Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old May 7th 08, 06:19 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Titanium Alloys?


"Terry Keeley" tkee(no wrote in message
...
Thanks again Ed, so high tensile strength is what I'm after.

Actually weight is a huge factor, these are for record attempt boats and
any weight on the right sponson has to be minimized to help counter
prop-walk. I'm running in a class that has a 120+ mph record and my buddy
I mentioned just broke the record in his class running 103+, here's pix if
you're interested:

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/thumbnails.php?album=1002

Here's the fin I'm talking about on my hull:

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/albums...anImage011.jpg


Oh, those are cool, Terry, and they look like a lot of fun. We were
discussing here recently that my uncle raced model hydros like that in the
1930s, in a 35cc IC class and in a steam class (he used gasoline-fired flash
steam). I sure wish I had the photos of those.


Wonder if one of the magnesium alloys might be better?


It looks to me like you have four engineering factors he weight,
hydrodynamic drag, stiffness, and strength. Magnesium has roughly the same
ratio of strength/weight and stiffness/weight of most metals (titanium is
somewhat out of line, having high strength/weight but low stiffness for its
strength). So magnesium would result in a thicker, if somewhat ligher, fin.

I couldn't begin to evaluate the engineering options, but as a materials
freak, the first thing I would look at is unidirectional boron-fiber
aluminum composite. The second thing I'd look into would be a boron-fiber
epoxy composite. I'm not making life easy for you with that one. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress



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Old May 7th 08, 07:34 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Titanium Alloys?

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Terry Keeley" tkee(no wrote in message
...

Thanks again Ed, so high tensile strength is what I'm after.

Actually weight is a huge factor, these are for record attempt boats and
any weight on the right sponson has to be minimized to help counter
prop-walk. I'm running in a class that has a 120+ mph record and my buddy
I mentioned just broke the record in his class running 103+, here's pix if
you're interested:

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/thumbnails.php?album=1002

Here's the fin I'm talking about on my hull:

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/albums...anImage011.jpg



Oh, those are cool, Terry, and they look like a lot of fun. We were
discussing here recently that my uncle raced model hydros like that in the
1930s, in a 35cc IC class and in a steam class (he used gasoline-fired flash
steam). I sure wish I had the photos of those.


Wonder if one of the magnesium alloys might be better?



It looks to me like you have four engineering factors he weight,
hydrodynamic drag, stiffness, and strength. Magnesium has roughly the same
ratio of strength/weight and stiffness/weight of most metals (titanium is
somewhat out of line, having high strength/weight but low stiffness for its
strength). So magnesium would result in a thicker, if somewhat ligher, fin.

I couldn't begin to evaluate the engineering options, but as a materials
freak, the first thing I would look at is unidirectional boron-fiber
aluminum composite. The second thing I'd look into would be a boron-fiber
epoxy composite. I'm not making life easy for you with that one. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress



Is this really a materials issue?

Or Temper?



--
(remove the X to email)

Now just why the HELL do I have to press 1 for English?
John Wayne
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Old May 7th 08, 08:16 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 12,540
Default Titanium Alloys?


"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"Terry Keeley" tkee(no wrote in message
...

Thanks again Ed, so high tensile strength is what I'm after.

Actually weight is a huge factor, these are for record attempt boats and
any weight on the right sponson has to be minimized to help counter
prop-walk. I'm running in a class that has a 120+ mph record and my buddy
I mentioned just broke the record in his class running 103+, here's pix
if you're interested:

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/thumbnails.php?album=1002

Here's the fin I'm talking about on my hull:

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/albums...anImage011.jpg



Oh, those are cool, Terry, and they look like a lot of fun. We were
discussing here recently that my uncle raced model hydros like that in
the 1930s, in a 35cc IC class and in a steam class (he used
gasoline-fired flash steam). I sure wish I had the photos of those.


Wonder if one of the magnesium alloys might be better?



It looks to me like you have four engineering factors he weight,
hydrodynamic drag, stiffness, and strength. Magnesium has roughly the
same ratio of strength/weight and stiffness/weight of most metals
(titanium is somewhat out of line, having high strength/weight but low
stiffness for its strength). So magnesium would result in a thicker, if
somewhat ligher, fin.

I couldn't begin to evaluate the engineering options, but as a materials
freak, the first thing I would look at is unidirectional boron-fiber
aluminum composite. The second thing I'd look into would be a boron-fiber
epoxy composite. I'm not making life easy for you with that one. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress


Is this really a materials issue?

Or Temper?


If the object is to have the highest possible stiffness and strength for a
given density, it's really a materials issue -- and metal-matrix composites
look to me like the winner. Since the volume of material is low and the
objective is very high, it may be worth the effort and hassle.

And it is a hassle. Just cutting the stuff can be a nightmare. BTW, most of
the aluminum composites available today are not boron-fiber reinforced, but
other ceramics, like aluminum oxide and boron nitride.

--
Ed Huntress


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Old May 7th 08, 10:51 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 28
Default Titanium Alloys?

Having the fin as thin as possible is the most important, then weight and
strength. Looks like a heat-treated Ti alloy is in fact the best choice,
other than some "unobtainium", LOL!

Thanks again for all your help, my goal is to travel our 330' course in 1.8
sec!



"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"Terry Keeley" tkee(no wrote in message
...

Thanks again Ed, so high tensile strength is what I'm after.

Actually weight is a huge factor, these are for record attempt boats and
any weight on the right sponson has to be minimized to help counter
prop-walk. I'm running in a class that has a 120+ mph record and my
buddy I mentioned just broke the record in his class running 103+,
here's pix if you're interested:

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/thumbnails.php?album=1002

Here's the fin I'm talking about on my hull:

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/albums...anImage011.jpg


Oh, those are cool, Terry, and they look like a lot of fun. We were
discussing here recently that my uncle raced model hydros like that in
the 1930s, in a 35cc IC class and in a steam class (he used
gasoline-fired flash steam). I sure wish I had the photos of those.


Wonder if one of the magnesium alloys might be better?


It looks to me like you have four engineering factors he weight,
hydrodynamic drag, stiffness, and strength. Magnesium has roughly the
same ratio of strength/weight and stiffness/weight of most metals
(titanium is somewhat out of line, having high strength/weight but low
stiffness for its strength). So magnesium would result in a thicker, if
somewhat ligher, fin.

I couldn't begin to evaluate the engineering options, but as a materials
freak, the first thing I would look at is unidirectional boron-fiber
aluminum composite. The second thing I'd look into would be a
boron-fiber epoxy composite. I'm not making life easy for you with that
one. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress


Is this really a materials issue?

Or Temper?


If the object is to have the highest possible stiffness and strength for a
given density, it's really a materials issue -- and metal-matrix
composites look to me like the winner. Since the volume of material is low
and the objective is very high, it may be worth the effort and hassle.

And it is a hassle. Just cutting the stuff can be a nightmare. BTW, most
of the aluminum composites available today are not boron-fiber reinforced,
but other ceramics, like aluminum oxide and boron nitride.

--
Ed Huntress



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Old May 8th 08, 12:34 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 12,540
Default Titanium Alloys?


"Terry Keeley" tkee(no wrote in message
...
Having the fin as thin as possible is the most important, then weight and
strength. Looks like a heat-treated Ti alloy is in fact the best choice,
other than some "unobtainium", LOL!

Thanks again for all your help, my goal is to travel our 330' course in
1.8 sec!


Well, good luck. Let us know how you do with it.

--
Ed Huntress





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Old May 8th 08, 01:40 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 28
Default Titanium Alloys?

Sure will thanks!


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Terry Keeley" tkee(no wrote in message
...
Having the fin as thin as possible is the most important, then weight and
strength. Looks like a heat-treated Ti alloy is in fact the best choice,
other than some "unobtainium", LOL!

Thanks again for all your help, my goal is to travel our 330' course in
1.8 sec!


Well, good luck. Let us know how you do with it.

--
Ed Huntress





  #7   Report Post  
Old May 8th 08, 07:45 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,417
Default Titanium Alloys?

Guessing here, but maybe you are looking for Titanium-Nickel
alloy (TiNi)?

If I remember correctly that is what the bows are made of on
my glasses. You can bend them almost 90 deg and they will
spring back to their original shape. Here is some info from
a research project I found:

===
"Tensile Properties and Transformation Temperatures of Ti-Ni
Alloy Dental Castings Added Cu

Hisashi Doi, Equo Kobayashi, Takayuki Yoneyama and Hitoshi
Hamanaka

Department of Metallurgy, Division of Biomaterials,
Institute of Biomaterials and Bioengineering, Tokyo Medical
and Dental University
(2-3-10, Kanda-Surugadai, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 101-0062)
Original Paper: J J Dent Mate Vol. 20 No. 1 48-53 (2001)
Keyword: Titanium-nickel alloy, Superelasticity, Mechanical
properties

The application of the Ti-Ni base alloy to dentistry is
expected to utilize its shape memory effect and
super-elasticity properties. The transformation temperature
changes when part of the nickel in a Ti-Ni alloy is replaced
with copper. In this study, the super-elastic property of
Ti-Ni alloy in which part of the nickel was replaced with
10mol% of copper was investigated, and the application of
this alloy to dental casting was also examined. The results
of this study showed that the super-elasticity of dental
casted Ti-Ni-Cu alloy with 10mol% of replacement copper was
good and that this maybe a useful method of reducing the
quantity of nickel in Ti-Ni based alloy."
===

From Mat-world:

Titanium Nickel Alloy
TiNi Alloy
Ti-Ni (50:50 wt%)
Ingots, Wires, Sputtering Target, Sheet, Plate, Disk

http://www.mat-world.com/En_elements/ti.html

Maybe this is the stuff you are looking for or could use...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email
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Old May 9th 08, 01:15 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 235
Default Titanium Alloys?

On Wed, 7 May 2008 19:34:20 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Terry Keeley" tkee(no wrote in message
...
Having the fin as thin as possible is the most important, then weight and
strength. Looks like a heat-treated Ti alloy is in fact the best choice,
other than some "unobtainium", LOL!

Thanks again for all your help, my goal is to travel our 330' course in
1.8 sec!


Well, good luck. Let us know how you do with it.


can you work harden titanium by hammering it to shape?
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Old May 9th 08, 01:48 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 28
Default Titanium Alloys?

Thanks for the reply, but no, I need to put a slight bend in it, just need
it to be stronger than the annealed stuff I have.

Found out the "other" alloys (662, 6242, 6246) harden better than good 'ol
6-4, so I'm looking for something like this:

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataShe...D=14246&ckck=1

Tensile way up there and quite a bit harder too. Turns out that finding
heat-treated Ti isn't that easy, most of the robot places and surplus on
e-bay only have annealed.

Anyone have any idea where to fin a small amount of 0.025-0.030" hardened
sheet?

TIA



"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
Guessing here, but maybe you are looking for Titanium-Nickel
alloy (TiNi)?

If I remember correctly that is what the bows are made of on
my glasses. You can bend them almost 90 deg and they will
spring back to their original shape. Here is some info from
a research project I found:

===
"Tensile Properties and Transformation Temperatures of Ti-Ni
Alloy Dental Castings Added Cu

Hisashi Doi, Equo Kobayashi, Takayuki Yoneyama and Hitoshi
Hamanaka

Department of Metallurgy, Division of Biomaterials,
Institute of Biomaterials and Bioengineering, Tokyo Medical
and Dental University
(2-3-10, Kanda-Surugadai, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 101-0062)
Original Paper: J J Dent Mate Vol. 20 No. 1 48-53 (2001)
Keyword: Titanium-nickel alloy, Superelasticity, Mechanical
properties

The application of the Ti-Ni base alloy to dentistry is
expected to utilize its shape memory effect and
super-elasticity properties. The transformation temperature
changes when part of the nickel in a Ti-Ni alloy is replaced
with copper. In this study, the super-elastic property of
Ti-Ni alloy in which part of the nickel was replaced with
10mol% of copper was investigated, and the application of
this alloy to dental casting was also examined. The results
of this study showed that the super-elasticity of dental
casted Ti-Ni-Cu alloy with 10mol% of replacement copper was
good and that this maybe a useful method of reducing the
quantity of nickel in Ti-Ni based alloy."
===

From Mat-world:

Titanium Nickel Alloy
TiNi Alloy
Ti-Ni (50:50 wt%)
Ingots, Wires, Sputtering Target, Sheet, Plate, Disk

http://www.mat-world.com/En_elements/ti.html

Maybe this is the stuff you are looking for or could use...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email



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Old May 9th 08, 01:50 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 12,540
Default Titanium Alloys?


"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 May 2008 19:34:20 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Terry Keeley" tkee(no wrote in message
...
Having the fin as thin as possible is the most important, then weight
and
strength. Looks like a heat-treated Ti alloy is in fact the best
choice,
other than some "unobtainium", LOL!

Thanks again for all your help, my goal is to travel our 330' course in
1.8 sec!


Well, good luck. Let us know how you do with it.


can you work harden titanium by hammering it to shape?


Titanium alloys in general don't work-harden very much. Some, hardly at all.
The stronger titanium alloys are hardened by precipitation hardening, much
like aluminum and the precipitation-hardening stainless steels (17-7PH,
A-386, etc.).

--
Ed Huntress




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