed to keep a lot of them going in a pinch just by
slowing them down. Its kind of a shame that its not that easy with a
modern BIOS.

The motherboard i use takes a WIDE range of P4 processors. Would it be wise
to buy a few slower ones to swap in a failing unit?

Karl

On 2009-04-29, Karl Townsend wrote:
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

That makes sense.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Floppy drives are becoming quite rare already. I'm amazed that
my Sun Blade 2000 still has one -- not all of them do.

Hard drives keep getting bigger, and older BIOS chips and
motherboards have limits on the largest disk drive which they can boot
from and use in their entirity. I would suggest stocking drives of the
maximum size that the motherboard is happy with *now*.

If the power supply used by the motherboards is the ATX style,
you may be able to get them for a while yet. If the older style used by
the PC, XT and AT -- get them *now* at hamfests and flea markets -- or
be prepared to troubleshoot switching mode power supplies *without*
schematics. (I have yet to find a set of schematics for a PC power
supply.)

Get at least two CPU fan/heat-sinks for each system board. The
fans in those tend to fail sooner than most other parts. (And they
*can* take out the CPU too, if you don't spot it in time.)

Make sure that you use the same size memory in all systems, and
you should be able to mix and match to keep enough working sets from a
full set for each working motherboard and spare motherboard.

You can probably use current production graphics cards for a
while at least. Probably you can stock up from discarded cards as the
gamers keep upgrading to faster and hotter cards.

But you know, of course, that the thing most likely to fail will
be the special cards which are forcing you to need the ISA bus to start
with. And those are the most expensive parts too, I'll bet.

For power supplies, and motherboards, you might be able to keep
things running with spare capacitors. (Remember that for a period a lot
of things were made using capacitors with an electrolyte built from a
stolen (and bad) formula, so the filter caps may be the most likely
non-mechanical part to fail.) If you can replace filter caps on the
motherboards and the power supplies, you might be able to keep them
going longer.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Dave August wrote:
Karl,

UMMM look back 20 or 30 years, when was the last time you saw a 8080
CP/M computer....

I'd seriously think about this statment you made...

(Note: I don't think I need to do hard and floppy drives yet -
still a lot of these around)

I haven't seen a *NEW* 3.5 floopy drive in several years though
someone *might* make them

PATA hard disks (you know connected by the wide flat cable) are NO
LONGER MANUFACTURED... It's all SATA now (that skinny red cable)

IDE HDD's are still readily available , checked Newegg recently ?

--
Snag
every answer
leads to another
question

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:40:32 -0400, Wes wrote:

"Karl Townsend" wrote:

Your last sentence has the difference. A Galil based control is easily
better than the original control. These old machines have just as good
iron
as today's brand new ones. They just need a top notch control, not a
chevy.

Galil is good stuff. Almost two decades ago, I was using some Galil 720's
to lay down
hotmelt adhesive before turning the carpet on package trays. Made for a
fairly
inexpensive servo system that got the job done. During those days, Doctor
Tal was
responding personally to my bug reports. (yup, I found a few) New rom's
came quickly.
Not sure how support is now.

He was still answering the phone occasionally as of a couple years
ago, but I think you're more likely to get him with an application
question than a support request. My first experience with Galil was
also with the 7xx series.


I'm sure Doctor Tal's products have improved immensely.

One of the best things about Galil is no matter how much the products
evolve, the stuff you learned remains relevant. The controllers still
use the same syntax and two letter mnemonic commands that I first
learned.

--
Ned Simmons

I can testify the support is top shelf. If you got an interesting problem,
they move you right up to the senior engineering staff, great folks. Wish
there were more companies that believed in top notch products and support
like Galil.

Karl

They tend to last longer if powered up but fail if stored a long time.
Martin - I have a digital clock I made in the mid 70's - I figured the IC
would go bad by now - not the main clock one - ceramic/gold but the segment
drivers. Looks like a segment or two are getting weak. Might be IC or solder
joint.

Amazing really. Some electronics just last and last. Some leak and moisture
gets you.

Martin

Wes wrote:
cavelamb wrote:

One of the long term storage problems you'll face is that electrolytic
capacitors will eventually dry out and fail.

A few episodes back, Steve Gibson was talking about his collection of PDP's. One of the
issues with firing them up was the capacitors. Some caps can be reformed.

http://www.vmars.org.uk/capacitor_reforming.htm


Wes