Hello all,

It appears that my news server and reader were not happy with each
other. Unless I miss my guess, Earthlink's server screwed up, and
Thunderbird failed to gracefully recover. No doubt Google will help
fill the gap.

The machine looks great, but Enco had indeed told me to expect 10 tpi
screws on the cross and compound - in email. I called on Wednesday and
responded in email yesterday; they appear to be chewing on it. They
were upfront in saying that I have 30 days to return the machine, and so
far have claimed that replacement screws are not an option. On the
phone the tech hinted that this might have been and unexpected design
change, and an exchange for an "old one" might be an option, he returned
my call (faster than) as promised and recanted, saying the machine has
always had 8 tpi screws. No offense to the tech, I am not completely
convinced I buy that last part.

Note that I am convinced that the tech who sent the original emails did
so in good faith; he was communicating with someone else who appears to
have made the real mistake of confirming the erroneous.

If there are indeed 10 tpi options, I consider that the way to go.
Let's assume that the original data they provided was nonsense and that
the machine has always had 0.125 dials. The question is what to do:
return an otherwise great buy, or live with the dials?

As I told Enco, if this had happened on a mill ("Oh, I KNOW those are
0.1" - sorry, he really did say that, apparently not appreciating the
irony, but I digress) I would be seriously mad. I work manually, and
(thanks to you guys) have gotten pretty good at it. Being able to
dimension from zero and pick off the last two numbers as a dial reading
is not something I will give up: 0.1 or 0.2 dials are a must on a mill.

But what about a lathe? Staring at the thing, the carriage motion
appears to be course (0.02" gradations), so the precision would appear
to happen on the cross and compound. It looks like a world of working
"against the dials" by measuring and removing metal until the part is
(hopefullyg) staring back at me, as opposed to zero and trust the
dials. As Harold and others worked hard to help me understand, there is
another realm of trusting the dials to rough and measure to correct, but
0.1/0.2 dials go a long way on a mill. But back to the lathe, IF I am
correct that most work will be measure and remove, how bad would 0.125
dials really be?

What would you do in my shoes? I realize that Enco has not yet
presented options, but given my newbie status with lathes, I need to get
some advice to make a good decision. It is quite possible that I might
have bought this machine knowing about the dials, but we would have a
similar conversation before I did it.

Another question I should ask: do any of you know of a 12x36 (or so)
cam-lock lathe with 0.1 dials? I did some quick checking on the Grizzly
site, and found what looks like the same basic lathe, but no mention
(that I saw) of the screw pitch. That said, their manual is GREAT and
answers many of my "why is this stuck?" kinds of questions.

BTW, I know at least some responses to this type of question lurk in
posts I have yet to see. I will start digging now that I can post again.

Thanks!

Bill

Jim,

Jim Insolo wrote:
DRO

I am certain you mean well, but it is not going to happen - I have too
much else to do with the difference in price, and I am convinced that I
have learned a hell of a lot by doing things "the hard way" (not that it
is all that hard) on a mill. Calipers and a long-travel indicator? Sure.

Bill

DRO

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
m...
Hello all,

It appears that my news server and reader were not happy with each
other. Unless I miss my guess, Earthlink's server screwed up, and
Thunderbird failed to gracefully recover. No doubt Google will help
fill the gap.

The machine looks great, but Enco had indeed told me to expect 10 tpi
screws on the cross and compound - in email. I called on Wednesday and
responded in email yesterday; they appear to be chewing on it. They
were upfront in saying that I have 30 days to return the machine, and so
far have claimed that replacement screws are not an option. On the
phone the tech hinted that this might have been and unexpected design
change, and an exchange for an "old one" might be an option, he returned
my call (faster than) as promised and recanted, saying the machine has
always had 8 tpi screws. No offense to the tech, I am not completely
convinced I buy that last part.

Note that I am convinced that the tech who sent the original emails did
so in good faith; he was communicating with someone else who appears to
have made the real mistake of confirming the erroneous.

If there are indeed 10 tpi options, I consider that the way to go.
Let's assume that the original data they provided was nonsense and that
the machine has always had 0.125 dials. The question is what to do:
return an otherwise great buy, or live with the dials?

As I told Enco, if this had happened on a mill ("Oh, I KNOW those are
0.1" - sorry, he really did say that, apparently not appreciating the
irony, but I digress) I would be seriously mad. I work manually, and
(thanks to you guys) have gotten pretty good at it. Being able to
dimension from zero and pick off the last two numbers as a dial reading
is not something I will give up: 0.1 or 0.2 dials are a must on a mill.

But what about a lathe? Staring at the thing, the carriage motion
appears to be course (0.02" gradations), so the precision would appear
to happen on the cross and compound. It looks like a world of working
"against the dials" by measuring and removing metal until the part is
(hopefullyg) staring back at me, as opposed to zero and trust the
dials. As Harold and others worked hard to help me understand, there is
another realm of trusting the dials to rough and measure to correct, but
0.1/0.2 dials go a long way on a mill. But back to the lathe, IF I am
correct that most work will be measure and remove, how bad would 0.125
dials really be?

What would you do in my shoes? I realize that Enco has not yet
presented options, but given my newbie status with lathes, I need to get
some advice to make a good decision. It is quite possible that I might
have bought this machine knowing about the dials, but we would have a
similar conversation before I did it.

Another question I should ask: do any of you know of a 12x36 (or so)
cam-lock lathe with 0.1 dials? I did some quick checking on the Grizzly
site, and found what looks like the same basic lathe, but no mention
(that I saw) of the screw pitch. That said, their manual is GREAT and
answers many of my "why is this stuck?" kinds of questions.

BTW, I know at least some responses to this type of question lurk in
posts I have yet to see. I will start digging now that I can post again.

Thanks!

Bill

Bill,

I think the 8 TPI screws are a non-issue on a lathe. I find I just
eyeball the cuts until I'm somewhat oversize, then with a digital caliper
zeroed on the size I want, measure how much more to remove. Thats when the
dials are used. Of course one lathe has very poor dials with a 5 tpi
crosslide and an 8 tpi topslide, the other lathe is something like 60 thou
per revolution for both.
On a lathe, I don't think you will find that you need to make large
movements on the dials, just small ones. Hope this helps,

Wayne Sippola

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
news
Jim,

Jim Insolo wrote:
DRO

I am certain you mean well, but it is not going to happen - I have too
much else to do with the difference in price, and I am convinced that I
have learned a hell of a lot by doing things "the hard way" (not that it
is all that hard) on a mill. Calipers and a long-travel indicator? Sure.

Bill

Wayne,

I think the 8 TPI screws are a non-issue on a lathe. I find I just
eyeball the cuts until I'm somewhat oversize, then with a digital caliper
zeroed on the size I want, measure how much more to remove. Thats when the
dials are used. Of course one lathe has very poor dials with a 5 tpi
crosslide and an 8 tpi topslide, the other lathe is something like 60 thou
per revolution for both.

60 thou!!!! How big is the lathe? What kind of work was it designed
to do?


On a lathe, I don't think you will find that you need to make large
movements on the dials, just small ones. Hope this helps,

It does indeed. To be fair to myself, I am going to look around again,
as well as ask here if anyone knows of 10 tpi machine in the general
size of 12x36. It might be that such a beast does not exist. Failing
an obvious better deal, I expect to keep the machine. Certainly there
is nothing to gain by beating up on Enco and then buying the same
blasted thing from elsewhere.

Not that I will go this way, what does a DRO on a lathe instrument? Is
it just the carriage and cross travel?

Thanks!

Bill

On Fri, 4 Apr 2008 08:09:44 -0600, "Wayne S"
wrote:

Bill,

I think the 8 TPI screws are a non-issue on a lathe.

And Monarch seems to agree. Despite its 8 pitch cross-slide screw, the
10EE is considered one of the finest small toolroom lathes ever made.

Though, personally, I prefer my Taiwanese HLVH with 10TPI screws. (I
can't resist an opportunity to tweak Karl Townsend g).

--
Ned Simmons

Bill Schwab wrote:
Wayne,

I think the 8 TPI screws are a non-issue on a lathe. I find I just
eyeball the cuts until I'm somewhat oversize, then with a digital
caliper
zeroed on the size I want, measure how much more to remove. Thats
when the
dials are used. Of course one lathe has very poor dials with a 5 tpi
crosslide and an 8 tpi topslide, the other lathe is something like 60
thou
per revolution for both.

60 thou!!!! How big is the lathe? What kind of work was it
designed to do?


On a lathe, I don't think you will find that you need to make large
movements on the dials, just small ones. Hope this helps,

It does indeed. To be fair to myself, I am going to look around
again, as well as ask here if anyone knows of 10 tpi machine in the
general size of 12x36. It might be that such a beast does not exist.
Failing an obvious better deal, I expect to keep the machine.
Certainly there is nothing to gain by beating up on Enco and then
buying the same blasted thing from elsewhere.
Both my Kerry 1140 (11" x 40") and Harrison M300 (13" x 40") are 10TPI
machines. The Kerry has the dial marked for radius and the Harrison
diameter although the Harrison is fitted with a DRO so the dial is
rarely used.


Not that I will go this way, what does a DRO on a lathe instrument?
Is it just the carriage and cross travel?

Thanks!

Bill

On Apr 4, 7:39*am, Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all,

It appears that my news server and reader were not happy with each
other. *Unless I miss my guess, Earthlink's server screwed up, and
Thunderbird failed to gracefully recover. *No doubt Google will help
fill the gap.

The machine looks great, but Enco had indeed told me to expect 10 tpi
screws on the cross and compound - in email. *I called on Wednesday and
responded in email yesterday; they appear to be chewing on it. *They
were upfront in saying that I have 30 days to return the machine, and so
far have claimed that replacement screws are not an option. *On the
phone the tech hinted that this might have been and unexpected design
change, and an exchange for an "old one" might be an option, he returned
my call (faster than) as promised and recanted, saying the machine has
always had 8 tpi screws. *No offense to the tech, I am not completely
convinced I buy that last part.

Note that I am convinced that the tech who sent the original emails did
so in good faith; he was communicating with someone else who appears to
have made the real mistake of confirming the erroneous.

If there are indeed 10 tpi options, I consider that the way to go.
Let's assume that the original data they provided was nonsense and that
the machine has always had 0.125 dials. *The question is what to do:
return an otherwise great buy, or live with the dials?

As I told Enco, if this had happened on a mill ("Oh, I KNOW those are
0.1" - sorry, he really did say that, apparently not appreciating the
irony, but I digress) I would be seriously mad. *I work manually, and
(thanks to you guys) have gotten pretty good at it. *Being able to
dimension from zero and pick off the last two numbers as a dial reading
is not something I will give up: 0.1 or 0.2 dials are a must on a mill.

But what about a lathe? *Staring at the thing, the carriage motion
appears to be course (0.02" gradations), so the precision would appear
to happen on the cross and compound. *It looks like a world of working
"against the dials" by measuring and removing metal until the part is
(hopefullyg) staring back at me, as opposed to zero and trust the
dials. *As Harold and others worked hard to help me understand, there is
another realm of trusting the dials to rough and measure to correct, but
0.1/0.2 dials go a long way on a mill. *But back to the lathe, IF I am
correct that most work will be measure and remove, how bad would 0.125
dials really be?

What would you do in my shoes? *I realize that Enco has not yet
presented options, but given my newbie status with lathes, I need to get
some advice to make a good decision. *It is quite possible that I might
have bought this machine knowing about the dials, but we would have a
similar conversation before I did it.

Another question I should ask: do any of you know of a 12x36 (or so)
cam-lock lathe with 0.1 dials? *I did some quick checking on the Grizzly
site, and found what looks like the same basic lathe, but no mention
(that I saw) of the screw pitch. *That said, their manual is GREAT and
answers many of my "why is this stuck?" kinds of questions.

BTW, I know at least some responses to this type of question lurk in
posts I have yet to see. *I will start digging now that I can post again..

Thanks!

Bill


I think this is a non-issue. As long as the dials read correctly in
inches, or 1,000 of an inch does it make a differance? I've owned
old old Southbends and now a newer Emco, and you work to measurements
at to what you are turning. Worn out or metric dials would be a
problem, but old time machinests a 100 years ago or so, produced
excellect work using what they had. Sure I set the crossfeed dial
at .020 and plan on it being close, but when I get down below .010 or
so for a finish cut I'm very carefull.

I'm assuming that you also have both a threading screw at 8 tpi
(which is standard) and perhaps a power feed , which is just a hex bar
on mine driving the apron/ carriage assy by a gear. I'm sure with the
8 tpi screw and gearbox you can cut standard and perhaps even metric
threads. BG in Iowa

On Apr 4, 4:39 am, Bill Schwab wrote:
Another question I should ask: do any of you know of a 12x36 (or so)
cam-lock lathe with 0.1 dials? I did some quick checking on the Grizzly
site, and found what looks like the same basic lathe, but no mention
(that I saw) of the screw pitch. That said, their manual is GREAT and
answers many of my "why is this stuck?" kinds of questions.

Bill

Bill,
My Griz 4003 has a 10 pitch screw on the cross slide, and is marked as
radius. The compound and tailstock is also a 10 TPI. The saddle is
marked as .010", with numbers at .100" intervals. However, for .100"
indicated, it actually moves ~.099". But this is also compounded by
the fact that one revolution is NOT an even number of anything, but is
marked as .660". It's actually .652" (as measured over 10
revolutions).

IMHO, having ..250" off the diameter is no different than .200" when
cranking to a setpoint.

If you are looking at the Griz 4003G manual, yep, that's a good one.

Dave

BG,

wrote:

I think this is a non-issue. As long as the dials read correctly in
inches, or 1,000 of an inch does it make a differance?

I lack enough lathe experience to make that call, hence the question. I
_would_ make a difference to me on a mill, but the answers are running
in the measure/remove direction, and my best guess looking at the
machine is that I would end up doing precisely that.

Why do I care about 0.1 (0.2) on a mill? I dimension from zero, and
thanks to my 0.1 dials, make (another poster's insightful term) large
movements with the dials to get into the right range, and then pick up
the last two digits as the dial reading. After some thought, I realized
that a mill with 0.2 dials would allow the same trick as long as my
eyeballing is good to the "correct tenth." On edge finding, I would set
the dial to 100 and be happy.

Again, that's on a mill. On a lathe, it seems unlikely to have one
zeroing cover all, especially longitudinally. Using the dials only for
small corrections, 0.125 dials would probably not bother me.

Also, the machine looks great, the price was attractive, and it is in my
garage and perched on its stand. The question I have to ask myself is
whether I would have bought it had I known up front about the dials?



I've owned
old old Southbends and now a newer Emco, and you work to measurements
at to what you are turning. Worn out or metric dials would be a
problem, but old time machinests a 100 years ago or so, produced
excellect work using what they had. Sure I set the crossfeed dial
at .020 and plan on it being close, but when I get down below .010 or
so for a finish cut I'm very carefull.

Understood. With a measure/correct approach, the dials should be fine.

Another option would be (just guessing) to zero either by touching
something of known diameter (seems sketchy) or by turning something
small and measuring the result. Any other tricks?? Regardless, I could
then dimension from multiples of 1/8" in the correct direction to have
the dial readings be obvious from the drawing. That assumes that most
shapes would be simple (not true on a mill) so I would be doing such
craziness for only a few different diameters.

The above might sound silly, but I figured out a similar trick on a
mill, and it worked wonderfully. The problem was to use a boring head
to take a divot out of the top and bottom surfaces of a square tube; the
sides were to remain untouched. By drawing a line a few inches in
negative-x from the tube, I was able to dimension the location of the
center of the boring head to make the cut. It has been a while, but I
probably set the head by cutting scrap to get the 2.010" or whatever it
was that I needed. With that done, it was just a matter of eyeballing
the head location and trusting the dial.


I'm assuming that you also have both a threading screw at 8 tpi
(which is standard) and perhaps a power feed , which is just a hex bar
on mine driving the apron/ carriage assy by a gear. I'm sure with the
8 tpi screw and gearbox you can cut standard and perhaps even metric
threads. BG in Iowa

I'll brag about the lathe a little. It uses a slot in a separate shaft
for carriage and cross feed; AFAICT, the screw is used only when
threading, which is the right way to do it.

It is primarily imperial (which is what I wanted), and will cut some
metric threads with change gears. I barely understood a word of itg,
but last fall somebody mentioned that with the change gears, I should
expect to have some trouble chasing threads, but that it can be done. I
look forward to someday understanding what I just said

Again, the question now is whether I would have bought this machine
given correct data. Since it sounds like the 0.125 dials are not a
serious hassle, I will probably conclude that I saved enough money and
got a good enough machine that I probably should just keep it. If
however, I find a 0.1 machine for similar money, I might owe it to
myself to get what I thought I was buying.

Thanks!!

Bill

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 09:29:32 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:


Though, personally, I prefer my Taiwanese HLVH with 10TPI screws. (I
can't resist an opportunity to tweak Karl Townsend g).


My Hardinge HLVH is .200 per rev.

G

Gunner

On Apr 4, 8:39*am, Bill Schwab wrote:
.....But back to the lathe, IF I am
correct that most work will be measure and remove, how bad would 0.125
dials really be?.....
Bill

My first Sears lathe has 24TPI leadscrews, 0.04167" / rev. It didn't
originally have dials. I made some but found out I really didn't need
them.

I don't depend on the crossfeed or compound dials for 0.001" accuracy
over a long distance very often because the SB lathe has too much give
on a heavy cut. The procedure that gives good results is rough to
within about 0.010", [stone the bit], take a few thousandths finish
cut and measure, then another about 0.002" over final size and check
carefully for taper etc. From there it's honed broad-nosed tools,
filing, fine sandpaper, whatever it takes to make the part good enough
to work.

I take quick measurements with a dial caliper while roughing and only
use a slower mike for the finish cuts. This is a good use for a -
cheap- dial caliper since it might be damaged by chips.

0.125" dials would be slightly more annoying when roughing off a lot
of steel. I take a skim cut and zero the dial, then go in 0.050" per
pass and count down 0.100" off the diameter, remembering where to
stop. It's 0.025" for stainless, 0.100" for aluminum only because the
numbers are easy.

Those are for a 10" leather-belt-drive lathe, BTW. Maybe you could use
0.062" and count 1/8"? You're OK as long as you stop in time, so do
whatever your mental math skills allow, then measure.

I do use the dials to measure infeed for threading but it's less than
a full turn for 8TPI and finer.

Jim Wilkins

I know you said that you didn't want a DRO, but I have one on my old
mill and I haven't looked at the dials (except Z) since. So, if you do
get stuck with the 8 TPI, that's what I'd do.
It's not a "great deal" if it isn't what you want.

Pete Stanaitis
-----------------

Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all,

It appears that my news server and reader were not happy with each
other. Unless I miss my guess, Earthlink's server screwed up, and
Thunderbird failed to gracefully recover. No doubt Google will help
fill the gap.

The machine looks great, but Enco had indeed told me to expect 10 tpi
screws on the cross and compound - in email. I called on Wednesday and
responded in email yesterday; they appear to be chewing on it. They
were upfront in saying that I have 30 days to return the machine, and so
far have claimed that replacement screws are not an option. On the
phone the tech hinted that this might have been and unexpected design
change, and an exchange for an "old one" might be an option, he returned
my call (faster than) as promised and recanted, saying the machine has
always had 8 tpi screws. No offense to the tech, I am not completely
convinced I buy that last part.

Note that I am convinced that the tech who sent the original emails did
so in good faith; he was communicating with someone else who appears to
have made the real mistake of confirming the erroneous.

If there are indeed 10 tpi options, I consider that the way to go. Let's
assume that the original data they provided was nonsense and that the
machine has always had 0.125 dials. The question is what to do: return
an otherwise great buy, or live with the dials?

As I told Enco, if this had happened on a mill ("Oh, I KNOW those are
0.1" - sorry, he really did say that, apparently not appreciating the
irony, but I digress) I would be seriously mad. I work manually, and
(thanks to you guys) have gotten pretty good at it. Being able to
dimension from zero and pick off the last two numbers as a dial reading
is not something I will give up: 0.1 or 0.2 dials are a must on a mill.

But what about a lathe? Staring at the thing, the carriage motion
appears to be course (0.02" gradations), so the precision would appear
to happen on the cross and compound. It looks like a world of working
"against the dials" by measuring and removing metal until the part is
(hopefullyg) staring back at me, as opposed to zero and trust the
dials. As Harold and others worked hard to help me understand, there is
another realm of trusting the dials to rough and measure to correct, but
0.1/0.2 dials go a long way on a mill. But back to the lathe, IF I am
correct that most work will be measure and remove, how bad would 0.125
dials really be?

What would you do in my shoes? I realize that Enco has not yet
presented options, but given my newbie status with lathes, I need to get
some advice to make a good decision. It is quite possible that I might
have bought this machine knowing about the dials, but we would have a
similar conversation before I did it.

Another question I should ask: do any of you know of a 12x36 (or so)
cam-lock lathe with 0.1 dials? I did some quick checking on the Grizzly
site, and found what looks like the same basic lathe, but no mention
(that I saw) of the screw pitch. That said, their manual is GREAT and
answers many of my "why is this stuck?" kinds of questions.

BTW, I know at least some responses to this type of question lurk in
posts I have yet to see. I will start digging now that I can post again.

Thanks!

Bill

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 08:39:03 -0400, Bill Schwab
wrote:


If there are indeed 10 tpi options, I consider that the way to go.
Let's assume that the original data they provided was nonsense and that
the machine has always had 0.125 dials. The question is what to do:
return an otherwise great buy, or live with the dials?

That would drive you nuts the entire time you owned that lathe.

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 08:39:03 -0400, Bill Schwab
wrote:



If there are indeed 10 tpi options, I consider that the way to go.
Let's assume that the original data they provided was nonsense and that
the machine has always had 0.125 dials. The question is what to do:
return an otherwise great buy, or live with the dials?

I responded too quickly. If the dials agree with the pitch, 8tpi vs
10tpi is about a non-issue. One might "trust the dials" on a mill,
but one trusts the micrometer at the lathe.

Ned Simmons wrote:
On Fri, 4 Apr 2008 08:09:44 -0600, "Wayne S"
wrote:

Bill,

I think the 8 TPI screws are a non-issue on a lathe.

And Monarch seems to agree. Despite its 8 pitch cross-slide screw, the
10EE is considered one of the finest small toolroom lathes ever made.

Though, personally, I prefer my Taiwanese HLVH with 10TPI screws. (I
can't resist an opportunity to tweak Karl Townsend g).

Is that a Sharp by any chance?

I saw one a few years ago and was impressed.
Beautifully built. I want one.

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:27:46 -0400, Bill Schwab
wrote:



Again, the question now is whether I would have bought this machine
given correct data. Since it sounds like the 0.125 dials are not a
serious hassle, I will probably conclude that I saved enough money and
got a good enough machine that I probably should just keep it. If
however, I find a 0.1 machine for similar money, I might owe it to
myself to get what I thought I was buying.

Thanks!!

My "take" on this is that if you like everything else about the
machine, .125 dials and 8-pitch screws are immaterial. I think a DRO
is about indispensible on a mill (sorry, Harold) but I don't have one
on my lathe nor lust for one. I only use the dials on a lathe for
rough cuts and small increments anyway; the truth is in the calipers
for roughing and micrometer when getting close. I use the fine
gradations on the dial to move in a thou or two when "on final" but
those would be thou on either type of dial.

The dials are seldom right anway, except perhaps when using carbide on
stainless, and mine is a fairly large and rigid machine -- a 15x50
weighing at least a ton. The mike is always right.

It's often rather awkward to measure in-process on a mill, usually
quite easy on a lathe.

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:35:35 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ned Simmons wrote:


Though, personally, I prefer my Taiwanese HLVH with 10TPI screws. (I
can't resist an opportunity to tweak Karl Townsend g).

Is that a Sharp by any chance?

I saw one a few years ago and was impressed.
Beautifully built. I want one.

It's a Feeler.
http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmons/news/Feeler05.JPG

I've heard discussions about the relative merits of Feeler vs. Sharp,
but I'm not sure it's anything more than a Ford - Chevy thing. I can't
find much fault with this lathe, and haven't seen a Hardinge for any
less than $15K (which is 10X what I paid) that I'd trade for.

The only problem I've had is the feed motor was intermittent when I
got it. There were a couple open connections to the commutator, which
I was able to repair. I think I've seen new machines that were
advertised as having a Bodine feed motor, like the Hardinges, so this
may be a common problem.

It'd be interesting to know how many actual mfrs of these knockoffs
there are. I've seen them branded Sharp, Feeler, Vectrax (MSC's house
brand), Wilton, Ganesh (despite the unfortunate choice of an Indian
name, it's apparently Taiwanese), and probably a couple others.

--
Ned Simmons

Bill Schwab writes:

Let's assume that the original data they provided was nonsense and
that the machine has always had 0.125 dials.

It was and it always did.

I own this lathe. I use it every day. This lathe is a friend of mine.
It turns metal from base-priced stock to parts worth literally their
weight in gold (at least in the stuff I make with it).

The 1/8 dials are really a very slight consideration. If you're not a
whiz at arithmetic-in-your-head, or at least not reliable enough that
you can trust hours of work invested in a part to getting it certainly
right, then you do what I do:

You are dimensioning the process cuts on your drawings, right? Not just
finished sizes? When you have a process step like a feed of 0.456, then
you do the calculation and pencil it next to that dimension as "3t +
0.081" for 3 full turns plus another 0.081. Now it's a slight chore to
make that conversion from decimal inches to full turns plus a decimal
remainder. Very slight.

One of the principles of metalworking is the discipline to draw and
dimension things properly and fully. Otherwise you can't make anything
better than what you can conceive in precise detail in your head, which
isn't much. And these dimensions are almost as easily rendered as units
of 1/8 turn versus 1/10 turn.

Now I did finally upgrade to a DRO, but that was a matter of improving
productivity, not capability. The DRO lets you set up faster, and
reduces the risk of error that wastes a time-invested part, but it is
all possible with dials, even if they're calibrated in microfurlongs.

I suspect your missing component is just a pencil.

Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all,

It appears that my news server and reader were not happy with each
other. Unless I miss my guess, Earthlink's server screwed up, and
Thunderbird failed to gracefully recover. No doubt Google will help
fill the gap.

The machine looks great, but Enco had indeed told me to expect 10 tpi
screws on the cross and compound - in email. I called on Wednesday and
responded in email yesterday; they appear to be chewing on it. They
were upfront in saying that I have 30 days to return the machine, and so
far have claimed that replacement screws are not an option. On the
phone the tech hinted that this might have been and unexpected design
change, and an exchange for an "old one" might be an option, he returned
my call (faster than) as promised and recanted, saying the machine has
always had 8 tpi screws. No offense to the tech, I am not completely
convinced I buy that last part.

Note that I am convinced that the tech who sent the original emails did
so in good faith; he was communicating with someone else who appears to
have made the real mistake of confirming the erroneous.

If there are indeed 10 tpi options, I consider that the way to go. Let's
assume that the original data they provided was nonsense and that the
machine has always had 0.125 dials. The question is what to do: return
an otherwise great buy, or live with the dials?

As I told Enco, if this had happened on a mill ("Oh, I KNOW those are
0.1" - sorry, he really did say that, apparently not appreciating the
irony, but I digress) I would be seriously mad. I work manually, and
(thanks to you guys) have gotten pretty good at it. Being able to
dimension from zero and pick off the last two numbers as a dial reading
is not something I will give up: 0.1 or 0.2 dials are a must on a mill.

But what about a lathe? Staring at the thing, the carriage motion
appears to be course (0.02" gradations), so the precision would appear
to happen on the cross and compound. It looks like a world of working
"against the dials" by measuring and removing metal until the part is
(hopefullyg) staring back at me, as opposed to zero and trust the
dials. As Harold and others worked hard to help me understand, there is
another realm of trusting the dials to rough and measure to correct, but
0.1/0.2 dials go a long way on a mill. But back to the lathe, IF I am
correct that most work will be measure and remove, how bad would 0.125
dials really be?

How many grauations on the cross feed inch dial?

Thanks!

Bill

Tom

lots of snippage about the difference between an 8tpi lead screw and a
10tpi leadscrew on a crossslide

Bill...

....take this for what it's worth and with all the care I am able to work
up...deal with it.

There have ALWAYS been different pitchs on cross slides and and you will get
used to the fact the the lathe and mill are different really fast!

It's not any different than the fact that I have 5 machines that I program
at work and all five have different langauges...to this day, any scrap has
been MY bad, not the switching of programming langauges...exactly the same
effect with the 8 vs. 10 leadscrew. You'll use one, then use the other and
never the twain shall meet.

Mike

On 2008-04-04, Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all,

It appears that my news server and reader were not happy with each
other. Unless I miss my guess, Earthlink's server screwed up, and
Thunderbird failed to gracefully recover. No doubt Google will help
fill the gap.

Oops!

The machine looks great, but Enco had indeed told me to expect 10 tpi
screws on the cross and compound - in email. I called on Wednesday and
responded in email yesterday; they appear to be chewing on it. They
were upfront in saying that I have 30 days to return the machine, and so
far have claimed that replacement screws are not an option. On the
phone the tech hinted that this might have been and unexpected design
change, and an exchange for an "old one" might be an option, he returned
my call (faster than) as promised and recanted, saying the machine has
always had 8 tpi screws. No offense to the tech, I am not completely
convinced I buy that last part.

[ ... ]

But what about a lathe? Staring at the thing, the carriage motion
appears to be course (0.02" gradations),

You mean the longitudinal motion? I'm not used to having *any*
graduations on that -- except on the Unimat SL-1000 which had only a
hand-cranked full-length leadscrew.

so the precision would appear
to happen on the cross and compound. It looks like a world of working
"against the dials" by measuring and removing metal until the part is
(hopefullyg) staring back at me, as opposed to zero and trust the
dials. As Harold and others worked hard to help me understand, there is
another realm of trusting the dials to rough and measure to correct, but
0.1/0.2 dials go a long way on a mill. But back to the lathe, IF I am
correct that most work will be measure and remove, how bad would 0.125
dials really be?

What would you do in my shoes? I realize that Enco has not yet
presented options, but given my newbie status with lathes, I need to get
some advice to make a good decision. It is quite possible that I might
have bought this machine knowing about the dials, but we would have a
similar conversation before I did it.

Hmm ... does the set of possible threads include 10 TPI?
Perhaps you could *make* replacement leadscrews and nuts to fit it.

Another question I should ask: do any of you know of a 12x36 (or so)
cam-lock lathe with 0.1 dials? I did some quick checking on the Grizzly
site, and found what looks like the same basic lathe, but no mention
(that I saw) of the screw pitch. That said, their manual is GREAT and
answers many of my "why is this stuck?" kinds of questions.

Well ... IIRC, the Jet from back around 1990 or so had the same
threads, so I suspect that they *all* come with either these threads ore
metric threads on the leadscrews.

BTW, I know at least some responses to this type of question lurk in
posts I have yet to see. I will start digging now that I can post again.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
m...
snip

What would you do in my shoes? I realize that Enco has not yet presented
options, but given my newbie status with lathes, I need to get some advice to
make a good decision. It is quite possible that I might have bought this
machine knowing about the dials, but we would have a similar conversation
before I did it.

Just get .1 dials and put them on your existing screws!

Some lathes are .1 and some are .125. Cutting threads is the same on each,
it is only when one counts five turns in the mind... One must calculate
and figure all of the time anyway.

It might have been metric !

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Bill Schwab wrote:
Wayne,

I think the 8 TPI screws are a non-issue on a lathe. I find I just
eyeball the cuts until I'm somewhat oversize, then with a digital caliper
zeroed on the size I want, measure how much more to remove. Thats
when the
dials are used. Of course one lathe has very poor dials with a 5 tpi
crosslide and an 8 tpi topslide, the other lathe is something like 60
thou
per revolution for both.

60 thou!!!! How big is the lathe? What kind of work was it designed
to do?


On a lathe, I don't think you will find that you need to make large
movements on the dials, just small ones. Hope this helps,

It does indeed. To be fair to myself, I am going to look around again,
as well as ask here if anyone knows of 10 tpi machine in the general
size of 12x36. It might be that such a beast does not exist. Failing
an obvious better deal, I expect to keep the machine. Certainly there
is nothing to gain by beating up on Enco and then buying the same
blasted thing from elsewhere.

Not that I will go this way, what does a DRO on a lathe instrument? Is
it just the carriage and cross travel?

Thanks!

Bill




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On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:29:31 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:


It'd be interesting to know how many actual mfrs of these knockoffs
there are. I've seen them branded Sharp, Feeler, Vectrax (MSC's house
brand), Wilton, Ganesh (despite the unfortunate choice of an Indian
name, it's apparently Taiwanese), and probably a couple others.


They are all basically made by the same small group of factories, we
in the trade affectionately call The Red Dragon Noodle and Machine
Tool Collective

Gunner

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 23:03:50 -0700, Gunner
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:29:31 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:


It'd be interesting to know how many actual mfrs of these knockoffs
there are. I've seen them branded Sharp, Feeler, Vectrax (MSC's house
brand), Wilton, Ganesh (despite the unfortunate choice of an Indian
name, it's apparently Taiwanese), and probably a couple others.


They are all basically made by the same small group of factories, we
in the trade affectionately call The Red Dragon Noodle and Machine
Tool Collective

Gunner

True, but different importers and brands do set different spec and
quality standards with consequently different pricepoints.

GM makes a wide range of automobiles, Springfield offers 1911's in a
range of grades with most mfg done by Taurus in Brazil, and so on.

Bill Schwab wrote:

The machine looks great, but Enco had indeed told me to expect 10 tpi
screws on the cross and compound - in email. I called on Wednesday and
responded in email yesterday; they appear to be chewing on it. They
were upfront in saying that I have 30 days to return the machine, and so
far have claimed that replacement screws are not an option. On the
phone the tech hinted that this might have been and unexpected design
change, and an exchange for an "old one" might be an option, he returned
my call (faster than) as promised and recanted, saying the machine has
always had 8 tpi screws. No offense to the tech, I am not completely
convinced I buy that last part.

I'd just accept it and move on. I have used a lot of lathes. Each one is a
bit different and you quickly adapt to it. The diameter of your dials have
an effect too on how fine you can position the cross slide. Big ones are
nicer than small diameter ones. We are only talking 25% coarser in pitch
anyway.

Now what really irritates me is that every lathe I've used except for mine,
pulling up on the half nut lever disengages the split nuts

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 01:33:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 23:03:50 -0700, Gunner
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:29:31 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:


It'd be interesting to know how many actual mfrs of these knockoffs
there are. I've seen them branded Sharp, Feeler, Vectrax (MSC's house
brand), Wilton, Ganesh (despite the unfortunate choice of an Indian
name, it's apparently Taiwanese), and probably a couple others.


They are all basically made by the same small group of factories, we
in the trade affectionately call The Red Dragon Noodle and Machine
Tool Collective

Gunner

True, but different importers and brands do set different spec and
quality standards with consequently different pricepoints.

GM makes a wide range of automobiles, Springfield offers 1911's in a
range of grades with most mfg done by Taurus in Brazil, and so on.


Correct.

The better quality machines are made on Tuesday through Thursday.

Gunner

Martin,

It might have been metric !

True, but it would be back at their warehouse by now had that been the
case

Bill

Don,

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 08:39:03 -0400, Bill Schwab
wrote:


If there are indeed 10 tpi options, I consider that the way to go.
Let's assume that the original data they provided was nonsense and that
the machine has always had 0.125 dials. The question is what to do:
return an otherwise great buy, or live with the dials?

I responded too quickly. If the dials agree with the pitch, 8tpi vs
10tpi is about a non-issue. One might "trust the dials" on a mill,
but one trusts the micrometer at the lathe.

You gave me pause for a moment - thanks for clarifying.

Bill

Richard J Kinch wrote:
Bill Schwab writes:

Let's assume that the original data they provided was nonsense and
that the machine has always had 0.125 dials.

It was and it always did.

I own this lathe. I use it every day. This lathe is a friend of mine.
It turns metal from base-priced stock to parts worth literally their
weight in gold (at least in the stuff I make with it).

I am not surprised. It looks like a very solid machine, which is why I
took a few days to raise concerns. The news-server disconnect had
something to do with it too

As an aside, what do you say to the comments about tearing down and
cleaning to remove grit? Have you removed the top cover on the
headstock? Would you recommend removing that to check for whether a
cleaning is appropriate? Or, is it all just gears and no way to see
past them?


The 1/8 dials are really a very slight consideration. If you're not a
whiz at arithmetic-in-your-head, or at least not reliable enough that
you can trust hours of work invested in a part to getting it certainly
right, then you do what I do:

You are dimensioning the process cuts on your drawings, right?

Honest answer: I am not certain of what you mean by that. I typically
do not bother (all on my mill so far) dimensioning rough cuts, as I can
usually do the corrections on a piece of paper. For windows, I often
use a spreadsheet that takes wall locations, tool diameter and how much
metal to leave for cleanup, and creates a crude table/picture with tool
center locations. I have been known to print that and then use Harold's
+ trick for the actual work. Sometimes I skip directly to the latter.

I have no problem "over-dimensioning" as needed to make my life easier,
and I dimension consistent with how I expect to make the part.

Does that answer your question? Please fire away if there is something
I should know or a book I should read.


Not just
finished sizes? When you have a process step like a feed of 0.456, then
you do the calculation and pencil it next to that dimension as "3t +
0.081" for 3 full turns plus another 0.081. Now it's a slight chore to
make that conversion from decimal inches to full turns plus a decimal
remainder. Very slight.

Having written the above, I suspect my answer to your question might be
"no, most of the time." Maybe it is better to say that I do not
(typically) use drawings for the dimensioning. I *do* use layers to
represent tools for potentially complicated situations (RT setups,
etc.), and I think I see where you are going with respect to
dimensioning for the lathe dials.

One way to have the drawings tell me the ballpark on the dial would be
to dimension from a 1/8" grid. I recently described a boring head setup
that I dimensioned from a few inches "back" from a part specifically to
have the drawing contain the dial reading. Similar tricks would
probably work on the lathe. I could be wrong, but instead of (an
extreme example) a plate with 40 or so slots, windows, and holes
(combined), I would probably have a handful of diameters on a lathe
part, so some extra work to dimension them would not be a big deal.

However, all of this depends on a reliable zero location. Short of
chucking something of known diameter, or turning and measuring same, I
am not sure how to get such a reference. It seems it would be blown
away by any adjustment of the toolpost???


One of the principles of metalworking is the discipline to draw and
dimension things properly and fully. Otherwise you can't make anything
better than what you can conceive in precise detail in your head, which
isn't much.

That's not true - I can conceive highly intricate disasters



And these dimensions are almost as easily rendered as units
of 1/8 turn versus 1/10 turn.

Good point. I still maintain that I would not tolerate it on a mill,
but 1/8 dials are probably ok on a lathe.


Now I did finally upgrade to a DRO, but that was a matter of improving
productivity, not capability. The DRO lets you set up faster, and
reduces the risk of error that wastes a time-invested part, but it is
all possible with dials, even if they're calibrated in microfurlongs.

I suspect your missing component is just a pencil.

Understood. Thanks for the reply.

Bill

Tom,

How many grauations on the cross feed inch dial?

It and the compound are 0.125 marked at 0.001. The question is whether
that would drive me batty like it would on a mill - the answers seem to
running very much in favor of it being ok on a lathe. Please speak up
if you disagree.

Bill

Mike,

The Davenport's wrote:
lots of snippage about the difference between an 8tpi lead screw and a
10tpi leadscrew on a crossslide

Bill...

...take this for what it's worth and with all the care I am able to work
up...deal with it.




There have ALWAYS been different pitchs on cross slides and and you will get
used to the fact the the lathe and mill are different really fast!

Fair enough. My approach was to buy the smallest lathe that had a
cam-lock spindle (I expect to make a large number of interrupted cuts
and decided against a threaded spindle). At 1000 lb and the sale price,
it seemed like a good match to my needs. I have it a little backwards
in that (assuming I end up keeping it) I will have more lathe than mill,
but I found no way to put the tooling of my choice on a smaller lathe.
I also wanted to avoid seriously under-buying in this case. I expect to
buy another mill in the future, but I am still struggling with what I
want, and my current mill works well.

The point is that I know next to nothing about running a lathe - this
machine will allow me to fix that, and will hopefully provide enough
lathe to meet my needs for a long time. Given the surprise on the dial
specs, I came here for advice to enable a good keep/return decision.

Thanks!

Bill

Don,

But what about a lathe? Staring at the thing, the carriage motion
appears to be course (0.02" gradations),

You mean the longitudinal motion? I'm not used to having *any*
graduations on that --

Yes, and the markings are not of much value.


except on the Unimat SL-1000 which had only a
hand-cranked full-length leadscrew.

I assume that most lathes use a rack and worm gear to reserve the
leadscrew for threading, right???




Hmm ... does the set of possible threads include 10 TPI?
Perhaps you could *make* replacement leadscrews and nuts to fit it.

I thought of that, and it is indeed a possibility for the future.
However, given the responses in this thread, it appears that I will not
have much trouble over it. I simply did not want to tell myself that
and regret it later.



Another question I should ask: do any of you know of a 12x36 (or so)
cam-lock lathe with 0.1 dials? I did some quick checking on the Grizzly
site, and found what looks like the same basic lathe, but no mention
(that I saw) of the screw pitch. That said, their manual is GREAT and
answers many of my "why is this stuck?" kinds of questions.

Well ... IIRC, the Jet from back around 1990 or so had the same
threads, so I suspect that they *all* come with either these threads ore
metric threads on the leadscrews.

I was afraid someone would use the J-word Having had trouble with
them in the past, I doubt I would even consider a Jet machine. I _hope_
I would not even consider a Jet machine. I think I would sooner buy
another Buick. The hostility is of course *not* directed at you, and
your point is well-taken.

The Grizzly version of the lathe in question appears to be exactly the
same base with some nice looking dials and handles and some paint. I am
waiting for a response from them about the dials, but would probably
have to wonder whether they are indeed a metric "equivalent." Also, we
have Richard's "friend of mine" comment, and so far no such favorable
review of a Grizzly.

However, the question stands: if anyone knows of a true 10 tpi lathe in
the same class, I will take a look as I am doing with the Grizzly. So
far, I am leaning toward keeping the machine.

Bill

Tom,

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
m...
snip
What would you do in my shoes? I realize that Enco has not yet presented
options, but given my newbie status with lathes, I need to get some advice to
make a good decision. It is quite possible that I might have bought this
machine knowing about the dials, but we would have a similar conversation
before I did it.

Just get .1 dials and put them on your existing screws!

Let's keep the satire to a minimum: we're talking about important things
like machine tools here, not something frivolous like choosing a leader
for the free world.

Bill

Pete,

spaco wrote:
I know you said that you didn't want a DRO, but I have one on my old
mill and I haven't looked at the dials (except Z) since. So, if you do
get stuck with the 8 TPI, that's what I'd do.

It is not a question of "getting stuck" - I have the option to return
the machine. At this point, I suspect that would be a bad idea, but I
am researching options.

Just out of curiosity, what does a DRO measure on a lathe?

Bill

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
...
Pete,

spaco wrote:
I know you said that you didn't want a DRO, but I have one on my old
mill and I haven't looked at the dials (except Z) since. So, if you do
get stuck with the 8 TPI, that's what I'd do.

It is not a question of "getting stuck" - I have the option to return the
machine. At this point, I suspect that would be a bad idea, but I am
researching options.

Just out of curiosity, what does a DRO measure on a lathe?

Bill

A DRO on a lathe measures exactly what it does on a mill...that is it shows
the position relative to the zero that you establish that is usually going
to be the centerline of the spindle on the X axis and, generally, the face
of the part on the Z.

A readout can be a pretty good time saver, but if you are going to have just
one, I'd get the DRO for the mill...there are other ways to speed up the
fast cuts on a lathe.

Mike

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 09:21:59 -0400, Bill Schwab
wrote:



However, all of this depends on a reliable zero location. Short of
chucking something of known diameter, or turning and measuring same, I
am not sure how to get such a reference. It seems it would be blown
away by any adjustment of the toolpost???

Yup. A good QC toolpost as Aloris helps, but generally when a
toolchange is made then I take a light cut with the new tool, measure
the workpiece, set the dials to agree with the measurement and
proceed.

If I'm after accurate threads I'll wipe a bit of toolmaker's blue on
the work and sneak up on it with the threading tool until it "marks",
then set the dials accordingly.

I'm sure my approach is very "old school". I am an amateur, by no
means a professional machinist. That said, I would not expect the
absolute accuracy/repeatability of a CNC lathe from a
much-less-costly manual lathe. And, I imagine there's a certain
amount of "fartin' around" necessary to set up a CNC lathe for a given
job. Since I rarely make more than 1 of anything, I just do the
fartin' around along the way rather than all up front.

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
...
Tom,

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
m...
snip
What would you do in my shoes? I realize that Enco has not yet presented
options, but given my newbie status with lathes, I need to get some advice
to make a good decision. It is quite possible that I might have bought this
machine knowing about the dials, but we would have a similar conversation
before I did it.

Just get .1 dials and put them on your existing screws!

Let's keep the satire to a minimum: we're talking about important things like
machine tools here, not something frivolous like choosing a leader for the
free world.

Bill



I couldn't resist pulling your leg! However, the remark had some validity. My
dials mean nothing to me until I start getting close to where I need to be, and
then nothing when I get really, really close. I guess it depends on what the
job is but I rely on my measuring device and an intuitive twist of the screw.

"Tom Gardner" wrote:

I couldn't resist pulling your leg! However, the remark had some validity. My
dials mean nothing to me until I start getting close to where I need to be, and
then nothing when I get really, really close. I guess it depends on what the
job is but I rely on my measuring device and an intuitive twist of the screw.


My pocket scale is the ticket until we get close enough to care.

Wes