I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:

I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

I'd suggest you take a closer look at Mach3 as well as the couple
external pulse generator modules that work with it which eliminate the
need for parallel ports as well. As you see you're already having
difficulty maintaining a system that requires ISA slots, better to
prepare for a newer setup that will work with more modern components.
Remember that Mach3 is free in code limited trial mode (~1000 lines
IIRC) so you can very easily try it out. It is also very reasonably
priced in full mode (~$150/unlimited for non commercial and
~$150/machine for commercial).

Most desktop motherboards aren't built to specification for long term
reliability. I know some motherboards have operated for many years without
failures, but long life isn't the average life.

Reliability is spec'ed in server machines that are intended to run
continuously over a long period.

The ISA bus is already old, and so are the individual special ISA hardware
cards/boards.
I'd imagine that ISA backplane boards exist, but I don't recall ever seeing
them. There may be a ISA backplane module that adapts to another buss or
port type.

There is a specialized class of industrial-duty computers similar to desktop
construction, but cased in 19" rack cases, which are airtight and cooled
without room air passing thru the cases. These systems may still be being
built with the ISA buss.

Hoarding old motherboards will only work until a failure wipes out the ISA
cards that the machines need to run on.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Pete C." wrote in message
ter.com...


I'd suggest you take a closer look at Mach3 as well as the couple
external pulse generator modules that work with it which eliminate the
need for parallel ports as well. As you see you're already having
difficulty maintaining a system that requires ISA slots, better to
prepare for a newer setup that will work with more modern components.
Remember that Mach3 is free in code limited trial mode (~1000 lines
IIRC) so you can very easily try it out. It is also very reasonably
priced in full mode (~$150/unlimited for non commercial and
~$150/machine for commercial).

I'd suggest you take a closer look at Mach3 as well as the couple
external pulse generator modules that work with it which eliminate the
need for parallel ports as well. As you see you're already having
difficulty maintaining a system that requires ISA slots, better to
prepare for a newer setup that will work with more modern components.
Remember that Mach3 is free in code limited trial mode (~1000 lines
IIRC) so you can very easily try it out. It is also very reasonably
priced in full mode (~$150/unlimited for non commercial and
~$150/machine for commercial).

Mach3 has come a long way, but still not up to control of industrial size
commercial machines,IMHO. No closed loop servo control, can't handle large
amounts of I/O, PLC interface is still poor, custom M&Gcodes not there.
Don't want to start a ****ing match here, just explaining why I choose
another route. Redoing my existing running controls is a HUGE HUGE job. I'd
prefer to just have plenty of spare parts.

To another post, I'm also stockpiling the Galil ISA motion control card.

Maybe I should put my query another way. I'm using four computers with this
special setup. I'm well on my way to having four complete spares ready to
run. How long should I expect this level of spare parts to last? If I double
the spare level to eight, how much longer?

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:

I'd suggest you take a closer look at Mach3 as well as the couple
external pulse generator modules that work with it which eliminate the
need for parallel ports as well. As you see you're already having
difficulty maintaining a system that requires ISA slots, better to
prepare for a newer setup that will work with more modern components.
Remember that Mach3 is free in code limited trial mode (~1000 lines
IIRC) so you can very easily try it out. It is also very reasonably
priced in full mode (~$150/unlimited for non commercial and
~$150/machine for commercial).

Mach3 has come a long way, but still not up to control of industrial size
commercial machines,IMHO.

You haven't looked closely enough then.

No closed loop servo control,

Closed loop servo is indeed available. Servo drives such as the Geckos
are closed loop and will readily fault and halt Mach3 in the event the
servo error exceeds the set threshold, just like any other servo system.

can't handle large
amounts of I/O,

It can handle more I/O than you can throw at it. There are numerous
interfaces available with plenty of I/O, Modbus, etc.

PLC interface is still poor, custom M&Gcodes not there.

It is fully customizable with a huge user and support base.

Don't want to start a ****ing match here, just explaining why I choose
another route. Redoing my existing running controls is a HUGE HUGE job. I'd
prefer to just have plenty of spare parts.

I don't know what your existing controls look like so I can't comment on
how big a job a conversion would be, but based on your incorrect
assumptions about Mach3 you may also be overestimating the conversion
effort.


To another post, I'm also stockpiling the Galil ISA motion control card.

If you insist on that route, you should be looking at newer non ISA
Galil controls.


Maybe I should put my query another way. I'm using four computers with this
special setup. I'm well on my way to having four complete spares ready to
run. How long should I expect this level of spare parts to last? If I double
the spare level to eight, how much longer?

You can expect the spares to last until the consumer grade components
like electrolytic caps die of old age, tin whiskers short connections,
internal chemical residue corrodes connections in chips, etc. Even
sealed in a static bag on a shelf the boards are aging and may not be
functional in 5 years when you try to use them.

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:17:06 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:


You haven't looked closely enough then.

No closed loop servo control,

Closed loop servo is indeed available. Servo drives such as the Geckos
are closed loop and will readily fault and halt Mach3 in the event the
servo error exceeds the set threshold, just like any other servo system.

The Geckos are a kluge that allows you to run servo motors from the
step and direction signals more commonly used for driving steppers.
Convenient under the right circumstances, but you'd sacrifice quite a
lot of the functionality that the Galil controller offers by going
that route.

--
Ned Simmons

Ned Simmons wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:17:06 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:


You haven't looked closely enough then.

No closed loop servo control,

Closed loop servo is indeed available. Servo drives such as the Geckos
are closed loop and will readily fault and halt Mach3 in the event the
servo error exceeds the set threshold, just like any other servo system.

The Geckos are a kluge that allows you to run servo motors from the
step and direction signals more commonly used for driving steppers.
Convenient under the right circumstances, but you'd sacrifice quite a
lot of the functionality that the Galil controller offers by going
that route.

What functionality? It's still closed loop, still flags an error and
shuts down the control if the servo is overloaded and can't hold
position, you can still tune the parameters, etc. I can't think of any
feature you loose that is relevant for the class of control.

You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.



My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff. Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I need rigid tapping on my mill. I've not seen this done under Mach. Again
how it was done and pics would be nice.

my lathes do Fanuc G76 multiple pass threading with definable infeed angle,
rough passes, finish passes, taper threads, ID or OD threads, number of
leads to pull out at end of thread, more. Again, I've not seen a successful
Mach machine doing this let alone going at high speed to hypercritical
specs.

For that matter, I think keyboard control sucks. It must be doable but I've
not seen a Mach control using a standard operator panel that you see on any
commercial machine.

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:
You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.



My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff. Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I need rigid tapping on my mill. I've not seen this done under Mach. Again
how it was done and pics would be nice.

my lathes do Fanuc G76 multiple pass threading with definable infeed angle,
rough passes, finish passes, taper threads, ID or OD threads, number of
leads to pull out at end of thread, more. Again, I've not seen a successful
Mach machine doing this let alone going at high speed to hypercritical
specs.

For that matter, I think keyboard control sucks. It must be doable but I've
not seen a Mach control using a standard operator panel that you see on any
commercial machine.

Karl




One of the long term storage problems you'll face is that electrolytic
capacitors will eventually dry out and fail.

Karl Townsend wrote:

You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.

My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff.

Yes, the same homing routine as the commercial machines I used to work
on.

Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I don't know anyone who is doing this, but I also don't know many folks
period. I do know that I can readily get Mach3 to work with this type of
precision homing and can give you the demo and details once I finish
re-retrofitting my mini mill.


I need rigid tapping on my mill. I've not seen this done under Mach. Again
how it was done and pics would be nice.

I'm not sure on this one. Mach does have the capability for a spindle
index pulse and I know this is used in the lathe threading mode. I'm
sure the Machsupport forums could provide answers on this.


my lathes do Fanuc G76 multiple pass threading with definable infeed angle,
rough passes, finish passes, taper threads, ID or OD threads, number of
leads to pull out at end of thread, more. Again, I've not seen a successful
Mach machine doing this let alone going at high speed to hypercritical
specs.

Check on the forums on that too.


For that matter, I think keyboard control sucks. It must be doable but I've
not seen a Mach control using a standard operator panel that you see on any
commercial machine.

There are a number of pendants and "real" control panel setups
available, complete with real jog encoder wheels and "hard" buttons for
the key functions.

Karl Townsend wrote:

I need rigid tapping on my mill. I've not seen this done under Mach. Again
how it was done and pics would be nice.

Well, then you really NEED to see EMC2. I have
been doing rigid tapping on my minimill (too hard
to fit a spindle encoder to a Bridgeport 1J head)
for over a year now. I used to use a
spring-loaded tap holder, but now I just put it in
a Jacobs chuck and it works fine.
my lathes do Fanuc G76 multiple pass threading with definable infeed angle,
rough passes, finish passes, taper threads, ID or OD threads, number of
leads to pull out at end of thread, more. Again, I've not seen a successful
Mach machine doing this let alone going at high speed to hypercritical
specs.

We have Hardinge CHNC users and a few other lathes
doing threading. I also have done threading in my
minimill, primarily for testing purposes. We
don't have all of the above in one canned cycle at
the present, but have a G-code program that does
it all with some loops and variables.
For that matter, I think keyboard control sucks. It must be doable but I've
not seen a Mach control using a standard operator panel that you see on any
commercial machine.
Check out MachMotion, but their stuff is plenty
expensive. As for EMC2, once you have a decent
amount of I/O, adding a nice jog pendant is pretty
easy.

(If you don't know where to find EMC2, see
http://www.linuxcnc.org )

Jon

Karl Townsend wrote:

You and Michael raise good points on the computers and ISA bus. Looks like
this route is out of business in 5 years or so. Right now Galil PCI cards
are $1000s each while the ISA units go for cheap on eBay. Maybe I'd best
start saving.

My hesitation with Mach is based on the frustration I see with folks trying
to install commercial scale needs. I worked with a guy on a hardinge CHNC
like mine. He's done three previous refits and is having a terrible time
with tool changer.

maybe you can change my mind. The devil is in the details:

My machines all home on startup. Not just a home switch but encoder index
pulse after making the home switch. pretty standard commercial stuff. Do you
know a Mach user doing this and how he done it? I'd love to see a video.

I need rigid tapping on my mill. I've not seen this done under Mach. Again
how it was done and pics would be nice.

my lathes do Fanuc G76 multiple pass threading with definable infeed angle,
rough passes, finish passes, taper threads, ID or OD threads, number of
leads to pull out at end of thread, more. Again, I've not seen a successful
Mach machine doing this let alone going at high speed to hypercritical
specs.

For that matter, I think keyboard control sucks. It must be doable but I've
not seen a Mach control using a standard operator panel that you see on any
commercial machine.

Karl


BTW, I have several hundred spare keyboards, most are AT or PS/2


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:17:06 -0500, Pete C. wrote:
....
You can expect the spares to last until the consumer grade components
like electrolytic caps die of old age, tin whiskers short connections,
internal chemical residue corrodes connections in chips, etc. Even
sealed in a static bag on a shelf the boards are aging and may not be
functional in 5 years when you try to use them.

Besides the above items and the disk, power supply, and fan issues
others have mentioned, on-board batteries may be an issue. For
long-term storage, I suggest removing batteries from the
motherboard, and using new batteries when bringing up a stored
system. Write down bios settings before taking out the
batteries, and perhaps use a save-and-restore-settings program.
If the bios itself is in flash memory, make sure you have copies
of the bios and bios-loader on durable storage media.

--
jiw

Karl Townsend wrote:

Mach3 has come a long way, but still not up to control of industrial size
commercial machines,IMHO. No closed loop servo control, can't handle large
amounts of I/O, PLC interface is still poor, custom M&Gcodes not there.
Oh, well, in THAT case, have you looked at EMC2?
We have a large aerospace shop in Wichita that is
converting their machines over to EMC2. Right
now, that user is adding full N-axis error
mapping, to compensate for any non-straightness or
orthogonality error in the ways. He is already
running a Cincinnatti 5-axis machine with it, and
a Giddings & Lewis with dual feedback (shaft
encoders plus linear encoders). EMC2 has a
built-in ladder-logic program (Classic Ladder).
The advantage is you can bring up diagnostic
screens any time there is some jam-up in the tool
changer, for instance, to find which sensor is not
getting the right signal.

Custom codes are easily added.

True closed loop positioning feedback to the CPU
since at least 1997 when it was ported to PCs.

Jon

Capacitor failures have been mentioned as very likely faults, even on
motherboards that are only a couple of years old.

FWIW, there are a number of reasons why present designs of capacitors fail
prematurely.
The number one reason is stress, whih can result in high ESR equivalent
series resistance, or excessive leakage.
High ESR and excessive leakage aren't conditions that a typical DMM (even
ones with a capacitance range) can test for, either in or out of circuit.
A dedicated ESR meter, and/or a capacitor analyzer are required to test for
these values.

Forgetting about the counterfeit capacitor electrolyte for a moment (or
forever now), SMPS switch mode power supplies and motherbord DC-DC voltage
converter circuits apply a lot of stress to today's miniaturized
electrolytic capacitors.

Older linear power supplies would typically apply 60 or 120Hz to the filter
capacitors.

Newer SMPS apply frequencies of tens of kilohertz, often at high peak
currents. These conditions stress the electrolyte and foil coatings in
capacitors.

We can see what a similar high frequency stress does to thin aluminum foil
when it's placed in an ultrasonic cleaner.
Likewise, surface changes take place on lead/acid battery plates when high
frequency, high peak currents are applied by desulfator circuits.

Newer, low ESR capacitors are very compact due to the miniaturization of
most equipment, and bare space on motherboards is becoming almost
non-existent.

Most higher grade capacitors are rated at 105 C degrees to be more tolerant
of heat, but poor circuit layout practices often place them where ambient
heat is problem. With a nearby heat source and high peak currents, many
capacitors are operating close to their breakdown specifications.

It's been mentioned that circuit/motherboards that are shelved when new, may
have faults in a couple of years, just from storage.
I've seen numerous "new" low ESR capacitors fail testing (badly, not just
borderline/questionable), when they're old stock of only a couple of years.
That was what started me to test new stock before installing them as repair
parts.

It seems that old stock is liquidated to sellers/brokers that package them
individually for retail sale and offer them to parts distributors, or just
sell them in bulk to surplus sellers. Much of the stock available from the
second or third transaction sources would no longer pass new specification
testing. They may function in a hobby circuit, but their reliability is
likely to be very low.

For important applications, fresh stock should be sourced from a distributor
with high volume stock turnover to ensure that the stock has been recently
replenished from the manufacturer. There probably isn't any added value in
buying a hundred pieces if they'll just sit in a drawer for a year or two.

Many quality electrolytic capacitors have 4 digit date codes on them which
are fairly easy to interpret, as week/year or year/week.

One of the best ESR testers by reputation and cost is the Bob Parker/Dick
Smith ESR Meter in circuit tester.
Other models costing many times more, are no more effective at measuring ESR
both in and out of circuit.
More costly capacitor and inductor analyzers generally offer more test
parameters for more thorough evaluations.

Desoldering thru-hole leads of electrolytic capacitors can be a bit
challenging on multi-layer motherboards, but easy enough to do with quality
desoldering equipment designed for the task.
Random replacement of electrolytics on motherboards may correct or prevent
some problems from failed capacitors (and replacement of all the voltage
converter and CPU voltage supply capacitors is wise), but I'm convinced that
testing capacitors before replacement is a requirement.

Similar to recent comments regarding rechargeable batteries, electrolytic
capacitors are also availble in various grades with particular
characteristics. The voltage rating and capacitance value shouldn't be the
only considerations for important applications requiring any degree of
reliability.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


Pete C." wrote in message
ter.com...

Karl Townsend wrote:

I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot
to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new
parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

I'd suggest you take a closer look at Mach3 as well as the couple
external pulse generator modules that work with it which eliminate the
need for parallel ports as well. As you see you're already having
difficulty maintaining a system that requires ISA slots, better to
prepare for a newer setup that will work with more modern components.
Remember that Mach3 is free in code limited trial mode (~1000 lines
IIRC) so you can very easily try it out. It is also very reasonably
priced in full mode (~$150/unlimited for non commercial and
~$150/machine for commercial).

Wild_Bill wrote:

Capacitor failures have been mentioned as very likely faults, even on
motherboards that are only a couple of years old.

FWIW, there are a number of reasons why present designs of capacitors fail
prematurely.
The number one reason is stress, whih can result in high ESR equivalent
series resistance, or excessive leakage.
High ESR and excessive leakage aren't conditions that a typical DMM (even
ones with a capacitance range) can test for, either in or out of circuit.
A dedicated ESR meter, and/or a capacitor analyzer are required to test for
these values.

Forgetting about the counterfeit capacitor electrolyte for a moment (or
forever now), SMPS switch mode power supplies and motherbord DC-DC voltage
converter circuits apply a lot of stress to today's miniaturized
electrolytic capacitors.

Older linear power supplies would typically apply 60 or 120Hz to the filter
capacitors.

Newer SMPS apply frequencies of tens of kilohertz, often at high peak
currents. These conditions stress the electrolyte and foil coatings in
capacitors.

We can see what a similar high frequency stress does to thin aluminum foil
when it's placed in an ultrasonic cleaner.
Likewise, surface changes take place on lead/acid battery plates when high
frequency, high peak currents are applied by desulfator circuits.

Newer, low ESR capacitors are very compact due to the miniaturization of
most equipment, and bare space on motherboards is becoming almost
non-existent.

Most higher grade capacitors are rated at 105 C degrees to be more tolerant
of heat, but poor circuit layout practices often place them where ambient
heat is problem. With a nearby heat source and high peak currents, many
capacitors are operating close to their breakdown specifications.


Unfortunately, at the current required by the CPU, they have no other
choice than to put the caps next to the CPU. if they were even two or
three inches away, the voltage drop would be excessive. The CPU can
consume over 100 watts at 1.8 volts. That is over 50 amps, so the I/R
losses have to be kept to a minimum. The older Pentium chips consume 50
watts at 2.8 - 3.3 volts. which is still a lot of current to push
through 1 oz. foil on an interior layer.



It's been mentioned that circuit/motherboards that are shelved when new, may
have faults in a couple of years, just from storage.
I've seen numerous "new" low ESR capacitors fail testing (badly, not just
borderline/questionable), when they're old stock of only a couple of years.
That was what started me to test new stock before installing them as repair
parts.

It seems that old stock is liquidated to sellers/brokers that package them
individually for retail sale and offer them to parts distributors, or just
sell them in bulk to surplus sellers. Much of the stock available from the
second or third transaction sources would no longer pass new specification
testing. They may function in a hobby circuit, but their reliability is
likely to be very low.

For important applications, fresh stock should be sourced from a distributor
with high volume stock turnover to ensure that the stock has been recently
replenished from the manufacturer. There probably isn't any added value in
buying a hundred pieces if they'll just sit in a drawer for a year or two.

Many quality electrolytic capacitors have 4 digit date codes on them which
are fairly easy to interpret, as week/year or year/week.

One of the best ESR testers by reputation and cost is the Bob Parker/Dick
Smith ESR Meter in circuit tester.
Other models costing many times more, are no more effective at measuring ESR
both in and out of circuit.
More costly capacitor and inductor analyzers generally offer more test
parameters for more thorough evaluations.

Desoldering thru-hole leads of electrolytic capacitors can be a bit
challenging on multi-layer motherboards, but easy enough to do with quality
desoldering equipment designed for the task.
Random replacement of electrolytics on motherboards may correct or prevent
some problems from failed capacitors (and replacement of all the voltage
converter and CPU voltage supply capacitors is wise), but I'm convinced that
testing capacitors before replacement is a requirement.

Similar to recent comments regarding rechargeable batteries, electrolytic
capacitors are also availble in various grades with particular
characteristics. The voltage rating and capacitance value shouldn't be the
only considerations for important applications requiring any degree of
reliability.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl



It's nothing more than a wag, but I would say new stuff every three years,
providing you keep the machines cool, clean, and turned on. Nothing seems to
hurt electronics more than heating and cooling cycles from turning them on
and off.

It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.

Tim wrote:

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl



It's nothing more than a wag, but I would say new stuff every three years,
providing you keep the machines cool, clean, and turned on. Nothing seems to
hurt electronics more than heating and cooling cycles from turning them on
and off.


Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.


It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.


Around machine tools?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...


Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

83 days?????????


BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.


It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.


Around machine tools?

Sure, why not?

Tim wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...


Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

83 days?????????


Study it, learn from it, or pay the consequences. Leaving some
modern electronics on 24/7 destroys it in short order. Long gone are
the tube days when you could put a couple fingers between components


BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.


It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.


Around machine tools?

Sure, why not?


Dream on. Better yet, rent a power analyzer and look at the AC line
for a few weeks. You will never see a pure sine wave. Some days you'll
barely recognize that it is supposed to be a sine wave.





--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Tim wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...


Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

83 days?????????


Study it, learn from it, or pay the consequences. Leaving some
modern electronics on 24/7 destroys it in short order. Long gone are
the tube days when you could put a couple fingers between components

I've seen a BUNCH of file servers consistantly run 4 to 5 years without
failure. The PC I'm on now has been on for some 3 year now, and another in
the office more than 5. I also had my first Accurite II on a digital mill go
better than 25 years.

I will grant you your expertise, but I can assure you, my actual experiences
have shown quite different.



BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.


It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.


Around machine tools?

Sure, why not?


Dream on. Better yet, rent a power analyzer and look at the AC line
for a few weeks. You will never see a pure sine wave. Some days you'll
barely recognize that it is supposed to be a sine wave.

Everyone knows computers and electric motors are anything but partners on
the shop grid. If you can about your computers, battery back up power
supplies make good low cost filters. Not perfect, but many times better than
nothing at all.

On Apr 29, 9:56*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Tim wrote:

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
tanews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... *These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

It's nothing more than a wag, but I would say new stuff every three years,
providing you keep the machines cool, clean, and turned on. Nothing seems to
hurt electronics more than heating and cooling cycles from turning them on
and off.

* Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. *Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. *After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

* *BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.

It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.

* Around machine tools?

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not quite what the Nichicon spec sheet here says:
http://products.nichicon.co.jp/en/pdf/XJA043/e-hm.pdf

After 2000 hours at the specified conditions, leakage and ripple are
still under initial specs.

That said, the cheap electrolytics on consumer motherboards are what
usually goes bad the quickest, given otherwise good power and
environmental conditions. I just had to pull one and stick in a
spare, it'd been in service pretty much continuously for 5-6 years.
The big caps all had bulgy ends. I'll try reviving it with some new
caps, they're cheap and it's a fairly quick fix, if it works.

So for the O.P., I'd figure on a max lifetime of NEW boards at about 5
years. Used ones are a crapshoot. You might improve things with
better-quality caps, assuming you have the facilities and ability for
changing same.

Stan

wrote:

On Apr 29, 9:56 am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Tim wrote:

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
tanews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

It's nothing more than a wag, but I would say new stuff every three years,
providing you keep the machines cool, clean, and turned on. Nothing seems to
hurt electronics more than heating and cooling cycles from turning them on
and off.

Look up the specs on the electrolytics used on the boards. Most have
a 2000 hour life rating at the specified temperature. After that, the
ESR starts to rise, causing the boards to fail.

BTW, my background is in mission critical electronics.

It also assumes a good power system to avoid low and spike voltage
conditions.

Around machine tools?-

Not quite what the Nichicon spec sheet here says:
http://products.nichicon.co.jp/en/pdf/XJA043/e-hm.pdf

After 2000 hours at the specified conditions, leakage and ripple are
still under initial specs.


That is all that most are warranted for, and rarely ar the run at
full temperature, so you extend the useful life. Motherboards use 105 C
rated electrolytics, but the boards are never run at that temperature,
the 85 degree rated electrolytics drop like flies.


That said, the cheap electrolytics on consumer motherboards are what
usually goes bad the quickest, given otherwise good power and
environmental conditions. I just had to pull one and stick in a
spare, it'd been in service pretty much continuously for 5-6 years.
The big caps all had bulgy ends. I'll try reviving it with some new
caps, they're cheap and it's a fairly quick fix, if it works.


Use a grounded vacuum desoldering iron to remove the bad caps, and
make sure to clean off any electrolyte that leaked. Inspect the traces
near the bad caps for erosion of the copper before soldering in the new
caps.


So for the O.P., I'd figure on a max lifetime of NEW boards at about 5
years. Used ones are a crapshoot. You might improve things with
better-quality caps, assuming you have the facilities and ability for
changing same.


If the motherboard was built with cheap electrolytics, you may not
get a year out of it. A lot of Chinese capacitors were made with a low
grade electrolyte that causes the foil to be destroyed. It wasn't much
better than the salt water used in early homemade electrolytic caps in
the early days of radio. There were dire warnings not to use any
electrolytics back then, because they would develop high leakage
currents and burn up the power transformer.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Karl Townsend wrote:
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl


Have you checked out the industrial computer suppliers? There's a lot
of folks in your shoes; I would expect that someone at least makes a
PC-104 carrier with a regular ISA slot.

Search on "embedded PC" and "ISA", if you haven't already.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:13:48 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

AMI made almost bulletproof boards way back. Whatever you get you will
want to replace the Low ESR filter caps on the boards.(Generally a
set of 8)

On Apr 29, 7:13*am, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... *These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

You can still buy machines with ISA slots, but they are not typical
consumer machines.

One route that I often see used in industrial environments is PC/104
bus computers with a converter to the ISA bus. This was once useful as
a transition step when an ISA card was available that didn't have a PC/
104 equivalent yet. Today it is extremely unlikely to be that
combination; it's far more likely that the PC/104 card is available
new yet the ISA card hasn't been made in years.

The hardware lifecycle for PC/104 is quite a bit less frenetic than
for consumer PC stuff. Peripheral cards are likely to stay in
production for years and years, not just a few months. At work we
bought a large quantity of PC/104 stuff 7 years ago; today when the
manufacturers change board revisions they still send us updates and
often tell us which new versions are backwards compatible with the old
ones (they want to make sure we don't switch to a different
manufacturer I think!)

Tim.

Depends... I had some old XTs that just would not die. I still have drives
out of some of them as working spares, and I have one "all media" computer
that has some of those original XT floppy drives running today.

The real success story though is a 486 DX 80 that I bought 1st gen and threw
in an old 386 cabinet. I ran that machine 24/7 more than a decade with no
failures of anything. Drives, memory, processors, etc. In fact I think one
of the floppy drives in it is from one of my 386 machines. The last 3 years
I only power it up when I need it a couple times a week, but it still boots
right up and runs like a champ. Only reason I shut it down now is that it
has a nsiy power supply fan that drives me crazy. Can't complain. That
power supply came with the cabinet, and my wife had that computer before we
met. It was totally state of the art back then. LOL.

I have not had that luck with any computer newer than that however. Boards
fail, memory fails, processors get flaky, drives fail, etc etc... However,
I have managed to keep a lot of them going in a pinch just by slowing them
down. Its kind of a shame that its not that easy with a modern BIOS.



"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

I have not had that luck with any computer newer than that however.
Boards
fail, memory fails, processors get flaky, drives fail, etc etc...
However, I have managed to keep a lot of them going in a pinch just by
slowing them down. Its kind of a shame that its not that easy with a
modern BIOS.

The motherboard i use takes a WIDE range of P4 processors. Would it be wise
to buy a few slower ones to swap in a failing unit?

Karl

Karl,

UMMM look back 20 or 30 years, when was the last time you saw a 8080 CP/M
computer....

I'd seriously think about this statment you made...

(Note: I don't think I need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot
of these around)

I haven't seen a *NEW* 3.5 floopy drive in several years though someone
*might* make them

PATA hard disks (you know connected by the wide flat cable) are NO LONGER
MANUFACTURED... It's all SATA now (that skinny red cable)

FYI just to blow your mind, in the SATA world it's getting tough (at the OEM
manufacturing level) to buy a SATA drive SMALLER than 750GB and as of last
week the quotes a customer of mine got had 1TB (yes that's TERABYTE) drives
at a lower cost than 750GB...

Good luck pal...

--.- Dave

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

Dave August wrote:
Karl,

UMMM look back 20 or 30 years, when was the last time you saw a 8080
CP/M computer....

I'd seriously think about this statment you made...

(Note: I don't think I need to do hard and floppy drives yet -
still a lot of these around)

I haven't seen a *NEW* 3.5 floopy drive in several years though
someone *might* make them

PATA hard disks (you know connected by the wide flat cable) are NO
LONGER MANUFACTURED... It's all SATA now (that skinny red cable)

IDE HDD's are still readily available , checked Newegg recently ?

--
Snag
every answer
leads to another
question

Till all the old stock is gone..

Read my post again, NO LONGER MANUFACTURED...

Sure Newegg et-all will sell ya "new old stock" till it's depleted... but
they ain't making em any more.. case closed...

Trust me "SeeCrate" and "EasternAnalog" closed the PATA lines a year ago...

--.- Dave


"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
.. .
Dave August wrote:
Karl,

UMMM look back 20 or 30 years, when was the last time you saw a 8080
CP/M computer....

I'd seriously think about this statment you made...

(Note: I don't think I need to do hard and floppy drives yet -
still a lot of these around)

I haven't seen a *NEW* 3.5 floopy drive in several years though
someone *might* make them

PATA hard disks (you know connected by the wide flat cable) are NO
LONGER MANUFACTURED... It's all SATA now (that skinny red cable)

IDE HDD's are still readily available , checked Newegg recently ?

--
Snag
every answer
leads to another
question

Dave August wrote:

Till all the old stock is gone..

Read my post again, NO LONGER MANUFACTURED...

Sure Newegg et-all will sell ya "new old stock" till it's depleted... but
they ain't making em any more.. case closed...

Trust me "SeeCrate" and "EasternAnalog" closed the PATA lines a year ago...


Solid state hard drive prices are dropping rapidly. They are plug in
replacements for mechanical hard drives. Standard power connectors &
EIDE cables.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

On 2009-05-10, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Dave August wrote:

Till all the old stock is gone..

Read my post again, NO LONGER MANUFACTURED...

Sure Newegg et-all will sell ya "new old stock" till it's depleted... but
they ain't making em any more.. case closed...

Trust me "SeeCrate" and "EasternAnalog" closed the PATA lines a year ago...


Solid state hard drive prices are dropping rapidly. They are plug in
replacements for mechanical hard drives. Standard power connectors &
EIDE cables.

Hmm ... *that* should have better reliability. Assuming that
they don't have the problem that some CF (Compact Flash) cards have when
used for computer boot drives instead of camera media. They have a
limited number of write cycles, so if you are booting from them and
running a lot of things which write all the time, you will eventually
run out of write cycles and it will get to be unreliable. If the solid
state drives have gotten around that, they sound great. What kind of
speeds do they offer?

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Oh yeah one other thing..

What's usually the death of most electronics is the capacitors... the Cap
manufactures have tuned the manufacturing process so close to the bone that
if you get 5 years outts some that good... the also don't age well even un
powered.. so sticking a bunch of boards away as spares will only get you so
far..

Get with the program and to paraphrase Walt Disney "just keep moving
forward"..

--.- Dave


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare
test computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares
am I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I
need to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl

On 2009-04-29, Karl Townsend wrote:
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

That makes sense.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Floppy drives are becoming quite rare already. I'm amazed that
my Sun Blade 2000 still has one -- not all of them do.

Hard drives keep getting bigger, and older BIOS chips and
motherboards have limits on the largest disk drive which they can boot
from and use in their entirity. I would suggest stocking drives of the
maximum size that the motherboard is happy with *now*.

If the power supply used by the motherboards is the ATX style,
you may be able to get them for a while yet. If the older style used by
the PC, XT and AT -- get them *now* at hamfests and flea markets -- or
be prepared to troubleshoot switching mode power supplies *without*
schematics. (I have yet to find a set of schematics for a PC power
supply.)

Get at least two CPU fan/heat-sinks for each system board. The
fans in those tend to fail sooner than most other parts. (And they
*can* take out the CPU too, if you don't spot it in time.)

Make sure that you use the same size memory in all systems, and
you should be able to mix and match to keep enough working sets from a
full set for each working motherboard and spare motherboard.

You can probably use current production graphics cards for a
while at least. Probably you can stock up from discarded cards as the
gamers keep upgrading to faster and hotter cards.

But you know, of course, that the thing most likely to fail will
be the special cards which are forcing you to need the ISA bus to start
with. And those are the most expensive parts too, I'll bet.

For power supplies, and motherboards, you might be able to keep
things running with spare capacitors. (Remember that for a period a lot
of things were made using capacitors with an electrolyte built from a
stolen (and bad) formula, so the filter caps may be the most likely
non-mechanical part to fail.) If you can replace filter caps on the
motherboards and the power supplies, you might be able to keep them
going longer.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2009-04-29, Karl Townsend wrote:
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

That makes sense.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Floppy drives are becoming quite rare already. I'm amazed that
my Sun Blade 2000 still has one -- not all of them do.


I have 360 K, & 1.2 M 5.25", and some 1.44 drives, along with older
CD-ROM drives to install your software. I have at least a half dozen 100
MB ZIP drives, and some oddball streaming tape drives.


Hard drives keep getting bigger, and older BIOS chips and
motherboards have limits on the largest disk drive which they can boot
from and use in their entirity. I would suggest stocking drives of the
maximum size that the motherboard is happy with *now*.


You can always partition a larger hard drive, within reason.


If the power supply used by the motherboards is the ATX style,
you may be able to get them for a while yet. If the older style used by
the PC, XT and AT -- get them *now* at hamfests and flea markets -- or
be prepared to troubleshoot switching mode power supplies *without*
schematics. (I have yet to find a set of schematics for a PC power
supply.)


http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html

http://www.smpspowersupply.com/ATX_p..._schematic.pdf

http://techlabs.nm.ru/Delta-DPS-260EP.ZIP

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/TND313-D.PDF from On
semiconductor goes into the theory of ATX power supply design. It has a
typical circuit & B.O.M.


There are plenty of them online, but all I've seen bad were fans,
shorted semiconductors & bad electrolytics. The datasheet of the
switching regulator usually gives enough data to figure out the
individual design.


I have a pile of working XT, AT & mini tower power sullies.



Get at least two CPU fan/heat-sinks for each system board. The
fans in those tend to fail sooner than most other parts. (And they
*can* take out the CPU too, if you don't spot it in time.)

Make sure that you use the same size memory in all systems, and
you should be able to mix and match to keep enough working sets from a
full set for each working motherboard and spare motherboard.

You can probably use current production graphics cards for a
while at least. Probably you can stock up from discarded cards as the
gamers keep upgrading to faster and hotter cards.

But you know, of course, that the thing most likely to fail will
be the special cards which are forcing you to need the ISA bus to start
with. And those are the most expensive parts too, I'll bet.

For power supplies, and motherboards, you might be able to keep
things running with spare capacitors. (Remember that for a period a lot
of things were made using capacitors with an electrolyte built from a
stolen (and bad) formula, so the filter caps may be the most likely
non-mechanical part to fail.) If you can replace filter caps on the
motherboards and the power supplies, you might be able to keep them
going longer.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

On 2009-05-10, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2009-04-29, Karl Townsend wrote:

[ ... ]

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Floppy drives are becoming quite rare already. I'm amazed that
my Sun Blade 2000 still has one -- not all of them do.


I have 360 K, & 1.2 M 5.25", and some 1.44 drives, along with older
CD-ROM drives to install your software. I have at least a half dozen 100
MB ZIP drives, and some oddball streaming tape drives.

O.K. A stock of drives helps.

Hard drives keep getting bigger, and older BIOS chips and
motherboards have limits on the largest disk drive which they can boot
from and use in their entirity. I would suggest stocking drives of the
maximum size that the motherboard is happy with *now*.


You can always partition a larger hard drive, within reason.

As long as the BIOS can *see* the whole drive. You might wind
up with a 1TB drive and a BIOS (and perhaps controller chips) limiting
you to the first 32 MB of the drive -- nothing else. (What is the max
that the BIOS of the machines which you want to use will see in its
entirity?


If the power supply used by the motherboards is the ATX style,
you may be able to get them for a while yet. If the older style used by
the PC, XT and AT -- get them *now* at hamfests and flea markets -- or
be prepared to troubleshoot switching mode power supplies *without*
schematics. (I have yet to find a set of schematics for a PC power
supply.)


http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html

http://www.smpspowersupply.com/ATX_p..._schematic.pdf

http://techlabs.nm.ru/Delta-DPS-260EP.ZIP

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/TND313-D.PDF from On
semiconductor goes into the theory of ATX power supply design. It has a
typical circuit & B.O.M.

Great! I wish that similar schematics had been available for
other switching mode power supplies which I had die. They were treated
as proprietary -- if the maker were even still in business. :-)

I note that all of these are for the ATX style power supplies.
Is that what your systems use? I wasn't sure from what you had posted.

And the only switching mode power supply which I actually
succeeded in repairing was one in a dot matrix printer some decades ago.
That one was simple enough so I was able to trace it all out (lots of
unsoldering transformers to be able to measure resistances and such,
those very few turn transformer windings really make tracing things
difficult. It turned out to be a power resistor which was feeding
forward enough voltage to get the switcher started. I packed my traced
schematic in the printer when I closed it up. :-)

There are plenty of them online, but all I've seen bad were fans,
shorted semiconductors & bad electrolytics. The datasheet of the
switching regulator usually gives enough data to figure out the
individual design.


I have a pile of working XT, AT & mini tower power sullies.

O.K. So *not* all ATX then.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Karl Townsend wrote:
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

I got curious when I should have been doing some productive work and
found some USB to ISA adapters out there. It presumably requires some
really oddball drivers, but they seemed to feel it would even work in
DOS, as long as you were running it out of Windows.

Per other suggestions, it may be better to find another way to drive the
machines, even if it means doing a ton of work on software.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Apr 30, 11:28 am, Tim Wescott wrote:

I got curious when I should have been doing some productive work and
found some USB to ISA adapters out there. It presumably requires some
really oddball drivers, but they seemed to feel it would even work in
DOS, as long as you were running it out of Windows.

Very unlikely to work for machine control purposes. USB has a very
high latency delay, so even if you manage to successfully fake out the
software and tunnel everything over the USB to the ISA emulator, it
will be extremely slow, way too slow for any kind of bus-in-the-loop
or realtime application.

You see the same problem even with USB-serial adapters - send blocks
of characters and everything is fine, but try to have two devices
interact character-by-character and the latency kills you.

I've had one 40MHZ ISA dos box running almost continuously since about
1994. Hard drive too. The PSU doesn't even get warm. It just plods
through it's Dos programs.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Karl Townsend wrote:
I now have four metal mangling machines that need the venerable ISA slot to
operate... These computers are not available new anymore and the new parts
route is about gone too.

I'm settling around one motherboard, CPU, memory, video card combination.
Makes it much easier to maintain. I can do an entire computer swap in
minutes if trouble happens. Or test one component at a time in a spare test
computer.

lets say I'd like to run these machines another 20 years. How many spares am
I likely to need? I'd like to buy them up now. (Note: I don't think I need
to do hard and floppy drives yet - still a lot of these around)

Karl



--
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Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
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Dependence is Vulnerability:
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"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."