clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:

In rural areas it is quite common to have several thousand volts on
fences - pulsed of course, to teach the animals that the fences mean
business.


Some learn by reading.
Some learn by watching.
Some just have to pee on the electric fence themselves.

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:01:08 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 06:29:29 -0500, the renowned "Karl Townsend" wrote:

Line losses will reduce the voltage at the far end way too low
to use.

That's why we use AC voltage for distribution.

Thomas Edison never did agree with you on this issue.

Yup, and HV DC transmission has advantages over AC transmission, and
can contribute to overall system stability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC

250km undersea (Sweden to Germany) 450kVDC cable:
http://library.abb.com/GLOBAL/SCOT/SCOT245.NSF/VerityDisplay/A74338323CD88E19C1256E36003FFD7A/$File/Project%20Baltic%20Cable%20450%20kV%20MIND%20subm-.pdf

The only real advantage to these High Voltage DC Interties is that
the power grids on each end do not have to be in exact synchronization
for the systems to exchange power Normal AC transmission lines
require both ends to be following the same frequency standard.


It has to be several hundred miles before HVDC is cheaper, because
of the cost of building the converter stations at the ends. We have
one of these HVDC lines that terminates in Los Angeles and heads to
the Oregon / Washington State border region to pickup on all the
excess summer hydroelectric capacity in the region. And in the winter
when they use a lot of electric heat and the rivers are running low,
we ship power north.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie

With a HVDC Transmission line they can easily tie two different
regional grids together that are not in lock-step with each other,
since the converter plants at either end slave to their region's own
grid frequency - they can even have a gross mis-match like a 50 Hz
grid at one end and a 60 Hz grid at the other.

-- Bruce --

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:41:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 06:36:30 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:33:32 +1200, with neither quill nor qualm,
grumpyoldhori quickly quoth:

* Could I have some advice please.
* I need to get a twelve volt, 1/2 amp supply five
hundred metres up a hill.
I do have a fence a metre high made from wooden posts and
seven runs of Num eight (4 mil) galvanised steel
wire.
Is it feasible to use two of these wires to carry twelve
volts that distance ?

Sure, if you start with 110v or so. g

Time to invest in a solar charger, Grumps.


Or scrounge around for a couple spools of military surplus "field
phone" wire.

Really tough stuff and may simply be stapled to the fence posts. Will
lasts for many many years in the sun, and is easily repaired.

Though..sheep may find it tastey..no idea.

Gunner

Field wire has rather high resistance, might be higher than 4mm steel
wire. Resistance doesn't matter much with field phones because the
currents are miniscule. I think phones are designed to work with
something like 600 ohm impedance.

That wire is tough because some of the conductors are material having
considerably higher tensile strength than copper. Phos bronze maybe,
don't recall.

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:44:38 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

grumpyoldhori wrote:
Could I have some advice please.
I need to get a twelve volt, 1/2 amp supply five
hundred metres up a hill.
I do have a fence a metre high made from wooden posts and
seven runs of Num eight (4 mil) galvanised steel
wire.
Is it feasible to use two of these wires to carry twelve
volts that distance ?
Thank you.




No.

Line losses will reduce the voltage at the far end way too low
to use.

That's why we use AC voltage for distribution.

Richard

Yeah, sorta. AC actually has more line loss than DC, though the
difference would be unmeasurable at this distance and power level. AC
is used for distribution because (AC) transformers can change voltage
efficiently. High voltage power distribution results in lower line
current hence lower line loss for given size wire.

In this situation, all that's needed is enough excess voltage at the
sending end to make up for about 4 volts of line drop at 0.5 amp. A
simple regulator at the load end makes it possible to use any DC
source (18 to 24 VDC at 0.5 amp) that's readily available.

One could also use a transformer at the sending end, AC on the wires,
rectify and regulate at the load end. Doesn't matter, use whatever's
easy and readily available.

Ping Andrew in Oz (VK3BFA) for possible sources of supplies.

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 14:32:13 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Don Foreman wrote:

I figure 7.7 ohms for 1000 meters of 4 millimeter iron (steel) wire,
so drop of about 3.9 volts at 0.5 amp. I'd find a source of 16 to 24
VDC for the drive end, put a 12-volt regulator (e.g. LM7812) on the
load end. The regulator costs about a dollar. It'll need a bit of
heatsink, perhaps a piece of ally 10 cm square or so. It can be bent
as desired to fit in a space.


Don't forget the bypass capacitors for that regulator, or it will be
very unstable. Also, you need to protect it from lightning induced
surges. Transfomers at both ends would help, mut make sure they are
rated for 2500 VAC insulation. Split bobbin transformers would be a
good choice. They can be found as surplus, or salvaged from junk
equipment.

Yes, an 0.1 to 1.0 uF 50-volt bypass cap is a good idea. 30-volt TVS
(transient voltage suppressors) would handle about all induced
lightning surges.
Example: 1.5KE30
http://www.microsemi.com/datasheets/SA4-15.PDF

About 90 cents each.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:01:08 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 06:29:29 -0500, the renowned "Karl Townsend" wrote:



Line losses will reduce the voltage at the far end way too low
to use.

That's why we use AC voltage for distribution.

Thomas Edison never did agree with you on this issue.

Yup, and HV DC transmission has advantages over AC transmission, and
can contribute to overall system stability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC

250km undersea (Sweden to Germany) 450kVDC cable:
http://library.abb.com/GLOBAL/SCOT/SCOT245.NSF/VerityDisplay/A74338323CD88E19C1256E36003FFD7A/$File/Project%20Baltic%20Cable%20450%20kV%20MIND%20subm-.pdf


The only real advantage to these High Voltage DC Interties is that
the power grids on each end do not have to be in exact synchronization
for the systems to exchange power Normal AC transmission lines
require both ends to be following the same frequency standard.


Also the peak voltage equals the average voltage witch reduces the
insulation losses. And the capacity caused current is zero. Therefor the
DC line is more efficiency. But the terminal equipment is expensive

Bill K7NOM
It has to be several hundred miles before HVDC is cheaper, because
of the cost of building the converter stations at the ends. We have
one of these HVDC lines that terminates in Los Angeles and heads to
the Oregon / Washington State border region to pickup on all the
excess summer hydroelectric capacity in the region. And in the winter
when they use a lot of electric heat and the rivers are running low,
we ship power north.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie

With a HVDC Transmission line they can easily tie two different
regional grids together that are not in lock-step with each other,
since the converter plants at either end slave to their region's own
grid frequency - they can even have a gross mis-match like a 50 Hz
grid at one end and a 60 Hz grid at the other.

-- Bruce --

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:09:04 +1200, grumpyoldhori wrote:

Stephen Robinson wrote:

What is the application and estimated amount of use per day?

Running a Linksys wireless router on a hop for a
microwave link.
The output power is only 100mw. but the router draws
five watts on average to power it's board etc.
Running 24/7.
Looked at solar and running copper wire, both came
to around NZ $600
Which is why I am keen on using the steel wire if
possible.

Hi Grumpy, a trip away from NZ.gen?
I used a car battery with a solar panel charger for a gate opener, which
worked well. A car battery (or 2 in parallel for more capacity) is cheap
and easy to get and should have enough capacity to run the router for days
of darkness. The solar panel was pretty cheap as well for a smaller size,
although this was a few years ago.
It has the advantage for being portable too, so you are not stuck with
having it by a fence.

Don Foreman wrote:

Field wire has rather high resistance, might be higher than 4mm steel
wire. Resistance doesn't matter much with field phones because the
currents are miniscule. I think phones are designed to work with
something like 600 ohm impedance.

That wire is tough because some of the conductors are material having
considerably higher tensile strength than copper. Phos bronze maybe,
don't recall.

No, it's steel! The wire is all steel with a (thin) copper
plating. That does bring the resistance down, but it is still
fairly high compared to all-copper wire. But, with some luck,
you might be able to find an entire spool of this stuff that
some "army-navy" type store would let you have cheap. But, it
might not do a whole lot better than the fence wire.

Jon

Phone companies used to use copper clad steel on poles.

Maybe there is some still hanging or some in the phone yard sitting.

I'd talk to them if the phone or power company has scrap line for
this type of use. Might find so. Might find a few to help string
some of which they provide.

Even a bundle of twisted wire could be used - sets of lines in parallel.

The zinc might not be considered in the estimates either. But it leaches off.


I think myself I'd send AC - 36V at 1/3 the current and voltage drop. Then
on top convert that into the 12V. I'd limit to 36 for safety. You might
have to post flags warning of voltage present. Much like cattle fences.

Martin


Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


grumpyoldhori wrote:
Stephen Robinson wrote:

What is the application and estimated amount of use per day?

Running a Linksys wireless router on a hop for a
microwave link.
The output power is only 100mw. but the router draws
five watts on average to power it's board etc.
Running 24/7.
Looked at solar and running copper wire, both came
to around NZ $600
Which is why I am keen on using the steel wire if
possible.



----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:41:34 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner Asch quickly quoth:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 06:36:30 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:33:32 +1200, with neither quill nor qualm,
grumpyoldhori quickly quoth:

* Could I have some advice please.
* I need to get a twelve volt, 1/2 amp supply five
hundred metres up a hill.
I do have a fence a metre high made from wooden posts and
seven runs of Num eight (4 mil) galvanised steel
wire.
Is it feasible to use two of these wires to carry twelve
volts that distance ?

Sure, if you start with 110v or so. g

Time to invest in a solar charger, Grumps.


Or scrounge around for a couple spools of military surplus "field
phone" wire.

Here are eBay-NZ sources for solar panels, Grumps:
http://tinyurl.com/5bv7vr


Really tough stuff and may simply be stapled to the fence posts. Will
lasts for many many years in the sun, and is easily repaired.

I wonder: at what voltage did they run field phones?


Though..sheep may find it tastey..no idea.

And we find sheep tasty. Fair trade, wot?

--
Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance. If the dispositions
of the parties are ever so well known to each other or ever so similar
beforehand, it does not advance their felicity in the least. They always
continue to grow sufficiently unlike afterwards to have their share of
vexation; and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of
the person with whom you are to pass your life.
-- Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice, 1811

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:10:39 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 14:32:13 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Don Foreman wrote:

I figure 7.7 ohms for 1000 meters of 4 millimeter iron (steel) wire,
so drop of about 3.9 volts at 0.5 amp. I'd find a source of 16 to 24
VDC for the drive end, put a 12-volt regulator (e.g. LM7812) on the
load end. The regulator costs about a dollar. It'll need a bit of
heatsink, perhaps a piece of ally 10 cm square or so. It can be bent
as desired to fit in a space.


Don't forget the bypass capacitors for that regulator, or it will be
very unstable. Also, you need to protect it from lightning induced
surges. Transfomers at both ends would help, mut make sure they are
rated for 2500 VAC insulation. Split bobbin transformers would be a
good choice. They can be found as surplus, or salvaged from junk
equipment.

Yes, an 0.1 to 1.0 uF 50-volt bypass cap is a good idea. 30-volt TVS
(transient voltage suppressors) would handle about all induced
lightning surges.
Example: 1.5KE30
http://www.microsemi.com/datasheets/SA4-15.PDF

About 90 cents each.


I have not been following the calculations closely - but if he has 6
strands, and the resistance is 7.7 ohms per 1000 feet on single strand
- if he parallels the wires into 2 conductors of 3 seperated strands
each, the total resistance is only 7.7/3=2.56 ohms per 1000 feet.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:46:07 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

Field wire has rather high resistance, might be higher than 4mm steel
wire. Resistance doesn't matter much with field phones because the
currents are miniscule. I think phones are designed to work with
something like 600 ohm impedance.

That wire is tough because some of the conductors are material having
considerably higher tensile strength than copper. Phos bronze maybe,
don't recall.

No, it's steel! The wire is all steel with a (thin) copper
plating. That does bring the resistance down, but it is still
fairly high compared to all-copper wire. But, with some luck,
you might be able to find an entire spool of this stuff that
some "army-navy" type store would let you have cheap. But, it
might not do a whole lot better than the fence wire.

Jon


Because the mil spec stuff is thinner than heavy fence wire it would
be less effective - and he'd only have single strand instead of the
capability of using 3 parrallel strands in each direction.

Is this high tensile steel fence wire (AKA electric fence wire) or
standard fence wire. The high tensile stuff is thinner. Can't say I've
ever measured the stuff, but we used both on the farm years ago,

The old overhead phone wire that used to run from the pole to the
house used to be rubber jacketed parallel strand copper plated iron
wire. Iron wire was self supporting over 50 feet between poles and did
not expand as much and "stretch" in warm weather - or tighten in
extreme cold - as much as copper.

Saw a house (26 years ago when shopping for the one I now live in)
that had the whole rec-room wired in that stuff!!!!!!! Apparently the
former owner was a retired Bell line-man.

Called the electrical Inspection Authority on that one.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:48:45 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Phone companies used to use copper clad steel on poles.

Maybe there is some still hanging or some in the phone yard sitting.

I'd talk to them if the phone or power company has scrap line for
this type of use. Might find so. Might find a few to help string
some of which they provide.

Even a bundle of twisted wire could be used - sets of lines in parallel.

The zinc might not be considered in the estimates either. But it leaches off.


I think myself I'd send AC - 36V at 1/3 the current and voltage drop. Then
on top convert that into the 12V. I'd limit to 36 for safety. You might
have to post flags warning of voltage present. Much like cattle fences.

Martin

That'd work ... but I don't think minimizing voltage drop or
maximizing efficiency is the objective. The objective is to get 12
volts at 0.5 amp at the top of the hill. Ya just need enough push
at the bottom to overcome 4 volts or so of drop in the wire that's
already in place. A regulator at the top takes care of having a bit
more push than necessary, which makes scrounging parts much easier.

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:55:47 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



Though..sheep may find it tastey..no idea.

And we find sheep tasty. Fair trade, wot?

Speak for yerself, Larry!

Know why Scotsmen wear kilts? Because sheep can hear zippers...wham,
bam, thank you lamb!

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:55:47 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:41:34 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner Asch quickly quoth:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 06:36:30 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:33:32 +1200, with neither quill nor qualm,
grumpyoldhori quickly quoth:

* Could I have some advice please.
* I need to get a twelve volt, 1/2 amp supply five
hundred metres up a hill.
I do have a fence a metre high made from wooden posts and
seven runs of Num eight (4 mil) galvanised steel
wire.
Is it feasible to use two of these wires to carry twelve
volts that distance ?

Sure, if you start with 110v or so. g

Time to invest in a solar charger, Grumps.


Or scrounge around for a couple spools of military surplus "field
phone" wire.

Here are eBay-NZ sources for solar panels, Grumps:
http://tinyurl.com/5bv7vr


Really tough stuff and may simply be stapled to the fence posts. Will
lasts for many many years in the sun, and is easily repaired.

I wonder: at what voltage did they run field phones?

6 volts All of my field phones (modest collection) use 4 D batteries.



Though..sheep may find it tastey..no idea.

And we find sheep tasty. Fair trade, wot?


Ayup

Gunner

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Jon Elson wrote:
William Noble wrote:

the best advice you have so far is to use aprox 48VAC on one or two of
the top most wires to send the power up the hill to the router, then
convert back down to whatever you need for the router - the router
itself probably has a switching power supply that can accept inputs
from about 100 to 300VAC, so if you start out with 220 to 48
transformer at the bottom and put a matching transformer at the top,
the result will be a lower voltage that is still within the tolerance
of the router's power supply.


Many of these small net appliances use low voltage AC or DC for power,
not a wide-range AC supply. Thinking of what we call "wall warts" here
in the US. The OP indicated it needed 12 V DC.
I think he plans to supply the 12 V DC directly to the device, without
going back up to mains voltage first.

Jon

Having read allthe posts on this thread,
Im cross with myself for not thinking it earlier.
So this equipment is onthe top of a hill
It would be simpler to use some 12 volt car/truck batteries charged up
with a 12 v wind generator.
Lack of sunshine wont effect it!!.
nor darkness of night.
Nor lightning induced emf in the fence wires.
whats the average wind speed up there?
If all you want is .5 amp , then generate 2 amps for half the time will
cover any charging losses.
The smallest car 12v dc dynamo , from a Morris Minor,
I believe youve plenty of thee in NZ. with its associated Lucas
regulator and cutout.
A 3 ft dia 3 bladed prop will do.
Your local met office will have records of wind speed and direction over
several years,
o will any local airfield or gliding club.
Just a thought!!!.
Ted
Dorset
UK

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 00:24:37 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:55:47 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



Though..sheep may find it tastey..no idea.

And we find sheep tasty. Fair trade, wot?

Speak for yerself, Larry!

Know why Scotsmen wear kilts? Because sheep can hear zippers...wham,
bam, thank you lamb!

All I can say is: SHEEP LIE!

That from:

An Indian was walking down a lone desert highway with some his
animals, when he was suddenly approached by a man. Little did the
Indian know, the man was a ventriloquist with a sick sense of humor.
The man asks the indian: "Hello, may I speak to your horse?".

Indian replies "Horse no talk..."

The man looks at the horse and says "Hello horse, how are you?" to
which the horse replied "Man, this guy runs me around all, doesn't
feed me jack, makes me sleep outside... I am about to take off on this
guy!".

The Indian was astounded! He looked at the man and said "Horse no
talk before...".

The man asked the indian if he could talk to his dog. The indian
replied "Dog no talk...". The man turned to the dog and said "Hello
dog, how are you?" to which the dog replied,"Man, I chase this guy's
sheep around all day! And for what??? I sleep outside, eat a few
scraps, and get ordered around all day! I am about ready to take off
on this guy too!"

The Indian was again astounded... He said in a quivering voice
"Dog no talk before...".

The man asked the indian if he could talk to his sheep, to which the
indian replied "Sheep lie! SHEEP LIE!"


--
Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance. If the dispositions
of the parties are ever so well known to each other or ever so similar
beforehand, it does not advance their felicity in the least. They always
continue to grow sufficiently unlike afterwards to have their share of
vexation; and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of
the person with whom you are to pass your life.
-- Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice, 1811

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:21:50 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner Asch quickly quoth:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:55:47 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

And we find sheep tasty. Fair trade, wot?

Ayup

See? You knew I meant lamb chops/tasty eating.
OTOH, that sex maniac Don... titter

--
Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance. If the dispositions
of the parties are ever so well known to each other or ever so similar
beforehand, it does not advance their felicity in the least. They always
continue to grow sufficiently unlike afterwards to have their share of
vexation; and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of
the person with whom you are to pass your life.
-- Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice, 1811

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:26:32 +1200, grumpyoldhori
wrote:

clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:

Is this high tensile steel fence wire (AKA electric fence wire) or
standard fence wire. The high tensile stuff is thinner. Can't say I've
ever measured the stuff, but we used both on the farm years ago,

The old overhead phone wire that used to run from the pole to the
house used to be rubber jacketed parallel strand copper plated iron
wire. Iron wire was self supporting over 50 feet between poles and did

It is the old soft wire we call it Num 8, 4 mil (3/16-7/32 inch)
in diameter.
But it looks like these units will work with voltages of between
five and fifteen volts.
Current draw is less than that published, around .290 of an amp
at twelve volts.

OK. The wire is the HEAVY stuff. Approx 0.21 inch diameter. ANd you
have 6 of them. You will be well under 1 ohm per thousand feet and .29
amp current draw? Throw 12 volts on the bottom end and go for it -
with each side sharing 3 wires you won't notice the voltage drop at
all. Just be ABSOLUTELY SURE to get some kind of effective spike
control on the wire to protect against lightning interference.

see: http://www.uwrf.edu/grazing/lightning.pdf
http://www.nemtek.co.za/PDF/SingleZoneLightningKit.pdf
http://kencove.com/oa/pdf/P31_32.pdf


Then on both the supply and load end, put a honking big 16 - 24 volt
zener across the line to clamp the voltage.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 02:51:03 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:21:50 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner Asch quickly quoth:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:55:47 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

And we find sheep tasty. Fair trade, wot?

Ayup

See? You knew I meant lamb chops/tasty eating.
OTOH, that sex maniac Don... titter

Oh, screw ewe!

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:32:50 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 02:51:03 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:21:50 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner Asch quickly quoth:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:55:47 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

And we find sheep tasty. Fair trade, wot?

Ayup

See? You knew I meant lamb chops/tasty eating.
OTOH, that sex maniac Don... titter

Oh, screw ewe!

Baaaaahd! Really Baaaaaaahd, Don.

--
Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance. If the dispositions
of the parties are ever so well known to each other or ever so similar
beforehand, it does not advance their felicity in the least. They always
continue to grow sufficiently unlike afterwards to have their share of
vexation; and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of
the person with whom you are to pass your life.
-- Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice, 1811

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:32:50 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

Oh, screw ewe!

Baaaaahd! Really Baaaaaaahd, Don.


You should both be ashaaaamed of yourselves!


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html


Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET
with porn and junk commercial SPAM

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Been there, Installed (and removed) That, Still have the 130W
American Beauty soldering iron, and the burn scars from it have almost
faded away...

You ought know by know when the soldering iron rolls off the bench, you let
it fall

Nice write up!

Wes

PS I've been burned a few times but no scars.
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:08:04 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:32:50 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

Oh, screw ewe!

Baaaaahd! Really Baaaaaaahd, Don.


You should both be ashaaaamed of yourselves!

You mean Larry and Lambikins?

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:44:17 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot
canada wrote:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:26:32 +1200, grumpyoldhori
wrote:

clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:

Is this high tensile steel fence wire (AKA electric fence wire) or
standard fence wire. The high tensile stuff is thinner. Can't say I've
ever measured the stuff, but we used both on the farm years ago,

The old overhead phone wire that used to run from the pole to the
house used to be rubber jacketed parallel strand copper plated iron
wire. Iron wire was self supporting over 50 feet between poles and did

That is "C Rural" phone drop wire - one pair 18-1/2-gauge copper-
plated steel wire, rubber or XLPE insulation and hard rubber or XLPE
outer jacket. Meant to be placed under tension using the spiral-wrap
preformed steel dead-end grips to pull tension, you can go 300' to
400' between poles with it.

It is the old soft wire we call it Num 8, 4 mil (3/16-7/32 inch)
in diameter.
But it looks like these units will work with voltages of between
five and fifteen volts.
Current draw is less than that published, around .290 of an amp
at twelve volts.

OK. The wire is the HEAVY stuff. Approx 0.21 inch diameter. ANd you
have 6 of them. You will be well under 1 ohm per thousand feet and .29
amp current draw? Throw 12 volts on the bottom end and go for it -
with each side sharing 3 wires you won't notice the voltage drop at
all. Just be ABSOLUTELY SURE to get some kind of effective spike
control on the wire to protect against lightning interference.

see: http://www.uwrf.edu/grazing/lightning.pdf
http://www.nemtek.co.za/PDF/SingleZoneLightningKit.pdf
http://kencove.com/oa/pdf/P31_32.pdf

Then on both the supply and load end, put a honking big 16 - 24 volt
zener across the line to clamp the voltage.

And you still want the wires that will be used for power hung from
insulators. The cheap plastic standoffs for electric fence wire
should be more than adequate, they make clip-ons for steel 'T' fence
posts and nail-on for wood.

-- Bruce --

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:32:50 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

Oh, screw ewe!

Baaaaahd! Really Baaaaaaahd, Don.



You should both be ashaaaamed of yourselves!



Ya'll are all sick units.

And I don't care if it's for sex or food,
keep yer greasy hands offa my wool!


Nyah!

Richard
--
(remove the X to email)

Now just why the HELL do I have to press 1 for English?
John Wayne

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:04:23 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:32:50 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

Oh, screw ewe!

Baaaaahd! Really Baaaaaaahd, Don.



You should both be ashaaaamed of yourselves!



Ya'll are all sick units.

And I don't care if it's for sex or food,
keep yer greasy hands offa my wool!


Nyah!

Richard

Bet Larry knows how to do it with no hands. Giddyup, whoa, backup,
whoa....

Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:04:23 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:


Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:


On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:32:50 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:


Oh, screw ewe!

Baaaaahd! Really Baaaaaaahd, Don.



You should both be ashaaaamed of yourselves!



Ya'll are all sick units.

And I don't care if it's for sex or food,
keep yer greasy hands offa my wool!


Nyah!

Richard


Bet Larry knows how to do it with no hands. Giddyup, whoa, backup,
whoa....


Sick, sick, Sick.

All huminoids seem to be queer for sheep...

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:06:23 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:04:23 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

Ya'll are all sick units.

And I don't care if it's for sex or food,
keep yer greasy hands offa my wool!

Bet Larry knows how to do it with no hands. Giddyup, whoa, backup,
whoa....

You betcha. Now will you guys lay off the Single Guy jokes? You're
just jealous because we know how to switch hands and GAIN a stroke.

--
As a curmudgeon, I grok that in its entirety.
--LJ

I know this is an old post by now, but I hope you did do a test. I
didn't see where anybody took the zinc into account in their resistance
calculations. If the coating is in good shape, it might help. If it
doesn't work out that way, you could simply buy the cheapest 16 or 18
gage weather proof wire pair available and run 120vac up the hill,
putting the 12 volt supply at the top.
I suppose you could even run 24 volts ac or so up the hill on the
steel wire, then transform it to 120vac, accounting for losses, at the
top for the power supply.


Pete Stanaitis
----------------

grumpyoldhori wrote:

Could I have some advice please.
I need to get a twelve volt, 1/2 amp supply five
hundred metres up a hill.
I do have a fence a metre high made from wooden posts and
seven runs of Num eight (4 mil) galvanised steel
wire.
Is it feasible to use two of these wires to carry twelve
volts that distance ?
Thank you.

Telephone systems run at 50 volts, and cause no particular safety
problem. Likewise, power over ethernet uses ~50 volts.

In the US, the electrical code allows up to ~50 volt systems to be
handled far more simply than power systems. It think that this rule is
true worldwide.

Joe, that is not for ground level un-insulated wire is it?

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:13:43 +1200, grumpyoldhori
wrote:

Geoff wrote:

Hi Grumpy, a trip away from NZ.gen?
I used a car battery with a solar panel charger for a gate opener, which
worked well. A car battery (or 2 in parallel for more capacity) is cheap
and easy to get and should have enough capacity to run the router for days
of darkness. The solar panel was pretty cheap as well for a smaller size,

What were you powering Geoff, a WRT54 ?
We played around with solar panels but with our winter
down here we found we needed a 40 watt unit.

How windy is it there? Could you maybe supplement the solar
with a small wind generator? You probably wouldn't need
anything elaborate for this.


--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

http://otherpower.com/otherpower_wind_tips.html#design

http://otherpower.com/
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Leon Fisk wrote:

How windy is it there? Could you maybe supplement the solar
with a small wind generator? You probably wouldn't need
anything elaborate for this.


Plenty of wind, but like the solar panel it comes
back to money, the routers are only NZ $100 now.
But, either solar or wind work out at around
$800-$1000 with controller and battery.

The wires are there and cost nothing.
--
grumpy

On Apr 26, 2:33 pm, grumpyoldhori wrote:
Could I have some advice please.
I need to get a twelve volt, 1/2 amp supply five
hundred metres up a hill.
I do have a fence a metre high made from wooden posts and
seven runs of Num eight (4 mil) galvanised steel
wire.
Is it feasible to use two of these wires to carry twelve
volts that distance ?
Thank you.

Yes. But there will not be enough current available to run whatever
the thing is you want. A crude method is to bump up the bottom end
volts, then stick a constant current regulator at the top to float
charge a small battery (NICAD/SLA whatever?)- you might get only a few
milliamps, but should do it, assuming load is not constant. Google on
LM317 applications for a circuit....and stick a fuse at the bottom
lest a cow drop a short on the wires...

Naturally, as in all things technical, there will be incredibly
complicated alternatives involving heaps of planning, research, work,
and expense....

Andrew VK3BFA.


Andrew VK3BFA.

In article , Dan@ (Dan ) wrote:


Telephone systems run at 50 volts, and cause no particular safety
problem. Likewise, power over ethernet uses ~50 volts.

In the US, the electrical code allows up to ~50 volt systems to be
handled far more simply than power systems. It think that this rule is
true worldwide.

Joe, that is not for ground level un-insulated wire is it?

Well, they didn't think of that for sure, but signal wiring such as this
need not have covers over the terminals, and so on. In other words,
they don't worry that someone might touch the metal.

Joe Gwinn

grumpyoldhori wrote:

The wires are there and cost nothing.


Are there any splices?


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html


Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET
with porn and junk commercial SPAM

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Are there any splices?


Every 250 metres, but I have plenty of copper
pipe the right size for making up jumpers
--
grumpy

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:31:11 +1200, with neither quill nor qualm,
grumpyoldhori quickly quoth:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Are there any splices?


Every 250 metres, but I have plenty of copper
pipe the right size for making up jumpers

See www.harborfreight.com and look for item 95000.
$80USD for 12-18v (18-24v?) .4A solar panel + s/h Down Under.

--
As a curmudgeon, I grok that in its entirety.
--LJ

grumpyoldhori wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Are there any splices?


Every 250 metres, but I have plenty of copper
pipe the right size for making up jumpers


What good will that do? Zink & copper out in the weather is worse
than just zinc to zinc.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html


Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET
with porn and junk commercial SPAM

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm