Awl--

So I been agonizing over this, reading Fitch's stuff, bunch of other stuff,
and everyone seems to have trouble balancing the lines.

So I'm about to bite the bullet, and shell out some hefty bucks for
converters that supposedly hold +/- 5% between any leg--which is still not
great--but I cain't quite get the straight story from the various commercial
sources.
Some suggest they somehow load/unload caps with load, which others say is
not so great for pyooters/cnc, etc.

Phaseperfect.com has very pricey digital converters, 1% regulation--not
rotary, not static, just pure 120 deg 3 ph, they say. With really good
amps.
But, cnc mfrs I talked to hem and haw about the digitals, but the specs are
sure nice. Heavy, but not quite as heavy as rotaries.

But the gents at http://www.gwm4-3phase.com/digi.html may have let the cat
outta the bag.

Forget caps and all the bull****, the guy said, just get the biggest assed
idler you can!!! THIS is what stabilizes voltage!

So, I happen to already have an rpc "bank": a phaseamatic, a Steelcase
(commercially supplied rpc's), and regular motors: a big-assed baldor
Super-E 10 hp beauty (very expensive), and a current-gluttonous Magnatek, I
think.

So I fired up the Steelcase, which gives leg-to-leg variations of about 30
V!! Phaseamtic not much better.

So I used these to fire up the Baldor (just a motor), then *shut off* the
Steelcase/phaseamtic, and just measured voltages on the baldor. +/- about
15V, no load, on 240 input. Not bad!!

The magnatek also gave good results, but different.

wow.....

I'll have to measure this under load, but the baldor seems like it will
solve a lot of my problems--and likely save me $2K+++.

I would spend the money, if I really had confidence in what I was getting.
But if all CNC grade rpc's are is a bigger-assed motor, sheeit, I already
got those!

Btw, phase-a-matic uses baldor motors, but specially made, and they run
really really not-- over 200 deg!!!

Supposedly "real" rpc idlers are not just motors used for their 3rd leg,
supposedly different, but at this point, I don't know who/what to believe
anymore.

All I know is, that baldor leaves me sig'ly better off 3ph-wise than I was.

I'm still willing to pay for a "professional" solution, but I'm not sure
there really is a better one, unless I go with something like Phaseperfect's
digital, which not everyone agrees is great for cnc anyway.

Iny idears/comments?
--
DT

My phase converter holds voltage better than 5%. That's not because of
some magic, but because the two idlers are big and they have
capacitors attached to both legs.

If you have a big idler, and properly sized run caps, that apply to
both legs, it will have great regulation.

For $100 or $200 you can have a great phase converter.

Run your 10 HP Baldor just like you did, but put 80-100 uF run
capacitors between legs 1-3 and 2-3. Very likely, the output of that,
at low loads like 3 HP, would be extremely well behaved.

i

On 2008-07-17, DrollTroll wrote:
Awl--

So I been agonizing over this, reading Fitch's stuff, bunch of other stuff,
and everyone seems to have trouble balancing the lines.

So I'm about to bite the bullet, and shell out some hefty bucks for
converters that supposedly hold +/- 5% between any leg--which is still not
great--but I cain't quite get the straight story from the various commercial
sources.
Some suggest they somehow load/unload caps with load, which others say is
not so great for pyooters/cnc, etc.

Phaseperfect.com has very pricey digital converters, 1% regulation--not
rotary, not static, just pure 120 deg 3 ph, they say. With really good
amps.
But, cnc mfrs I talked to hem and haw about the digitals, but the specs are
sure nice. Heavy, but not quite as heavy as rotaries.

But the gents at http://www.gwm4-3phase.com/digi.html may have let the cat
outta the bag.

Forget caps and all the bull****, the guy said, just get the biggest assed
idler you can!!! THIS is what stabilizes voltage!

So, I happen to already have an rpc "bank": a phaseamatic, a Steelcase
(commercially supplied rpc's), and regular motors: a big-assed baldor
Super-E 10 hp beauty (very expensive), and a current-gluttonous Magnatek, I
think.

So I fired up the Steelcase, which gives leg-to-leg variations of about 30
V!! Phaseamtic not much better.

So I used these to fire up the Baldor (just a motor), then *shut off* the
Steelcase/phaseamtic, and just measured voltages on the baldor. +/- about
15V, no load, on 240 input. Not bad!!

The magnatek also gave good results, but different.

wow.....

I'll have to measure this under load, but the baldor seems like it will
solve a lot of my problems--and likely save me $2K+++.

I would spend the money, if I really had confidence in what I was getting.
But if all CNC grade rpc's are is a bigger-assed motor, sheeit, I already
got those!

Btw, phase-a-matic uses baldor motors, but specially made, and they run
really really not-- over 200 deg!!!

Supposedly "real" rpc idlers are not just motors used for their 3rd leg,
supposedly different, but at this point, I don't know who/what to believe
anymore.

All I know is, that baldor leaves me sig'ly better off 3ph-wise than I was.

I'm still willing to pay for a "professional" solution, but I'm not sure
there really is a better one, unless I go with something like Phaseperfect's
digital, which not everyone agrees is great for cnc anyway.

Iny idears/comments?

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

"DrollTroll" wrote in message
...
CLIP

Changing IDs again? You're confusing the simple minded folks like me...
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R



** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Joe AutoDrill wrote:
"DrollTroll" wrote in message
...
CLIP

Changing IDs again? You're confusing the simple minded folks like
me...

That's an old nym of his Joe.
There was another bit I've forgotten it.
LOL
He's a pistol.


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
"DrollTroll" wrote in message
...
CLIP

Changing IDs again? You're confusing the simple minded folks like
me...

How'd you know it was me?????



That's an old nym of his Joe.
There was another bit I've forgotten it.
LOL
He's a pistol.

This is the nym I use when ahm tryna be dignified'n'****.
Cain't hold out too long, tho.

I used Screachy Preachy for a while, which was really probably the most apt.
Then I tried Cunning Linguist, but heard that was sort of taken and old.
Much better to use that on alt.english.usage et al.

I achieved considerable status over on alt.english.usage (as DT), when I
asked for the entomology of "****ante", and nobody caught it for quite some
time.
AEU is quite a sophisticated My-dick-is-bigger-and-more-well-read-than-yours
arena.
OK, then, well, My-Scrabble-score-is-higher-than-yours....

90% of aeu is from the Upper West Side in Manhattan, trudging around in
flip-flops, in and out of Zabars and Barnes&Nobles/Starbucks, with the
NYTimes under one arm--and usually the WSJ under the other. And of course
the Atlantic Monthly when it comes out.

I suspect, tho, most of the 'boomers go to B&N/Starbucks for the A/C, a
Starbucks sugar high, and the resultant nappypoo. Yeah, and the
singles/gays cruise the magazine racks, mostly the muscle/fashion mags....

9% of aeu is from San Fran and Berkeley CA.
The last 1% are feriners tryna learn englich good.

Proctologically Violated©® is really my "soul handle".

Uh-oh.... I'm feeling the Violation.....

Hey, Props to Harold!
--
DT





--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

"Ignoramus20788" wrote in message
...
My phase converter holds voltage better than 5%. That's not because of
some magic, but because the two idlers are big and they have
capacitors attached to both legs.

If you have a big idler, and properly sized run caps, that apply to
both legs, it will have great regulation.

For $100 or $200 you can have a great phase converter.

Run your 10 HP Baldor just like you did, but put 80-100 uF run
capacitors between legs 1-3 and 2-3. Very likely, the output of that,
at low loads like 3 HP, would be extremely well behaved.

Hey Ig,

Leg 3 is the wild leg, right?

How big are your idlers?

I forgot to mention perhaps the weirdest thing: the wild leg off the Baldor
is LOWER than the 240 V input!! Izzat possible? I'll have to check it
again!

In googling diy rpc's, I saw one with 3 panel volt meters. How cool is
DAT??

--
DT



i

On 2008-07-17, DrollTroll wrote:
Awl--

So I been agonizing over this, reading Fitch's stuff, bunch of other
stuff,
and everyone seems to have trouble balancing the lines.

So I'm about to bite the bullet, and shell out some hefty bucks for
converters that supposedly hold +/- 5% between any leg--which is still
not
great--but I cain't quite get the straight story from the various
commercial
sources.
Some suggest they somehow load/unload caps with load, which others say is
not so great for pyooters/cnc, etc.

Phaseperfect.com has very pricey digital converters, 1% regulation--not
rotary, not static, just pure 120 deg 3 ph, they say. With really good
amps.
But, cnc mfrs I talked to hem and haw about the digitals, but the specs
are
sure nice. Heavy, but not quite as heavy as rotaries.

But the gents at http://www.gwm4-3phase.com/digi.html may have let the
cat
outta the bag.

Forget caps and all the bull****, the guy said, just get the biggest
assed
idler you can!!! THIS is what stabilizes voltage!

So, I happen to already have an rpc "bank": a phaseamatic, a Steelcase
(commercially supplied rpc's), and regular motors: a big-assed baldor
Super-E 10 hp beauty (very expensive), and a current-gluttonous Magnatek,
I
think.

So I fired up the Steelcase, which gives leg-to-leg variations of about
30
V!! Phaseamtic not much better.

So I used these to fire up the Baldor (just a motor), then *shut off* the
Steelcase/phaseamtic, and just measured voltages on the baldor. +/-
about
15V, no load, on 240 input. Not bad!!

The magnatek also gave good results, but different.

wow.....

I'll have to measure this under load, but the baldor seems like it will
solve a lot of my problems--and likely save me $2K+++.

I would spend the money, if I really had confidence in what I was
getting.
But if all CNC grade rpc's are is a bigger-assed motor, sheeit, I already
got those!

Btw, phase-a-matic uses baldor motors, but specially made, and they run
really really not-- over 200 deg!!!

Supposedly "real" rpc idlers are not just motors used for their 3rd leg,
supposedly different, but at this point, I don't know who/what to believe
anymore.

All I know is, that baldor leaves me sig'ly better off 3ph-wise than I
was.

I'm still willing to pay for a "professional" solution, but I'm not sure
there really is a better one, unless I go with something like
Phaseperfect's
digital, which not everyone agrees is great for cnc anyway.

Iny idears/comments?

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their
inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Changing IDs again? You're confusing the simple minded folks like
me...

How'd you know it was me?????

Your old sig used to list all the previous IDs... And for some reason,
*that* information stuck. It's amazing how my mind remembers the CUBI but
not the CUBI...

CUBI = Completely Useless/Useful Bits-o-Information.

This is the nym I use when ahm tryna be dignified'n'****.
Cain't hold out too long, tho.

I used Screachy Preachy for a while, which was really probably the most
apt.
Then I tried Cunning Linguist, but heard that was sort of taken and old.
Much better to use that on alt.english.usage et al.

Screachy Preachy is one I didn't know... Great. More CUBI.

CLIP

Proctologically Violated©® is really my "soul handle".

Uh-oh.... I'm feeling the Violation.....

TMI... TMI.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R



** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:14:53 -0400, "DrollTroll"
wrote:


I achieved considerable status over on alt.english.usage (as DT), when I
asked for the entomology of "****ante", and nobody caught it for quite some
time.
AEU is quite a sophisticated My-dick-is-bigger-and-more-well-read-than-yours
arena.
OK, then, well, My-Scrabble-score-is-higher-than-yours....

90% of aeu is from the Upper West Side in Manhattan, trudging around in
flip-flops, in and out of Zabars and Barnes&Nobles/Starbucks, with the
NYTimes under one arm--and usually the WSJ under the other. And of course
the Atlantic Monthly when it comes out.

****ant : pismire : an ant

When I was in college I had a summer job working with a retired Navy
chief who was prone to calling us "you little ****ants" while he was
screaming at us. He could also compound words with ****, as in, "Go
down to Short Beach and weed the rose-****ing-begonias" and it would
sound seamless as can be. I was shocked years later when a friend, who
grew up playing with Ray's kids, said that she never heard a swear
pass his lips.

And I'd be willing to bet Ray was never on the Upper West Side.

--
Ned Simmons

On 2008-07-18, DrollTroll wrote:

"Ignoramus20788" wrote in message
...
My phase converter holds voltage better than 5%. That's not because of
some magic, but because the two idlers are big and they have
capacitors attached to both legs.

If you have a big idler, and properly sized run caps, that apply to
both legs, it will have great regulation.

For $100 or $200 you can have a great phase converter.

Run your 10 HP Baldor just like you did, but put 80-100 uF run
capacitors between legs 1-3 and 2-3. Very likely, the output of that,
at low loads like 3 HP, would be extremely well behaved.

Hey Ig,

Leg 3 is the wild leg, right?

I do not like the word wild, but yes.

How big are your idlers?

10 and 7.5 HP

I forgot to mention perhaps the weirdest thing: the wild leg off the Baldor
is LOWER than the 240 V input!! Izzat possible? I'll have to check it
again!

No surprise

In googling diy rpc's, I saw one with 3 panel volt meters. How cool is
DAT??

very cool, I have one and want to install one too.

i

"Ignoramus31221" wrote in message
...
On 2008-07-18, DrollTroll wrote:

"Ignoramus20788" wrote in message
...
My phase converter holds voltage better than 5%. That's not because of
some magic, but because the two idlers are big and they have
capacitors attached to both legs.

If you have a big idler, and properly sized run caps, that apply to
both legs, it will have great regulation.

For $100 or $200 you can have a great phase converter.

Run your 10 HP Baldor just like you did, but put 80-100 uF run
capacitors between legs 1-3 and 2-3. Very likely, the output of that,
at low loads like 3 HP, would be extremely well behaved.

Hey Ig,

Leg 3 is the wild leg, right?

I do not like the word wild, but yes.

How big are your idlers?

10 and 7.5 HP

I forgot to mention perhaps the weirdest thing: the wild leg off the
Baldor
is LOWER than the 240 V input!! Izzat possible? I'll have to check it
again!

No surprise

In googling diy rpc's, I saw one with 3 panel volt meters. How cool is
DAT??

very cool, I have one and want to install one too.


Cupla Q's:

I've got a bunch of caps, and of course none are suitable. Do you have a
source for caps? And analog panel meters?

I'd like to monitor all three leg-leg voltages as well, possibly in
different locations--at the rpc, and at the Fadal. I'm a little surprised
cnc makers don't put voltmeters somewhere on the machine.

fyi, for people curious as to why caps have to be rated at 350+ V, that's
because AC voltage is rms, and the zero-to-peak voltage of a 120 V sine
curve is 177, iirc.
If the 120 V is 180 deg out of phase (which gives 240 V--which means the 3
ph from 240 V svc is right away slightly hobbled, phase angle-wise), you
have momentary voltages of 354 V.
120 V (to ground) legs that are true 120 deg out of phase gives slightly
less peak to peak, and is what gives 208 V rms. And is true-blue 3 ph.

Have you thought of switchable banks of caps, for ranges of loads? Good
idea?
For caps in parallel, you just add the cap values, right?

Should the run caps be disconnected at start up?
The start caps disconnected on run? Many designs disconnect the start caps,
maybe because the start caps are what give that really high generated leg?

I'm also thinking of experimenting with a very light resistive load (few amp
draw), connected to all three legs in delta and/or wye fashion. May help
initial regulation?

Have you noticed that the generated leg is very high wrt ground? I guess
that makes sense, since there is not really a complete circuit between the
two.

It's an inneresting trig problem to show the resultant sine curve and rms
voltages of two out-of-phase sine waves. May want to put his on your
algebra site as a real practical problem.
And from this show the intuitively obvious, that if two 120 V legs generate
240 between them, they MUST be 180 deg out of phase.

--
DT




i

On 2008-07-18, DrollTroll wrote:

"Ignoramus31221" wrote in message
...
On 2008-07-18, DrollTroll wrote:

"Ignoramus20788" wrote in message
...
My phase converter holds voltage better than 5%. That's not because of
some magic, but because the two idlers are big and they have
capacitors attached to both legs.

If you have a big idler, and properly sized run caps, that apply to
both legs, it will have great regulation.

For $100 or $200 you can have a great phase converter.

Run your 10 HP Baldor just like you did, but put 80-100 uF run
capacitors between legs 1-3 and 2-3. Very likely, the output of that,
at low loads like 3 HP, would be extremely well behaved.

Hey Ig,

Leg 3 is the wild leg, right?

I do not like the word wild, but yes.

How big are your idlers?

10 and 7.5 HP

I forgot to mention perhaps the weirdest thing: the wild leg off the
Baldor
is LOWER than the 240 V input!! Izzat possible? I'll have to check it
again!

No surprise

In googling diy rpc's, I saw one with 3 panel volt meters. How cool is
DAT??

very cool, I have one and want to install one too.


Cupla Q's:

I've got a bunch of caps, and of course none are suitable. Do you have a
source for caps? And analog panel meters?

The caps should not be expensive on ebay. I do not think that I have
any oil filled run caps.

I'd like to monitor all three leg-leg voltages as well, possibly in
different locations--at the rpc, and at the Fadal. I'm a little
surprised cnc makers don't put voltmeters somewhere on the machine.

You can use a multimeter for your testing.

fyi, for people curious as to why caps have to be rated at 350+ V, that's
because AC voltage is rms, and the zero-to-peak voltage of a 120 V sine
curve is 177, iirc.
If the 120 V is 180 deg out of phase (which gives 240 V--which means the 3
ph from 240 V svc is right away slightly hobbled, phase angle-wise), you
have momentary voltages of 354 V.
120 V (to ground) legs that are true 120 deg out of phase gives slightly
less peak to peak, and is what gives 208 V rms. And is true-blue 3 ph.

Have you thought of switchable banks of caps, for ranges of loads? Good
idea?
For caps in parallel, you just add the cap values, right?

Should the run caps be disconnected at start up?

You start your Baldor from something that is already running right?

If so, then you can leave the caps.

If you want to make a new phase converter, it is a different story.

i

The start caps disconnected on run? Many designs disconnect the
start caps, maybe because the start caps are what give that really
high generated leg?

I'm also thinking of experimenting with a very light resistive load
(few amp draw), connected to all three legs in delta and/or wye
fashion. May help initial regulation?

Have you noticed that the generated leg is very high wrt ground? I guess
that makes sense, since there is not really a complete circuit between the
two.

It's an inneresting trig problem to show the resultant sine curve and rms
voltages of two out-of-phase sine waves. May want to put his on your
algebra site as a real practical problem.
And from this show the intuitively obvious, that if two 120 V legs generate
240 between them, they MUST be 180 deg out of phase.


--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/