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Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About
Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com |
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"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com Ron, When the wall street firms went belly up, the white collar workers were handed pink slips and shown the door. The battle to keep blue collar jobs should have been fought when all of the outsourcing was done. Remember Ross Perot's prophesy of the "giant sucking sound"? What you are seeing these days is a result of that. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. |
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On Dec 11, 6:46*pm, "Roger Shoaf" wrote:
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com Ron, When the wall street firms went belly up, the white collar workers were handed pink slips and shown the door. The battle to keep blue collar jobs should have been fought when all of the outsourcing was done. *Remember Ross Perot's prophesy of the "giant sucking sound"? What you are seeing these days is a result of that. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. They still did not make any concessions. They still have their jobs. Out sourcing and nafta Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com |
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:59:02 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote: Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com =============== Be very careful what you ask for because you just may get it. Something the plutocratic ideologues who are so eager to cut wages should consider is when wages are cut 50%, the income taxes and social security contributions by those employees is also cut by 50%. The employer's social security contribution is also cut by 50%. Many of these employees are also paying off mortgages, car loans, credit card debt, student loans, college tuition, etc. which will most likely not be possible with a 50% cut in wages and benefits. If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good idea for the people that pass our laws. Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end? Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625). |
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"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... On Dec 11, 6:46 pm, "Roger Shoaf" wrote: "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com Ron, When the wall street firms went belly up, the white collar workers were handed pink slips and shown the door. The battle to keep blue collar jobs should have been fought when all of the outsourcing was done. Remember Ross Perot's prophesy of the "giant sucking sound"? What you are seeing these days is a result of that. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. They still did not make any concessions. They still have their jobs. They? When you go into a Dodge dealership and look at one of those nice pickups, look where it is assembled. Who made the alternator? (Jap) Who made the speedometer? (Jap) The locks are made by an American company (Formerly known as Briggs and Stratton. now Strattec.) at a factory in Mexico, this list goes on, but all of those jobs were formerly filled by Americans and were mostly Union Jobs. Look at how many union steel workers no longer have mills to work in because some overseas firm is making the steel cheaper. I do not suggest that all union jobs have been lost, but a good percentage of them have. After all they are not making AMC's any more, or Studebakers, or Packard's or Oldsmobile's, or lots of other things. When the wholesale slaughter of US industry is looked at a whole lot of good jobs have been lost. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. |
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Millwright Ron wrote:
Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Just invest some of the pension funds your union controls in GM and bail them out your self. Wes |
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On Dec 11, 8:59*pm, Millwright Ron wrote:
Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com Screw the bailout, congress should just pas a law that all the autoworker union contracts are null and void, and its time to re- negotiate. Dave |
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On Dec 12, 6:09*am, wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:59*pm, Millwright Ron wrote: Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com Screw the bailout, congress should just pas a law that all the autoworker union contracts are null and void, and its time to re- negotiate. Dave You would only be happy if the U.S. workers made 3rd world wages! Correct? Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com |
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On Dec 12, 11:37*am, Millwright Ron wrote:
On Dec 12, 6:09*am, wrote: On Dec 11, 8:59*pm, Millwright Ron wrote: Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com Screw the bailout, congress should just pas a law that all the autoworker union contracts are null and void, and its time to re- negotiate. Dave You would only be happy if the U.S. workers made 3rd world wages! Correct? Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com The unions should give way a little, before they are forced to give back a lot. Dave |
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On Dec 11, 7:59*pm, Millwright Ron wrote:
Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com All our operators are busy assisting other customers. Your call will be answered in the order it was received. Thank you for your patronage. |
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"SteveB" toquervilla@zionvistas wrote in message ... Sorry to give you this dose of reality, but unions are already busted. And they got busted from the inside out. And it looks like they are going to take the automotive manufacturers down with them..... |
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On Dec 12, 10:28*am, wrote:
On Dec 12, 11:37*am, Millwright Ron wrote: On Dec 12, 6:09*am, wrote: On Dec 11, 8:59*pm, Millwright Ron wrote: Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com Screw the bailout, congress should just pas a law that all the autoworker union contracts are null and void, and its time to re- negotiate. Dave You would only be happy if the U.S. workers made 3rd world wages! Correct? Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com The unions should give way a little, before they are forced to give back a lot. Dave- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - DETROIT: A day before the three Detroit automakers return to Washington to again ask for a U.S. government bailout, the United Automobile Workers union took its turn in promising cuts and concessions as part of a concerted effort to win the support of lawmakers. The UAW president, Ron Gettelfinger, said the union would suspend its jobs bank, which requires carmakers to keep paying laid-off employees, and would consider changes to its labor contracts. The union has also agreed, Gettelfinger said, to delay the payments that the automakers must make to a new retiree health care fund called a Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association, or VEBA. The announcements came as the Detroit chief executives prepared to make a second plea for U.S. government assistance at a House hearing on Thursday. The Senate holds a hearing on Friday. On Tuesday, the car companies submitted plans detailing why they needed government-backed loans and how they would use the money. Together, the three Detroit companies are asking for $34 billion in aid, a significant increase from the $25 billion request the automakers made to Congress two weeks ago. The increase is based, Ford's chief executive, Alan Mulally said, on the fact that Democratic leaders told the companies to base their revised loan requests on economic conditions. Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com |
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Sorry to give you this dose of reality,
but unions are already busted. And they got busted from the inside out. |
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"JohnB" wrote:
And it looks like they are going to take the automotive manufacturers down with them..... Nah, it just will be in the southern states. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
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"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... On Dec 12, 6:09 am, wrote: On Dec 11, 8:59 pm, Millwright Ron wrote: Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com Screw the bailout, congress should just pas a law that all the autoworker union contracts are null and void, and its time to re- negotiate. Dave You would only be happy if the U.S. workers made 3rd world wages! Correct? Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com No, but something a bit more realist perhaps! To quote your post, "Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit's unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It's a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda's or Toyota's (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits." It seems even to you that the American auto worker is over paid! Greg |
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"Greg O" wrote:
To quote your post, "Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit's unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It's a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda's or Toyota's (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits." It seems even to you that the American auto worker is over paid! Greg Most blue collar American workers don't look at Detroit UAW in awe. They know that the cars they need to get to work in cost more because of the pigs at the trough. They know that wages they make at an automotive supplier are held hostage to what ever union contract GM/Ford/Chrysler can extort. They have seen their jobs go away by the predatory purchasing practices of Detroit Auto management that is trying to stay alive with a 100 foot tape worm in their belly. Expect no sympathy from flyover America. The elites on the coast are driving their beemers and Mercedes so don't expect help from them. FOAD, you earned it. W |
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"JohnB" wrote in message ... "SteveB" toquervilla@zionvistas wrote in message ... Sorry to give you this dose of reality, but unions are already busted. And they got busted from the inside out. And it looks like they are going to take the automotive manufacturers down with them..... Every good union member will walk in lock step over a cliff, directed by their union officials, even though the officials are the last to take that step, and no one ever knows if they do or not. Even if it means the death of the golden goose. Part of something is better than part of nothing, but then that's only my view. Lemme see .......... take a pay cut or go on unemployment, then welfare. I guess the 85% pay rate to laid off workers died a quiet death, and is buried next to Jimmie Hoffa. Wait, wait, I know the answer to this. Steve |
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"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:59:02 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron wrote: Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com =============== Be very careful what you ask for because you just may get it. Something the plutocratic ideologues who are so eager to cut wages should consider is when wages are cut 50%, the income taxes and social security contributions by those employees is also cut by 50%. The employer's social security contribution is also cut by 50%. Many of these employees are also paying off mortgages, car loans, credit card debt, student loans, college tuition, etc. which will most likely not be possible with a 50% cut in wages and benefits. If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good idea for the people that pass our laws. Unka' George [George McDuffee] Right, and by that logic it would be good for everyone to have their wages go down to a level on par with the lowest paid workers in the world. At least that is what the businessmen would like to see happen. They would love it if they could pay every worker in America the same wages a worker in China gets. But then the things you mentioned would kick in and they would find themselves in a place where neither the workers or the businesses would like to be. Unfortunately, most business people are so stupid and short sighted all they care about is the next quarter or two. This kind of thinking is what cost us so many good paying jobs, which we are now seeing the results of their loss. If we keep this up we'll have only a pittance of high paying jobs and everyone else will be paid third world wages. Now won't that be nice? The question is do we let the greedy fools do this to us? If we do that would prove that it's the American people who are the biggest fools, and losers of all? Hawke |
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"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... UNION BUSTING Damned good idea. Harold |
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"Hawke" wrote in message ... "F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:59:02 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron wrote: Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com =============== Be very careful what you ask for because you just may get it. Something the plutocratic ideologues who are so eager to cut wages should consider is when wages are cut 50%, the income taxes and social security contributions by those employees is also cut by 50%. The employer's social security contribution is also cut by 50%. Many of these employees are also paying off mortgages, car loans, credit card debt, student loans, college tuition, etc. which will most likely not be possible with a 50% cut in wages and benefits. If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good idea for the people that pass our laws. Unka' George [George McDuffee] Right, and by that logic it would be good for everyone to have their wages go down to a level on par with the lowest paid workers in the world. At least that is what the businessmen would like to see happen. They would love it if they could pay every worker in America the same wages a worker in China gets. But then the things you mentioned would kick in and they would find themselves in a place where neither the workers or the businesses would like to be. Unfortunately, most business people are so stupid and short sighted all they care about is the next quarter or two. This kind of thinking is what cost us so many good paying jobs, which we are now seeing the results of their loss. If we keep this up we'll have only a pittance of high paying jobs and everyone else will be paid third world wages. Now won't that be nice? The question is do we let the greedy fools do this to us? If we do that would prove that it's the American people who are the biggest fools, and losers of all? Hawke Confiscate all companies and pay all workers a million dollars a year! Make all imports illegal and pay all management nothing! The scum don't do anything anyway, better yet...eliminate them! |
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"Buerste" wrote in
: Confiscate all companies and pay all workers a million dollars a year! Make all imports illegal and pay all management nothing! The scum don't do anything anyway, better yet...eliminate them! That IS what the Chicken seems to be saying... -- I used to be an anarchist but had to give it up: _far_ too many rules. |
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"Eregon" Eregon@Saphira.ørg wrote in message ... "Buerste" wrote in : Confiscate all companies and pay all workers a million dollars a year! Make all imports illegal and pay all management nothing! The scum don't do anything anyway, better yet...eliminate them! That IS what the Chicken seems to be saying... AND...he truly thinks that's the solution! But, that's what the pamphlet says. |
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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message .. . "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... UNION BUSTING Damned good idea. Harold But the Democrats are so beholden to unions that the unions will be protected. |
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"Buerste" wrote in message ... "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message .. . "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... UNION BUSTING Damned good idea. Harold But the Democrats are so beholden to unions that the unions will be protected. That is not good news. Harold |
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:58:19 -0600, F George McDuffee wrote:
If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good idea for the people that pass our laws. What kind of hurdles would the President have to leap if he decided to reduce Executive Branch salaries and benefits by (say) 20%? Could he do it by Executive Order? Or what about Congress doing the same thing? I suspect both would be difficult, but if enough public and media pressure were brought to bear it might happen. In any case, the effort would certainly carry a message to both Branches that their decisions Have Real-World Consequences. I'm a little surprised that the anger I keep hearing about regarding the bailouts hasn't been directed in this direction already. Frank McKenney -- "Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." -- P. J. O'Rourke -- Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887 Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all) |
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Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... UNION BUSTING Damned good idea. Harold And long overdue! If they had busted the unions years ago, Shillright couldn't afford a computer. -- http://improve-usenet.org/index.html aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white listed, or I will not see your messages. If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm There are two kinds of people on this earth: The crazy, and the insane. The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy. |
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"Frnak McKenney" wrote in message m... On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:58:19 -0600, F George McDuffee wrote: If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good idea for the people that pass our laws. What kind of hurdles would the President have to leap if he decided to reduce Executive Branch salaries and benefits by (say) 20%? Could he do it by Executive Order? Or what about Congress doing the same thing? I suspect both would be difficult, but if enough public and media pressure were brought to bear it might happen. In any case, the effort would certainly carry a message to both Branches that their decisions Have Real-World Consequences. I'm a little surprised that the anger I keep hearing about regarding the bailouts hasn't been directed in this direction already. Frank McKenney That would be cruel. How would the congressman's wife get that new Lexus every year? How could Barney Frank afford obnoxious cologne and KY jelly? How could the easterners afford their summer home in The Hamptons? How could they all afford college and Tommy Hilfigger for their kids? How could they afford those $3,000 "masseuses" to relax them so we get good legislation? It's cruel, I tell you. |
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On Dec 13, 6:39*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... UNION BUSTING Damned good idea. Harold * *And long overdue! *If they had busted the unions years ago, Shillright couldn't afford a computer. --http://improve-usenet.org/index.html aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white listed, or I will not see your messages. If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account:http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm There are two kinds of people on this earth: The crazy, and the insane. The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy. Terrell How is the tv repairman? I haven't seen much of your drivel lately. If you are tired of that nasty taste in your mouth...Maybe you should change jobs. |
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"SteveB" toquervilla@zionvistas wrote:
That would be cruel. How would the congressman's wife get that new Lexus every year? How could Barney Frank afford obnoxious cologne and KY jelly? How could the easterners afford their summer home in The Hamptons? How could they all afford college and Tommy Hilfigger for their kids? How could they afford those $3,000 "masseuses" to relax them so we get good legislation? It's cruel, I tell you. I would just limit their life time options in serving (themselves) in office. Many of our legislators never held a real job. Toss everyone one of those out regardless of party. Wes |
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SteveB wrote: "Frnak McKenney" wrote in message m... On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:58:19 -0600, F George McDuffee wrote: If wage/benefit reduction is a good idea for the people that build our cars, a wage/benefit reduction should also be a good idea for the people that pass our laws. What kind of hurdles would the President have to leap if he decided to reduce Executive Branch salaries and benefits by (say) 20%? Could he do it by Executive Order? Or what about Congress doing the same thing? I suspect both would be difficult, but if enough public and media pressure were brought to bear it might happen. In any case, the effort would certainly carry a message to both Branches that their decisions Have Real-World Consequences. I'm a little surprised that the anger I keep hearing about regarding the bailouts hasn't been directed in this direction already. Frank McKenney That would be cruel. How would the congressman's wife get that new Lexus every year? How could Barney Frank afford obnoxious cologne and KY jelly? How could the easterners afford their summer home in The Hamptons? How could they all afford college and Tommy Hilfigger for their kids? How could they afford those $3,000 "masseuses" to relax them so we get good legislation? It's cruel, I tell you. How would Florida be infested with Snowbirds? Oh, wait. NEVER MIND! -- http://improve-usenet.org/index.html aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white listed, or I will not see your messages. If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm There are two kinds of people on this earth: The crazy, and the insane. The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy. |
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When I worked for GM in the 60's, the union had 3 medical packages.
Zero deduct and 100% pay. So a hangnail or a baby was no cost to the patent or family. The wage was unbelievable. I got in 2 1/2 months what my job provided to me for the next year. I hated to leave that 1 time part time job. Martin Millwright Ron wrote: Republican Senator Admits Opposition to Auto Bill is All About Why were Wall Street workers not asked for concessions? Autoworkers stepped up to the plate to save the car industry. White- collar workers, on the other hand, weren't expected to do the same when financial firms went to Congress with hat in hand. Its all those damn workers fault for trying to get pay raises and this crazy thing called "health care. Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com |
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"JohnB" wrote in message ... "SteveB" toquervilla@zionvistas wrote in message ... Sorry to give you this dose of reality, but unions are already busted. And they got busted from the inside out. And it looks like they are going to take the automotive manufacturers down with them..... That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people still think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims. Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's not the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away despite the facts that say otherwise. I think they would still blame unions for things going wrong if they didn't exist. Hawke |
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"Hawke" wrote in message ... snip-------- That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people still think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims. Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's not the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away despite the facts that say otherwise. I think they would still blame unions for things going wrong if they didn't exist. Hawke Are you implying that unions have played no role in the decline of our way of life in recent times? You think it's perfectly fine for people making a decent salary to picket their place of employment, demanding yet more money, when if they are successful you will pay more for their goods and services? Think of workers at unionized grocery stores. If their demands are met and they get yet more unearned money, who do you suppose is going to pick up the tab? Seems to me, it's the customer. Screw unions, and union members. These are the very people that are dragging is further into the abyss. Can I safely assume that you think a guy with no qualifications of any kind, no education, possibly unable to sign his name, is worth more than $30/hour? Where does it end? Everything for everybody, even those that haven't earned it? Where do you suppose the money comes from that pays these unworthy people their unearned salaries? I don't give a damn if it's only 10% of the cost of an automobile-----I don't enjoy paying that amount over real value, let alone the money stolen *legally by upper management through totally unreasonable salaries and bonuses. Fire the entire lot of these *******s and let them grovel in the real world, where they can't hold anyone hostage. Harold |
OT UNION BUSTING...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message .. . "Hawke" wrote in message ... snip-------- That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people still think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims. Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's not the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away despite the facts that say otherwise. I think they would still blame unions for things going wrong if they didn't exist. Hawke Are you implying that unions have played no role in the decline of our way of life in recent times? You think it's perfectly fine for people making a decent salary to picket their place of employment, demanding yet more money, when if they are successful you will pay more for their goods and services? Think of workers at unionized grocery stores. If their demands are met and they get yet more unearned money, who do you suppose is going to pick up the tab? Seems to me, it's the customer. Screw unions, and union members. These are the very people that are dragging is further into the abyss. Can I safely assume that you think a guy with no qualifications of any kind, no education, possibly unable to sign his name, is worth more than $30/hour? Where does it end? Everything for everybody, even those that haven't earned it? Where do you suppose the money comes from that pays these unworthy people their unearned salaries? I don't give a damn if it's only 10% of the cost of an automobile-----I don't enjoy paying that amount over real value, let alone the money stolen *legally by upper management through totally unreasonable salaries and bonuses. Fire the entire lot of these *******s and let them grovel in the real world, where they can't hold anyone hostage. Harold But, the basic laws of supply and demand are so inconvenient to some. Unfortunately those laws ALWAYS apply sooner or (too) later. Maybe Americans will be forced to buy a "Big-3". |
OT UNION BUSTING...
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:26:26 -0500, "Buerste" wrote:
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message . .. "Hawke" wrote in message ... snip-------- That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people still think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims. Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's not the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away despite the facts that say otherwise. I think they would still blame unions for things going wrong if they didn't exist. Hawke Are you implying that unions have played no role in the decline of our way of life in recent times? You think it's perfectly fine for people making a decent salary to picket their place of employment, demanding yet more money, when if they are successful you will pay more for their goods and services? Think of workers at unionized grocery stores. If their demands are met and they get yet more unearned money, who do you suppose is going to pick up the tab? Seems to me, it's the customer. Screw unions, and union members. These are the very people that are dragging is further into the abyss. Can I safely assume that you think a guy with no qualifications of any kind, no education, possibly unable to sign his name, is worth more than $30/hour? Where does it end? Everything for everybody, even those that haven't earned it? Where do you suppose the money comes from that pays these unworthy people their unearned salaries? I don't give a damn if it's only 10% of the cost of an automobile-----I don't enjoy paying that amount over real value, let alone the money stolen *legally by upper management through totally unreasonable salaries and bonuses. Fire the entire lot of these *******s and let them grovel in the real world, where they can't hold anyone hostage. Harold But, the basic laws of supply and demand are so inconvenient to some. Unfortunately those laws ALWAYS apply sooner or (too) later. Maybe Americans will be forced to buy a "Big-3". Whoever says labour is only 10% of the cost of a vehicle has NOT done their homework. What portion of the cost of steel is labour? Go back one step farther - what percentage of the cost of coal/coke and iron ore is labour? What portion of the cost of tooling is labour? How about the cost of building/maintaining the plant? I MIGHT believe the "direct" cost of UAW worker's wages/benefits at the big three themselves MIGHT be as low as 10% at the plant level - but the plant does not start with iron ore, bauxite, and coal to build a car. (unless, perhaps, you are Ford Brazil) |
OT UNION BUSTING...
wrote in message ... On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:26:26 -0500, "Buerste" wrote: "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Hawke" wrote in message ... snip-------- That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people still think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims. Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's not the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away despite the facts that say otherwise. I think they would still blame unions for things going wrong if they didn't exist. Hawke Are you implying that unions have played no role in the decline of our way of life in recent times? You think it's perfectly fine for people making a decent salary to picket their place of employment, demanding yet more money, when if they are successful you will pay more for their goods and services? Think of workers at unionized grocery stores. If their demands are met and they get yet more unearned money, who do you suppose is going to pick up the tab? Seems to me, it's the customer. Screw unions, and union members. These are the very people that are dragging is further into the abyss. Can I safely assume that you think a guy with no qualifications of any kind, no education, possibly unable to sign his name, is worth more than $30/hour? Where does it end? Everything for everybody, even those that haven't earned it? Where do you suppose the money comes from that pays these unworthy people their unearned salaries? I don't give a damn if it's only 10% of the cost of an automobile-----I don't enjoy paying that amount over real value, let alone the money stolen *legally by upper management through totally unreasonable salaries and bonuses. Fire the entire lot of these *******s and let them grovel in the real world, where they can't hold anyone hostage. Harold But, the basic laws of supply and demand are so inconvenient to some. Unfortunately those laws ALWAYS apply sooner or (too) later. Maybe Americans will be forced to buy a "Big-3". Whoever says labour is only 10% of the cost of a vehicle has NOT done their homework. What portion of the cost of steel is labour? Go back one step farther - what percentage of the cost of coal/coke and iron ore is labour? What portion of the cost of tooling is labour? How about the cost of building/maintaining the plant? I MIGHT believe the "direct" cost of UAW worker's wages/benefits at the big three themselves MIGHT be as low as 10% at the plant level - but the plant does not start with iron ore, bauxite, and coal to build a car. (unless, perhaps, you are Ford Brazil) Yes, it's around 10% direct labor. And it's true that total labor becomes a larger part of the total as you move back along the supply chain. Ford Motor company used to smelt its own ore -- ore boats pulled right up to the Rouge iron smelter on Ford's property -- and total labor then was most of the cost of a car. But once the parts are farmed out and you're looking at three tiers (sometimes four) of supply in the chain, how much do you blame Ford or GM for what the shops and plants are paying their workers? This isn't a simple question. I've spent hundreds of hours on it, up until six or seven years ago. This is the basic problem we encounter when we compare our manufacturing costs with those of China, and you run into that same issue of labor costs being added to each stage of supply. They're called "embedded costs." If all of the intermediate products, such as steel strip, glass, and so on were traded freely on the world market, those costs would be competitive and comparable right up to the stage of final assembly, at which point US manufacturing costs would be so close to those of China that our savings in shipping would actually make our products cheaper. But those products are not actually traded that way, partly because there would be trans-Pacific shipping costs at every step, and it is prohibitive on low-value products, such as pig iron, for example. However, those labor costs in Ford's supply chain are not Ford's labor costs, they're the vendors' costs. And most of them are not based on UAW labor. So who do you blame now? -- Ed Huntress |
OT UNION BUSTING...
That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people still think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims. Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's not the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away despite the facts that say otherwise. I think they would still blame unions for things going wrong if they didn't exist. Hawke Are you implying that unions have played no role in the decline of our way of life in recent times? You think it's perfectly fine for people making a decent salary to picket their place of employment, demanding yet more money, when if they are successful you will pay more for their goods and services? Think of workers at unionized grocery stores. If their demands are met and they get yet more unearned money, who do you suppose is going to pick up the tab? Seems to me, it's the customer. Screw unions, and union members. These are the very people that are dragging is further into the abyss. Can I safely assume that you think a guy with no qualifications of any kind, no education, possibly unable to sign his name, is worth more than $30/hour? Where does it end? Everything for everybody, even those that haven't earned it? Where do you suppose the money comes from that pays these unworthy people their unearned salaries? I don't give a damn if it's only 10% of the cost of an automobile-----I don't enjoy paying that amount over real value, let alone the money stolen *legally by upper management through totally unreasonable salaries and bonuses. Fire the entire lot of these *******s and let them grovel in the real world, where they can't hold anyone hostage. Harold But, the basic laws of supply and demand are so inconvenient to some. Unfortunately those laws ALWAYS apply sooner or (too) later. Maybe Americans will be forced to buy a "Big-3". That might not be such a bad idea. That's what they do in Japan and it seems to have worked for them pretty damn well. The Japanese make it so difficult for the Japanese people to buy American cars that hardly any of them do, all the while selling their cars here like there is no tomorrow. Look at them and look at us. Their national balance sheet is far better than ours and their standard of living isn't bad either. There is no supply and demand in Japan for American autos. Why don't we do the same here? The truth is free market ideas you and others continue to believe in are out of date. There is no free market when all the nations that build cars support those industries with government money. It's time we catch up to the rest of the world. Why do we have to keep doing things the way we always have when it's no longer working? None of the other countries follow our example and they are profitable. So which country is doing things wrong? Look at the facts and you see right off the bat it's us. We need to change. We're getting our asses whipped doing things like we always did. That is what did in the Big 3 not the workers. Hawke |
OT UNION BUSTING...
That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people still think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims. Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's not the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away despite the facts that say otherwise. I think they would still blame unions for things going wrong if they didn't exist. Hawke Are you implying that unions have played no role in the decline of our way of life in recent times? You think it's perfectly fine for people making a decent salary to picket their place of employment, demanding yet more money, when if they are successful you will pay more for their goods and services? Think of workers at unionized grocery stores. If their demands are met and they get yet more unearned money, who do you suppose is going to pick up the tab? Seems to me, it's the customer. Screw unions, and union members. These are the very people that are dragging is further into the abyss. What unions have done is to improve the way of life for Americans. They have done so for 60 years, at least. The truth is without unions workers have no chance at bargaining with corporations for anything. What they provide is equality at the playing table. In the past the companies held all the cards and you took what they gave or you took nothing at all. The unions only made very profitable companies pay a more fair share of the profits to the workers. The unions want the companies to be successful so they can have a piece of the pie that is fair. They don't want businesses to fail. That would not do them any good. But any good businessman bargains for as much as he can get. Why shouldn't workers do the same? Can I safely assume that you think a guy with no qualifications of any kind, no education, possibly unable to sign his name, is worth more than $30/hour? Where does it end? Everything for everybody, even those that haven't earned it? Who decides what someone should earn. Is it fair that Katie Couric gets paid 15 million for reading the news for a half hour a day? It seems like you have a problem with over paying some people but not others. Workers need a fair slice of the profits no more and no less. If there aren't any everyone loses and the recent troubles of the auto makers are from the bad decisions of the managers. They should have copied the Japanese instead of building SUVs. Management mistakes cost workers not the other way around. Where do you suppose the money comes from that pays these unworthy people their unearned salaries? The same place the money for managers and stockholders comes from. It all about who gets how much. Historically it has been very unevenly distributed with workers taking only a pittance while the shareholders and managers walk off with the lion's share of the profit. That was until the workers started bargaining collectively. I don't give a damn if it's only 10% of the cost of an automobile-----I don't enjoy paying that amount over real value, let alone the money stolen *legally by upper management through totally unreasonable salaries and bonuses. Fire the entire lot of these *******s and let them grovel in the real world, where they can't hold anyone hostage. Typical emotional response. But the fact is everyone will pay a higher price if the companies don't stay in business and eventually return to profitability. You mistakenly think that the pay for workers is making the cars price uncompetitive. It's not and in two or three years the extra costs that the car companies are saddled with will be gone and they will be more competitive. They have cut half their work force. They are much smaller companies. If they simply keep going and start making cars people want, and if the economy turns around, and if credit is restored, they will do fine. That is a lot of ifs but credit will be restored and the economy will come back so all the companies have to do is make better cars. I think they can do it. They made the best cars for years. If the managers are worth a darn they will again. But in the meantime they have to stay afloat and if that costs us some money it'll be cheaper in the long run than letting them fail. Hawke |
OT UNION BUSTING...
"Hawke" wrote in message ... That's typical. Even when everyone knows that the reason the "Big 3" are losing money is because of the horrible way the management has run the companies and the lousy decisions they made over the years some people still think it's the fault of the people who work for them. Blame the victims. Even today I heard right winger Bill Krystol say on Fox News that the workers only account for ten percent of auto costs. So, the fact is it's not the workers who brought down the auto companies it's their management. But the knee jerk reaction to blame unions by right wingers never goes away despite the facts that say otherwise. I think they would still blame unions for things going wrong if they didn't exist. Hawke Are you implying that unions have played no role in the decline of our way of life in recent times? You think it's perfectly fine for people making a decent salary to picket their place of employment, demanding yet more money, when if they are successful you will pay more for their goods and services? Think of workers at unionized grocery stores. If their demands are met and they get yet more unearned money, who do you suppose is going to pick up the tab? Seems to me, it's the customer. Screw unions, and union members. These are the very people that are dragging is further into the abyss. Can I safely assume that you think a guy with no qualifications of any kind, no education, possibly unable to sign his name, is worth more than $30/hour? Where does it end? Everything for everybody, even those that haven't earned it? Where do you suppose the money comes from that pays these unworthy people their unearned salaries? I don't give a damn if it's only 10% of the cost of an automobile-----I don't enjoy paying that amount over real value, let alone the money stolen *legally by upper management through totally unreasonable salaries and bonuses. Fire the entire lot of these *******s and let them grovel in the real world, where they can't hold anyone hostage. Harold But, the basic laws of supply and demand are so inconvenient to some. Unfortunately those laws ALWAYS apply sooner or (too) later. Maybe Americans will be forced to buy a "Big-3". That might not be such a bad idea. That's what they do in Japan and it seems to have worked for them pretty damn well. The Japanese make it so difficult for the Japanese people to buy American cars that hardly any of them do, all the while selling their cars here like there is no tomorrow. Look at them and look at us. Their national balance sheet is far better than ours and their standard of living isn't bad either. There is no supply and demand in Japan for American autos. Why don't we do the same here? The truth is free market ideas you and others continue to believe in are out of date. There is no free market when all the nations that build cars support those industries with government money. It's time we catch up to the rest of the world. Why do we have to keep doing things the way we always have when it's no longer working? None of the other countries follow our example and they are profitable. So which country is doing things wrong? Look at the facts and you see right off the bat it's us. We need to change. We're getting our asses whipped doing things like we always did. That is what did in the Big 3 not the workers. Hawke It's not what the workers earn, it's what they make. The big-3 make crap, blame everybody from the consumer for blindly buying crap to the CEOs for lack of leadership, vision and strategy. They are building $30,000 machines that last for maybe 1,700 hrs. WTF!!! |
OT UNION BUSTING...
"Hawke" wrote in message ... snip---- Workers need a fair slice of the profits no more and no less. WRONG! Workers "need" no such thing. Why are they paid hourly if that be the case? They sell their time to their employer, and are (in the case of auto workers) over compensated. They have nothing to lose if the company goes bust----except for a job that pays beyond its worth, so I see no reason why they should "share" (or extort) profits from those that have a vested interest in the operation. That makes no sense, no more than you expecting to share in the profits of your local TV station because you watch their productions. Union workers need to lose the notion that they are "entitled" to share in profits. Show me the guy that is willing to give back some of the money that has been paid by unreasonable demands when a company is in dire straits, and I'll show you someone that deserves to share in the profits. I don't see a lot of auto workers trying to send back some of their unearned money to keep the company afloat. Can't have it both ways. Harold |
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