I have a 220v 30a double breaker in its own outdoor box (Gould WEQ2
ITE, whatever that means), about 35 yr old, that is connected only to
an upstairs window AC and an outdoor outlet. Since the shop is very
close to the house, I've never properly wired the shop. I just plug a
homebuilt extension cord into the outdoor outlet to run my lathe,
drill press, etc. (Lathe is the only tool that draws 220; I have a DC
motor with regulator that runs up to 180 V on it.)

Anyway, one side of the breaker where it pushes into a (aluminum)
terminal in the box apparently corroded to some extent, then shorted
out. I don't know when it happened but was thinking some sort of
power surge during the Feb ice storm in this neck of the woods, which
knocked out power to the county for five days and ours for almost two
weeks.

Wondering (a) why only one side would short that way; (b) is aluminum
suitable for those terminals, or is that old technology, away from
which I should run; (c) where I could get a new terminal (10 minute
job) instead of replacing the whole box (electricity off for several
hours).

Insight? Comments? Physical threats?

Best -- Terry

I've had this happen before on a breaker that was feeding a 220V hot
water heater, and also on another 220 breaker feeding a clothes
dryer. Just replace the breaker.

Don't understand what was aluminum, the breaker terminal or the bar
the breaker clips into. Aluminum was popular for a while for wiring,
but is bad in the real world. You could also replace the outside
breaker box.... Joel in Florida
=======
Wondering (a) why only one side would short that way; (b) is aluminum
suitable for those terminals, or is that old technology, away from
which I should run; (c) where I could get a new terminal (10 minute
job) instead of replacing the whole box (electricity off for several
hours).

Insight? *Comments? *Physical threats?

Best -- Terry

Terry wrote:

I have a 220v 30a double breaker in its own outdoor box (Gould WEQ2
ITE, whatever that means), about 35 yr old, that is connected only to
an upstairs window AC and an outdoor outlet. Since the shop is very
close to the house, I've never properly wired the shop. I just plug a
homebuilt extension cord into the outdoor outlet to run my lathe,
drill press, etc. (Lathe is the only tool that draws 220; I have a DC
motor with regulator that runs up to 180 V on it.)

Anyway, one side of the breaker where it pushes into a (aluminum)
terminal in the box apparently corroded to some extent, then shorted
out. I don't know when it happened but was thinking some sort of
power surge during the Feb ice storm in this neck of the woods, which
knocked out power to the county for five days and ours for almost two
weeks.

Wondering (a) why only one side would short that way; (b) is aluminum
suitable for those terminals, or is that old technology, away from
which I should run; (c) where I could get a new terminal (10 minute
job) instead of replacing the whole box (electricity off for several
hours).

Insight? Comments? Physical threats?

Best -- Terry


Replace the box, unless you want to lose another breaker. The
resistance of connection on that side of the breaker went up enough that
it got hot. Scrap the whole mess, unless you want a fire that could
destroy your home. Is losing your life worth saving a couple hours?

As far as aluminum, there is nothing wrong with it, as long as the
mating connector is suitable. It should have a protective coating like
'no-ox' to keep condensation of of the contact area.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 05:13:37 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

I've had this happen before on a breaker that was feeding a 220V hot
water heater, and also on another 220 breaker feeding a clothes
dryer. Just replace the breaker.

Don't understand what was aluminum, the breaker terminal or the bar
the breaker clips into. Aluminum was popular for a while for wiring,
but is bad in the real world. You could also replace the outside
breaker box.... Joel in Florida
=======
Wondering (a) why only one side would short that way; (b) is aluminum
suitable for those terminals, or is that old technology, away from
which I should run; (c) where I could get a new terminal (10 minute
job) instead of replacing the whole box (electricity off for several
hours).

Insight? *Comments? *Physical threats?

Best -- Terry

Hi Joel, the lug that the breaker pushes into is aluminum. Copper
wire runs from the main breaker box and fastens to that lug with a set
screw. It's a dual breaker for 220; one lug is still good, the other
is trash. That lug and the breaker both needed to be replaced. As I
found out this morning after visiting five different shops, replacing
the breaker was easy; the lug was impossible (too old).

One guy suggested pulling the 'guts' from a new box and installing it
in the old one. No thanks. Resigned myself to several hours* w/o
electricity this weekend while I replace the entire box with a SquareD
box n breaker.

Thanks -- Terry
*If I was smart 'n everything, I'd probably be able to do the job in
30 minutes. Learned long ago that I'm not that smart and I'll always
underestimate the time for the job, especially when I've never done it
before... And I'll make at least three more trips to the electrical
shop on Saturday, probably...

I don't follow what burnt, but a common issue is:

Bad connection-heat-thermal creep makes screw loosen
-worse connection-more heat-breaker fails and/or fire.

Some commercial insurers require thermograms of the breaker panels
annually. You should consider torquing down the connections every year or
so.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Terry wrote:

One guy suggested pulling the 'guts' from a new box and installing it
in the old one. No thanks. Resigned myself to several hours* w/o
electricity this weekend while I replace the entire box with a SquareD
box n breaker.

Thanks -- Terry
*If I was smart 'n everything, I'd probably be able to do the job in
30 minutes. Learned long ago that I'm not that smart and I'll always
underestimate the time for the job, especially when I've never done it
before... And I'll make at least three more trips to the electrical
shop on Saturday, probably...

I'm a little confused why you'll be out power so long...

You say the breaker is in it's own box, so kill power and open the box
feeding this one, disconnect the feeder at the source, tape off the
exposed ends and tie out of harms way, re-energise the system, now you
have a dead feeder in the separate box and can do all your work while
the rest of the house has power, once the fix is done, turn off the
house and tie the feeder back in.

Stuart

On Apr 23, 4:19*am, Terry wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 05:13:37 -0700 (PDT), "



wrote:
I've had this happen before on a breaker that was feeding a 220V hot
water heater, and also on another 220 breaker feeding a clothes
dryer. *Just replace the breaker.

Don't understand what was aluminum, the breaker terminal or the bar
the breaker clips into. *Aluminum was popular for a while for wiring,
but is bad in the real world. *You could also replace the outside
breaker box.... Joel in Florida
=======
Wondering (a) why only one side would short that way; (b) is aluminum
suitable for those terminals, or is that old technology, away from
which I should run; (c) where I could get a new terminal (10 minute
job) instead of replacing the whole box (electricity off for several
hours).

Insight? *Comments? *Physical threats?

Best -- Terry

Hi Joel, the lug that the breaker pushes into is aluminum. *Copper
wire runs from the main breaker box and fastens to that lug with a set
screw. *It's a dual breaker for 220; one lug is still good, the other
is trash. *That lug and the breaker both needed to be replaced. *As I
found out this morning after visiting five different shops, replacing
the breaker was easy; the lug was impossible (too old).

One guy suggested pulling the 'guts' from a new box and installing it
in the old one. *No thanks. *Resigned myself to several hours* w/o
electricity this weekend while I replace the entire box with a SquareD
box n breaker.

Thanks -- Terry
*If I was smart 'n everything, I'd probably be able to do the job in
30 minutes. *Learned long ago that I'm not that smart and I'll always
underestimate the time for the job, especially when I've never done it
before... And I'll make at least three more trips to the electrical
shop on Saturday, probably...

If you don't have any empty space you can put in a couple split
breakers to get the the correct amperages and voltages in place of a
couple good breakers, it's actually called duplex circuit breaker (or
"half-size branch circuit breaker"). They have them at Home Depot. You
get two poles in the space of one standard breaker but they're the
same side of the power so you need two side by side to get both sides
of the 220. You can get different amperages on each duplex breaker so
you can match the breakers your replacing and the old 30 amp 220. So
you replace the good 30 breaker with one duplex and then the one
beside it with a 30 amp and what ever that breaker is duplex. Here's a
pictu
http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-56254/Detail

We use these all the time when the box is full and we need a new
circuit.

Karl

I think you already got enough replies, but here's my comment the your
first question:
Nothing "shorted out". The connection point actually "opened up".
A "short" or "short circuit" occurs when two conductors that are at
different potentials come into contact with eachother-- as in the
wires in a extension cord get rubbed together for a long time and
finally the "hot" and the neutral touch.
The resistance between the "aluminum lugs" and the tabs on the
circuit breaker must be very low for the connection to pass,
essentially, all the current in the circuit. If this resistance is VERY
low, then the voltage drop across the connection will be very low and
then the POWER (heat) disspated at that connection will be very low, too.
In your case, all that needed to happen is that any little bit of
corrosion at the point where the two parts touch, or any little bit of
crud that might have gotten into the connection back when it was
assembled, caused the resistance at the junction to increase, causing
heat to generated there. The more heat, the faster the corrosion
occurs,etc,etc, to failure.
I tell you this in answer to your question--- either connection
could do this independently of the other one.

Pete Stanaitis
-------------------

Terry wrote:
I have a 220v 30a double breaker in its own outdoor box (Gould WEQ2
ITE, whatever that means), about 35 yr old, that is connected only to
an upstairs window AC and an outdoor outlet. Since the shop is very
close to the house, I've never properly wired the shop. I just plug a
homebuilt extension cord into the outdoor outlet to run my lathe,
drill press, etc. (Lathe is the only tool that draws 220; I have a DC
motor with regulator that runs up to 180 V on it.)

Anyway, one side of the breaker where it pushes into a (aluminum)
terminal in the box apparently corroded to some extent, then shorted
out. I don't know when it happened but was thinking some sort of
power surge during the Feb ice storm in this neck of the woods, which
knocked out power to the county for five days and ours for almost two
weeks.

Wondering (a) why only one side would short that way; (b) is aluminum
suitable for those terminals, or is that old technology, away from
which I should run; (c) where I could get a new terminal (10 minute
job) instead of replacing the whole box (electricity off for several
hours).

Insight? Comments? Physical threats?

Best -- Terry

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:57:36 -0400, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:

Terry wrote:

One guy suggested pulling the 'guts' from a new box and installing it
in the old one. No thanks. Resigned myself to several hours* w/o
electricity this weekend while I replace the entire box with a SquareD
box n breaker.

Thanks -- Terry
*If I was smart 'n everything, I'd probably be able to do the job in
30 minutes. Learned long ago that I'm not that smart and I'll always
underestimate the time for the job, especially when I've never done it
before... And I'll make at least three more trips to the electrical
shop on Saturday, probably...

I'm a little confused why you'll be out power so long...

You say the breaker is in it's own box, so kill power and open the box
feeding this one, disconnect the feeder at the source, tape off the
exposed ends and tie out of harms way, re-energise the system, now you
have a dead feeder in the separate box and can do all your work while
the rest of the house has power, once the fix is done, turn off the
house and tie the feeder back in.

Stuart

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

Stuart... I toldya I wasn't smart. :-) Special thanks, your solution
simply hadn't occurred to me. (I tend to be leery of electrons.
Couple years back, I removed a fuse from a circuit to work on it.
Happily, the line touched a ground inadvertently. BIG blue-white
spark two feet from my face. There was a burn trace in the box that I
hadn't noticed, it provided a conductive path. Whole new box
installed by professional electrician) Anyway, disconnecting at the
mains should be fine.

For "what's burnt": when you push a breaker in place, it makes a
connection at the top, where an aluminum (?) tab sticks out from the
box. That tab is hot. That tab is now burned off and/or corroded
away. Which explains why I can't use a dual skinny breaker. I need
both sides of the line to get 220V, and one side is burnt off in the
box; there's nothing for the breaker to connect to the line. If I
could install a new tab... I'd do it. But the tab is not to be found.

Thanks again, all -- Terry

The Gould ITE box is junk. Was junk on the day it was installed. Finding
an old box with more buss is not the way to go.

What Stewart said about making the feeder dead, work away with the house
power on.

While you are at it: how about thinking about doing the base work for a
proper feed to the garage? Don't need to install the wire now, just
leave the appropriate space for it.

Terry wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:57:36 -0400, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:

Terry wrote:

One guy suggested pulling the 'guts' from a new box and installing it
in the old one. No thanks. Resigned myself to several hours* w/o
electricity this weekend while I replace the entire box with a SquareD
box n breaker.

Thanks -- Terry
*If I was smart 'n everything, I'd probably be able to do the job in
30 minutes. Learned long ago that I'm not that smart and I'll always
underestimate the time for the job, especially when I've never done it
before... And I'll make at least three more trips to the electrical
shop on Saturday, probably...
I'm a little confused why you'll be out power so long...

You say the breaker is in it's own box, so kill power and open the box
feeding this one, disconnect the feeder at the source, tape off the
exposed ends and tie out of harms way, re-energise the system, now you
have a dead feeder in the separate box and can do all your work while
the rest of the house has power, once the fix is done, turn off the
house and tie the feeder back in.

Stuart

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

Stuart... I toldya I wasn't smart. :-) Special thanks, your solution
simply hadn't occurred to me. (I tend to be leery of electrons.
Couple years back, I removed a fuse from a circuit to work on it.
Happily, the line touched a ground inadvertently. BIG blue-white
spark two feet from my face. There was a burn trace in the box that I
hadn't noticed, it provided a conductive path. Whole new box
installed by professional electrician) Anyway, disconnecting at the
mains should be fine.

For "what's burnt": when you push a breaker in place, it makes a
connection at the top, where an aluminum (?) tab sticks out from the
box. That tab is hot. That tab is now burned off and/or corroded
away. Which explains why I can't use a dual skinny breaker. I need
both sides of the line to get 220V, and one side is burnt off in the
box; there's nothing for the breaker to connect to the line. If I
could install a new tab... I'd do it. But the tab is not to be found.

Thanks again, all -- Terry

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 06:27:02 -0500, Terry
wrote:

I have a 220v 30a double breaker in its own outdoor box (Gould WEQ2
ITE, whatever that means), about 35 yr old, that is connected only to
an upstairs window AC and an outdoor outlet. Since the shop is very
close to the house, I've never properly wired the shop. I just plug a
homebuilt extension cord into the outdoor outlet to run my lathe,
drill press, etc. (Lathe is the only tool that draws 220; I have a DC
motor with regulator that runs up to 180 V on it.)

Gould and ITE were bought out by Siemens. If you want the easiest
replacement where the dimensions and physical layout of the knockouts
match, get a Murray or Siemens sub-panel.

Anyway, one side of the breaker where it pushes into a (aluminum)
terminal in the box apparently corroded to some extent, then shorted
out. I don't know when it happened but was thinking some sort of
power surge during the Feb ice storm in this neck of the woods, which
knocked out power to the county for five days and ours for almost two
weeks.

Wondering (a) why only one side would short that way; (b) is aluminum
suitable for those terminals, or is that old technology, away from
which I should run; (c) where I could get a new terminal (10 minute
job) instead of replacing the whole box (electricity off for several
hours).

A) The aluminum buss in the breaker panel went bad, and that killed
the breaker stab where it plugs in.

B) It's newer technology, driven by price to the end user - you
can't let the competition sell their breaker panel for a buck less,
they'll take all your sales. The 'builder model' panels have tin-
plated aluminum busses to save a buck over using copper busses, and
for the average use in a nice dry location they work just fine for 30
to 50 years - that is, till the tin plating wears through from breaker
changes or is otherwise broken, thin plating on an edge with a burr
can do it.

The aluminum oxide 'corrosion' eats it's way under the tin plate and
the connection goes bad - aluminum oxide is an insulator...

C) You aren't going to get a new terminal - the catalog and the
label on the door says they sell replacement interiors for panels. But
the reality is you can special order it, wait weeks for them to make
and ship it, and pay double the cost of a new panel.

If your old steel can isn't rusted and they still make that brand of
breaker (not an orphan like Zinsco or Federal Pacific) and that model
of panel (or something close) you can buy one and do a "Gut Swap" -
mount the new interior in your old can, and save the trouble of
physically swapping the steel box...

But the legalities of a Gut Swap are a bit murky, so it's not the
first choice - and NOT for the DIY-er!! You usually have to modify
pieces and drill new mounting holes, and it has to be thought through
from both the mechanical and electrical angles, insulation sysrtems, .
Otherwise the whole thing shorts out when you reenergize it, and there
is going to be some 'splainin' to do.

(This is normally used on large interior panels flush-mounted in the
wall with a dozen or more conduits leaving, where it would be a two or
three day gold-plated ******* of a job to swap the steel can - and the
residents can't be off for three days, so you have to rig up temporary
power. And then you have to repair the big hole in the wall you made
for access, and prime and paint...)

They DO sell new breaker panels with copper busses, but unless you
work with a coastal wholesale house that gets a lot of call for them
you usually have to special order them. If you are anywhere near the
ocean (or working on a boat power system), they are a necessity, the
salt air tears up exposed aluminum with a vengeance.

(The Boss had a big go-round with a customer on the cost when I
insisted on a copper buss panel - a rental house where the owner
didn't want to spend a dime more than necessary, but I didn't want to
go do it again in 5 years because "You did a crappy job!!" The house
is built on wood pilings over the beach,10' above mean high tide line,
the old panel was physically fine except for the corrosion.)

If this sub-panel breaker box was scabbed on to your existing main
panel (using the "10 Foot Tap Rule") because it is out of spaces,
sounds more like you need to change out the Main Panel. Changing this
sub-panel might be putting a band-aid on a limb amputation.

What does the rest of the electrical system consist of, and how big
is the house? (Define the REAL problem...)

Changing out the Main can be a huge job if you have to upgrade from
a 30A 4-circuit plug fuse fusebox from the 1930's or 70A "Crowfoot"
six-breaker panel from the 1950's to a modern 200A 40-breaker panel,
and then rooting out the bad wire in the house (anything before the
1950's is probably Rubber insulation, and suspect) to something
approaching current standards - but it's still a Whole Lot Cheaper
than rebuilding the house after the fire. Trust me on this.

-- Bruce --

On Apr 26, 1:51*am, Bruce L. Bergman

* B) *It's newer technology, driven by price to the end user - you
can't let the competition sell their breaker panel for a buck less,
they'll take all your sales. *The 'builder model' panels have tin-
plated aluminum busses to save a buck over using copper busses, and
for the average use in a nice dry location they work just fine for 30
to 50 years - that is, till the tin plating wears through from breaker
changes or is otherwise broken, thin plating on an edge with a burr
can do it.


* * -- Bruce --

When did the change to aluminum buss bars occur? I was not aware they
had done that. Will have to check the panels here.

Dan

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:23:52 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 26, 1:51*am, Bruce L. Bergman

* B) *It's newer technology, driven by price to the end user - you
can't let the competition sell their breaker panel for a buck less,
they'll take all your sales. *The 'builder model' panels have tin-
plated aluminum busses to save a buck over using copper busses, and
for the average use in a nice dry location they work just fine for 30
to 50 years - that is, till the tin plating wears through from breaker
changes or is otherwise broken, thin plating on an edge with a burr
can do it.


* * -- Bruce --

When did the change to aluminum buss bars occur? I was not aware they
had done that. Will have to check the panels here.

Dan

Oh heck, that started in the late Fifties, when Copper got more
expensive than AL. They are the norm now for small panels - If the
bars are tin plated, they are most likely Aluminum.

Some large industrial panelboards were designed to use Aluminum main
busses in larger amperages - a lot of Zinsco (Sylvania) switchboard
distribution sections and panelboards still out there that push 400A
through big L-shaped extruded aluminum busbars to Q style breakers.

They usually leave Copper busbars bare, and the patina is the real
symbol of Quality.

-- Bruce --

David Lesher wrote:
I don't follow what burnt, but a common issue is:

Bad connection-heat-thermal creep makes screw loosen
-worse connection-more heat-breaker fails and/or fire.

Some commercial insurers require thermograms of the breaker panels
annually. You should consider torquing down the connections every
year or so.

The real problem here is that the breaker was on an aluminum tab . Al
oxidizes , which creates a poor connection , which produces heat , which
fries the tab . And that's why I replaced my whole house breaker box a
couple years ago . I didn't have enough good tabs left for the essential
circuits , much less the shop/shed and other niceties . Got a nice big one
now with copper bus bars and tabs . And a dedicate hunnerd amp breaker for
the shed ... now I need the city to upgrade my service !
--
Snag
every answer
leads to another
question