Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.


Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.


Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

Ron,

When the wall street firms went belly up, the white collar workers were
handed pink slips and shown the door.

The battle to keep blue collar jobs should have been fought when all of the
outsourcing was done. Remember Ross Perot's prophesy of the "giant sucking
sound"?

What you are seeing these days is a result of that.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Dec 11, 6:46*pm, "Roger Shoaf" wrote:
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message

...

Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

Ron,

When the wall street firms went belly up, the white collar workers were
handed pink slips and shown the door.

The battle to keep blue collar jobs should have been fought when all of the
outsourcing was done. *Remember Ross Perot's prophesy of the "giant sucking
sound"?

What you are seeing these days is a result of that.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.




They still did not make any concessions. They still have their jobs.

Out sourcing and nafta
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
On Dec 11, 6:46 pm, "Roger Shoaf" wrote:
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message

...

Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

Ron,

When the wall street firms went belly up, the white collar workers were
handed pink slips and shown the door.

The battle to keep blue collar jobs should have been fought when all of
the
outsourcing was done. Remember Ross Perot's prophesy of the "giant sucking
sound"?

What you are seeing these days is a result of that.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube,
then
they come up with this striped stuff.




They still did not make any concessions. They still have their jobs.

They?

When you go into a Dodge dealership and look at one of those nice pickups,
look where it is assembled. Who made the alternator? (Jap) Who made the
speedometer? (Jap) The locks are made by an American company (Formerly
known as Briggs and Stratton. now Strattec.) at a factory in Mexico, this
list goes on, but all of those jobs were formerly filled by Americans and
were mostly Union Jobs.

Look at how many union steel workers no longer have mills to work in because
some overseas firm is making the steel cheaper.

I do not suggest that all union jobs have been lost, but a good percentage
of them have. After all they are not making AMC's any more, or Studebakers,
or Packard's or Oldsmobile's, or lots of other things. When the wholesale
slaughter of US industry is looked at a whole lot of good jobs have been
lost.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:59:02 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com
===============
Be very careful what you ask for because you just may get it.

Something the plutocratic ideologues who are so eager to cut
wages should consider is when wages are cut 50%, the income taxes
and social security contributions by those employees is also cut
by 50%. The employer's social security contribution is also cut
by 50%.

Many of these employees are also paying off mortgages, car loans,
credit card debt, student loans, college tuition, etc. which will
most likely not be possible with a 50% cut in wages and benefits.

If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that
build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good
idea for the people that pass our laws.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:59:02 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com
===============
Be very careful what you ask for because you just may get it.

Something the plutocratic ideologues who are so eager to cut
wages should consider is when wages are cut 50%, the income taxes
and social security contributions by those employees is also cut
by 50%. The employer's social security contribution is also cut
by 50%.

Many of these employees are also paying off mortgages, car loans,
credit card debt, student loans, college tuition, etc. which will
most likely not be possible with a 50% cut in wages and benefits.

If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that
build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good
idea for the people that pass our laws.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]


Right, and by that logic it would be good for everyone to have their wages
go down to a level on par with the lowest paid workers in the world. At
least that is what the businessmen would like to see happen. They would love
it if they could pay every worker in America the same wages a worker in
China gets. But then the things you mentioned would kick in and they would
find themselves in a place where neither the workers or the businesses would
like to be. Unfortunately, most business people are so stupid and short
sighted all they care about is the next quarter or two. This kind of
thinking is what cost us so many good paying jobs, which we are now seeing
the results of their loss. If we keep this up we'll have only a pittance of
high paying jobs and everyone else will be paid third world wages. Now won't
that be nice? The question is do we let the greedy fools do this to us? If
we do that would prove that it's the American people who are the biggest
fools, and losers of all?

Hawke

"Hawke" wrote in message
...

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:59:02 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com
===============
Be very careful what you ask for because you just may get it.

Something the plutocratic ideologues who are so eager to cut
wages should consider is when wages are cut 50%, the income taxes
and social security contributions by those employees is also cut
by 50%. The employer's social security contribution is also cut
by 50%.

Many of these employees are also paying off mortgages, car loans,
credit card debt, student loans, college tuition, etc. which will
most likely not be possible with a 50% cut in wages and benefits.

If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that
build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good
idea for the people that pass our laws.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]


Right, and by that logic it would be good for everyone to have their wages
go down to a level on par with the lowest paid workers in the world. At
least that is what the businessmen would like to see happen. They would
love
it if they could pay every worker in America the same wages a worker in
China gets. But then the things you mentioned would kick in and they would
find themselves in a place where neither the workers or the businesses
would
like to be. Unfortunately, most business people are so stupid and short
sighted all they care about is the next quarter or two. This kind of
thinking is what cost us so many good paying jobs, which we are now seeing
the results of their loss. If we keep this up we'll have only a pittance
of
high paying jobs and everyone else will be paid third world wages. Now
won't
that be nice? The question is do we let the greedy fools do this to us? If
we do that would prove that it's the American people who are the biggest
fools, and losers of all?

Hawke



Confiscate all companies and pay all workers a million dollars a year! Make
all imports illegal and pay all management nothing! The scum don't do
anything anyway, better yet...eliminate them!

"Buerste" wrote in
:

Confiscate all companies and pay all workers a million dollars a year!
Make all imports illegal and pay all management nothing! The scum
don't do anything anyway, better yet...eliminate them!


That IS what the Chicken seems to be saying...


--
I used to be an anarchist but had to give it up: _far_ too many rules.

"Eregon" Eregon@Saphira.ørg wrote in message
...
"Buerste" wrote in
:

Confiscate all companies and pay all workers a million dollars a year!
Make all imports illegal and pay all management nothing! The scum
don't do anything anyway, better yet...eliminate them!


That IS what the Chicken seems to be saying...


AND...he truly thinks that's the solution! But, that's what the pamphlet
says.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:58:19 -0600, F George McDuffee wrote:

If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that
build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good
idea for the people that pass our laws.

What kind of hurdles would the President have to leap if he decided
to reduce Executive Branch salaries and benefits by (say) 20%?
Could he do it by Executive Order?

Or what about Congress doing the same thing?

I suspect both would be difficult, but if enough public and media
pressure were brought to bear it might happen. In any case, the
effort would certainly carry a message to both Branches that their
decisions Have Real-World Consequences.

I'm a little surprised that the anger I keep hearing about
regarding the bailouts hasn't been directed in this direction
already.


Frank McKenney
--
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and
car keys to teenage boys." -- P. J. O'Rourke
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)

"Frnak McKenney" wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:58:19 -0600, F George McDuffee
wrote:

If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that
build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good
idea for the people that pass our laws.

What kind of hurdles would the President have to leap if he decided
to reduce Executive Branch salaries and benefits by (say) 20%?
Could he do it by Executive Order?

Or what about Congress doing the same thing?

I suspect both would be difficult, but if enough public and media
pressure were brought to bear it might happen. In any case, the
effort would certainly carry a message to both Branches that their
decisions Have Real-World Consequences.

I'm a little surprised that the anger I keep hearing about
regarding the bailouts hasn't been directed in this direction
already.


Frank McKenney

That would be cruel. How would the congressman's wife get that new Lexus
every year? How could Barney Frank afford obnoxious cologne and KY jelly?
How could the easterners afford their summer home in The Hamptons? How
could they all afford college and Tommy Hilfigger for their kids? How could
they afford those $3,000 "masseuses" to relax them so we get good
legislation?

It's cruel, I tell you.

"SteveB" toquervilla@zionvistas wrote:

That would be cruel. How would the congressman's wife get that new Lexus
every year? How could Barney Frank afford obnoxious cologne and KY jelly?
How could the easterners afford their summer home in The Hamptons? How
could they all afford college and Tommy Hilfigger for their kids? How could
they afford those $3,000 "masseuses" to relax them so we get good
legislation?

It's cruel, I tell you.


I would just limit their life time options in serving (themselves) in office. Many of our
legislators never held a real job. Toss everyone one of those out regardless of party.

Wes

SteveB wrote:

"Frnak McKenney" wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:58:19 -0600, F George McDuffee
wrote:

If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that
build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good
idea for the people that pass our laws.

What kind of hurdles would the President have to leap if he decided
to reduce Executive Branch salaries and benefits by (say) 20%?
Could he do it by Executive Order?

Or what about Congress doing the same thing?

I suspect both would be difficult, but if enough public and media
pressure were brought to bear it might happen. In any case, the
effort would certainly carry a message to both Branches that their
decisions Have Real-World Consequences.

I'm a little surprised that the anger I keep hearing about
regarding the bailouts hasn't been directed in this direction
already.


Frank McKenney

That would be cruel. How would the congressman's wife get that new Lexus
every year? How could Barney Frank afford obnoxious cologne and KY jelly?
How could the easterners afford their summer home in The Hamptons? How
could they all afford college and Tommy Hilfigger for their kids? How could
they afford those $3,000 "masseuses" to relax them so we get good
legislation?

It's cruel, I tell you.


How would Florida be infested with Snowbirds? Oh, wait. NEVER MIND!


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

Millwright Ron wrote:

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.



Just invest some of the pension funds your union controls in GM and bail them out your
self.

Wes

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 05:20:28 -0500, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

Millwright Ron wrote:

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Just invest some of the pension funds your union controls in GM and bail them out your
self.

Bwahahahahahaha! 2 points, Wes. But giving them what they deserve is
not politically correct.

--
It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness;
poverty and wealth have both failed.
-- Kin Hubbard

On Dec 11, 8:59*pm, Millwright Ron wrote:
Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com

Screw the bailout, congress should just pas a law that all the
autoworker union contracts are null and void, and its time to re-
negotiate.


Dave

On Dec 12, 6:09*am, wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:59*pm, Millwright Ron wrote:

Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com

Screw the bailout, congress should just pas a law that all the
autoworker union contracts are null and void, and its time to re-
negotiate.

Dave


You would only be happy if the U.S. workers made 3rd world wages!
Correct?

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

On Dec 12, 11:37*am, Millwright Ron wrote:
On Dec 12, 6:09*am, wrote:



On Dec 11, 8:59*pm, Millwright Ron wrote:

Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com

Screw the bailout, congress should just pas a law that all the
autoworker union contracts are null and void, and its time to re-
negotiate.

Dave

You would only be happy if the U.S. workers made 3rd world wages!
Correct?

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com

The unions should give way a little, before they are forced to give
back a lot.


Dave

On Dec 12, 10:28*am, wrote:
On Dec 12, 11:37*am, Millwright Ron wrote:





On Dec 12, 6:09*am, wrote:

On Dec 11, 8:59*pm, Millwright Ron wrote:

Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com

Screw the bailout, congress should just pas a law that all the
autoworker union contracts are null and void, and its time to re-
negotiate.

Dave

You would only be happy if the U.S. workers made 3rd world wages!
Correct?

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com

The unions should give way a little, before they are forced to give
back a lot.

Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



DETROIT: A day before the three Detroit automakers return to
Washington to again ask for a U.S. government bailout, the United
Automobile Workers union took its turn in promising cuts and
concessions as part of a concerted effort to win the support of
lawmakers.

The UAW president, Ron Gettelfinger, said the union would suspend its
jobs bank, which requires carmakers to keep paying laid-off employees,
and would consider changes to its labor contracts. The union has also
agreed, Gettelfinger said, to delay the payments that the automakers
must make to a new retiree health care fund called a Voluntary
Employee Beneficiary Association, or VEBA.

The announcements came as the Detroit chief executives prepared to
make a second plea for U.S. government assistance at a House hearing
on Thursday. The Senate holds a hearing on Friday. On Tuesday, the car
companies submitted plans detailing why they needed government-backed
loans and how they would use the money.

Together, the three Detroit companies are asking for $34 billion in
aid, a significant increase from the $25 billion request the
automakers made to Congress two weeks ago. The increase is based,
Ford's chief executive, Alan Mulally said, on the fact that Democratic
leaders told the companies to base their revised loan requests on
economic conditions.

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
On Dec 12, 6:09 am, wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:59 pm, Millwright Ron wrote:

Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com

Screw the bailout, congress should just pas a law that all the
autoworker union contracts are null and void, and its time to re-
negotiate.

Dave


You would only be happy if the U.S. workers made 3rd world wages!
Correct?

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


No, but something a bit more realist perhaps!

To quote your post,

"Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of
Detroit's unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It's a little
more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits
included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda's
or Toyota's (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of
$45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous
benefits."

It seems even to you that the American auto worker is over paid!
Greg

"Greg O" wrote:

To quote your post,

"Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of
Detroit's unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It's a little
more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits
included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda's
or Toyota's (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of
$45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous
benefits."

It seems even to you that the American auto worker is over paid!
Greg

Most blue collar American workers don't look at Detroit UAW in awe. They know that the
cars they need to get to work in cost more because of the pigs at the trough.

They know that wages they make at an automotive supplier are held hostage to what ever
union contract GM/Ford/Chrysler can extort.

They have seen their jobs go away by the predatory purchasing practices of Detroit Auto
management that is trying to stay alive with a 100 foot tape worm in their belly.

Expect no sympathy from flyover America. The elites on the coast are driving their
beemers and Mercedes so don't expect help from them.

FOAD, you earned it.

W

On Dec 11, 7:59*pm, Millwright Ron wrote:
Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com

All our operators are busy assisting other customers. Your call will
be answered in the order it was received. Thank you for your patronage.

Sorry to give you this dose of reality,

but unions are already busted.

And they got busted from the inside out.

"SteveB" toquervilla@zionvistas wrote in message
...
Sorry to give you this dose of reality,

but unions are already busted.

And they got busted from the inside out.




And it looks like they are going to take the automotive manufacturers down
with them.....

"JohnB" wrote:

And it looks like they are going to take the automotive manufacturers down
with them.....


Nah, it just will be in the southern states.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:34:10 -0500, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

"JohnB" wrote:

And it looks like they are going to take the automotive manufacturers down
with them.....


Nah, it just will be in the southern states.

No, the southern states all have _foreign_ car makers, not US car
makers, employing tens of thousands of their workers.

P.S: Aren't most of them not unionized?

--
It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness;
poverty and wealth have both failed.
-- Kin Hubbard

"JohnB" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" toquervilla@zionvistas wrote in message
...
Sorry to give you this dose of reality,

but unions are already busted.

And they got busted from the inside out.




And it looks like they are going to take the automotive manufacturers down
with them.....

Every good union member will walk in lock step over a cliff, directed by
their union officials, even though the officials are the last to take that
step, and no one ever knows if they do or not. Even if it means the death
of the golden goose. Part of something is better than part of nothing, but
then that's only my view. Lemme see .......... take a pay cut or go on
unemployment, then welfare.

I guess the 85% pay rate to laid off workers died a quiet death, and is
buried next to Jimmie Hoffa.

Wait, wait, I know the answer to this.

Steve

"JohnB" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" toquervilla@zionvistas wrote in message
...
Sorry to give you this dose of reality,

but unions are already busted.

And they got busted from the inside out.




And it looks like they are going to take the automotive manufacturers down
with them.....


That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are
losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the
companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people still
think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims.
Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the
workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's not
the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But
the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away
despite the facts that say otherwise. I think they would still blame unions
for things going wrong if they didn't exist.

Hawke

"Hawke" wrote in message
...
snip--------


That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are
losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the
companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people
still
think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims.
Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the
workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's
not
the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But
the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away
despite the facts that say otherwise. I think they would still blame
unions
for things going wrong if they didn't exist.

Hawke


Are you implying that unions have played no role in the decline of our way
of life in recent times? You think it's perfectly fine for people making
a decent salary to picket their place of employment, demanding yet more
money, when if they are successful you will pay more for their goods and
services? Think of workers at unionized grocery stores. If their
demands are met and they get yet more unearned money, who do you suppose is
going to pick up the tab? Seems to me, it's the customer. Screw
unions, and union members. These are the very people that are dragging is
further into the abyss.

Can I safely assume that you think a guy with no qualifications of any kind,
no education, possibly unable to sign his name, is worth more than $30/hour?
Where does it end? Everything for everybody, even those that haven't earned
it?

Where do you suppose the money comes from that pays these unworthy people
their unearned salaries?

I don't give a damn if it's only 10% of the cost of an automobile-----I
don't enjoy paying that amount over real value, let alone the money stolen
*legally by upper management through totally unreasonable salaries and
bonuses. Fire the entire lot of these *******s and let them grovel in the
real world, where they can't hold anyone hostage.

Harold

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:13:42 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


"JohnB" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" toquervilla@zionvistas wrote in message
...
Sorry to give you this dose of reality,

but unions are already busted.

And they got busted from the inside out.

And it looks like they are going to take the automotive manufacturers down
with them.....

That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are
losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the
companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people still
think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims.
Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the
workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's not
the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But
the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away
despite the facts that say otherwise.

==I think they would still blame unions
for things going wrong if they didn't exist.== {emphasis added}

Hawke
============
You are 101% right on this point.

It is correctly said that a company generally gets the union they
deserve, and if they don't deserve one, they won't get one.

FWIW -- it is well worthwhile reviewing the managerial
actions/policies that existed at the car companies prior to the
establishment of the unions to put things in context.

Many companies would be lost without their union as a reliable
excuse for failure and rationale for managerial inaction, and
would have to fall back on blaming the environmentalists, the tax
code or the schools for turning out unqualified workers.

While bad management relations with their unions are indeed a
significant symptom of organizational problems, they are exactly
that, symptoms and not causes. The huge majority of hourly
employees want to punch in, do their jobs in reasonable safety
and comfort, punch out and go home, periodically getting an
honest paycheck and have no interest in playing "grab-ass" with
management over work rules, seniority, or anything else.

Many years ago, a division of a Fortune 500 company that I worked
for bought a rust-belt company that produced OEM air brakes and
compressors, which had fallen on hard times, and we had some of
their executives/managers "parachute" in to tell us how to run
things. [Actually more like migrating seagulls -- they flew in
-- squawked a lot -- s**t on everything and made a big mess --
and flew out leaving someone else to clean up their mess].

They were against anything and everything that was not the way it
was done before, regardless of the fact that this did not work
well [was slow], that considerable progress had been made in
manufacturing techniques since the 1940s-50s when much of their
product line had been designed, and this was one of the major
reasons the company was sold out from under them.

Several times the excuse was given when a required processing
change was suggested "but the union won't let us," the problem
being we were a non-union shop.

As much as anything else this explained to me why their company
was sold. This got to be a standing joke at management meetings
where every proposal/suggestion was greeted with a chorus of "but
the union won't let us."

The group VP issued a memo forbidding its use, as it was
"antagonizing" the people that were there from the acquired
division to "help us."

I found out later that the executives/managers/supervisors from
the acquired rust-belt company had also received a stiff
memo/directive from the group VP instructing them to minimize
their contacts with the hourly employees at our location, and to
limit their "suggestions" to technical/production issues and
avoid advice on labor/management relations issues.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...


UNION BUSTING

Damned good idea.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.. .

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...


UNION BUSTING

Damned good idea.

Harold


But the Democrats are so beholden to unions that the unions will be
protected.

"Buerste" wrote in message
news

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.. .

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...


UNION BUSTING

Damned good idea.

Harold


But the Democrats are so beholden to unions that the unions will be
protected.


That is not good news.

Harold

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:54:25 -0500, "Buerste" wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. ..

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...


UNION BUSTING

Damned good idea.

Harold


But the Democrats are so beholden to unions that the unions will be
protected.

One of the largest unions in the US is the Service Workers Union,
IRRC..the union most government employees belong to. Liberal operated.
Which is why most government is overbudget, behind schedule and
incompetent.

The largest is the Teachers union, another Liberal operated
cluster****, which has resulted in several generations of kids unable to
read their diploma or balance a checkbook.

The third largest is the Trial Lawyers...whoops..not the third
largest..just the largest contributor to the Democrat Party...the same
people that have made the cost of doing business nearly impossible to
handle..and when coupled with Union #1.....

Unions in U.S. With More Than 100,000 Members (2002)

Union
Members
NEA - National Education Association 2,679,396
SEIU - Service Employees International Union 1,464,007
UFCW - United Food & Commercial Workers International Union
1,380,507
IBT - International Brotherhood of Teamsters 1,350,000
AFSCME - American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees
1,350,000
LIUNA - Laborers' International Union of North America 840,180
AFT - American Federation of Teachers 770,090
IBEW - International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers 700,548
IAM - International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers
673,095
UAW - United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of
America 638,722
CWA - Communications Workers of America 557,136
USWA - United Steelworkers of America 532,234
UBC - United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America 531,839
IUOE - International Union of Operating Engineers 390,388
NPMHU - National Postal Mailhandlers Union 388,480
UA - United Association of the Journeymen and Apprentices of the
Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada
325,914
NALC - National Association of Letter Carriers 294,315
APWU - American Postal Workers Union 292,901
PACE - Papter, Allied-Industrial, Chemical and Engineering Workers
International Union 274,464
IAFF - International Association of Fire Fighers 261,551
HERE - Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees International Union
249,151
UNITE - Union of Needletrades, Industrial and Textile Employees 209,876
AFGE - American Federation of Government Employees 200,600
AGVA - American Guild of Variety Artists 182,597
UAN - United American Nurses 152,000
OPEIU - Office and Professional Employees International Union 150,882
SMW - Sheet Metal Workers International Association 148,378
BSORIW - International Association of Bridge, Structural, Ornamental and
Reinforcing Iron Workers 130,928
IUPAT - International Union of Painters and Allied Trades 115,511
BCTGM - Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers
International Union 114,618
TWU - Transportation Workers Union of America 110,000
AACSE - American Association of Classified School Employees 109,188
IATSE - International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Moving
Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts of the United States and
Canada 104,102
AFM - American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada
102,000
NRLCA - National Rural Letter Carriers' Association 101,810
BAC - International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craftworkers
101,499
TCU - Transportation Communications International Union 101,228
UMWA - United Mineworkers of America


"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...

UNION BUSTING

Damned good idea.

Harold


And long overdue! If they had busted the unions years ago,
Shillright couldn't afford a computer.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

On Dec 13, 6:39*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:



"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...

UNION BUSTING

Damned good idea.

Harold

* *And long overdue! *If they had busted the unions years ago,
Shillright couldn't afford a computer.

--http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account:http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm

There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.



Terrell

How is the tv repairman? I haven't seen much of your drivel lately.


If you are tired of that nasty taste in your mouth...Maybe you should
change jobs.

When I worked for GM in the 60's, the union had 3 medical packages.
Zero deduct and 100% pay. So a hangnail or a baby was no cost to the
patent or family.

The wage was unbelievable. I got in 2 1/2 months what my job provided
to me for the next year. I hated to leave that 1 time part time job.

Martin


Millwright Ron wrote:
Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About

Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions?
Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White-
collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same
when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand.

Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and
this
crazy thing called "health care.


Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com