On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:48:32 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Jim Chandler" wrote

The rise in gun sales is due to one thing and one thing only.
America's number one gun salesman....Barack Obama! The NRA had
nothing to do with it. Only a small percentage of those buying guns
and ammo since his election are NRA members.

Jim

I find it somewhat reassuring to see all the new people at the gun shows,
pawn shops and gun shops. Looks like a lot of "closet wingers" are coming
out. BTW, my sister-in-law just got her first gun, a new 9mm KAHR. Lovely
piece. Both of them. I love the way the KAHR fits in my hand, but can only
dream of that other piece.

Steve

If the Kahr is a polymer piece (CW9,etc), I tried real hard to like it
a coupla years ago and just couldn't get there though some folks do. I
found it unacceptably harsh to practice with, and I regard regular
practice as imperative. I also couldn't convince myself that I could
ever get to like the Kahr DAO trigger though I do like the concept.

I've never tried the all-metal, heavier and pricier K9 because I could
never find one to even handle, much less rent or borrow to fire.

The Springfield EMP is nice but very pricy and I don't want to carry
cocked and locked because I worry that I'll forget the damned safety
under stress. I know of one highly-trained Navy Seal that made that
error under combat condx, damn near bought it that day. I'm just a
senior civilian...

I recently stumbled upon a used-but-mint Para-Ordnance Carry 9 that I
could handle if not fire. It has their LDA (light double action)
trigger, is about the same size as a Kahr.

I'd been wanting to try one of these or a PDA for a while now but
nobody ever seemed to have one on hand. I figured I probably wouldn't
like their trigger any better than I did the Kahr.

WRONG! Put that in big red caps, boldface. I liked it a LOT. It's
basically a compact 1911 design in 9mmp but with the LDA action.

Good price, piece looked about unused, I didn't blink. That one
followed me home. I've now put maybe 100 rounds thru it. I am flat
amazed at how accurate that small pistol is in my hands. I say "in my
hands" because I don't care how accurate it might be in someone
else's hands unless they're defending me which ain't bloody likely. I
credit the pistol rather than my hands but whatever, it sure works fer
me.

I can very comfortably shoot a 100-round session with the little Carry
9 and we (it and I) put all or nearly all of those rounds in the max
score zone of a B-27 or LTR-II silhouette at 25 feet. It's very close
in size and weight to my PPK in .380, but it shoots a whole bunch
better for me and it uses the significantly more powerful 9mmp ammo.
Shot placement is more important than caliber, but good shot placement
with more powerful caliber is a good thing. A handgun is what a
soldier uses to fight his way to a rifle. I'm a senior civilian, not
a sojer.

I shoot a very slightly larger and heavier Colt Officer's 1911 in
..45ACP nearly as well, but I strongly prefer Para's LDA action for
infrequent carry with a round in the pipe.

YMMV, of course, merely reporting my experience.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:48:32 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Jim Chandler" wrote

The rise in gun sales is due to one thing and one thing only.
America's number one gun salesman....Barack Obama! The NRA had
nothing to do with it. Only a small percentage of those buying guns
and ammo since his election are NRA members.

Jim

I find it somewhat reassuring to see all the new people at the gun shows,
pawn shops and gun shops. Looks like a lot of "closet wingers" are coming
out. BTW, my sister-in-law just got her first gun, a new 9mm KAHR.
Lovely
piece. Both of them. I love the way the KAHR fits in my hand, but can
only
dream of that other piece.

Steve

If the Kahr is a polymer piece (CW9,etc), I tried real hard to like it
a coupla years ago and just couldn't get there though some folks do. I
found it unacceptably harsh to practice with, and I regard regular
practice as imperative. I also couldn't convince myself that I could
ever get to like the Kahr DAO trigger though I do like the concept.

I've never tried the all-metal, heavier and pricier K9 because I could
never find one to even handle, much less rent or borrow to fire.

The Springfield EMP is nice but very pricy and I don't want to carry
cocked and locked because I worry that I'll forget the damned safety
under stress. I know of one highly-trained Navy Seal that made that
error under combat condx, damn near bought it that day. I'm just a
senior civilian...

I recently stumbled upon a used-but-mint Para-Ordnance Carry 9 that I
could handle if not fire. It has their LDA (light double action)
trigger, is about the same size as a Kahr.

I'd been wanting to try one of these or a PDA for a while now but
nobody ever seemed to have one on hand. I figured I probably wouldn't
like their trigger any better than I did the Kahr.

WRONG! Put that in big red caps, boldface. I liked it a LOT. It's
basically a compact 1911 design in 9mmp but with the LDA action.

Good price, piece looked about unused, I didn't blink. That one
followed me home. I've now put maybe 100 rounds thru it. I am flat
amazed at how accurate that small pistol is in my hands. I say "in my
hands" because I don't care how accurate it might be in someone
else's hands unless they're defending me which ain't bloody likely. I
credit the pistol rather than my hands but whatever, it sure works fer
me.

I can very comfortably shoot a 100-round session with the little Carry
9 and we (it and I) put all or nearly all of those rounds in the max
score zone of a B-27 or LTR-II silhouette at 25 feet. It's very close
in size and weight to my PPK in .380, but it shoots a whole bunch
better for me and it uses the significantly more powerful 9mmp ammo.
Shot placement is more important than caliber, but good shot placement
with more powerful caliber is a good thing. A handgun is what a
soldier uses to fight his way to a rifle. I'm a senior civilian, not
a sojer.

I shoot a very slightly larger and heavier Colt Officer's 1911 in
.45ACP nearly as well, but I strongly prefer Para's LDA action for
infrequent carry with a round in the pipe.

YMMV, of course, merely reporting my experience.

I went today and had my reup for CCF notarized to send in. I am not sure if
I have a new pistol on the event horizon, but would like to find a 9 that I
am comfortable with. Will check out the Para Ordinance stuff. I currently
have a very small KelTec 3AT which I like, but just want something that
throws a larger bullet. Thank.s

Steve

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:07:59 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:48:32 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Jim Chandler" wrote

The rise in gun sales is due to one thing and one thing only.
America's number one gun salesman....Barack Obama! The NRA had
nothing to do with it. Only a small percentage of those buying guns
and ammo since his election are NRA members.

Jim

I find it somewhat reassuring to see all the new people at the gun shows,
pawn shops and gun shops. Looks like a lot of "closet wingers" are coming
out. BTW, my sister-in-law just got her first gun, a new 9mm KAHR.
Lovely
piece. Both of them. I love the way the KAHR fits in my hand, but can
only
dream of that other piece.

Steve

If the Kahr is a polymer piece (CW9,etc), I tried real hard to like it
a coupla years ago and just couldn't get there though some folks do. I
found it unacceptably harsh to practice with, and I regard regular
practice as imperative. I also couldn't convince myself that I could
ever get to like the Kahr DAO trigger though I do like the concept.

I've never tried the all-metal, heavier and pricier K9 because I could
never find one to even handle, much less rent or borrow to fire.

The Springfield EMP is nice but very pricy and I don't want to carry
cocked and locked because I worry that I'll forget the damned safety
under stress. I know of one highly-trained Navy Seal that made that
error under combat condx, damn near bought it that day. I'm just a
senior civilian...

I recently stumbled upon a used-but-mint Para-Ordnance Carry 9 that I
could handle if not fire. It has their LDA (light double action)
trigger, is about the same size as a Kahr.

I'd been wanting to try one of these or a PDA for a while now but
nobody ever seemed to have one on hand. I figured I probably wouldn't
like their trigger any better than I did the Kahr.

WRONG! Put that in big red caps, boldface. I liked it a LOT. It's
basically a compact 1911 design in 9mmp but with the LDA action.

Good price, piece looked about unused, I didn't blink. That one
followed me home. I've now put maybe 100 rounds thru it. I am flat
amazed at how accurate that small pistol is in my hands. I say "in my
hands" because I don't care how accurate it might be in someone
else's hands unless they're defending me which ain't bloody likely. I
credit the pistol rather than my hands but whatever, it sure works fer
me.

I can very comfortably shoot a 100-round session with the little Carry
9 and we (it and I) put all or nearly all of those rounds in the max
score zone of a B-27 or LTR-II silhouette at 25 feet. It's very close
in size and weight to my PPK in .380, but it shoots a whole bunch
better for me and it uses the significantly more powerful 9mmp ammo.
Shot placement is more important than caliber, but good shot placement
with more powerful caliber is a good thing. A handgun is what a
soldier uses to fight his way to a rifle. I'm a senior civilian, not
a sojer.

I shoot a very slightly larger and heavier Colt Officer's 1911 in
.45ACP nearly as well, but I strongly prefer Para's LDA action for
infrequent carry with a round in the pipe.

YMMV, of course, merely reporting my experience.

I went today and had my reup for CCF notarized to send in. I am not sure if
I have a new pistol on the event horizon, but would like to find a 9 that I
am comfortable with. Will check out the Para Ordinance stuff. I currently
have a very small KelTec 3AT which I like, but just want something that
throws a larger bullet. Thank.s

Steve

That was my thought too. I like my PPK but 9mmp delivers about 70%
more energy than .380 (comparing 90 gn .380 Hydrashok to 124 gn 9mmp
Hydrashock). The Para 9's are considerably larger and heavier than
the Kel-Tec 3AT and Ruger LCP, though.

I personally don't like the Kahr 9's but a lot of people do. They look
like well-designed and well-made pistols and they've gotten very good
reviews.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:07:59 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:48:32 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

"Jim Chandler" wrote

The rise in gun sales is due to one thing and one thing only.
America's number one gun salesman....Barack Obama! The NRA had
nothing to do with it. Only a small percentage of those buying guns
and ammo since his election are NRA members.

Jim
I find it somewhat reassuring to see all the new people at the gun shows,
pawn shops and gun shops. Looks like a lot of "closet wingers" are coming
out. BTW, my sister-in-law just got her first gun, a new 9mm KAHR.
Lovely
piece. Both of them. I love the way the KAHR fits in my hand, but can
only
dream of that other piece.

Steve

If the Kahr is a polymer piece (CW9,etc), I tried real hard to like it
a coupla years ago and just couldn't get there though some folks do. I
found it unacceptably harsh to practice with, and I regard regular
practice as imperative. I also couldn't convince myself that I could
ever get to like the Kahr DAO trigger though I do like the concept.

I've never tried the all-metal, heavier and pricier K9 because I could
never find one to even handle, much less rent or borrow to fire.

The Springfield EMP is nice but very pricy and I don't want to carry
cocked and locked because I worry that I'll forget the damned safety
under stress. I know of one highly-trained Navy Seal that made that
error under combat condx, damn near bought it that day. I'm just a
senior civilian...

I recently stumbled upon a used-but-mint Para-Ordnance Carry 9 that I
could handle if not fire. It has their LDA (light double action)
trigger, is about the same size as a Kahr.

I'd been wanting to try one of these or a PDA for a while now but
nobody ever seemed to have one on hand. I figured I probably wouldn't
like their trigger any better than I did the Kahr.

WRONG! Put that in big red caps, boldface. I liked it a LOT. It's
basically a compact 1911 design in 9mmp but with the LDA action.

Good price, piece looked about unused, I didn't blink. That one
followed me home. I've now put maybe 100 rounds thru it. I am flat
amazed at how accurate that small pistol is in my hands. I say "in my
hands" because I don't care how accurate it might be in someone
else's hands unless they're defending me which ain't bloody likely. I
credit the pistol rather than my hands but whatever, it sure works fer
me.

I can very comfortably shoot a 100-round session with the little Carry
9 and we (it and I) put all or nearly all of those rounds in the max
score zone of a B-27 or LTR-II silhouette at 25 feet. It's very close
in size and weight to my PPK in .380, but it shoots a whole bunch
better for me and it uses the significantly more powerful 9mmp ammo.
Shot placement is more important than caliber, but good shot placement
with more powerful caliber is a good thing. A handgun is what a
soldier uses to fight his way to a rifle. I'm a senior civilian, not
a sojer.

I shoot a very slightly larger and heavier Colt Officer's 1911 in
.45ACP nearly as well, but I strongly prefer Para's LDA action for
infrequent carry with a round in the pipe.

YMMV, of course, merely reporting my experience.
I went today and had my reup for CCF notarized to send in. I am not sure if
I have a new pistol on the event horizon, but would like to find a 9 that I
am comfortable with. Will check out the Para Ordinance stuff. I currently
have a very small KelTec 3AT which I like, but just want something that
throws a larger bullet. Thank.s

Steve

That was my thought too. I like my PPK but 9mmp delivers about 70%
more energy than .380 (comparing 90 gn .380 Hydrashok to 124 gn 9mmp
Hydrashock). The Para 9's are considerably larger and heavier than
the Kel-Tec 3AT and Ruger LCP, though.

I personally don't like the Kahr 9's but a lot of people do. They look
like well-designed and well-made pistols and they've gotten very good
reviews.

I'll stick with my .380.

Abd hope I don't need to use it...

"cavelamb himself" wrote

I'll stick with my .380.

Abd hope I don't need to use it...

I like my 3AT for concealability. I was surprised I qualified so high with
a single action. At least if I do get in a jam, I think I can put some
holes in my target, and after that, you just gotta roll the dice.

Steve

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:48:49 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

I was surprised I qualified so high with
a single action. At least if I do get in a jam, I think I can put some
holes in my target, and after that, you just gotta roll the dice.

Steve

You probably meant to say double action.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:48:49 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

I was surprised I qualified so high with
a single action. At least if I do get in a jam, I think I can put some
holes in my target, and after that, you just gotta roll the dice.

Steve

You probably meant to say double action.

Maybe, I don't know. The Keltec 3 AT requires a full trigger pull for each
shot, like a revolver. Other semis I have will take a full trigger pull and
hammer travel for the first round, then the slide cocks the hammer, and it
takes only a slight trigger pull for each subsequent shot. Shots can be
fired very rapidly after the first. The Keltec, as with a revolver can be
fired only as fast as you can fully pull the trigger, and let it return to
its starting position. If I have the nomenclature mixed up, please explain
it. I know it took me a long time to get polarity straight (no pun
intended) when it comes to welding.

Steve

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:01:24 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

I'll stick with my .380.

Abd hope I don't need to use it...

I have seen shot placement some can achieve with the small .380's.
Perhaps you are one of them. I'm not one of them, and practice with
the small ones (3AT,LCP) would not be fun so I wouldn't do it.

I share your hope of never needing to use whatever we each might
choose. I'm quite confident that I never shall unless something
changes ...but catastrophic change can happen suddenly, e.g. Katrina.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:49:34 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:48:49 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

I was surprised I qualified so high with
a single action. At least if I do get in a jam, I think I can put some
holes in my target, and after that, you just gotta roll the dice.

Steve

You probably meant to say double action.

Maybe, I don't know. The Keltec 3 AT requires a full trigger pull for each
shot, like a revolver. Other semis I have will take a full trigger pull and
hammer travel for the first round, then the slide cocks the hammer, and it
takes only a slight trigger pull for each subsequent shot. Shots can be
fired very rapidly after the first. The Keltec, as with a revolver can be
fired only as fast as you can fully pull the trigger, and let it return to
its starting position. If I have the nomenclature mixed up, please explain
it. I know it took me a long time to get polarity straight (no pun
intended) when it comes to welding.

Steve

I don't pretend to be an expert but I'll tellya what I've learned. In
double action the hammer or striker is operated by the trigger every
shot. Firing a revolver in single-action requires cocking the hammer
before each shot. With a single-action-only semiauto like most
1911's, the slide cocks the hammer after each shot so the trigger need
only release it but the trigger won't work if the hammer hasn't been
cocked either by slide action or by the operator.

The semis you describe are like Sig and PPK, double-action first round
and single-action on subsequent rounds. Big difference in pull length
and force between first round and subsequent rounds unless the piece
is carried cocked and locked. The problem with carrying cocked and
locked is that the operator must remember to unlock to fire. This is
not a trivial matter, particularly for gentle civilians like we who
don't train daily for firefights.

The KelTec 3AT and Ruger LCP are double-action-only (DAO) as are
Kahrs. Double-action is not as easy to shoot accurately as single
action because of the longer and heavier trigger pull required, but an
advantage for carry is that these can be carried safely without an
external safety. Single-action-onlys (SAO) like 1911's are typically
carried "cocked and locked" so the operator must remember to release
the safety. Single-doubles like Sig and PPK can be carried with
hammer down, round in the spout because a trigger pull will still
fire the first round. However, the significantly longer and harder
pull of first round vs subsequent rounds can result in erratic
placement of first round if the operator isn't well-practiced with
that particular piece.

Terminology gets more confusing with designs like Glock, Springfield
XD and Para Ordnance's LDA. Those are not true DAO because they won't
work until the slide is racked. However, no semiauto will fire until a
round has been chambered by racking the slide.

Glocks and XDs don't have external safeties that the operator might
forget to release under stress. The Para LDA's do because they're
1911 variants aside from their LDA action. I think the LDA action
makes the slide safety redundant and I like that a lot.

These designs from Para, Glock and Springfield (XD) typically have
trigger length-of-pull and heaviness somewhere between DAO and SA.
Glocks, Sigs and XD's are double-stackers so they have thick, bulky
grips. 1911's, Kahr's, PPK's, KelTec's, Ruger LCP's and the Para
LDA's are single-stackers with thinner grips that are easier to
conceal.

Lots of choices. Boots, gloves and pistols must fit the user. Sounds
like the KelTec 3AT fits you well.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:01:24 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

I'll stick with my .380.

Abd hope I don't need to use it...

I have seen shot placement some can achieve with the small .380's.
Perhaps you are one of them. I'm not one of them, and practice with
the small ones (3AT,LCP) would not be fun so I wouldn't do it.

I share your hope of never needing to use whatever we each might
choose. I'm quite confident that I never shall unless something
changes ...but catastrophic change can happen suddenly, e.g. Katrina.

When I qualified with the 3AT, I had to change my grip. Putting the finger
fully into the trigger guard with the joint on the trigger was impossible as
too much meat got in the way before the round discharged. I had to back my
trigger finger out so just the end joint was on the trigger, and that was a
bit awkward. Still did a 288/300 with it. Sure had to focus.

Steve

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:07:59 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:48:32 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Jim Chandler" wrote

The rise in gun sales is due to one thing and one thing only.
America's number one gun salesman....Barack Obama! The NRA had
nothing to do with it. Only a small percentage of those buying guns
and ammo since his election are NRA members.

Jim

I find it somewhat reassuring to see all the new people at the gun shows,
pawn shops and gun shops. Looks like a lot of "closet wingers" are coming
out. BTW, my sister-in-law just got her first gun, a new 9mm KAHR.
Lovely
piece. Both of them. I love the way the KAHR fits in my hand, but can
only
dream of that other piece.

Steve

If the Kahr is a polymer piece (CW9,etc), I tried real hard to like it
a coupla years ago and just couldn't get there though some folks do. I
found it unacceptably harsh to practice with, and I regard regular
practice as imperative. I also couldn't convince myself that I could
ever get to like the Kahr DAO trigger though I do like the concept.

I've never tried the all-metal, heavier and pricier K9 because I could
never find one to even handle, much less rent or borrow to fire.

The Springfield EMP is nice but very pricy and I don't want to carry
cocked and locked because I worry that I'll forget the damned safety
under stress. I know of one highly-trained Navy Seal that made that
error under combat condx, damn near bought it that day. I'm just a
senior civilian...

I recently stumbled upon a used-but-mint Para-Ordnance Carry 9 that I
could handle if not fire. It has their LDA (light double action)
trigger, is about the same size as a Kahr.

I'd been wanting to try one of these or a PDA for a while now but
nobody ever seemed to have one on hand. I figured I probably wouldn't
like their trigger any better than I did the Kahr.

WRONG! Put that in big red caps, boldface. I liked it a LOT. It's
basically a compact 1911 design in 9mmp but with the LDA action.

Good price, piece looked about unused, I didn't blink. That one
followed me home. I've now put maybe 100 rounds thru it. I am flat
amazed at how accurate that small pistol is in my hands. I say "in my
hands" because I don't care how accurate it might be in someone
else's hands unless they're defending me which ain't bloody likely. I
credit the pistol rather than my hands but whatever, it sure works fer
me.

I can very comfortably shoot a 100-round session with the little Carry
9 and we (it and I) put all or nearly all of those rounds in the max
score zone of a B-27 or LTR-II silhouette at 25 feet. It's very close
in size and weight to my PPK in .380, but it shoots a whole bunch
better for me and it uses the significantly more powerful 9mmp ammo.
Shot placement is more important than caliber, but good shot placement
with more powerful caliber is a good thing. A handgun is what a
soldier uses to fight his way to a rifle. I'm a senior civilian, not
a sojer.

I shoot a very slightly larger and heavier Colt Officer's 1911 in
.45ACP nearly as well, but I strongly prefer Para's LDA action for
infrequent carry with a round in the pipe.

YMMV, of course, merely reporting my experience.

I went today and had my reup for CCF notarized to send in. I am not sure if
I have a new pistol on the event horizon, but would like to find a 9 that I
am comfortable with. Will check out the Para Ordinance stuff. I currently
have a very small KelTec 3AT which I like, but just want something that
throws a larger bullet. Thank.s

Steve


http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/C...Model%20BM.htm

There are a number of these in my arms locker..and one on my CCW.
Which shows how much I love them..as everything else on my CCW starts
with a .45.....

Gunner

"Human nature is bad. Good is a human product*
A warped piece of wood must be steamed and forced
before it is made straight; a metal blade must be put to the whetstone
before it becomes sharp. Since the nature of people is bad, to become corrected
they must be taught by teachers and to be orderly they must acquire ritual
and moral principles."
—Sun Tzu
*

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 01:24:21 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

Glocks and XDs don't have external safeties that the operator might
forget to release under stress. The Para LDA's do because they're
1911 variants aside from their LDA action. I think the LDA action
makes the slide safety redundant and I like that a lot.

Im rather fond of the AMT DAO 45, carrying one daily now for about 15
yrs.

Its been gone through, correcting issues before I ever put it on.

Its a bitch..but a tough nasty bitch.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=125912512

Check pawn shops etc. $150-300

Gunner

"Human nature is bad. Good is a human product*
A warped piece of wood must be steamed and forced
before it is made straight; a metal blade must be put to the whetstone
before it becomes sharp. Since the nature of people is bad, to become corrected
they must be taught by teachers and to be orderly they must acquire ritual
and moral principles."
—Sun Tzu
*