I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent wipers
in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a manager at a
design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a system and have
several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True, they didn't have
555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more important than the
actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead to
designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. In the movie, it
looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me sick. Designers
and model builders need more respect but idea guys need to be revered!
(coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any, original ideas)

"Tom Gardner" wrote:

I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent wipers
in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a manager at a
design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a system and have
several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True, they didn't have
555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more important than the
actual design?

It must have been at least a decade or longer ago that I read about this gent winning his
case in the Detroit Free Press. Guy was tenacious.

Wes

On Sep 24, 6:28*pm, "Tom Gardner" wrote:
I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent wipers
in '63. *Think how things have changed in 45 years. *Today, a manager at a
design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a system and have
several designs on his desk by the end of the day. *True, they didn't have
555s in '63. *So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more important than the
actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead to
designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. *In the movie, it
looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me sick. *Designers
and model builders need more respect but idea guys need to be revered!
(coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any, original ideas)

Tom:
Any good (product) idea takes a commitment of time, smarts and money
to bring it to market and then do the right things that make it
successful (profitable). Those people with the balls to risk their own
personal funds, stay up late nights overcoming problems and plain just
won't take no for an answer are the ones that make it. There are also
a lot of people who did all the right things, built great products and
still failed. In my opinion, ideas are a dime a dozen. An idea is
nothing without the ability (taking the $ risk, generating the
commitment) to fund it, make it and sell it.
-Mike

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:28:33 -0400, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent wipers
in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a manager at a
design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a system and have
several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True, they didn't have
555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more important than the
actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead to
designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. In the movie, it
looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me sick. Designers
and model builders need more respect but idea guys need to be revered!
(coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any, original ideas)


Jerome H. Lemelson

"mlcorson" wrote in message
...
On Sep 24, 6:28 pm, "Tom Gardner" wrote:
I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent
wipers
in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a manager at a
design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a system and
have
several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True, they didn't have
555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more important than the
actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead
to
designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. In the movie, it
looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me sick. Designers
and model builders need more respect but idea guys need to be revered!
(coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any, original ideas)

Tom:
Any good (product) idea takes a commitment of time, smarts and money
to bring it to market and then do the right things that make it
successful (profitable). Those people with the balls to risk their own
personal funds, stay up late nights overcoming problems and plain just
won't take no for an answer are the ones that make it. There are also
a lot of people who did all the right things, built great products and
still failed. In my opinion, ideas are a dime a dozen. An idea is
nothing without the ability (taking the $ risk, generating the
commitment) to fund it, make it and sell it.
-Mike

Excellent reply! Also, those with the "hook" into a market search for ideas
for products that can be shoved into the existing pipe. That "pipe" is a
valuable commodity!

Sunworshipper wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:28:33 -0400, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent
wipers
in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a manager at a
design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a system and
have
several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True, they didn't have
555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more important than
the
actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead
to
designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. In the movie,
it
looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me sick.
Designers
and model builders need more respect but idea guys need to be revered!
(coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any, original ideas)


Jerome H. Lemelson

Edison had more inventions but he had squads of people doing a lot of the
work while old Tom took all the credit.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:28:33 -0400, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent wipers
in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a manager at a
design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a system and have
several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True, they didn't have
555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more important than the
actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead to
designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. In the movie, it
looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me sick. Designers
and model builders need more respect but idea guys need to be revered!

It doesn't work that way. Ya give 'em books, they eat the covers.
Been there, done that, had a lot of fun along the way. Won a buncha
patents though I don't own any nor care to. Idea guys find their own
happiness. A need to be revered is a sure route to frustration.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:48:28 -0400, the infamous "Tom Gardner"
scrolled the following:

Edison had more inventions but he had squads of people doing a lot of the
work while old Tom took all the credit.

Bill Gates could be considered a more modern rendition of Edison
style.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:48:28 -0400, the infamous "Tom Gardner"
scrolled the following:

Edison had more inventions but he had squads of people doing a lot of the
work while old Tom took all the credit.

Bill Gates could be considered a more modern rendition of Edison
style.


Except for the fact that Edison scrapped his bad ideas.



--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

"Tom Gardner" wrote:
I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent
wipers in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a
manager at a design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a
system and have several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True,
they didn't have 555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more
important than the actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead
to designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. In the
movie, it looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me
sick. Designers and model builders need more respect but idea guys need
to be revered! (coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any,
original ideas)

I remember hearing about how the guy who invented intermediate wipers got
screwed by the auto companies maybe 20 or 30 years ago. My reaction then,
and pretty much my reaction now is - any idiot could have thought that one
up.

Whey I see something like that, my thought is that this "inventor" was no
inventor at all. He had one idea in his life, and expected to get rich
from it. Real inventors create 10 ideas a day better than that one. Yes,
some people are much better than others at creating good original ideas,
but what's hard, is finding the one which is practical at the time you find
it, and which isn't so obvious that 10 other guys didn't think it up at the
same time. Dreaming up new ideas is easy. Finding new solutions which are
practical is not so easy. That requires a lot of research and
investigation to understand what will be needed, and at which point in time
it will become practical. And then creating a design that works, and is
affordable for the application.

At the same time this guy made the invention of his life - a timer to
control a motor, real inventors and creative engineers were at work
creating the SR-71 blackbird - something so advance and creative it
probably included a 1000 items more noteworthy than this timer, and none of
the engineers creating all those inventions every day expected to get
anything in return except another day's pay.

Now maybe there's more to this story and I'd like to see the movie to find
out. But mostly, I think the inventor probably had a greatly over inflated
ego. I don't doubt the auto companies ripped him off, but I also don't
think he deserved much more than about a day's pay for his "invention"
(from what I understand of it).

I think mostly, the movie is just an attempt to leverage the appeal of the
old theme of "little guy being screwed by large corporation and standing up
for himself" angle. I only wish it was over something more significant
than the "invention" of interment windshield wipers.

--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
http://NewsReader.Com/

On 26 Sep 2008 04:38:39 GMT, (Curt Welch) wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote:
I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent
wipers in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a
manager at a design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a
system and have several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True,
they didn't have 555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more
important than the actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead
to designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. In the
movie, it looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me
sick. Designers and model builders need more respect but idea guys need
to be revered! (coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any,
original ideas)

I remember hearing about how the guy who invented intermediate wipers got
screwed by the auto companies maybe 20 or 30 years ago. My reaction then,
and pretty much my reaction now is - any idiot could have thought that one
up.

Whey I see something like that, my thought is that this "inventor" was no
inventor at all. He had one idea in his life, and expected to get rich
from it. Real inventors create 10 ideas a day better than that one. Yes,
some people are much better than others at creating good original ideas,
but what's hard, is finding the one which is practical at the time you find
it, and which isn't so obvious that 10 other guys didn't think it up at the
same time. Dreaming up new ideas is easy. Finding new solutions which are
practical is not so easy. That requires a lot of research and
investigation to understand what will be needed, and at which point in time
it will become practical. And then creating a design that works, and is
affordable for the application.

At the same time this guy made the invention of his life - a timer to
control a motor, real inventors and creative engineers were at work
creating the SR-71 blackbird - something so advance and creative it
probably included a 1000 items more noteworthy than this timer, and none of
the engineers creating all those inventions every day expected to get
anything in return except another day's pay.

Now maybe there's more to this story and I'd like to see the movie to find
out. But mostly, I think the inventor probably had a greatly over inflated
ego. I don't doubt the auto companies ripped him off, but I also don't
think he deserved much more than about a day's pay for his "invention"
(from what I understand of it).

I think mostly, the movie is just an attempt to leverage the appeal of the
old theme of "little guy being screwed by large corporation and standing up
for himself" angle. I only wish it was over something more significant
than the "invention" of interment windshield wipers.


Yeah,

Real genius would have been to make the wipers pause at the top of
their stroke too. Using those Teflon blades with my intermittent
wipers is TERRIBLE. The freaking blades wipe the glass so clean,
they cause an almost "fingernails-on-the-blackboard" screech on the
backstroke so bad I have to hope for MORE rain.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

ps....I hear the garbage truck outside right now. THAT was real
genius!!

On Sep 26, 12:38*am, (Curt Welch) wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote:
I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent
wipers in '63. *Think how things have changed in 45 years. *Today, a
manager at a design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a
system and have several designs on his desk by the end of the day. *True,
they didn't have 555s in '63. *So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more
important than the actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead
to designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. *In the
movie, it looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me
sick. *Designers and model builders need more respect but idea guys need
to be revered! (coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any,
original ideas)

I remember hearing about how the guy who invented intermediate wipers got
screwed by the auto companies maybe 20 or 30 years ago. *My reaction then,
and pretty much my reaction now is - any idiot could have thought that one
up.

Whey I see something like that, my thought is that this "inventor" was no
inventor at all. *He had one idea in his life, and expected to get rich
from it. *Real inventors create 10 ideas a day better than that one. *Yes,
some people are much better than others at creating good original ideas,
but what's hard, is finding the one which is practical at the time you find
it, and which isn't so obvious that 10 other guys didn't think it up at the
same time. *Dreaming up new ideas is easy. *Finding new solutions which are
practical is not so easy. *That requires a lot of research and
investigation to understand what will be needed, and at which point in time
it will become practical. *And then creating a design that works, and is
affordable for the application.

At the same time this guy made the invention of his life - a timer to
control a motor, real inventors and creative engineers were at work
creating the SR-71 blackbird - something so advance and creative it
probably included a 1000 items more noteworthy than this timer, and none of
the engineers creating all those inventions every day expected to get
anything in return except another day's pay.

Now maybe there's more to this story and I'd like to see the movie to find
out. *But mostly, I think the inventor probably had a greatly over inflated
ego. *I don't doubt the auto companies ripped him off, but I also don't
think he deserved much more than about a day's pay for his "invention"
(from what I understand of it).

I think mostly, the movie is just an attempt to leverage the appeal of the
old theme of "little guy being screwed by large corporation and standing up
for himself" angle. *I only wish it was over something more significant
than the "invention" of interment windshield wipers.

--
Curt Welch * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *http://CurtWelch.Com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *http://NewsReader.Com/

SR-71 and intermittent wipers are two different types of ideas.

What could any one guy on the SR71 team, any of 'em, have done by
themselves?

Little ideas count too.
I had a microwave that had one damn nice feature.
Most microwave turntables, the dish spins at some rate that just seems
reasonable.
Now, most things you nuke go in for a time that's a multiple of ten
seconds.
Spin that platter at any old rate, and the mug you put in is now hot,
and the handle is pointing any old way, and chances are good you have
to grab the hot mug, or bend over and reach over the steam.
Now, spin that platter at 1 revolution per 10 seconds, and that handle
is right where you put it.

Genius!


Dave

On 26 Sep 2008 04:38:39 GMT, the infamous (Curt Welch)
scrawled the following:

"Tom Gardner" wrote:
I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent
wipers in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a
manager at a design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a
system and have several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True,
they didn't have 555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more
important than the actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead
to designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. In the
movie, it looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me
sick. Designers and model builders need more respect but idea guys need
to be revered! (coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any,
original ideas)

I remember hearing about how the guy who invented intermediate wipers got
screwed by the auto companies maybe 20 or 30 years ago. My reaction then,
and pretty much my reaction now is - any idiot could have thought that one
up.

How's the air up there, Curt? Pretty thin?


Whey I see something like that, my thought is that this "inventor" was no
inventor at all. He had one idea in his life, and expected to get rich
from it. Real inventors create 10 ideas a day better than that one. Yes,
some people are much better than others at creating good original ideas,
but what's hard, is finding the one which is practical at the time you find
it, and which isn't so obvious that 10 other guys didn't think it up at the
same time. Dreaming up new ideas is easy. Finding new solutions which are
practical is not so easy. That requires a lot of research and
investigation to understand what will be needed, and at which point in time
it will become practical. And then creating a design that works, and is
affordable for the application.

So, what petty idea was stolen from you to get you so vitriolic?


At the same time this guy made the invention of his life - a timer to
control a motor, real inventors and creative engineers were at work
creating the SR-71 blackbird - something so advance and creative it
probably included a 1000 items more noteworthy than this timer, and none of
the engineers creating all those inventions every day expected to get
anything in return except another day's pay.

True, with the type of contracts they have to sign to get work
nowadays. That's truly sad, too. The better companies share the
wealth and/or fame with their more inspired workers. THAT is the way
it should be, at least in most instances.


Now maybe there's more to this story and I'd like to see the movie to find
out. But mostly, I think the inventor probably had a greatly over inflated
ego. I don't doubt the auto companies ripped him off, but I also don't
think he deserved much more than about a day's pay for his "invention"
(from what I understand of it).

I haven't yet seen the movie, but to hear you rant like this without
having seen it is quite interesting. Tell us the real story behind
your acrid response, sir.


I think mostly, the movie is just an attempt to leverage the appeal of the
old theme of "little guy being screwed by large corporation and standing up
for himself" angle. I only wish it was over something more significant
than the "invention" of interment windshield wipers.

Just -try- to tell me that you've never used them, Curt.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:54:44 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



At the same time this guy made the invention of his life - a timer to
control a motor, real inventors and creative engineers were at work
creating the SR-71 blackbird - something so advance and creative it
probably included a 1000 items more noteworthy than this timer, and none of
the engineers creating all those inventions every day expected to get
anything in return except another day's pay.

True, with the type of contracts they have to sign to get work
nowadays. That's truly sad, too. The better companies share the
wealth and/or fame with their more inspired workers. THAT is the way
it should be, at least in most instances.

It's always been thus at many or most large companies: in the "fine
print" of the job application, it says that anything one thinks of, on
or off the job, belongs to the company. In practice, that only
applies to ideas relevant to the company's business: companies don't
go after a guy who designs engines during the day and invents new
fishing lures hoops nights and weekends.

My employer paid $1 for each patent filed back in the day. That was
later increased to $1500 per patent.

I never knew an engineer or scientist who felt shorted by this
approach. Engineers are paid to innovate and invent. It's part of
their job.
It's not an explicit job requirement, but those who do are usually
better compensated and have more interesting assignments than those
who don't.

Some feel that "the idea" is gold. In fact, there's a lot of work and
investment involved in getting from "idea" to profit. If ya wanna be
an inventor/entrepeneur, ya gotta do the whole job or get others to do
for you. Many or most engineers don't want to mess with the many
tedious and mundane aspects (and risks) of taking an idea from eureka
to market success.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On 26 Sep 2008 04:38:39 GMT, the infamous (Curt Welch)
scrawled the following:

"Tom Gardner" wrote:
I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent
wipers in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a
manager at a design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a
system and have several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True,
they didn't have 555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more
important than the actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead
to designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. In the
movie, it looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me
sick. Designers and model builders need more respect but idea guys need
to be revered! (coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any,
original ideas)

I remember hearing about how the guy who invented intermediate wipers got
screwed by the auto companies maybe 20 or 30 years ago. My reaction then,
and pretty much my reaction now is - any idiot could have thought that one
up.

How's the air up there, Curt? Pretty thin?

Whey I see something like that, my thought is that this "inventor" was no
inventor at all. He had one idea in his life, and expected to get rich
from it. Real inventors create 10 ideas a day better than that one. Yes,
some people are much better than others at creating good original ideas,
but what's hard, is finding the one which is practical at the time you find
it, and which isn't so obvious that 10 other guys didn't think it up at the
same time. Dreaming up new ideas is easy. Finding new solutions which are
practical is not so easy. That requires a lot of research and
investigation to understand what will be needed, and at which point in time
it will become practical. And then creating a design that works, and is
affordable for the application.

So, what petty idea was stolen from you to get you so vitriolic?

At the same time this guy made the invention of his life - a timer to
control a motor, real inventors and creative engineers were at work
creating the SR-71 blackbird - something so advance and creative it
probably included a 1000 items more noteworthy than this timer, and none of
the engineers creating all those inventions every day expected to get
anything in return except another day's pay.

True, with the type of contracts they have to sign to get work
nowadays. That's truly sad, too. The better companies share the
wealth and/or fame with their more inspired workers. THAT is the way
it should be, at least in most instances.

Now maybe there's more to this story and I'd like to see the movie to find
out. But mostly, I think the inventor probably had a greatly over inflated
ego. I don't doubt the auto companies ripped him off, but I also don't
think he deserved much more than about a day's pay for his "invention"
(from what I understand of it).

I haven't yet seen the movie, but to hear you rant like this without
having seen it is quite interesting. Tell us the real story behind
your acrid response, sir.

I think mostly, the movie is just an attempt to leverage the appeal of the
old theme of "little guy being screwed by large corporation and standing up
for himself" angle. I only wish it was over something more significant
than the "invention" of interment windshield wipers.

Just -try- to tell me that you've never used them, Curt.

My inflation adjusted $0.75...

On the subject of intermittent windshield wipers and patents, one of the
requirements for issuing a patent is supposed to be that the invention
is not obvious to someone in the field.

People in the automotive engineering field drive automobiles, and anyone
driving an automobile before / without intermittent windshield wipers
was already manually operating them in an intermittent fashion under
light rain conditions.

Based on that existing knowledge, automating the intermittent function
would indeed be obvious and therefore a patent for such would be invalid
whether issued to an independent inventor or an automobile manufacturer.

Pete C.

On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:33:15 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On 26 Sep 2008 04:38:39 GMT, the infamous (Curt Welch)
scrawled the following:

"Tom Gardner" wrote:
I'm seeing previews for the movie about the invention of intermittent
wipers in '63. Think how things have changed in 45 years. Today, a
manager at a design firm would tell a group of engineers to design such a
system and have several designs on his desk by the end of the day. True,
they didn't have 555s in '63. So, is it that a unique idea is a lot more
important than the actual design?

If you remember some of my previous posts about nurturing ideas that lead
to designs, this has been an area of extreme interest to me. In the
movie, it looks like Ford screws the idea/design guy, which makes me
sick. Designers and model builders need more respect but idea guys need
to be revered! (coming from a guy that has had very, very few, if any,
original ideas)

I remember hearing about how the guy who invented intermediate wipers got
screwed by the auto companies maybe 20 or 30 years ago. My reaction then,
and pretty much my reaction now is - any idiot could have thought that one
up.

How's the air up there, Curt? Pretty thin?

Whey I see something like that, my thought is that this "inventor" was no
inventor at all. He had one idea in his life, and expected to get rich
from it. Real inventors create 10 ideas a day better than that one. Yes,
some people are much better than others at creating good original ideas,
but what's hard, is finding the one which is practical at the time you find
it, and which isn't so obvious that 10 other guys didn't think it up at the
same time. Dreaming up new ideas is easy. Finding new solutions which are
practical is not so easy. That requires a lot of research and
investigation to understand what will be needed, and at which point in time
it will become practical. And then creating a design that works, and is
affordable for the application.

So, what petty idea was stolen from you to get you so vitriolic?

At the same time this guy made the invention of his life - a timer to
control a motor, real inventors and creative engineers were at work
creating the SR-71 blackbird - something so advance and creative it
probably included a 1000 items more noteworthy than this timer, and none of
the engineers creating all those inventions every day expected to get
anything in return except another day's pay.

True, with the type of contracts they have to sign to get work
nowadays. That's truly sad, too. The better companies share the
wealth and/or fame with their more inspired workers. THAT is the way
it should be, at least in most instances.

Now maybe there's more to this story and I'd like to see the movie to find
out. But mostly, I think the inventor probably had a greatly over inflated
ego. I don't doubt the auto companies ripped him off, but I also don't
think he deserved much more than about a day's pay for his "invention"
(from what I understand of it).

I haven't yet seen the movie, but to hear you rant like this without
having seen it is quite interesting. Tell us the real story behind
your acrid response, sir.

I think mostly, the movie is just an attempt to leverage the appeal of the
old theme of "little guy being screwed by large corporation and standing up
for himself" angle. I only wish it was over something more significant
than the "invention" of interment windshield wipers.

Just -try- to tell me that you've never used them, Curt.

My inflation adjusted $0.75...

On the subject of intermittent windshield wipers and patents, one of the
requirements for issuing a patent is supposed to be that the invention
is not obvious to someone in the field.

People in the automotive engineering field drive automobiles, and anyone
driving an automobile before / without intermittent windshield wipers
was already manually operating them in an intermittent fashion under
light rain conditions.

Based on that existing knowledge, automating the intermittent function
would indeed be obvious and therefore a patent for such would be invalid
whether issued to an independent inventor or an automobile manufacturer.

Pete C.


Not quite. The IDEA was obvious - the implementation was not.

Hoewever, I think I had mine working about the same time - My Mini had
Lucas wipers and switches. Intermittent, but not totally predictable
(kinda like a FORD)
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Pete C. wrote:

Based on that existing knowledge, automating the intermittent function
would indeed be obvious and therefore a patent for such would be invalid
whether issued to an independent inventor or an automobile manufacturer.

As useless as it was before, I now see that there is *no* reason
for a Patent Office, even for large companies. We can close it.

Until then, we can retroactively invalidate any patent claim
by simply saying "Well, I see it's just obvious that you would
invent this particular kind of assembly robot with these particular
features operated in this particular way."

Genius is recognizing the obvious before everyone else.
It should be rewarded.

--Winston

Winston wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Based on that existing knowledge, automating the intermittent function
would indeed be obvious and therefore a patent for such would be invalid
whether issued to an independent inventor or an automobile manufacturer.

As useless as it was before, I now see that there is *no* reason
for a Patent Office, even for large companies. We can close it.

Until then, we can retroactively invalidate any patent claim
by simply saying "Well, I see it's just obvious that you would
invent this particular kind of assembly robot with these particular
features operated in this particular way."

Genius is recognizing the obvious before everyone else.
It should be rewarded.

--Winston

Inventing a practical electric light - Genius
Inventing the telephone - Genius
Applying a timer to windshield wipers to do what people were already
doing manually - Obvious

Pete C. wrote:

Genius is recognizing the obvious before everyone else.
It should be rewarded.

--Winston


Inventing a practical electric light - Genius
People were already using candles, fireplaces and gas light.
According to your criteria, the electric light
is nothing more than another way to illuminate
a room.

You were referring to Joseph Swann's 1878 invention, the one
that he patented before Edison claimed it as his own, right?

Or were you talking about the 1839 arc lamp?

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1330.htm

Inventing the telephone - Genius
A faster, more convienient telegraph, invented 39 years before
the telephone.
Telegraph multiplexers proved you could place different audio
frequencies on a telegraph line. Duplex telegraphs proved you
could use the same line in both directions at the same time.
Was the telephone such a great leap from that point intellectually,
especially from our viewpoint in a spoiled, pampered future?

Applying a timer to windshield wipers to do what people were already
doing manually - Obvious

OK Pete, using your criteria these are all obvious and unpatentable, yes?:

* A clothes dryer that automatically sorts and folds your laundry.

* A kitchen robot that prepares 100's of your favorite dishes,
just the way you like them.

* A robot in the back yard that keeps the lawn in trim, cares
for your vegetable garden. Waters, weeds, mulches, fertilizes.

* A self - cleaning front yard that gathers and bales twigs and
leaves for pickup.

* A robot that vacuums your living room and hallway; another that
scrubs your kitchen floor: http://www.irobot.com/

* Another to do bomb disposal: http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=109


'Obviousness' is just another retroactive justification for theft.

--Winston

On 2008-09-26, Pete C. wrote:

Winston wrote:

[ ... ]

Genius is recognizing the obvious before everyone else.
It should be rewarded.

--Winston

Inventing a practical electric light - Genius
Inventing the telephone - Genius
Applying a timer to windshield wipers to do what people were already
doing manually - Obvious

The intermittent windshield wiper became practical when SCRs
(Silicon Controlled Rectifiers) or power transistors and circuits like
the 555 timer chip became inexpensive enough. The windshield wiper
motor already had a set of contacts to open the circuit when the wipers
reached the "park" position. All that was necessary was to kick the
wipers on for a moment (through the "run" wire) to get past the park
position, and then sit back to wait for it to park at the end of a
single wipe. Then wait an adjustable time and kick again. Since the
park contacts were not designed for that frequent a use (just once when
you turned off the wipers when the rain went away) adding solid state
components to it made it more reliable so you could depend on that to
work.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Winston" wrote:

* A clothes dryer that automatically sorts and folds your laundry.

* A kitchen robot that prepares 100's of your favorite dishes,
just the way you like them.

* A robot in the back yard that keeps the lawn in trim, cares
for your vegetable garden. Waters, weeds, mulches, fertilizes.

* A self - cleaning front yard that gathers and bales twigs and
leaves for pickup.

* A robot that vacuums your living room and hallway; another that
scrubs your kitchen floor: http://www.irobot.com/


You don't need robots for those jobs, we already have women!

Jon

DoN. Nichols wrote:


The intermittent windshield wiper became practical when SCRs
(Silicon Controlled Rectifiers) or power transistors and circuits like
the 555 timer chip became inexpensive enough.

(...)

I think the advent of the intermittent wiper and that of
cheap, high power semiconductors is largely a coincidence.
I do agree they were a match made in heaven regarding cost and
reliability.

Heck, if they had though of it, the folks in Detroit *could've*
made an 'intermittent' wiper control with a modified turn signal
blinker relay as early as 1926!

http://www.ideafinder.com/history/in.../windwiper.htm

What combination of parts (within your easy reach) will
be a revolutionary design feature *41 years from today*?

If you demonstrate it Monday afternoon, you will be a genius.

You can bet your bottom someone will come along on Tuesday
morning and call it 'obvious'.



--Winston

Jon Danniken wrote:

(...)

You don't need robots for those jobs, we already have women!

Jon

"The week was marked by a short burst of laughter followed by
several sleepless nights on the couch."



--Winston

On 26 Sep 2008 23:31:34 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2008-09-26, Pete C. wrote:

Winston wrote:

[ ... ]

Genius is recognizing the obvious before everyone else.
It should be rewarded.

--Winston

Inventing a practical electric light - Genius
Inventing the telephone - Genius
Applying a timer to windshield wipers to do what people were already
doing manually - Obvious

The intermittent windshield wiper became practical when SCRs
(Silicon Controlled Rectifiers) or power transistors and circuits like
the 555 timer chip became inexpensive enough. The windshield wiper
motor already had a set of contacts to open the circuit when the wipers
reached the "park" position. All that was necessary was to kick the
wipers on for a moment (through the "run" wire) to get past the park
position, and then sit back to wait for it to park at the end of a
single wipe. Then wait an adjustable time and kick again. Since the
park contacts were not designed for that frequent a use (just once when
you turned off the wipers when the rain went away) adding solid state
components to it made it more reliable so you could depend on that to
work.

Enjoy,
DoN.
A variable speed motor running a cam operated switch to trigger the
wipers in "intermittent" mode existed long before the SCR. Kinda like
the sequential flasher unit on the old cougar - but a lot simpler.
Long before the "genius" patented it.
His use of electronic timing to do the job was still patentable.

A lot more patentable than a lot of the crap patented recently - and
being disputed daily in the IT world.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Except for the fact that Edison scrapped his bad ideas.

I thought Geo. Westinghouse using Telsa's ideas scrapped Edisons bad ideas.

Wes

Brian Lawson wrote:

Using those Teflon blades with my intermittent
wipers is TERRIBLE. The freaking blades wipe the glass so clean,
they cause an almost "fingernails-on-the-blackboard" screech on the
backstroke so bad I have to hope for MORE rain.

Rainx, to heck with the wipers.

Wes

wrote:

Spin that platter at any old rate, and the mug you put in is now hot,
and the handle is pointing any old way, and chances are good you have
to grab the hot mug, or bend over and reach over the steam.
Now, spin that platter at 1 revolution per 10 seconds, and that handle
is right where you put it.

Another thought is on low power cycles where the power is cycled on and off, where is that
platter (and dinner) in relation to power on cycles?

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Wes" wrote in message
...
Brian Lawson wrote:

Using those Teflon blades with my intermittent
wipers is TERRIBLE. The freaking blades wipe the glass so clean,
they cause an almost "fingernails-on-the-blackboard" screech on the
backstroke so bad I have to hope for MORE rain.

Rainx, to heck with the wipers.

Wes

I'll second that! It's great stuff, pity it doesn't last longer before it
needs re-doing.

On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:21:35 +0800, the infamous "Den"
scrawled the following:



"Wes" wrote in message
...
Brian Lawson wrote:

Using those Teflon blades with my intermittent
wipers is TERRIBLE. The freaking blades wipe the glass so clean,
they cause an almost "fingernails-on-the-blackboard" screech on the
backstroke so bad I have to hope for MORE rain.

Rainx, to heck with the wipers.

Wes

I'll second that! It's great stuff,

I'll third that!


pity it doesn't last longer before it
needs re-doing.

I do my windshield about 3 times a year, but only do the side and rear
windows once. Initial application takes about half an hour, to clean
the windows and RainX 'em. Redoing the windshield takes five minutes.

Does anyone use FogX inside? How does it fare?

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

"Den" wrote:

I'll second that! It's great stuff, pity it doesn't last longer before it
needs re-doing.

I bought some windshield wiper fluid once with rainx in it. That worked really well.

Wes

Wes wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Except for the fact that Edison scrapped his bad ideas.

I thought Geo. Westinghouse using Telsa's ideas scrapped Edisons bad ideas.


No, it was still in use until a few years ago.


Microsoft ships theirs.

--
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listed, or I will not see your messages.

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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Den" wrote:

I'll second that! It's great stuff, pity it doesn't last longer before it
needs re-doing.

I bought some windshield wiper fluid once with rainx in it. That worked
really well.

Wes


I used to make my own washer fluid with Rainx, alcohol, industrial glass
cleaner and the blue stuff as a base. Now, I just use Rainx washer fluid.
Not as good as mine but passable.

On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 06:51:32 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:21:35 +0800, the infamous "Den"
scrawled the following:



"Wes" wrote in message
...
Brian Lawson wrote:

Using those Teflon blades with my intermittent
wipers is TERRIBLE. The freaking blades wipe the glass so clean,
they cause an almost "fingernails-on-the-blackboard" screech on the
backstroke so bad I have to hope for MORE rain.

Rainx, to heck with the wipers.

Wes

I'll second that! It's great stuff,

I'll third that!

Started using that stuff way back in about 1970 - and used it on the
rally car with excellent results in the eighties.


pity it doesn't last longer before it
needs re-doing.

I do my windshield about 3 times a year, but only do the side and rear
windows once. Initial application takes about half an hour, to clean
the windows and RainX 'em. Redoing the windshield takes five minutes.

Does anyone use FogX inside? How does it fare?

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:54:44 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



At the same time this guy made the invention of his life - a timer to
control a motor, real inventors and creative engineers were at work
creating the SR-71 blackbird - something so advance and creative it
probably included a 1000 items more noteworthy than this timer, and none
of
the engineers creating all those inventions every day expected to get
anything in return except another day's pay.

True, with the type of contracts they have to sign to get work
nowadays. That's truly sad, too. The better companies share the
wealth and/or fame with their more inspired workers. THAT is the way
it should be, at least in most instances.

It's always been thus at many or most large companies: in the "fine
print" of the job application, it says that anything one thinks of, on
or off the job, belongs to the company. In practice, that only
applies to ideas relevant to the company's business: companies don't
go after a guy who designs engines during the day and invents new
fishing lures hoops nights and weekends.

My employer paid $1 for each patent filed back in the day. That was
later increased to $1500 per patent.

I never knew an engineer or scientist who felt shorted by this
approach. Engineers are paid to innovate and invent. It's part of
their job.
It's not an explicit job requirement, but those who do are usually
better compensated and have more interesting assignments than those
who don't.

Some feel that "the idea" is gold. In fact, there's a lot of work and
investment involved in getting from "idea" to profit. If ya wanna be
an inventor/entrepeneur, ya gotta do the whole job or get others to do
for you. Many or most engineers don't want to mess with the many
tedious and mundane aspects (and risks) of taking an idea from eureka
to market success.

I'll never get another patent! Too expensive and the Russians ripped me
off!

"Tom Gardner" wrote:

I used to make my own washer fluid with Rainx, alcohol, industrial glass
cleaner and the blue stuff as a base. Now, I just use Rainx washer fluid.
Not as good as mine but passable.

You should have patented it

Wes

Tom Gardner wrote:

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Den" wrote:

I'll second that! It's great stuff, pity it doesn't last longer before it
needs re-doing.

I bought some windshield wiper fluid once with rainx in it. That worked
really well.

Wes


I used to make my own washer fluid with Rainx, alcohol, industrial glass
cleaner and the blue stuff as a base. Now, I just use Rainx washer fluid.
Not as good as mine but passable.


Passable? You're not supposed to drink it, Tom! ;-)


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

On 2008-09-27, Winston wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:


The intermittent windshield wiper became practical when SCRs
(Silicon Controlled Rectifiers) or power transistors and circuits like
the 555 timer chip became inexpensive enough.

(...)

I think the advent of the intermittent wiper and that of
cheap, high power semiconductors is largely a coincidence.
I do agree they were a match made in heaven regarding cost and
reliability.

Indeed.

Heck, if they had though of it, the folks in Detroit *could've*
made an 'intermittent' wiper control with a modified turn signal
blinker relay as early as 1926!

http://www.ideafinder.com/history/in.../windwiper.htm

Intersting. I would have sworn that all were vacuum powered at
that time -- but apparently I just neve looked at a high-end car from
that period -- or at least not with the idea of examining the windshield
wiper motor. I do know that the vacuum-operated ones were really nasty,
as when you were accelerating (and thus needed them most) they would
slow to a crawl. :-)

What combination of parts (within your easy reach) will
be a revolutionary design feature *41 years from today*?

I don't know -- yet. For that matter it may be something which
I have made and just take for granted, and nobody else knows about. :-)

If you demonstrate it Monday afternoon, you will be a genius.

You can bet your bottom someone will come along on Tuesday
morning and call it 'obvious'.

:-)

Obvious to me, at least. :-)

I do have a few patents (with the government having free access
to them, because I was working for the government at that time, and they
paid for the processing of the patents. :-) I considered each to be
obvious to *me* at least - since I was the one who thought of them.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Don Foreman wrote:
On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:54:44 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


At the same time this guy made the invention of his life - a timer to
control a motor, real inventors and creative engineers were at work
creating the SR-71 blackbird - something so advance and creative it
probably included a 1000 items more noteworthy than this timer, and none of
the engineers creating all those inventions every day expected to get
anything in return except another day's pay.
True, with the type of contracts they have to sign to get work
nowadays. That's truly sad, too. The better companies share the
wealth and/or fame with their more inspired workers. THAT is the way
it should be, at least in most instances.

It's always been thus at many or most large companies: in the "fine
print" of the job application, it says that anything one thinks of, on
or off the job, belongs to the company. In practice, that only
applies to ideas relevant to the company's business: companies don't
go after a guy who designs engines during the day and invents new
fishing lures hoops nights and weekends.

My employer paid $1 for each patent filed back in the day. That was
later increased to $1500 per patent.

I never knew an engineer or scientist who felt shorted by this
approach. Engineers are paid to innovate and invent. It's part of
their job.

My employer paid $500 or $1k and I never felt shorted during the
process, but 5 years later when the subpoena to defend the a patent that
had been sold to a bunch of litigous trolls showed up 4 days before
Christmas, I was way less than pleased. After spending a couple of days
preparing and giving deposition, I felt distinctly screwed on that $500
or $1k.

Filing patents for your employer is a lot like signing up for the
military in peacetime for their college benefits. You may get what you
expected, but you may wind up getting a completely different education,
at a time you did not expect.

BobH

DoN. Nichols wrote:

On 2008-09-27, Winston wrote:
(...)

If you demonstrate it Monday afternoon, you will be a genius.

You can bet your bottom someone will come along on Tuesday
morning and call it 'obvious'.

(...)

I do have a few patents (with the government having free access
to them, because I was working for the government at that time, and they
paid for the processing of the patents. :-) I considered each to be
obvious to *me* at least - since I was the one who thought of them.

You are too modest, DoN.


--Winston

On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 03:30:39 GMT, BobH
wrote:


My employer paid $500 or $1k and I never felt shorted during the
process, but 5 years later when the subpoena to defend the a patent that
had been sold to a bunch of litigous trolls showed up 4 days before
Christmas, I was way less than pleased. After spending a couple of days
preparing and giving deposition, I felt distinctly screwed on that $500
or $1k.

Why? The $500 or $1K was an "award" or honorarium for assigning
rights to said to your employer. Defending it is then his problem. If
he needs your help, he should pay for your time and services like he
does for any other time and services.

Filing patents for your employer is a lot like signing up for the
military in peacetime for their college benefits. You may get what you
expected, but you may wind up getting a completely different education,
at a time you did not expect.

I'm seeing more gimmewhine than professional here. Signing with the
military in peacetime or anytime conveys obligations as well as
benefits. Well duh! The military does not exist primarily to provide
college benefits. It exists to defend the nation against enemies
foreign and domestic. There is never a guarantee that there won't be
any enemies around during your service period. Pick yer pony, take
yer ride.

If your employer wants your professional services to help defend his
patent, fine. If he doesn't, that's his choice.

Part of being a professional is being ready to move at any time. The
alternative is becoming an indentured servant in exchange for an
illusion of security. Having to move can certaintly be very
inconvenient and expensive. In my case, clear willingness to do it
if and when necessary always made it unnecessary.

It would take singularly stupid management to **** off their most
prolific inventors, but there's no shortage of stupid management and
that does seem to be getting worse. My experience is dated, having
been retired for 9 years now.