What's going to happen with Ethanol?

Even the drinking kind,

For the past few years, Midwestern Congresscritters have been clamoring
for the use of Ethanol - make from Midwestern Corn, of course - as a
major gasoline dilutor/additive as the ultimate clean-air solution for
non-alternative-fuelled cars and light trucks.

This campaign, of course, had its impact upon the incomes of Midwestern
Corn Farmers at the expense of the Public in five ways:
1. Ethanol-enhanced fuel corroded non-metallic fuel lines/filler
hoses that have to be replaced.
2. Meat prices rose due to the shortage of grain for cattle feed.
3. The supply of corn and corn products for human consumption
shrank, causing price jumps as well as shortages.
4. A number of states mandated the restriction of fuel sales other
than Ethanol-"Enhanced" fuels other than Diesel or Propane.
5. The supply of corn needed for the distillation of Bourbon and
Sour Mash Whiskies was sharply reduced.

Now that these measures are in place with farmers already under contract
to supply grain to the motor-fuel distillers, just what's going to be
happening now that Gaea has begun to speak?

Between the floods in the upper Midwest and the drought that's crippling
crops in the rest of the Central States, row crops are being wiped out
over the most productive agricultural areas.

What does this have to do with metalworking?

Plenty: most of us live/travel in areas that Federal and/or State
Agencies have decreed that Ethanol-"Enhanced" fuels must be used in lieu
of Gasoline, and most of us either consume corn - whether first- or
second-hand - or cook with corn products such as corn oil.

Between the pressures of the food industries and the motor-fuel
industries I believe that we're in for a *very* rough economic ride.

Don't forget, BTW, that Corn isn't the *only* crop being hit hard this
year: almost all row-crops - from string beans to soy beans - are also in
deep trouble.

Make plans, now, for much higher food prices over the next year even if
they start giving fuel away.

"RAM" wrote in message
...
What's going to happen with Ethanol?

Even the drinking kind,

For the past few years, Midwestern Congresscritters have been clamoring
for the use of Ethanol - make from Midwestern Corn, of course - as a
major gasoline dilutor/additive as the ultimate clean-air solution for
non-alternative-fuelled cars and light trucks.

This campaign, of course, had its impact upon the incomes of Midwestern
Corn Farmers at the expense of the Public in five ways:
1. Ethanol-enhanced fuel corroded non-metallic fuel lines/filler
hoses that have to be replaced.
2. Meat prices rose due to the shortage of grain for cattle feed.
3. The supply of corn and corn products for human consumption
shrank, causing price jumps as well as shortages.
4. A number of states mandated the restriction of fuel sales other
than Ethanol-"Enhanced" fuels other than Diesel or Propane.
5. The supply of corn needed for the distillation of Bourbon and
Sour Mash Whiskies was sharply reduced.

Now that these measures are in place with farmers already under contract
to supply grain to the motor-fuel distillers, just what's going to be
happening now that Gaea has begun to speak?

Between the floods in the upper Midwest and the drought that's crippling
crops in the rest of the Central States, row crops are being wiped out
over the most productive agricultural areas.

What does this have to do with metalworking?

Plenty: most of us live/travel in areas that Federal and/or State
Agencies have decreed that Ethanol-"Enhanced" fuels must be used in lieu
of Gasoline, and most of us either consume corn - whether first- or
second-hand - or cook with corn products such as corn oil.

Between the pressures of the food industries and the motor-fuel
industries I believe that we're in for a *very* rough economic ride.

Don't forget, BTW, that Corn isn't the *only* crop being hit hard this
year: almost all row-crops - from string beans to soy beans - are also in
deep trouble.

Make plans, now, for much higher food prices over the next year even if
they start giving fuel away.


By all the Soylent corp. stock you can.

Best Regards
Tom.

for the use of Ethanol - make from Midwestern Corn, of course - as a
major gasoline dilutor/additive as the ultimate clean-air solution for
non-alternative-fuelled cars and light trucks.


Over the last ten years riding a 30+ year old motorcycle cross-country I
have notice about a 20% loss of fuel mileage in Utah where ethanol has been
mandatory. I also have had, and know other who have had diaphrams leak and
"hard foam" carburetor floats sink due to the chemical action of ethanol. I
switched to diaphram-less carbs and made brass floats.
It fits in with the EPA's plan to get us all into modern vehicles. We will
burn more fuel in the long run, but have cleaner emissions at the test
station.
I will resist.
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty

RAM writes:

Make plans, now, for much higher food prices over the next year even if
they start giving fuel away.

And no one has explained how we're going to have billions of $2 gallons of
pure grain alcohol (1/25th price of legal booze) moving around the midwest
and not have a bootlegging problem that will make the troubles of the
Whiskey Rebellion and Prohibition look tame, and impose a huge societal
cost of increased drinking and alcoholism. Nobody is counting this in the
cost of this alternative "fuel". Grandma called it moonshine.

In less than a century, we go from outlawing ethanol in the US
Constitution, to making it a crime *not* to make and use it.

Richard J Kinch wrote:
RAM writes:

Make plans, now, for much higher food prices over the next year even if
they start giving fuel away.

And no one has explained how we're going to have billions of $2 gallons of
pure grain alcohol (1/25th price of legal booze) moving around the midwest
and not have a bootlegging problem that will make the troubles of the
Whiskey Rebellion and Prohibition look tame, and impose a huge societal
cost of increased drinking and alcoholism. Nobody is counting this in the
cost of this alternative "fuel". Grandma called it moonshine.

In less than a century, we go from outlawing ethanol in the US
Constitution, to making it a crime *not* to make and use it.

Something to do with the difference between
"small farmers" and "big ag" I think...

On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 05:17:59 GMT, RAM
wrote:

What's going to happen with Ethanol?

Even the drinking kind,

For the past few years, Midwestern Congresscritters have been clamoring
for the use of Ethanol - make from Midwestern Corn, of course - as a
major gasoline dilutor/additive as the ultimate clean-air solution for
non-alternative-fuelled cars and light trucks.
snip
==================
A very good and timely question.

The original idea was to find an outlet for *SURPLUS* corn and to
provide an outlet for corn crops on the fallow lands not
currently in production. When the ethanol program was
implemented, corn was selling *BELOW* the total cost of
production when all inputs were considered, e.g. cost of capital
and/or opportunity costs for land and equipment, and this
could/woud not continue. This appears to have been rational, and
would have the benefit of providing a domestic source of not only
fuel, but feedstock for other uses as well as a backup supply of
food, as well as [slightly] raising and stabilizing the corn crop
prices and providing farm and other employment in rural areas.

When the program was implemented, control was seized by the major
grain dealers such as ADM and Cargill, in concert the corporate
farms, and was allowed [or encouraged] to expand far too rapidly
and beyond all prudent limits. The taxpayers are now on the hook
for many of the ethanol production facilities as these were built
using local economic development funds but owned by private
interests in yet another case of "heads I win, tails you lose"
financial planning.

Bio fuels still have a future, but with cellulose rather than
starch/sugar inputs, from other than food crops or from food crop
waste, and non food but high yield oil crops, viable on marginal
cropland that would not be otherwise used.

Locally owned and controlled bio fuel operations are most likely
still very viable. What is not viable are the transnational
corporate bio fuel programs handicapped with grossly excessive
executive compensation, grossly excessive/isolated managerial
structures, and which largely depend on tax evasion and book
cooking for their "profits."

This shows [again] that even good ideas can be ruined by poor
implementation and greed, and that congress never seems to lear
to include limits and controls to prevent this from occurring,
for example including a provision automatically suspending the
ethanol blending requirement for gasoline based on the price of
corn, and limiting the ownership concentration of the bio fuel
operations that could receive any subsidies, tax exemptions, or
loan guarantees.

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...

snip


Bio fuels still have a future, but with cellulose rather than
starch/sugar inputs, from other than food crops or from food crop
waste, and non food but high yield oil crops, viable on marginal
cropland that would not be otherwise used.

John McCain has a new entry for biofuels: Whale oil. It hits right at the
biggest problem, which is the high price of diesel.

Smart thinking.

--
Ed Huntress

Richard J Kinch wrote in
:

RAM writes:

Make plans, now, for much higher food prices over the next year even
if they start giving fuel away.

And no one has explained how we're going to have billions of $2
gallons of pure grain alcohol (1/25th price of legal booze) moving
around the midwest and not have a bootlegging problem that will make
the troubles of the Whiskey Rebellion and Prohibition look tame, and
impose a huge societal cost of increased drinking and alcoholism.
Nobody is counting this in the cost of this alternative "fuel".
Grandma called it moonshine.

In less than a century, we go from outlawing ethanol in the US
Constitution, to making it a crime *not* to make and use it.

By mixing the ethanol immediately with petroleum-derived fuel there's no
issue.

Think "denatured" ethanol. grin

Back when I was in college, 4 frats broke into the Chemistry Dept. Office
and stole a can labled Ethanol, Pure, U.S.P. that had about a Liter in it.

They, then proceeded to go get drunk. [What did you EXPECT then to do with
it?]

They were identified the next morning and taken before the Dean 3 days
later.

Why the delay?

It was to enable them to get the the can, you see, while it DID contain
Ethanol, had had its contents "denatured" by the addition of Phenopthalien.
In addition to its use as a pH indicator, it's also the active ingredient
in EX-LAX!

It took them that long to get off the thrones. GRIN

Richard J Kinch wrote:
RAM writes:

Make plans, now, for much higher food prices over the next year even if
they start giving fuel away.

And no one has explained how we're going to have billions of $2 gallons of
pure grain alcohol (1/25th price of legal booze) moving around the midwest
and not have a bootlegging problem that will make the troubles of the
Whiskey Rebellion and Prohibition look tame, and impose a huge societal
cost of increased drinking and alcoholism. Nobody is counting this in the
cost of this alternative "fuel". Grandma called it moonshine.

In less than a century, we go from outlawing ethanol in the US
Constitution, to making it a crime *not* to make and use it.

Easy, it gets denatured by adding gasoline before it is loaded in the
tankers heading out of the plants. That is what is done now.

--
Steve W.

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:07:52 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
.. .

snip


Bio fuels still have a future, but with cellulose rather than
starch/sugar inputs, from other than food crops or from food crop
waste, and non food but high yield oil crops, viable on marginal
cropland that would not be otherwise used.

John McCain has a new entry for biofuels: Whale oil. It hits right at the
biggest problem, which is the high price of diesel.

Smart thinking.

Are you serious? Is he reading from Shrub's and/or the Democrats'
foot-shootin' playbooks?!?

--
Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants,
is the liberty of appearing. -- Thomas Paine

Steve W. writes:

Easy, it gets denatured by adding gasoline before it is loaded in the
tankers heading out of the plants.

I don't see how that's easy. First of all, that is at least tripling
the cross-country shipping of gasoline that is already only movable
economically by pipeline, not by truck. And ethanol fuels can't be
piped, has to be trucked. Instead of refinery to market, gasoline is
moving from refinery to ethanol plant to pipeline hub to market. Three
hops instead of one. And of course the politicians have forced us all
use this stuff in the far corners of the nation, as far away as possible
from the production, even though the blasted midwesterners are the most
economical market, as well as the ones who should be forced to gag down
their own shoddy product that they make us corner states subsidize.

But my bootlegging point is, how can you expect to be producing
literally billions of gallons of pure ethanol, and not have a signifcant
amount being diverted into bootlegging. Either it will happen on a huge
scale, or we will have to hire 100,000 IRS agents to watch every man on
every shift of every day in every plant, or have some horrifically
complex metering lockup apparatus performing no useful economic work.
You're producing stuff that is worth $2/gallon if it goes to the
denaturing line and $50/gallon if it walks out in somebody's lunch box.
We're talking about oceans of this stuff that really can't be accounted
for in bulk. It is entirely different than beverage distilling
(although the same industrial process) in that nothing leaves the
beverage plant without beverage tax paid.

This "we'll denature it" argument is a hoax. Do you really believe the
guys at the plant are going to buy Absolut vodka at $160/gallon (per
gallon of ethanol, not 80 proof) to pour in the punchbowl in the
Christmas party when the spigot over on the ethanol line is right there?
Or not be selling out the back of the pickup for $10 or $20 per gallon?
And we have to, what, make criminals out of them for doing so?

You can't simply trust a technical production process that is this
hobbled by complex and fragile legal appratus. Every tendency is for
the enforcement system to break, or to become horrifically expensive.
We can hardly enforce the simple laws, now we are going to add a massive
anti-bootlegging program on the federal level? If you like the TSA at
the airport, you'll love this.

Richard J Kinch wrote:
Steve W. writes:

Easy, it gets denatured by adding gasoline before it is loaded in the
tankers heading out of the plants.

I don't see how that's easy. First of all, that is at least tripling
the cross-country shipping of gasoline that is already only movable
economically by pipeline, not by truck. And ethanol fuels can't be
piped, has to be trucked. Instead of refinery to market, gasoline is
moving from refinery to ethanol plant to pipeline hub to market. Three
hops instead of one. And of course the politicians have forced us all
use this stuff in the far corners of the nation, as far away as possible
from the production, even though the blasted midwesterners are the most
economical market, as well as the ones who should be forced to gag down
their own shoddy product that they make us corner states subsidize.

But my bootlegging point is, how can you expect to be producing
literally billions of gallons of pure ethanol, and not have a signifcant
amount being diverted into bootlegging. Either it will happen on a huge
scale, or we will have to hire 100,000 IRS agents to watch every man on
every shift of every day in every plant, or have some horrifically
complex metering lockup apparatus performing no useful economic work.
You're producing stuff that is worth $2/gallon if it goes to the
denaturing line and $50/gallon if it walks out in somebody's lunch box.
We're talking about oceans of this stuff that really can't be accounted
for in bulk. It is entirely different than beverage distilling
(although the same industrial process) in that nothing leaves the
beverage plant without beverage tax paid.

This "we'll denature it" argument is a hoax. Do you really believe the
guys at the plant are going to buy Absolut vodka at $160/gallon (per
gallon of ethanol, not 80 proof) to pour in the punchbowl in the
Christmas party when the spigot over on the ethanol line is right there?
Or not be selling out the back of the pickup for $10 or $20 per gallon?
And we have to, what, make criminals out of them for doing so?

You can't simply trust a technical production process that is this
hobbled by complex and fragile legal appratus. Every tendency is for
the enforcement system to break, or to become horrifically expensive.
We can hardly enforce the simple laws, now we are going to add a massive
anti-bootlegging program on the federal level? If you like the TSA at
the airport, you'll love this.

One possible answer: pay tax on the ethanol as & where it is made, just
as though it were intended for drinking. This cost, naturally, gets
added to the price charged at each subsequent step, until:
Refund that tax when the ethanol is denatured into fuel.

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:07:52 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
.. .

snip


Bio fuels still have a future, but with cellulose rather than
starch/sugar inputs, from other than food crops or from food crop
waste, and non food but high yield oil crops, viable on marginal
cropland that would not be otherwise used.

John McCain has a new entry for biofuels: Whale oil. It hits right at the
biggest problem, which is the high price of diesel.

Smart thinking.
===================
That's good -- the sad thing is that I am not entirely sure you
are being funny.....

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:07:52 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
. ..

snip


Bio fuels still have a future, but with cellulose rather than
starch/sugar inputs, from other than food crops or from food crop
waste, and non food but high yield oil crops, viable on marginal
cropland that would not be otherwise used.

John McCain has a new entry for biofuels: Whale oil. It hits right at the
biggest problem, which is the high price of diesel.

Smart thinking.
===================
That's good -- the sad thing is that I am not entirely sure you
are being funny.....

Who's being funny? He's going for the vote in New Bedford, which badly needs
an economic boost.

We're working out a joint venture with the Japanese.

--
Ed Huntress

David R Brooks wrote in news:486b3ebf$0$3057
:

One possible answer: pay tax on the ethanol as & where it is made, just
as though it were intended for drinking. This cost, naturally, gets
added to the price charged at each subsequent step, until:
Refund that tax when the ethanol is denatured into fuel.

It's even easier to use a sealed system for production and to "denature"
the Ethanol by injecting additives immediately prior to pumping into the
storage tanks.

Drink it and die. grin

Actually, though, I'd suspect that they're producing the same stuff that
gets sold as a solvent in the same way.

That is not how it's done... at least not around here.
I run E85 in my vehicles and one day while I was fueling up, the tanker
driver pulled in and started unloading... so I asked him if they hauled
gasoline into the ethanol plant to make E85 or took an 85% full tanker of
ethanol to the gasoline depot to top it off?
Neither. The driver pulls a lever to manually add the "denaturant" (his
word) while he's loading the ethanol. He said the "denaturant" was
definitely not gasoline and he said it had a very strange, strong odor. The
driver told me that if he didn't pull the lever... he would have a tanker
full of straight ethanol and probably go to jail. LOL
The gas stations have two (or more tanks) and the ethanol blends are
mixed right at the pump. Summer "E85" is 85% ethanol, winter "E85" is 70%
ethanol... but what comes out of the plant is just denatured ethanol. They
change the summer/winter blend by adjusting the pump at the gas station.
One of the stations here is selling gasoline, E10, E20, E30, and E85...
and they only need two tanks to do it (one gasoline and one ethanol).



"Steve W." wrote in message
...


Easy, it gets denatured by adding gasoline before it is loaded in the
tankers heading out of the plants. That is what is done now.

--
Steve W.

Ed Huntress wrote:

Who's being funny? He's going for the vote in New Bedford, which badly needs
an economic boost.

We're working out a joint venture with the Japanese.

For purely scientific purposes, of course. The term used is "lethal
sampling".
Has anyone forged a harpoon? I'll also need work up a rendering kettle
centered landscape design.

*/
ce·tane
n. A colorless liquid, C16H34, used as a solvent and in standardized
hydrocarbons.

[Latin cētus, whale (so called because it is found in sperm whale oil);
see Cetus + -ane.]
/*

Aye,
Kevin Gallimore


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"axolotl" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Who's being funny? He's going for the vote in New Bedford, which badly
needs an economic boost.

We're working out a joint venture with the Japanese.

For purely scientific purposes, of course. The term used is "lethal
sampling".

They get the meat. All we want is the blubber.

Has anyone forged a harpoon? I'll also need work up a rendering kettle
centered landscape design.

*/
ce·tane
n. A colorless liquid, C16H34, used as a solvent and in standardized
hydrocarbons.

[Latin cetus, whale (so called because it is found in sperm whale oil);
see Cetus + -ane.]
/*

Aye,
Kevin Gallimore

When they call a Suburban or an Expedition a "barge," it will have new
meaning. Ahoy, matey, fill 'er up...

--
Ed Huntress

Richard J Kinch wrote:

And no one has explained how we're going to have billions of $2 gallons of
pure grain alcohol (1/25th price of legal booze) moving around the midwest
and not have a bootlegging problem that will make the troubles of the
Whiskey Rebellion and Prohibition look tame, and impose a huge societal
cost of increased drinking and alcoholism. Nobody is counting this in the
cost of this alternative "fuel". Grandma called it moonshine.

That is for purely taxing purposes, we 'denature' or in other words make it very leathal
to drink if taxes are not paid.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Ed Huntress wrote:

When they call a Suburban or an Expedition a "barge," it will have new
meaning. Ahoy, matey, fill 'er up...


Ya know, I could have a talk with the town fathers, and promote a
"Flensing Festival" on the beach. Get the city girls to play volleyball
while smeared with "Right Whale" suntan oil- call in MTV to shoot some
rap singers around the carcass...
I see a whole new entertainment industry here.

Kevin Gallimore


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

In article ,
"David Courtney" wrote:

One of the stations here is selling gasoline, E10, E20, E30, and E85...
and they only need two tanks to do it (one gasoline and one ethanol).

Gee, just like SUNOCO did many, many moons ago, with their octane
ratings. What the hell did they used to call that system? Oh, yeah,
Custom Blending." SUNOCO 190 to 260, lower than regular to Muscle Car
Joy Juice at 102 octane.

On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 01:25:40 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Steve W. writes:

Easy, it gets denatured by adding gasoline before it is loaded in the
tankers heading out of the plants.

I don't see how that's easy.

5 gallons of gasoline will "denature" thousands of (aprox 2000)
gallons of ethanol.

First of all, that is at least tripling
the cross-country shipping of gasoline that is already only movable
economically by pipeline, not by truck. And ethanol fuels can't be
piped, has to be trucked. Instead of refinery to market, gasoline is
moving from refinery to ethanol plant to pipeline hub to market. Three
hops instead of one. And of course the politicians have forced us all
use this stuff in the far corners of the nation, as far away as possible
from the production, even though the blasted midwesterners are the most
economical market, as well as the ones who should be forced to gag down
their own shoddy product that they make us corner states subsidize.

But my bootlegging point is, how can you expect to be producing
literally billions of gallons of pure ethanol, and not have a signifcant
amount being diverted into bootlegging. Either it will happen on a huge
scale, or we will have to hire 100,000 IRS agents to watch every man on
every shift of every day in every plant, or have some horrifically
complex metering lockup apparatus performing no useful economic work.
You're producing stuff that is worth $2/gallon if it goes to the
denaturing line and $50/gallon if it walks out in somebody's lunch box.
We're talking about oceans of this stuff that really can't be accounted
for in bulk. It is entirely different than beverage distilling
(although the same industrial process) in that nothing leaves the
beverage plant without beverage tax paid.

This "we'll denature it" argument is a hoax. Do you really believe the
guys at the plant are going to buy Absolut vodka at $160/gallon (per
gallon of ethanol, not 80 proof) to pour in the punchbowl in the
Christmas party when the spigot over on the ethanol line is right there?
Or not be selling out the back of the pickup for $10 or $20 per gallon?
And we have to, what, make criminals out of them for doing so?

You can't simply trust a technical production process that is this
hobbled by complex and fragile legal appratus. Every tendency is for
the enforcement system to break, or to become horrifically expensive.
We can hardly enforce the simple laws, now we are going to add a massive
anti-bootlegging program on the federal level? If you like the TSA at
the airport, you'll love this.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"axolotl" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

When they call a Suburban or an Expedition a "barge," it will have new
meaning. Ahoy, matey, fill 'er up...


Ya know, I could have a talk with the town fathers, and promote a
"Flensing Festival" on the beach. Get the city girls to play volleyball
while smeared with "Right Whale" suntan oil- call in MTV to shoot some rap
singers around the carcass...
I see a whole new entertainment industry here.

Kevin Gallimore

It would make a neat political ad, too. McCain dressed as Ahab, wooden leg
and all, with Moby Dick spouting in the background..."Hast seen the white
whale?"

Obama could be Queequeg, eating quahogs, quaffing grog...says that the white
whale actually is a metaphor for Ronnie Reagan and that McCain is acting out
his Oedipus complex...nails a gold doubloon to the mast...

--
Ed Huntress

5 gallons of gasoline will "denature" thousands of (aprox 2000)
gallons of ethanol.

I believe ASTM D 4806 specifies between 1.96 and 5 percent. I don't know
where you get your figures.

So this proportion of ethanol makes an extra cross-county round trip for
absolutely zero productive economic value, for no other purpose than to
enforce a tax consideration. What a complete joke. Only the government
would do this. No free market would ever support it.

David Courtney writes:

He said the "denaturant" was
definitely not gasoline and he said it had a very strange, strong odor.

May have been "natural" gasoline (pentanes and other stuff that comes from
the wellhead instead of a refinery). Or maybe they're getting rid of toxic
waste.

Wes wrote in article
...
Richard J Kinch wrote:

And no one has explained how we're going to have billions of $2 gallons
of
pure grain alcohol (1/25th price of legal booze) moving around the
midwest
and not have a bootlegging problem that will make the troubles of the
Whiskey Rebellion and Prohibition look tame, and impose a huge societal
cost of increased drinking and alcoholism. Nobody is counting this in
the
cost of this alternative "fuel". Grandma called it moonshine.

That is for purely taxing purposes, we 'denature' or in other words make
it very leathal
to drink if taxes are not paid.


My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes WERE
paid.......

"*" wrote in
news:01c8dd0b$5c0d1880$0395c3d8@race:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid.......

Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 "RAM³" wrote:
"*" wrote:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid.......

Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

But extreme care MUST be exercised with high proof "liquid dynamite"
like that - a little bit goes a long way, and a lot gulped down fast
can easily be enough to kill you before you start feeling the effects.

-- Bruce --

On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:09:21 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 "RAM³" wrote:
"*" wrote:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid.......

Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

But extreme care MUST be exercised with high proof "liquid dynamite"
like that - a little bit goes a long way, and a lot gulped down fast
can easily be enough to kill you before you start feeling the effects.

-- Bruce --


VERY true



"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the
name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program
until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it
happened." -- Norman Thomas, American socialist

On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:09:21 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Bruce L. Bergman quickly quoth:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 "RAM³" wrote:
"*" wrote:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid.......

Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

But extreme care MUST be exercised with high proof "liquid dynamite"
like that - a little bit goes a long way, and a lot gulped down fast
can easily be enough to kill you before you start feeling the effects.

(Shhhhhhhhhh! You'll spoil Darwin's Awards, Bruce.)

--
Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants,
is the liberty of appearing. -- Thomas Paine

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 "RAM³" wrote:
"*" wrote:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid.......
Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

But extreme care MUST be exercised with high proof "liquid dynamite"
like that - a little bit goes a long way, and a lot gulped down fast
can easily be enough to kill you before you start feeling the effects.

-- Bruce --


Works great to spike the punch at the local HS graduation party... Not
that I would know anything at all about that kind of thing.....

Also works real well in an alcohol lamp, while providing a hiding spot
while preparing for the above...

--
Steve W.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:09:21 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 "RAM³" wrote:
"*" wrote:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid.......

Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink
by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

But extreme care MUST be exercised with high proof "liquid dynamite"
like that - a little bit goes a long way, and a lot gulped down fast
can easily be enough to kill you before you start feeling the effects.

-- Bruce --


VERY true



Practice helps! grin

In my younger days, I got a LOT of practice. GRIN

The biggest problem that I had to cope with was simply how to enjoy the
flavors without getting the effect.

The second biggest problem was the size of my booze bill.

Fortunately, for my liver, my solution was to give up on the biggest problem
and almost eliminate the second. grin

Does anyone know of a process that'd remove all of the intoxicants from a
good Single-Malt Scots Whiskey without changing its flavor? If so, that'd be
the ideal solution for me!

On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:18:20 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 "RAM³" wrote:
"*" wrote:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid...

Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

But extreme care MUST be exercised with high proof "liquid dynamite"
like that - a little bit goes a long way, and a lot gulped down fast
can easily be enough to kill you before you start feeling the effects.

-- Bruce --


Works great to spike the punch at the local HS graduation party... Not
that I would know anything at all about that kind of thing.....

Also works real well in an alcohol lamp, while providing a hiding spot
while preparing for the above...

Oh, I know about it - Have a relative who works in a big R&D Lab,
the name of which I shall not mention. I've heard stories...

They would order a gallon of Reagent Grade 99.x% Neutral Grain
Ethanol for the punch at the Christmas party - and they made sure it
was kept in a locked box and only one person was in charge of the key,
so they didn't get a double-spike (or worse) by accident.

And the punchbowl with a kick was identified so nobody forgot which
one was the Chalice from the Palace.

-- Bruce --

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:18:20 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 "RAM³" wrote:
"*" wrote:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid...

Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink
by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

But extreme care MUST be exercised with high proof "liquid dynamite"
like that - a little bit goes a long way, and a lot gulped down fast
can easily be enough to kill you before you start feeling the effects.

-- Bruce --


Works great to spike the punch at the local HS graduation party... Not
that I would know anything at all about that kind of thing.....

Also works real well in an alcohol lamp, while providing a hiding spot
while preparing for the above...

Oh, I know about it - Have a relative who works in a big R&D Lab,
the name of which I shall not mention. I've heard stories...

They would order a gallon of Reagent Grade 99.x% Neutral Grain
Ethanol for the punch at the Christmas party - and they made sure it
was kept in a locked box and only one person was in charge of the key,
so they didn't get a double-spike (or worse) by accident.

And the punchbowl with a kick was identified so nobody forgot which
one was the Chalice from the Palace.

Speaking of repurposed ethanol, my dad told me about what happened at
Guadalcanal when a drum of torpedo fuel washed up on the beach. Apparently
the trick was to "filter" it through a loaf of bread. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:21:50 -0500, "RAM³"
wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:09:21 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 "RAM³" wrote:
"*" wrote:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid.......

Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink
by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

But extreme care MUST be exercised with high proof "liquid dynamite"
like that - a little bit goes a long way, and a lot gulped down fast
can easily be enough to kill you before you start feeling the effects.

-- Bruce --


VERY true



Practice helps! grin

In my younger days, I got a LOT of practice. GRIN

The biggest problem that I had to cope with was simply how to enjoy the
flavors without getting the effect.

The second biggest problem was the size of my booze bill.

Fortunately, for my liver, my solution was to give up on the biggest problem
and almost eliminate the second. grin

Does anyone know of a process that'd remove all of the intoxicants from a
good Single-Malt Scots Whiskey without changing its flavor? If so, that'd be
the ideal solution for me!


You actually LIKE the taste?


Brrrrr......


Gunner


"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the
name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program
until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it
happened." -- Norman Thomas, American socialist

Stupendous Man wrote:
for the use of Ethanol - make from Midwestern Corn, of course - as a
major gasoline dilutor/additive as the ultimate clean-air solution for
non-alternative-fuelled cars and light trucks.


Over the last ten years riding a 30+ year old motorcycle cross-country I
have notice about a 20% loss of fuel mileage in Utah where ethanol has
been mandatory. I also have had, and know other who have had diaphrams
leak and "hard foam" carburetor floats sink due to the chemical action
of ethanol. I switched to diaphram-less carbs and made brass floats.
It fits in with the EPA's plan to get us all into modern vehicles. We
will burn more fuel in the long run, but have cleaner emissions at the
test station.
I will resist.

I had a 1983 Saab on a boat ramp in ~ 1988, when the car would not
start. The tide was coming in.

Later, others told me that the Alcohol in the new fuel dissolves the
diaphragm in the fuel pump.

It felt like someone played a dirty trick on me.

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "RAM³"
wrote on Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:21:50 -0500
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:09:21 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 "RAM³" wrote:
"*" wrote:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid.......

Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink
by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

But extreme care MUST be exercised with high proof "liquid dynamite"
like that - a little bit goes a long way, and a lot gulped down fast
can easily be enough to kill you before you start feeling the effects.

-- Bruce --


VERY true



Practice helps! grin

In my younger days, I got a LOT of practice. GRIN

The biggest problem that I had to cope with was simply how to enjoy the
flavors without getting the effect.

The second biggest problem was the size of my booze bill.

Fortunately, for my liver, my solution was to give up on the biggest problem
and almost eliminate the second. grin

Does anyone know of a process that'd remove all of the intoxicants from a
good Single-Malt Scots Whiskey without changing its flavor? If so, that'd be
the ideal solution for me!

Kind of hard to do, as it is the interaction of ethanol with all
the stuff dissolved in it (mostly water).
Sorry, but what you're asking for recalls to mind people drinking
Decaffeinated Diet sodas - why?


Some years ago, I stopped buying soda pop. Not even for mixers. Had
to buy better booze, as I couldn't hide the taste of cheap hooch with
the coke.
Which is another route for you to consider: "Sippin' whisky" That
is, this is whisky drunk for enjoyment of the drink, not a vehicle for
ingesting ethanol in a headlong charge towards drunkenness and
oblivion. Slow down and enjoy it.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Bruce L. Bergman
wrote on Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:09:21
-0700 in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 "RAM³" wrote:
"*" wrote:

My guess is that it would be just as lethal to drink even if the taxes
WERE paid.......

Everclear - "pure" (95%) grain-derived Ethanol - is a nice, mild, drink by
itself and provides only a mild dilution effect to mixers. G

Try it some time!

But extreme care MUST be exercised with high proof "liquid dynamite"
like that - a little bit goes a long way, and a lot gulped down fast
can easily be enough to kill you before you start feeling the effects.

Been there, watched that. What's the old expression "Drunk as
only a college freshman can be"?

Only in this case, it was High School, at a military base in
Europe, and a half bottle of anise. Chugged down by a lad with more
testosterone than smarts (the group which ruin things for the other
2%). He passed out, but didn't stop breathing, had a pulse in the
low 60s. but we called for an ambulance anyway. We were more
concerned that the youth center director would find us before the
ambulance arrived. Eh, it was the 70s.
Sigh, the things we survive, which scared the bejeebers out of us,
that we look back on as mere "youthful scrapes"


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

"Clark Magnuson" wrote:

I had a 1983 Saab on a boat ramp in ~ 1988, when the car would not start.
The tide was coming in.

Later, others told me that the Alcohol in the new fuel dissolves the
diaphragm in the fuel pump.

It felt like someone played a dirty trick on me.

Don't leave us hanging, man, what happened to the car?

Jon